Topic: COVID-19:VERIFIED news sources, 0 politishit, 0 CONSPIRACY SHITE

[Max_powers]

I really don't see the need to mass vaccinate the entire populace against something that is only harmful to a few.

Its not harmful to just the very few. Sure the death rates are the highest in people with a lot of co-morbidities and low among younger people in good health. However, hospitalization rates are still quite high for people who don't have any co-morbidities.

If the disease keeps spreading in the general population for years to come, your tax money will go towards testing and treating all those cases for years to come, perhaps forever, since we don't know how long the natural immunity lasts.

Its way cheaper and safer if everyone was vaccinated and the disease was eradicated.

[Millie]

The reason to vaccinate as many people as possible is to protect, not only those vaccinated, but to protect those who cannot be  vaccinated (not to be confused with selfish bastards who just don't want to be vaccinated).

[Linudden]

If the disease keeps spreading in the general population for years to come, your tax money will go towards testing and treating all those cases for years to come, perhaps forever, since we don't know how long the natural immunity lasts.

I disagree. There's not really any need to do that once the vulnerable are protected. Then we can really just treat it like a seasonal virus and offer them a shot every year. If an unvaccinated, maskless, largely unimmune population like Sweden got deaths down to below 1 per day at one point because of seasonal conditions, then you already know that it's not going to be a problem anymore once we can protect the vulnerable.

Either way, the main lesson to learn is to expand the healthcare capacity so this will never even be a thing in the future. It must be equipped to handle a 10-20 % spike in demand. Otherwise it's just new public management bullshit. Politicians shouldn't be allowed to play with people's lives like that to lower hospital capacity to a point where even shutting down a society is even a question. That should be unlawful.

[Millie]

I disagree. There's not really any need to do that once the vulnerable are protected. Then we can really just treat it like a seasonal virus and offer them a shot every year. If an unvaccinated, maskless, largely unimmune population like Sweden got deaths down to below 1 per day at one point because of seasonal conditions, then you already know that it's not going to be a problem anymore once we can protect the vulnerable.

I don't think you understand the principle of vaccinating do you?

[Linudden]

I don't think you understand the principle of vaccinating do you?

The problem is - this thing ain't getting eradicated unless we close the borders for good. That's never going to happen you know. They're not going to offer it to below 18 in Sweden and they can still spread it. There will still be cases of this for many years to come regardless of how many we vaccinate. Globalized world and a lot more people around than back when the Spanish flu got extincted. It is what it is. I think I'm just pragmatic and realistic.

[Max_powers]

I might be wrong here and apologise if I am, but I think Linudden has a point. Vaccines, from my understanding, teach the body how to deal with a virus its never encountered before. Now, once everyone classed as vulnerable has been vaccinated to prevent us getting seriously ill in the future, if a non vaccinated person has a healthy immune system that can deal with the virus on its own, then is there any real reason to vaccinate everyone, isn't it better to let the body deal with it if it can? The flu vaccine isn't needed for everyone, just those at risk, yet around 12 million people a year catch the flu.

I don't know about UK but doctors here in Canada do recommend Flu vaccines for everyone. Its mandatory for healthcare workers.

Also you don't know if your body can handle it or not. A lot of people with no co-morbidities do end up getting hospitalized.

Additionally, the point of herd immunity is to stop the spread of the disease once and forever. If only the a small percent get the vaccine, the disease will continue to spread possibly forever.

[Elmo!]

The problem is - this thing ain't getting eradicated unless we close the borders for good. That's never going to happen you know. They're not going to offer it to below 18 in Sweden and they can still spread it. There will still be cases of this for many years to come regardless of how many we vaccinate. Globalized world and a lot more people around than back when the Spanish flu got extincted. It is what it is. I think I'm just pragmatic.

And that is exactly why you want a high vaccination count in your own country - so that when people bring it in from other countries... it can't spread. The more people have it, the lower the R rate.

[Linudden]

And that is exactly why you want a high vaccination count in your own country - so that when people bring it in from other countries... it can't spread. The more people have it, the lower the R rate.

Yeah good luck to those who choose to have it. If it just has an immunity guaranteed of less than a year I fail to see the point for non-vulnerable ones though. The problem with many people is that they live in a utopia where we can eliminate all deaths and all disease and it's been a large problem leading to the global reaction. When people set an unrealistic goal (say Everton to win the league) when that ain't achieved the blame game starts.

If the vaccine in ten years time saw 99 % of takers still have antibodies, then I'll put my hands up but I won't hold my breath, sadly.

[Max_powers]

The problem is - this thing ain't getting eradicated unless we close the borders for good. That's never going to happen you know. They're not going to offer it to below 18 in Sweden and they can still spread it. There will still be cases of this for many years to come regardless of how many we vaccinate. Globalized world and a lot more people around than back when the Spanish flu got extincted. It is what it is. I think I'm just pragmatic and realistic.

You are wrong and don't understand how diseases spread. Say 80% of population of Sweden is vaccinated. If a traveler from another place with Covid 19 enters and spreads it to someone in Sweden, that transmission chain will die out at 1-2 people max. It stops it from being big issue.

BTW we have almost eradicated measles. Measles is a much more contagious disease than Covid 19. There are many other examples too.

There is a global effort going on to vaccinate everyone. By 2022 I suspect there will be enough doses to vaccinate everyone in the world.

[Linudden]

BTW we have almost eradicated measles. Measles is a much more contagious disease than Covid 19. There are many other examples too.

Measles as far as I understand it is stable enough that a vaccine works for life. This is similar to a cold virus instead and is highly unstable, already leading to a ton of mutations. I understand where you're coming from but I still disagree with your assessment. It might lead to a base-level immunity such as how I appear immune to general flu after having some really bad cases back when I was a kid.

[Guz-kop]

Enters thread having barely seen a non covid patient in hospital for a month and unable to treat some young people with serious disabling conditions because of  current covid situation

[TSC]

If an unvaccinated, maskless, largely unimmune population like Sweden got deaths down to below 1 per day at one point because of seasonal conditions, then you already know that it's not going to be a problem anymore once we can protect the vulnerable.

Think your king (assume your Swedish) has it spot on as to the reason why Swedish government failed in its handling of Covid through its pursuit of herd immunity.

[Max_powers]

Measles as far as I understand it is stable enough that a vaccine works for life. This is similar to a cold virus instead and is highly unstable, already leading to a ton of mutations. I understand where you're coming from but I still disagree with your assessment.

There are mutations in every virus. There is no evidence that the vaccines are not effective against any of the Covid 19 mutations encountered so far. We don't know the length the immunity lasts, but that is only something that can be learned over time.

Of course I don't think getting a booster shot every few years is a big hassle if needed. I do that already for diseases like tetanus.

It just seems that you are just distrustful of vaccines for this particular disease for some reason, that you can't pinpoint.

[BarryCrocker]

I might be wrong here and apologise if I am, but I think Linudden has a point. Vaccines, from my understanding, teach the body how to deal with a virus its never encountered before. Now, once everyone classed as vulnerable has been vaccinated to prevent us getting seriously ill in the future, if a non vaccinated person has a healthy immune system that can deal with the virus on its own, then is there any real reason to vaccinate everyone, isn't it better to let the body deal with it if it can? The flu vaccine isn't needed for everyone, just those at risk, yet around 12 million people a year catch the flu.

What happens when the young healthy person eventually gets old and frail and the virus is still travelling around the young healthy population?

The cost of giving an injection to someone now versus ICU treatment later needs to be considered. Do we say in 20 years time that someone who refused the vaccine now should have to pay for any treatment then? Or do we just say too bad you turned down the prevention deal with it.

[Musketeer Gripweed]

My old dad got his vaccine today. First person in our local health centre to get it. First time in a long time I have felt even slightly positive.

[S]

that doesn't mean I have to take something largely untested just because RAWK says so.

Don't know if it will change your mind but I heard a rumour that scientists, and not RAWK users, are the brains behind the vaccine.

[Macphisto80]

You are wrong and don't understand how diseases spread. Say 80% of population of Sweden is vaccinated. If a traveler from another place with Covid 19 enters and spreads it to someone in Sweden, that transmission chain will die out at 1-2 people max. It stops it from being big issue.

BTW we have almost eradicated measles. Measles is a much more contagious disease than Covid 19. There are many other examples too.

There is a global effort going on to vaccinate everyone. By 2022 I suspect there will be enough doses to vaccinate everyone in the world.

It's the "contagion" or contagious aspect of this virus that a lot of the anti-vaxor, "Covid is a hoax" conspiracy theorist headcases don't get. This thing just spreads like wild fire. They're all so preoccupied with mortality rates and such, citing it being such a low number, but not realising that that low number is actually hundreds of millions of people that would be allowed to die if this thing were allowed to run rampant and unchecked through the course of whatever how many years it would stick around for. Smallpox is just a prime example to shut these fuckers up when it comes to vaccinations. Without vaccines for that, we'd be living in a different world altogether right now. They think its bad now? It'd be fuck all compared to a rampant strain of the "Pox".

[west_london_red]

Don't know if it will change your mind but I heard a rumour that scientists, and not RAWK users, are the brains behind the vaccine.

And this is the problem with this, it isn’t a debate between you and Linidden or Craig and Linudden, it’s not two people with equal but opposing views, it’s the views of the vast majority of experts and relevantly qualified professionals against a combination of a very small minority of experts and a decent (although thankfully comparatively small) minority.

[TepidT2O]

I work with about 55 colleagues.

We’ve had 4 in hospital with covid.

3 in the last month.

One in their 20s (who is there now and seems really quite poorly).  One just into their 30s and 2 in their 50s.

Anyone saying we shouldn’t vaccinate is frankly oblivious to the very real and serious long term risks to health that people face.. even people who don’t go to hospital.

[classycarra]

Sweden and Finland had the narcolepsy issue with the GSK swine flu vaccine eleven years ago. General vaccination rates for tried vaccines that have been around for decades such as against measles etc are very high but people are very reluctant over here unless they feel like the illness is going to personally affect them. Myself included.

You don't speak for the Finns and Swedes I know. You have talked in the past about being an academic. Yet here you are over-extrapolating, and projecting your views on a group and don't offer evidence to back up your assertion

As far as I'm concerned, once it's been given to the risk groups, it's time to forget worrying about covid and return straight back to February 2020 no questions asked. I really don't see the need to mass vaccinate the entire populace against something that is only harmful to a few.

What's with the denialism? And what is it about public health that exercises you in this strange way?

It's fine if you don't understand vaccination programmes, or health economics, or dynamics of herd immunity, or simple compassion. But again your phobia for confronting the reality of the pandemic is not going to be taken on by those making important decisions, despite your regular over-confident but incorrect assertions.

So I lean towards not taking it for that reason. It's better they save my dose for someone who's in more need. It's for the very reason I don't take the annual flu shot.

This is irrational and unscientific. If you want to protect those "in more need" then you should take the annual flu vaccine. Fit and well people being vaccinated against flu isn't about being personally beneficial, it's what's beneficial for 'the herd'.

Covid passports are just fascist bullshit and within an EU framework most definitely illegal so I'm not all that worried about it because it'd get struck down in court.

Again with the odd libertarian spiel more akin to social media posts. But again, it's not a surprise to see you lurch to such hyperbole even if one imagines an academic in politics would be more measured. You did after all suggest that Italian football matches being cancelled in March were akin to Mussolini's Italy

Hell, I might choose to stay in Scandinavia for the rest of my life seeing how repressive the political cultures elsewhere have been.

Your choice man, but don't be upset if people aren't surprised to read your nationalistic high horsing. It's been a running theme with a tinge of xenophobia, and played a part in many of your incorrect but overconfident assertions about what life's like in (for one example) Lombardi or using non-Swede's to blame issues there on.

You've chosen an interesting time to big up the political culture in Sweden though, given the issues in their covid response (noone has berated Sweden's politicians more than you in the last year) and the celebrating of a now-disgraced head epidemiologist in Tegnell - who preferred to delete emails and lie about his initial strategy rather than be transparent (something one expects from a 'non-repressive' policial culture).

[TepidT2O]

And this is the problem with this, it isn’t a debate between you and Linidden or Craig and Linudden, it’s not two people with equal but opposing views, it’s the views of the vast majority of experts and relevantly qualified professionals against a combination of a very small minority of experts and a decent (although thankfully comparatively small) minority.

Let’s just call them fuckwits.  Because they are.

Ignorant, blow hard, opinionated, know nothing fuckwits.

[CraigDS]

I work with about 55 colleagues.

We’ve had 4 in hospital with covid.

3 in the last month.

One in their 20s (who is there now and seems really quite poorly).  One just into their 30s and 2 in their 50s.

Anyone saying we shouldn’t vaccinate is frankly oblivious to the very real and serious long term risks to health that people face.. even people who don’t go to hospital.

Ditto this in my gf’s old school. At the very start of this one of their deputy heads, mid-40’s and no underlying health issues, caught it. Ended up on a ventilator for over 8 weeks. Had a “last chance” steroid treatment and thankfully came round. He’s still in a wheelchair, and will have life long disabilities.

[Macphisto80]

I work with about 55 colleagues.

We’ve had 4 in hospital with covid.

3 in the last month.

One in their 20s (who is there now and seems really quite poorly).  One just into their 30s and 2 in their 50s.

Anyone saying we shouldn’t vaccinate is frankly oblivious to the very real and serious long term risks to health that people face.. even people who don’t go to hospital.

Aye, I'm fit as a fiddle and it knocked me sideways for two weeks. I'm back to 100% now (or at least I think I am given that I'm back up to exercising at the usual level I'm used to without any problems). There was one day during when I had it that I thought I actually might need to go to hospital. I've had bad flu before when I was a kid that actually felt a bit worse in some symptoms, but this was something different. It just felt a bit more sinister and dangerous.

[west_london_red]

Let’s just call them fuckwits.  Because they are.

Ignorant, blow hard, opinionated, know nothing fuckwits.

I thought I’d be polite, as according to experts calling anti-vaxxers and their ilk out for their stupidity doesn’t help them change their minds unfortunately.

[Elmo!]

Let’s just call them fuckwits.  Because they are.

Ignorant, blow hard, opinionated, know nothing fuckwits.

Hey! He said no need for insults.... 

[Macphisto80]

No point piling on Linudden. He's just giving his point of view on it. It's perfectly natural to be sceptical about things if they haven't personally affected you yet, or when it comes to your own person when someone advises you that you should have a needle stuck in your arm and injected with a substance you have no understanding of. There's nothing wrong with that. That'll take time for people to come around to the idea if they think like that. Whenever this thing gradually starts to fuck off, and all the mentalists spitting negative noise fuck off and have egg on their faces, more and more will feel safer and more assured about the vaccines.

[classycarra]

If the vaccine in ten years time saw 99 % of takers still have antibodies, then I'll put my hands up but I won't hold my breath, sadly.

Will you? You haven't really held your hands up for being wrong about practically everything you confidently asserted early 2020 up to March before you left RAWK in embarassment.

Honestly, your Dunning Kruger style of talking assertively about science that you don't understand is very reminiscent of Elon Musk when he was predicting zero cases last April and when he thought he understood ventilators better than people who operate them
https://xcancel.com/elonmusk/status/1240754657263144960
https://xcancel.com/elonmusk/status/1250607449498775552

[ScandinavianPete]

Think your king (assume your Swedish) has it spot on as to the reason why Swedish government failed in its handling of Covid through its pursuit of herd immunity.

He sadly has a learning and reading disability so I wouldn't take his word for it.

[CraigDS]

No point piling on Linudden. He's just giving his point of view on it. It's perfectly natural to be sceptical about things if they haven't personally affected you yet, or when it comes to your own person when someone advises you that you should have a needle stuck in your arm and injected with a substance you have no understanding of. There's nothing wrong with that. That'll take time for people to come around to the idea if they think like that. Whenever this thing gradually starts to fuck off, and all the mentalists spitting negative noise fuck off and have egg on their faces, more and more will feel safer and more assured about the vaccines.

Nah, he’s not coming from a “wary” point of view, which is fair. He’s coming from a “I’m OK so fuck the rest”.

So he deserves calling out.

[ShakaHislop]

Toby Young: Telegraph coronavirus column 'significantly misleading'

The Daily Telegraph must publish a correction over a "significantly misleading" column written by Toby Young, press regulator Ipso has ruled.

The July 2020 article claimed the common cold could provide "natural immunity" to Covid-19 and London was "probably approaching herd immunity".

But on Thursday Ipso found the paper had "failed to take care not to publish inaccurate and misleading information".

Ipso said the paper "did not accept it has breached the [Editors] Code".

It said the newspaper said that Young's comments on immunity referred to "cross-reactive T-cells" that work to combat the virus.

However, the media watchdog sided with the complainant, James Whitehead, in its decision, who said that while these cells "may lessen the impact of Covid-19" after infection, they "would not confer 'natural immunity'"

The ruling added Young's statement "misrepresented the nature of immunity".

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-55676037

[Statto Red]

Nah, he’s not coming from a “wary” point of view, which is fair. He’s coming from a “I’m OK so fuck the rest”.

So he deserves calling out.

He's a troll who needs perma banning, you want to see his luny posts in the F1 thread.

[CraigDS]

He's a troll who needs perma banning, you want to see his luny posts in the F1 thread.

Seen them mate and totally agree.

[Linudden]

He's a troll who needs perma banning, you want to see his luny posts in the F1 thread.

 

Good night anyway folks and stay safe!

[afc tukrish]

Let’s just call them fuckwits.  Because they are.

Ignorant, blow hard, opinionated, know nothing fuckwits.

Let's just call them Linudden...

Edit: damn it, Elmo...

[TepidT2O]

Let's just call them Linudden...

Edit: damn it, Elmo...

No, that’s not fair.  The points weren’t made specifically at him no matter how low an opinion I have of him.

[Clint Eastwood]

Yeah good luck to those who choose to have it. If it just has an immunity guaranteed of less than a year I fail to see the point for non-vulnerable ones though. The problem with many people is that they live in a utopia where we can eliminate all deaths and all disease and it's been a large problem leading to the global reaction. When people set an unrealistic goal (say Everton to win the league) when that ain't achieved the blame game starts.

If the vaccine in ten years time saw 99 % of takers still have antibodies, then I'll put my hands up but I won't hold my breath, sadly.

Painful to read these kind of comments when the poster clearly has no idea how vaccines actually eliminate disease.

A vaccine isn’t just a magic power injected in to your body. It’s part of a collaborative effort to drive the amount of virus in circulation until it’s driven out.

[classycarra]

I don't think Linudden's a troll and don't think he should be banned, I just think he struggles to see (or try to see) other people's perspectives and losing his temper a bit when people don't see things the way he does - see for example multiple posts suggesting he's going to stop watching Liverpool, stop watching football, stop watching F1 because of a decision that upset him.

In the same way, he struggles to understand that taking a vaccine (such as the flu jab) even if you aren't concerned for your own health is important because it's putting your community first and putting their needs above your own. Again struggles with the perspective that even though he thinks he'd not be one of the unlucky ones to have covid complications, to the point of calling people in this thread cowards who are living in fear of a virus - but lacks the self awareness to spot that his main justification for not wanting the vaccine is, in his own words, fear.

He also thinks that because he doesn't know or see any 'vulnerable people' (obviously we know he's not capable of visually diagnosing people and only means 'old'), that he doesn't need to try to protect them by getting the vaccine. But that shows he can't put himself in the shoes of the people who work in his office with them, whose contacts he is unaware of and can't control.

I don't think it's trolling, it's just his personality.

[djahern]

I might be wrong here and apologise if I am, but I think Linudden has a point. Vaccines, from my understanding, teach the body how to deal with a virus its never encountered before. Now, once everyone classed as vulnerable has been vaccinated to prevent us getting seriously ill in the future, if a non vaccinated person has a healthy immune system that can deal with the virus on its own, then is there any real reason to vaccinate everyone, isn't it better to let the body deal with it if it can? The flu vaccine isn't needed for everyone, just those at risk, yet around 12 million people a year catch the flu. 

The question is valid. The assumptions by Linudden to arrive at the those conclusions are flawed though.

It comes down to transmission versus illness severity and how both are impacted by vaccination. If a vaccine blunts illness severity only with no impact on transmission, then of course only vaccinating those groups prone to serious illness is the correct strategy and then go back to what we were doing in February 2020. You've protected the vulnerable as best you can, not much more you can do unless we want to continue with social distancing - which we don't.

But if the vaccine significantly impacts transmission also, then the best way to protect the vulnerable is to vaccinate everyone after you've vaccinated them. The reason for this is that vaccines aren't protective for 100% of people. So for those vulnerable who it will protect from serious illness, they wont get ill, our mortality numbers will come down and we'll all go back to how we were in February 2020. But the virus will still spread, those vulnerable people who the vaccine didn't protect will get seriously ill and some will die. To protect these people we need to stop chains of transmission. We currently do it by social distancing, we could do it by vaccinating the bulk of the non-vulnerable population.

Vaccinating the vulnerable groups may end up protecting 70% of them from serious illness, vaccinating the remaining population can protect the other 30%. I say 70% because we don't know yet what efficacy this vaccine will have in the real world settings it is being administered (it won't be 90%) Measles was mentioned further down the page - it's always assumed we give the second dose of measles vaccination as a boost - we don't. The second administration is to protect the 8% of people who the first dose didn't work for due to it not being administered properly. That extra 8% makes a huge difference to population immunity for a virus that spreads so easily.

That's a caution not to assume that efficacy of trials will translate exactly to real world settings. We are likely looking at a vaccine that is somewhere between 70-90% effective rather than the numbers that came from the trial. So to protect that remaining 20-30% requires vaccination of everyone else and protects them simply by them not being exposed to the virus. Someone claiming they don't come into contact with the over 75's so vaccination isn't required misses the point about chains of infection. If you pick this up, you will pass it on, and that chain of infection you are a part of and helped (unwittingly) propagate will eventually pass through someone who's over 75, and someone who is vulnerable. Social distancing currently stops us 'youngsters' from being part of those chains and vaccination will stop us being part of them in the future when social distancing has gone.

As measles and mutation was brought up, some interesting things. Measles does mutate, just like other viruses. But it's proteins that it uses to latch onto and invade cells (a bit like to the coronavirus spike protein) are really sensitive to any changes in their structure. If they mutate even a little they can't bind and infect human cells at all. So we assume that measles doesn't mutate when it does - it's just that we never see a mutation in these surface proteins (which the vaccine creates antibodies to) as it would then never pass from person to person.

[classycarra]

Painful to read these kind of comments when the poster clearly has no idea how vaccines actually eliminate disease.

A vaccine isn’t just a magic power injected in to your body. It’s part of a collaborative effort to drive the amount of virus in circulation until it’s driven out.

Yes, embarrasing too.

Imagine referring to public health efforts to eradicate diseases causing millions of death as a "problem".

Luckily the public health world isn't as clouded in ignorance as he is, nor do they see trying to keep people from dying preventable deaths as a "problem".

If they shared in his ignorance and desired inertia (always find it weird that he gets worked up about other people putting effort in), we'd not have eradicated smallpox.

[Clint Eastwood]

Yes, embarrasing too.

Imagine referring to public health efforts to eradicate diseases causing millions of death as a "problem".

Luckily the public health world isn't as clouded in ignorance as he is, nor do they see trying to keep people from dying preventable deaths as a "problem".

If they shared in his ignorance and desired inertia (always find it weird that he gets worked up about other people putting effort in), we'd not have eradicated smallpox.

It’s ignorance. He clearly doesn’t fully understand what he’s talking about but he will go with it anyway.

It’s pretty jarring seeing some of the stuff he has said. He needs to walk in to a hospital and see what is going on right now.