Author Topic: Rawk round table LFC 4-0 v FFC  (Read 31619 times)

Offline S

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Re: Rawk round table LFC 4-0 v FFC
« Reply #40 on: November 11, 2013, 12:20:37 am »
It's refreshing to be able to actually beat the weaker teams in the league. This season, for the first time in a while, I feel confident heading into games against the likes of Fulham. That simply hasn't been the case for us these past few years. On the rare occasions in which I was brave enough to forecast three points, the prediction would usually be thrown back in my face in the form of endless shots hitting the woodwork, a superhuman away goalkeeper or a beach ball from the Anfield gift shop. I feel we've made great progress and that such frustrating afternoons will now be few and far between. Admittedly Fulham were terrible, but in our last two home games we've scored eight times.

Very glad to see Johnson back. I rate him very highly anyway, but still forgot how much we've missed him. Sturridge would've had a couple on another day, just wasn't working out for him. Gerrard played well, which actually makes last week's performance all the more confusing and frustrating. Suarez was Suarez.

We also could've had a couple of penalties. Not stone wall admittedly, but one's that I've seen given to other teams.

Offline 007.lankyguy

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Re: Rawk round table LFC 4-0 v FFC
« Reply #41 on: November 11, 2013, 12:25:01 am »
I think it was an interesting and yet difficult game to analyse. Difficult because it was so comfortable for us and we were so dominant in all areas and Fulham were so poor, that it's hard to know what to take from it in a way.

Fulham were pretty appalling - they defended in a passive way, dropping into a badly controlled low block which failed to exert pressure on the ball and couldn't control space. They allowed shots in the 'red zone' just outside their area and had such little possession with which to threaten or even relieve pressure that much. Lucas, Gerrard and Coutinho moving into midfield often had plenty of space to face play and orchestrate attacks, particularly the latter two - Coutinho being able to turn onto his right foot with no pressure on the ball is always going to be a danger and because we had so much possession, Gerrard's excellent offensive qualities were on show yesterday - his ability to play passes to perfection, his technique, his switches of play are of such a high quality and against a team like Fulham who don't defend in a proactive, organised way, his weaknesses and inefficiencies won't be showed up that much.

The most interesting thing for me was the roles of the two 'wingers'. Traditionally Henderson, when he has played wide under Rodgers, has been a compensation player - tucking in as a third midfielder, compensating for others elsewhere and trying to cover the possible loss of balance that could occur in certain areas. Against Fulham though, he was used much more as penetrative tool - he played wider to the right, he made more runs behind in that area, he responded to trigger movements to make diagonal runs from his wide position to behind the defence and he linked up extremely well with Johnson, who often had a lot of space because Kacaniklic was effectively often marking Henderson and Richardson at left back had very little idea of what to do, when to narrow, when to go tight, what positions to take up. There's definitely trigger movements on that right side in terms of what runs to make and when, when Johnson can go forward etc. Henderson's assist impressed me and I wonder if we might well persist with this shape and if so, whether Henderson will be expanding his game skill-set.

Coutinho was different in that he was often very narrow, coming inside deep into midfield to collect the ball in space and try orchestrate attacks, play penetrative passes and get on the ball so he could orchestrate in certain areas. Again, against other teams he might not have such luxuries as he was afforded against Fulham, but it's clear when you have as much space we had on Saturday, we are very dangerous - we have the ability to pass the ball at speed, we often have dynamic movement, Lucas is effective at killing opportunities for the opponent on transition defence and we space the pitch decently - we have threats through the middle and increasingly on the right, although there is a possibility that we get narrow on the left.

Overall an excellent performance of complete control and domination. The derby can't come soon enough.
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Offline Bobinhood

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Re: Rawk round table LFC 4-0 v FFC
« Reply #42 on: November 11, 2013, 01:21:19 am »
I see clear evidence of a buddy system going on here. Johnson-Henderson, Lucas-Gerrard, Skrtl Agger and  SaS . The only fly in the ointment is Couhtino and Sissokho, but even Sissokho ended up with an average position not far behind J-H , and Couhtino obviously has the free role and kept coming inside to supply everyone, and I mean everybody, on his right.

Its a whole new concept: 5 two man pairs running all over the place!  Call it, Double Jeopardy. Brought to you by the Brendan Rodgers Deathball playbook. 

Pairs that are clock working as they do so! Pairs capable of splitting up and reforming like Swan Lake being performed in Moscow at Christmas. Pairs determined to outdo the other pairs as well as the opposition for weekly banter rights ownership. Pairs of pairs, and a spare pair, too.

OR:

Maybe Fulham are just shit. Probably, that's it.  ;D   
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Offline n00bert

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Re: Rawk round table LFC 4-0 v FFC
« Reply #43 on: November 11, 2013, 04:16:10 am »
Probably our most complete performance of the season.

I liked that he brought Allen on and I liked that when he came on he showed the desire to close and press.

Still a few question marks for me over Cissokho. I've been critical of Enrique but on first impressions Cissokho doesn't seem like an upgrade. Enrique is frustrating and makes some really ill advised passes, but one-on-one defensively he is probably one of our better players. Cissokho hasn't added much going forward and looks a bit less composed than Enrique at the back. Maybe he's still struggling to gel with the squad but for me the jury is still out.

The thing I found most impressive was the energy levels of the players. The contrast between this game and the Arsenal one was huge. I think looking at this game and seeing what we could have done in terms of pressing and closing down and shutting down passing lanes it makes me even more disappointed that we didn't put in a same sort of shift against Arsenal.

Suarez is magnificent. I wasn't pleased with how he was angling for a move in the summer but bloody hell he's come back with a bang.

Offline ArchieC

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Re: Rawk round table LFC 4-0 v FFC
« Reply #44 on: November 11, 2013, 04:44:45 am »
I see clear evidence of a buddy system going on here. Johnson-Henderson, Lucas-Gerrard, Skrtl Agger and  SaS . The only fly in the ointment is Couhtino and Sissokho, but even Sissokho ended up with an average position not far behind J-H , and Couhtino obviously has the free role and kept coming inside to supply everyone, and I mean everybody, on his right.

Its a whole new concept: 5 two man pairs running all over the place!  Call it, Double Jeopardy. Brought to you by the Brendan Rodgers Deathball playbook. 

Pairs that are clock working as they do so! Pairs capable of splitting up and reforming like Swan Lake being performed in Moscow at Christmas. Pairs determined to outdo the other pairs as well as the opposition for weekly banter rights ownership. Pairs of pairs, and a spare pair, too.

OR:

Maybe Fulham are just shit. Probably, that's it.  ;D

Yep Coutinho is our playmaker so his role will always be free unless his man marked but then Rodgers can switch players around and work around it.
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Offline Sweeney94

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Re: Rawk round table LFC 4-0 v FFC
« Reply #45 on: November 11, 2013, 05:30:02 am »
Although we didn't see much of him I thought Allen was good. I think its very important for us that he starts games away from home against big teams. Allen being able to keep the ball is more significant that Henderson's pressing and energy in games were we can be subject to large periods of pressure and dominance, specifically in the middle of the park. None of this was really relevant on their displays against Fulham but just a thought.

Thought Johnson was very good. Left back still a big concern in my eyes.

 

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Re: Rawk round table LFC 4-0 v FFC
« Reply #46 on: November 11, 2013, 06:30:58 am »
Although we didn't see much of him I thought Allen was good. I think its very important for us that he starts games away from home against big teams. Allen being able to keep the ball is more significant that Henderson's pressing and energy in games were we can be subject to large periods of pressure and dominance, specifically in the middle of the park. None of this was really relevant on their displays against Fulham but just a thought.

Thought Johnson was very good. Left back still a big concern in my eyes.

I thought there was a noticable drop off in attacking threat when Allen came on for Gerrard. And while Henderson isn't Zidane he was still good in that sudo winger/midfielder role he played. I think he's preferable to Allen both home or away. Allen's done nothing wrong and still has a role in the squad but IMO he's got to show more to justify a bigger role than his current one as sub or rotation/cover for Gerrard and Lucas. Right now I have the other three ahead of him.
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Offline bepoq

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Re: Rawk round table LFC 4-0 v FFC
« Reply #47 on: November 11, 2013, 07:41:18 am »
I'd just like to say a word about Lucas, possession and pressing—it should perhaps go in the Lucas Gerrard thread, but it's come to me thinking about this last game, to some extent in juxtaposition with the one before it.

Anway, it seems to me that Lucas is a very good defensive midfielder when we play deep, (but he can be got at if the space he patrols is overloaded with opposition midfielders) but that he is an absolute monster when we move up the pitch and press and exert pressure in front of him, controlling the ball more and pressing when we lose it. Two reasons for this (well, the ones I've noticed most anyway). When we're up the pitch and pressing well, the passes out from the opposition are often hurried, sometimes panicked, and certainly unable to be timed to the run of a forward leaving his marker (in any direction I suppose, but mainly back to the ball). Lucas is just remarkably good at reading the game from that advance defensive position, and he absolutely hoovers up these less than optimal passes. He flat out bullies opposition forwards and midfielders because his reading and sharpness to the ball is better than theirs, and defensively in this phase of the game I think he's as good as Mascherano was—he doesn't cover the ground as quickly, or destroy quite as aggressively, but he has some Xabi mixed in—he reads the game better and his tackles are frequently not full on tackles because they don't have to be—he's arrived at the optimal moment (and he can be freer about it because up the pitch it doesn't matter so much if he mistimes it).

Secondly, his distribution after gaining possession in mid or advanced midfield is very effective—quick and accurate—wide or down the middle, giving extra time on the ball to Gerrard, Coutinho and the front two even in a shortened field—and when we play forward, most of the passes available are well within his most effective range. Finally, it's when we finally manage to move the whole team forward that Lucas finally turns up on the edge of, or even in the box. Not often, but when the opportunity presents itself—which it will more frequently now that we've got more than one or two main attacking threats to pull the opposition about. My feeling is, taken all in all, that when we press and the whole team moves up the pitch, Lucas becomes absolutely world class—and as such, I'd like to see us do it rather more, not because I'm a particular fan of Lucas, but because I think that the benefit of his play at its top level is really worth looking for, and I also think it is more likely what Rodgers has in mind, and that it will bring us more success than will the sitting deep stuff.

Finally, I've heard people say on here that we don't have the personnel to play the pressing/possession game properly, and I'm wondering why that is. The only ones who it would seem can't do it/don't much like it (if you've got Enrique and Johnson in the team) are Gerrard (struggles on the pressing side for a whole game due to legs, and tends to want to release the long ball quickly, because he can do so devastatingly, but it doesn't bring the whole team up the pitch), perhaps Skertl , just in not being so enthusiastic about a high line (although, I'm not longer sure this is true—I've not been his biggest fan, but one wonders how much it has been about confidence with him given a couple of recent performances—the too many touches, the panic out wide, the wanting to drop further back—maybe they were signs of a player not trusting himself and he will continue to improve), and Mignolet. I watched Napoli and Juventus today, and Pepe, who also made a couple of quite extraordinarily fine stops and wasn't at fault at all for any of the goals (all three are worth looking for by the way... actually, the whole game, just to watch Pirlo take the piss even in a game of two excellent teams full of good players playing well), just looks so at ease with the ball at his feet by comparison. Is that it then. Three players don't fit (sort of) the pressing model and thus we can only do it against weak teams? If Skertl improves and Mignolet adapts, could Lucas play in front of Gerrard (Gerrard as his own version of Pirlo)?

um, sorry, rather longer ramble than I expected.


« Last Edit: November 11, 2013, 07:46:02 am by bepoq »

Offline woof

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Re: Rawk round table LFC 4-0 v FFC
« Reply #48 on: November 11, 2013, 08:20:50 am »
Thought our performance befits a 'semi' well-oiled machine. We're not the finished article yet but we're getting there. We're definitely more fluid than the 1-0 performances we put away at the start of the season. With SAS firing, we look fluid in attack and Gerrard back to his imperious best after a bad day at the office at Emirates.

Hendo is quick becoming the most improved player in my books. He's gaining confidence and his passes are getting better. Next up, he should work on his shooting.

We looked unbalanced not because one side was weaker but it's a testament to Johnson's value to the team. Cissokho offered nothing much going forward but Johnson just bossed the right flank with Hendo. Glad to see Enrique back. Hopefully he gets back to match fitness and we're back to the best starting XI.

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Offline dumaten

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Re: Rawk round table LFC 4-0 v FFC
« Reply #49 on: November 11, 2013, 09:49:03 am »
I saw the formation as the same as the Stoke game at the start of the season, 4-2-2-2 is probably the best description. It is lopsided, but against weak teams especially that's a good thing - teams try to line up relatively symmetrically defensively so overloading one side, with Coutinho moving central, Henderson staying right and Johnson charging forward, takes the opposition players out of their comfort zones or leaves them isolated. Richardson in particular looked completely lost.

Johnson and Henderson combine so well down the right, Johnson's movement is so intelligent that he's always available for a pass, and Henderson will always play that pass. Johnson can go forward in the knowledge Henderson is in support, and if he takes someone on and loses it Henderson's probably going to win it back anyway.

I like what we're trying to do with Sturridge. He has the quality to work well outside the box, we've seen it in flashes but it looks like we're trying to get him to regularly drop deep, get on the ball, drag players out of position. He has quick feet, and is technically more than good enough to hold the ball under pressure and beat players - I see him as technically an allround forward but with the mentality of a penalty box striker. For two up front to work in the long run neither can play as a pure striker, both need to drop deep and wide to create chances. I was pleased to see Michael Owen highlight his contribution to the third goal on MOTD.

Fulham have all sorts of problems, mainly that they're not ready to do the ugly stuff and have very little physical presence. They tried to sit in a low block, but had neither the pace or the effort up front to cause us problems on the counter. And we play through low block teams pretty easily these days, especially with Coutinho back in the side (who still needs a few games to hit his best level, but gave a very encouraging performance). They may have enough quality to beat the sides around them despite getting outfought by them, but I've had money on them getting relegated since a few weeks back.

Offline freddwarf

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Re: Rawk round table LFC 4-0 v FFC
« Reply #50 on: November 11, 2013, 10:37:32 am »
Well we were expected to beat Fulham and we did. That slightly frustrating inconsistency we had at home under Ged,Rafa and Kenny as well is hopefully behind us although we did get beat by Soton.

One of the key factors in getting a regular top 4 spot is the ability to put away teams outside the top 4/5. If we do that consistently we will finish in the top 4 and with more improvement mayby title contenders. But we have to get that habit of beating these smaller team.

Look at Everton yesterday, only a draw at Palace. That's the type of inconsistency we have suffered from in the last 6/7 years or so. It's the type of form that gets us 5/6/7th place.

Top 4 - beat the rest. Break even with the top teams if Possible.

Offline mulfella

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Re: Rawk round table LFC 4-0 v FFC
« Reply #51 on: November 11, 2013, 11:02:42 am »
although we did get beat by Soton.


There would appear to be no shame in that this season
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Offline freddwarf

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Re: Rawk round table LFC 4-0 v FFC
« Reply #52 on: November 11, 2013, 11:16:41 am »
There would appear to be no shame in that this season

Southampton will finish outside the top 6. Pochettino will be in demand from Spain. He played & managed there. to be honest I thought he would blow up after Atkins unluckily getting sacked. And Southampton would look daft for appointing him.

Not easy to get Soton high in the League as top players are not exactly clamouring to go there, so he's done really well so far.

Offline Lovely Man

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Re: Rawk round table LFC 4-0 v FFC
« Reply #53 on: November 11, 2013, 11:43:27 am »
Key Points:

1 - Fulham are awful, absolutely awful.

2 - We were very good in patches, but impossible to summarise generally about what this means in relation to other opponents who actually want a result against us.

3 - Some signs that the Sturridge/Suarez axis isn't necessary.  I think that generally we look a better team with just one of them playing at any one time.  Very difficult to make that acceptable to the striker left out when we have so few games though.

4 - It's clear that the role of all the other midfielders should be to allow a platform from which Coutinho can operate. 

5 - We look great when we play a high line, I think Agger is integral to that.

6 - Noticeable that we closed down for 90 minutes, but also noticeable that Gerrard went off on 60 minutes.  Sure, you sacrifice some quality when he goes off but you gain in work rate from midfield.

7 - Still noticeable that no goals from midfield/attack in open play other than the goal from Moses vs Swansea.  This continues to be a source of concern.

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Offline Garcepticon

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Re: Rawk round table LFC 4-0 v FFC
« Reply #54 on: November 11, 2013, 01:00:18 pm »
It was interesting to see how much we attacked down the right on Saturday. Richardson was given a horrible day and whoscored have rated his performance at 5.95/10, I couldn't find the dribbled past statistic but Johnson absolutely had the beating of him. It is fair to say that Henderson and Johnson complement each other well on that flank, Henderson covers for Johnson (one recovering tackle stands out) and Johnson compensates for Henderson's inability to beat players in a 1v1.

Compare and contrast with Cissokho, who was allowed to perform in a much more conservative manner, he maintains width but doesn't actively join attacks. This complements Coutinho who is given more room to play in due to the width maintained by Cissokho. With all due respect, there are a lot of fullbacks who could have done what Cissokho did on Saturday, but how many fullbacks in the league offer the same attacking threat as Johnson? Sagna has excellent physical attributes and has assisted a few goals recently but does he have the same 1v1 ability? Who else can challenge him?

In a supply vs demand narrative, you would have to argue that players of Johnson's calibre are a rare breed and everyone in the league would benefit from a player like him. To my mind he is absolutely worth his high wages, and replacing him is going to be a real problem for us, especially as he continues to pick up small injuries and miss parts of the season. An able deputy to that role, and not position, is an absolute priority over the coming transfer windows.

Lucas and Gerrard were phenomenal on Saturday, Allen also did a good job when he came on - but Gerrard's delivery is going to be worth so many points and goals over the course of the season. Equally, Henderson reached a different level when compared to Arsenal.

Question: how do the bottom half of the table stop this Liverpool team at Anfield? Right now all I can think of is to mimic Southampton but as mentioned before in these RT threads, very few teams play that way and a high defensive line and concerted midfield pressure isn't coached overnight. We absolutely thrive on the space which we are being afforded by these teams.

Also on a final note, no goal for Sturridge but in consecutive home games he has won free kicks which we have taken advantage of.

Offline DanA

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Re: Rawk round table LFC 4-0 v FFC
« Reply #55 on: November 11, 2013, 01:05:43 pm »
Key Points:

3 - Some signs that the Sturridge/Suarez axis isn't necessary.  I think that generally we look a better team with just one of them playing at any one time.  Very difficult to make that acceptable to the striker left out when we have so few games though.

4 - It's clear that the role of all the other midfielders should be to allow a platform from which Coutinho can operate. 

6 - Noticeable that we closed down for 90 minutes, but also noticeable that Gerrard went off on 60 minutes.  Sure, you sacrifice some quality when he goes off but you gain in work rate from midfield.

7 - Still noticeable that no goals from midfield/attack in open play other than the goal from Moses vs Swansea.  This continues to be a source of concern.

I've cut out the points I agree with and don't feel I have anything to add to.

3. I can't understand how you've come to this conclusion and in particular off the back of this game. Since Suarez has come back the SAS partnership averages 2 goals a game (Suarez 8, Sturridge 4) and that's not counting the penalty Suarez won and subsequent red card that Newcastle received. Further I can't see how in a game where Suarez scores two and Sturridge wins a free kick that leads to another that the conclusion is the partnership is anything but crucially important and completely necessary.

4. I agree that getting Coutinho on the ball should be a major focus but I'd stop short of suggesting all other midfield roles should be defined by it. We saw Henderson and Gerrard devastate and while Coutinho was breathtaking, it wasn't his day on the creative front. That's going to happen from time to time and I think other midfielders stepping up will be important. If we are to make this a title challenging season we realistically need 15 goals in open play from Gerrard, Henderson and Coutinho and for that to happen it likely needs to be a combined effort.

6. Gerrard for me didn't look tired and I thought the performance noticeably dropped after he went off. I won't argue against the sub, I can totally understand the argument about Gerrard playing too many minutes and needing to be managed but I don't see how Rodgers opportunistically taking Gerrard off when 4 goals up supports an ability to press for 90 minutes. We didn't press any better after he was off, in fact I thought the overall performance declined. I thought Fulham was passive to the point where Gerrard could have play 180 minutes and barely have broken a sweat.
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Offline DanA

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Re: Rawk round table LFC 4-0 v FFC
« Reply #56 on: November 11, 2013, 01:16:46 pm »
In a supply vs demand narrative, you would have to argue that players of Johnson's calibre are a rare breed and everyone in the league would benefit from a player like him. To my mind he is absolutely worth his high wages, and replacing him is going to be a real problem for us, especially as he continues to pick up small injuries and miss parts of the season. An able deputy to that role, and not position, is an absolute priority over the coming transfer windows.

Question: how do the bottom half of the table stop this Liverpool team at Anfield? Right now all I can think of is to mimic Southampton but as mentioned before in these RT threads, very few teams play that way and a high defensive line and concerted midfield pressure isn't coached overnight. We absolutely thrive on the space which we are being afforded by these teams.

I think that's a great point about Johnson, he's priceless IMO and really it's only Lamb and Alves I can think of that are on his level in terms of ability on the ball, certainly none in the league. I really think Coentrao is a leftback version of Johnson and would be one of the first players I'd target even if his wages are a bit more than we'd like. We rely so heavily on our fullbacks/wingbacks that we can't afford to lack quality.

On the last question I think it relates a bit to above. I don't think Southampton is nearly as successful if Johnson plays and even less so if we have the same level of talent on the ball from the left. Stoke even though they lost, that style I see causing us headaches for poor teams.
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Re: Rawk round table LFC 4-0 v FFC
« Reply #57 on: November 11, 2013, 01:42:00 pm »
Key Points:

1 - Fulham are awful, absolutely awful.

2 - We were very good in patches, but impossible to summarise generally about what this means in relation to other opponents who actually want a result against us.

3 - Some signs that the Sturridge/Suarez axis isn't necessary.  I think that generally we look a better team with just one of them playing at any one time.  Very difficult to make that acceptable to the striker left out when we have so few games though.

4 - It's clear that the role of all the other midfielders should be to allow a platform from which Coutinho can operate. 

5 - We look great when we play a high line, I think Agger is integral to that.

6 - Noticeable that we closed down for 90 minutes, but also noticeable that Gerrard went off on 60 minutes.  Sure, you sacrifice some quality when he goes off but you gain in work rate from midfield.

7 - Still noticeable that no goals from midfield/attack in open play other than the goal from Moses vs Swansea.  This continues to be a source of concern.


To be honest, I get fed up to death with this line being rolled out.

At the end of the day, each and every one of those fulham players are professional footballers earning a shed load of money......and our millionaire footballers beat them.

A team is not in the Premier League by mistake, they earn the right.

You can only beat whats put in front of you and we hammered them.

3 points, whether we beat Fulham or Chelsea its the same.

And as I'm sure I've read from some other posters........we beat the teams we 'should' be beating and we'll be near the top of the table come the end of the season.

And you know what?  Thats exactly what we are doing.

Couldnt give a shite how rubbish or good our opponents are.  Just as long as we win.

Delighted!

Offline Garcepticon

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Re: Rawk round table LFC 4-0 v FFC
« Reply #58 on: November 11, 2013, 02:10:11 pm »
To be honest, I get fed up to death with this line being rolled out.
At the end of the day, each and every one of those fulham players are professional footballers earning a shed load of money......and our millionaire footballers beat them.
A team is not in the Premier League by mistake, they earn the right.
You can only beat whats put in front of you and we hammered them.
3 points, whether we beat Fulham or Chelsea its the same.
And as I'm sure I've read from some other posters........we beat the teams we 'should' be beating and we'll be near the top of the table come the end of the season.
And you know what?  Thats exactly what we are doing.
Couldnt give a shite how rubbish or good our opponents are.  Just as long as we win.
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I've been considering this line lately. It absolutely embodies the mentality of the Liverpool side from the 80's, whenever we had Kenny in a press conference in the 2011-2012 seasons he would play down every fixture. How many times did we hear or read Kenny saying that every league game was worth three points and no more? Further to this, Sachin Nakrani published a great interview with John Barnes with an eye on the, at the time, upcoming fixture between Arsenal and Liverpool. Barnes says,

"I can watch that goal back [2-0 Arsenal 1989] without feeling any regrets or remorse because that's how we were taught to think at Liverpool; to treat success and disaster exactly the same, as that is the only way you can maintain the focus needed to be successful on a consistent basis."
(Worth a read btw: http://www.theguardian.com/football/2013/oct/31/liverpool-suarez-sturridge-attack-john-barnes)

First of all, Rodgers references this mentality in his post match interview on Saturday saying that the feeling around the club for "winnable" games wasn't conducive to a good performance.  That there was nerves and anticipation aplently in the dressing room. We approach these games with an excellent mindset and don't let an early miss (ala Carroll hitting the bar against Swansea two seasons ago) dictate our mentality for the rest of the game. So much credit has to go to Rodgers because it seems he has identified what we would all agree to be a big problem and gone a long way to setting it right.

Our response to setbacks and expectation is getting much better, we haven't collapsed inexplicably this season - we have lost points to Arsenal, Newcastle and Southampton for largely tactical, and not mental, issues. To remove that emotion/luck from results creates a much more reliable basis to continue the league campaign as that feeling of frustration was the cause of many of the setbacks we seemed to experience under Kenny.

Offline robgomm

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Re: Rawk round table LFC 4-0 v FFC
« Reply #59 on: November 11, 2013, 02:31:22 pm »
I just wanted to post a quick example of something I found great on Saturday (movement of forwards). This is a moment Coutinho played a through ball for Henderson:



What had happened just before is Fulham had a flat line of four at the back, Coutinho picked up the ball on the left and drifted in. Suarez has already pulled away and can receive the ball in space deep. Sidwell knows Suarez has moved (you can see him look slightly earlier) but is drawn towards Coutinho, as is Parker.

The key move is Sturridge, who drops deep and Amorebieta decides to go with him. Henderson charges into the open space and Coutinho's pass is just out his reach.

What I love about this is that team movement makes a big wide open space but Henderson's run can also be used as a dummy, with Coutinho laying off to a nearby teammate if he chooses and with Fulham's defence pulled out of position.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2013, 02:39:05 pm by robgomm »

Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: Rawk round table LFC 4-0 v FFC
« Reply #60 on: November 11, 2013, 02:50:50 pm »
It was interesting to see how much we attacked down the right on Saturday. Richardson was given a horrible day and whoscored have rated his performance at 5.95/10, I couldn't find the dribbled past statistic but Johnson absolutely had the beating of him. It is fair to say that Henderson and Johnson complement each other well on that flank, Henderson covers for Johnson (one recovering tackle stands out) and Johnson compensates for Henderson's inability to beat players in a 1v1.

Interestingly, Johnson only won 2 out of 5 1v1's. Henderson had one 1v1 and won it. So you can clearly see the mentality aspect of what you mention - Johnson likes to take players on (although I would say, as I always have, that he's not particularly "good" at it, in a technical sense - but he makes the effort, and against certain teams that can be just as good as actually winning them), while Henderson prefers to pass the ball and use a combination to beat a player. It all comes down to risk/reward psychology. It's no surprise that Johnson started out as a forward when he was young. Henderson was probably always a central midfielder, or a fullback, as a kid. It wouldn't surprise me if that was the case. But it's all about mentality, and the willingness to take the risk on a 1v1 is the mentality of the forward, and it informs a lot of Johnson's play.

Quote
Compare and contrast with Cissokho, who was allowed to perform in a much more conservative manner, he maintains width but doesn't actively join attacks. This complements Coutinho who is given more room to play in due to the width maintained by Cissokho. With all due respect, there are a lot of fullbacks who could have done what Cissokho did on Saturday, but how many fullbacks in the league offer the same attacking threat as Johnson? Sagna has excellent physical attributes and has assisted a few goals recently but does he have the same 1v1 ability? Who else can challenge him?

Baines and Coleman at Everton actually have comparable or better stats for 1v1's. Vertonghen too. Other than that, though, that's about it. Most fullbacks in the league are conservative players who are more comfortable passing than dribbling.

Quote
In a supply vs demand narrative, you would have to argue that players of Johnson's calibre are a rare breed and everyone in the league would benefit from a player like him. To my mind he is absolutely worth his high wages, and replacing him is going to be a real problem for us, especially as he continues to pick up small injuries and miss parts of the season. An able deputy to that role, and not position, is an absolute priority over the coming transfer windows.

Replacing him is actually not too difficult, if we're willing to work with our youth system. I'd be looking at Sterling if it was me, or possibly Ibe, for his pace. These are young attacking players who have quickness, pace, and 1v1 ability - but who, crucially, are not in the goalscoring class of an Owen or Fowler at a similar age. For all Sterling's appearances (47 in total), he only has 3 goals. In his 18th/19th year of age, Michael Owen scored 18 league goals in 36 appearances. Fowler announced himself to the wider world with 5 goals against Fulham (I'm not talking about his debut - just that in that game, everybody outside of Liverpool saw what he was about). Sterling has all the attacking talents, but not the goalscoring rate, of a top forward. So with a succession plan for Johnson needed, retooling Sterling's game as an attacking fullback in the Johnson fashion could be the best thing for both club and player - it would give him an "in" to the team without the pressure of goals, allow himself to express his skills because Rodgers likes that in players, take him out of the pressure zone where goals are vital, and also give him the chance to become the starting England fullback in relatively quick time. So the solution is already there (the same applies to Ibe, too) if we are to go for the same type of fullback as Johnson.

Quote
Lucas and Gerrard were phenomenal on Saturday, Allen also did a good job when he came on - but Gerrard's delivery is going to be worth so many points and goals over the course of the season. Equally, Henderson reached a different level when compared to Arsenal.


Spot on, as they say

Quote
Question: how do the bottom half of the table stop this Liverpool team at Anfield? Right now all I can think of is to mimic Southampton but as mentioned before in these RT threads, very few teams play that way and a high defensive line and concerted midfield pressure isn't coached overnight. We absolutely thrive on the space which we are being afforded by these teams.

I think if we extend that, also, to some of the top teams, we might see some "surprise" results against the more "open" teams. Everton, for one, I think will be a good game for us. City's defensive woes might give us some joy (as long as Pellegrini is still the manager), while Spurs' high defensive line could catch them out - although their midfield pressure will be something to contend with. But for the most part, outside of Southampton, no teams really "press" effectively, and we should be looking to do really well against the majority of teams this season. The more we put 3's, 4's and 5's past the lower teams, the more the subsequent ones will go into damage limitation mode when they face us, and psychologically - like Fulham - they will be "beaten" before a ball is kicked.

Quote
Also on a final note, no goal for Sturridge but in consecutive home games he has won free kicks which we have taken advantage of.

The value of dribbling :D
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Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: Rawk round table LFC 4-0 v FFC
« Reply #61 on: November 11, 2013, 02:57:45 pm »
I just wanted to post a quick example of something I found great on Saturday (movement of forwards). This is a moment Coutinho played a through ball for Henderson:



What had happened just before is Fulham had a flat line of four at the back, Coutinho picked up the ball on the left and drifted in. Suarez has already pulled away and can receive the ball in space deep. Sidwell knows Suarez has moved (you can see him look slightly earlier) but is drawn towards Coutinho, as is Parker.

The key move is Sturridge, who drops deep and Amorebieta decides to go with him. Henderson charges into the open space and Coutinho's pass is just out his reach.

What I love about this is that team movement makes a big wide open space but Henderson's run can also be used as a dummy, with Coutinho laying off to a nearby teammate if he chooses and with Fulham's defence pulled out of position.

If he'd done that, though, Rodgers would be right if he'd chewed his head off afterwards :D

Henderson making that run into THAT space deserves a pass, and not giving it means that in the same situation at a later point, Henderson might not make that run because he'll expect Coutinho to make the safe pass rather than the penetration pass. This is something Arsenal were guilty of yesterday against United. Too many safe passes in the attacking third. This shows the value of Coutinho though - he looks for those passes, because his education in Brazil has always been about diagonal movements to open up central passing lanes. That's why he "completes" the team, in a way. We have, as you say, great movement to create space. But it's all for nothing if somebody doesn't play the penetrating run with a pass. And as you point out - Coutinho was on that in a flash. Position, movement, vision, passing. All great elements that all great teams have had :D
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Offline robgomm

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Re: Rawk round table LFC 4-0 v FFC
« Reply #62 on: November 11, 2013, 03:00:04 pm »
I think if I was the manager of a lower table team against us I'd make sure Gerrard was pressed and take advantage of Lucas' aggressive mentality (he tends to challenge quite high into his own half to cut out attacks), get in that space in front of the centre backs and see what you can create there. It seems a fools errand to try to deal with Suarez, Sturridge and Coutinho's movement, though we'll see much better organised defences than Fulham against us this season and West Ham will be interesting for one, given last season.

Offline robgomm

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Re: Rawk round table LFC 4-0 v FFC
« Reply #63 on: November 11, 2013, 03:14:56 pm »
Ha, point taken PoP :D I think Coutinho was absolutely right to play the pass, it's impressive how bold he is actually in general. He shoots a LOT.

Offline Almo

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Re: Rawk round table LFC 4-0 v FFC
« Reply #64 on: November 11, 2013, 03:23:26 pm »
Just a note on Henderson who i thought was outstanding. The confidence that is filling his game is fantastic, not only is there the usual work rate, desire and energy but he has now added skill and subtlety as well. He is full if one twos, little dinks and tricks, cute little passes and that threaded ball for Suarez's was beautiful. if Coutinho had done that everyone would be going nuts about it. It shows how confident he is at the moment, I'm sure he's not the most skillful player naturally but through great coaching and growing confidence we're seeing a new side to his game. Rogers has moulded him fantastically, and he is one of the best at pressing the opposition and winning back posession. If he could just ad some goals to his game I really think he could be a very important player for a long time to come.

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Re: Rawk round table LFC 4-0 v FFC
« Reply #65 on: November 11, 2013, 03:32:14 pm »
Southampton will finish outside the top 6. Pochettino will be in demand from Spain. He played & managed there. to be honest I thought he would blow up after Atkins unluckily getting sacked. And Southampton would look daft for appointing him.

Not easy to get Soton high in the League as top players are not exactly clamouring to go there, so he's done really well so far.
I wonder if they are more than a flash in the pan. Firstly, your point about Spain. There is not big wages there outside the top two or three teams, compared to the prem. 2. He has a very useful core of British players who look less likely to run off to Europe in a hurry. 3. the main point really. Every so often there is a changing of the guard at the top of the league, a team or two every few years drift in and out of the top six. Where are Leeds and Bolton, even say, Newcastle?. Not so long ago they were forces to be reckoned with. There is much about Southampton to suggest they plan to stay around. With any luck the new mid table team making room at the top will be man utd. For all the money that they have spent, Man city look a mare away from home. Spurs quite literally have struggled to buy goals.
At least one of those three will not fully recover from their mixed starts.
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Offline Euskadi

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Re: Rawk round table LFC 4-0 v FFC
« Reply #66 on: November 11, 2013, 03:32:44 pm »
I think if I was the manager of a lower table team against us I'd make sure Gerrard was pressed and take advantage of Lucas' aggressive mentality (he tends to challenge quite high into his own half to cut out attacks), get in that space in front of the centre backs and see what you can create there. It seems a fools errand to try to deal with Suarez, Sturridge and Coutinho's movement, though we'll see much better organised defences than Fulham against us this season and West Ham will be interesting for one, given last season.

In my opinion the best way to get at us is a culmination of two things which happen in our third of the pitch which could be seen against West Ham and Stoke last season and Southampton this season. Forcing us to play to our full backs very early on, or better directly from our Goal keeper. I could be chatting shit here but I remember watching a training session on youtube by a dutch coach from Heneerven in the late 90s and he massively emphasised that doing so too early limits your options to either hoof it up which is likely to give possession away or to play an inside ball which the opposition would be anticipating and could lead to a dangerous situation. I guess this is the difference between pressure and pressing the latter being forcing the ball into an area you anticipate it to be, Southampton do this very effectively and with the full backs we had against them this season it was made even easier. I will be starting to take my badges in December so if I am chatting rubbish and some of you more experienced members feel I should be corrected then do not hesitate to do so  ;D
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Offline GrkStav

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Re: Rawk round table LFC 4-0 v FFC
« Reply #67 on: November 11, 2013, 03:41:13 pm »
I am surprised at the near unanimity regarding an alleged drop off in our performance after Allen came in for Gerrard. I have not yet watched the match my customary 2nd time, but I still have the distinct impression that there was no Allen-induced (Gerrard-absence-induced) drop-off in our game. In terms of 'controlling the game' (Rafa-style), the presence of Allen along with Lucas is a 'no brainer' for me. The lad receives the ball, passes the ball, and moves in an exemplary fashion.

As for Johnson, if we didn't experience a significant improvement with him on the side vs Flanagan, then I would have been extremely surprised. What I liked the most about his performance was his quick release of passes. His 1v1s when he took on Richardson were not ideal (in execution, timing or result) but they provided the 'threat' that was missing when anyone else has featured as RB or RWB.

Cissokho going forward was just fine, for me. Defensively, he was good when fully engaged but his positional sense and awareness of the 'field of battle' are not up to par yet.

When Skrtel becomes comfortable exchanging "wall passes" with Lucas, Gerrard or the full backs, he will complete HIS game in the LFC context. All in all, I think he had an excellent game for us and I was very happy to see him score with a header off a corner kick.
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Re: Rawk round table LFC 4-0 v FFC
« Reply #68 on: November 11, 2013, 03:42:45 pm »
I agree, Grkstav. I thought we switched to possession based play, which was a good plan.
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Re: Rawk round table LFC 4-0 v FFC
« Reply #69 on: November 11, 2013, 04:03:50 pm »
Gerrard provided so much attacking impetus that it was noticeable when Allen came on for him that we dropped off. Then again, at 4-0 up, it's not like everybody was as desperate to score more when we were comfortably controlling the game.
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Offline fowlermagic

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Re: Rawk round table LFC 4-0 v FFC
« Reply #70 on: November 11, 2013, 04:39:28 pm »
Lets say our pressure and desire to win made it a very bad day for a Fulham side who did not want to get out of bed that day for work. As some commentators said if you have 2 or 3 players who don't give you 100% then the better teams will take full advantage of you.


Hard to say how the back 4 impacted us overall as a back 1 against that side would have held their own. :) Just seeing Johnson play virtually as a wide striker told you everything in regards to Fulhams threat but I am a big fan of a more attacking minded formation against any team that plays like that. Johnson had a free role pretty much due to Henderson covering for him. Cissoko is not a full back I care for much really and Agger was just coming back so seeing how we played so well with such a ?? backline (a flying fully fit line of  Johnson, Skrtel, Agger & Enrique will be  a lot better option down the road) was a plus.

The key for any formation really is effort as if the lads are up for it then we will be just fine. With Suarez, Henderson, Johnson and Co filling in all over the place then a 4-4-2 becomes so fluid it allows us to have tonnes of options both in attack and in defense.

Coutinho is still struggling obviously as many of his passes were heavy but his presence and ability on the field scares the crap out of the opposition so cant wait when he finds his match fitness over the holidays.

Great result and what a joy it is to see the table right now.

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Offline MDougal

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Re: Rawk round table LFC 4-0 v FFC
« Reply #71 on: November 11, 2013, 07:23:53 pm »
I think this performance showed us the new found belief that we have got against the 'lesser' sides in the league.
The way that we have begun to dispatch the teams on paper that we would like to think we would beat is starting to become the norm which is quite an impressive feat really when you look at the problems the rest of the league are having against each other.

We are all hoping to add this kind of assured performance against the better sides but as Phase of Play stated at the start of the season if we achieve the results against the rest of the teams then a top 4 spot is definitely within grasp.
I'm still uncomfortable when we come up against the best sides as I think we are very much a confidence side that only has to be undone once against one of these 'top' sides and we lose our assurance in ourselves, but we can definitely see the almost arrogance like way we are bullying the rest of the league.

As for Saturday I think we played really well with the added help of Fulham seeming to believe that they could us the whole final third in space and think we would pass up the opportunity of converting the space into goals.
If it wasn't obvious before it certainly was during the game how important Glen Johnson is to the way we play. Yes at times he can be sloppy on the ball, but the way he just glides into positions that seem so alien to the rest of our wide players be it full backs or wingers.
He is a massive part of our dominance over these lesser sides as it frees space to the likes of Suarez, Sturridge, Coutinho and Gerrard which allows them to almost do as they please.

To me it was obvious from very early on that given a half decent day infront of goal we would go on to win comfortably as the space we had was almost criminal on Fulhams part, as I do believe the weaknesses we do have in midfield and defence is very much when space is denied and quick decisions are needed to be made.
The likes of Skrtel and Henderson who I thought had very good games relish the time they were given, and both look good players when allowed this freedom to take 2 or 3 touches before choosing their next option, and their weaknesses are hidden when this space becomes the norm in the game.

It baffles me honestly when I see teams play this way against us as I would go as far as saying now any team in this league that sets up this way against us will go home with their tails between their legs be that Chelsea, Man City or Palace etc.

I am living in hope for the rest of the season every team try's to play this way allowing the space, as as I see it the only major weakness we have now is the teams that put us under pressure to make snap decisions ie. Southampton, Arsenal, Swansea did it 2nd half to us whereas everyone else has allowed us the space and dare I say it we have looked top 4 if not championship material.
Long May that continue

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Re: Rawk round table LFC 4-0 v FFC
« Reply #72 on: November 11, 2013, 07:42:54 pm »
Think Johnson had an absolute blinder....agreed he was facing a meek opponent but he just adds a different dimension to our attacking and gives some much needed pace to this side.

Agger and Skrtel again showed that they do have quite a good understanding of each other's game....obviously against some bigger strikers think we'll need the physicality of a Toure and Sakho but against lesser oppositions especially at hope , these two should be the preferred choice. Think I'll take Sakho to start against Lukaku next week.


Offline Suareznumber7

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Re: Rawk round table LFC 4-0 v FFC
« Reply #73 on: November 11, 2013, 07:51:45 pm »
The more we put 3's, 4's and 5's past the lower teams, the more the subsequent ones will go into damage limitation mode when they face us, and psychologically - like Fulham - they will be "beaten" before a ball is kicked.


Something that should not be overlooked and will give us a huge advantage.  We need that psychology back where teams are afraid to play us. 

Offline Mr_Shane

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Re: Rawk round table LFC 4-0 v FFC
« Reply #74 on: November 11, 2013, 08:06:36 pm »
would certainly seem like the longest 90 minutes of their lives, if they worry about whether they will concede 3 before they even step onto the field.  ;D

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Re: Rawk round table LFC 4-0 v FFC
« Reply #75 on: November 11, 2013, 08:07:11 pm »
although we did get beat by Soton.

Who are third in the league and with the best goals against stat......so they aren't a pushover.
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Re: Rawk round table LFC 4-0 v FFC
« Reply #76 on: November 11, 2013, 08:07:45 pm »
Interestingly, Johnson only won 2 out of 5 1v1's. Henderson had one 1v1 and won it. So you can clearly see the mentality aspect of what you mention - Johnson likes to take players on (although I would say, as I always have, that he's not particularly "good" at it, in a technical sense - but he makes the effort, and against certain teams that can be just as good as actually winning them), while Henderson prefers to pass the ball and use a combination to beat a player. It all comes down to risk/reward psychology. It's no surprise that Johnson started out as a forward when he was young. Henderson was probably always a central midfielder, or a fullback, as a kid. It wouldn't surprise me if that was the case. But it's all about mentality, and the willingness to take the risk on a 1v1 is the mentality of the forward, and it informs a lot of Johnson's play.
While I agree with that I do think Johnson loses more 1 v 1s than he wins because he always comes inside, into and around the penalty area. Quite often resulting in a toe-poke from the defender hopefully going to another 1 of our man close to edge of box (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NYLN9Xfxun0). If he went down the line he'd have more success but he never does (don't think that suits our game or his). Of course I'm not saying he's a brilliant dribbler - but what he does do is remain a constant threat and allows the ball to fall to Suarez in the area more often - and given Suarez is Suarez that's pretty valuable.

Even though he comes inside it adds width to our game and allows us to overload that side (to great effect vs sides like Fulham). How many times do we see Gerrard branch one out to Johnson and an attack is immediately created.

Offline shanks_legend

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Re: Rawk round table LFC 4-0 v FFC
« Reply #77 on: November 11, 2013, 08:16:51 pm »
I'd just like to say a word about Lucas, possession and pressing—it should perhaps go in the Lucas Gerrard thread, but it's come to me thinking about this last game, to some extent in juxtaposition with the one before it.

Anway, it seems to me that Lucas is a very good defensive midfielder when we play deep, (but he can be got at if the space he patrols is overloaded with opposition midfielders) but that he is an absolute monster when we move up the pitch and press and exert pressure in front of him, controlling the ball more and pressing when we lose it. Two reasons for this (well, the ones I've noticed most anyway). When we're up the pitch and pressing well, the passes out from the opposition are often hurried, sometimes panicked, and certainly unable to be timed to the run of a forward leaving his marker (in any direction I suppose, but mainly back to the ball). Lucas is just remarkably good at reading the game from that advance defensive position, and he absolutely hoovers up these less than optimal passes. He flat out bullies opposition forwards and midfielders because his reading and sharpness to the ball is better than theirs, and defensively in this phase of the game I think he's as good as Mascherano was—he doesn't cover the ground as quickly, or destroy quite as aggressively, but he has some Xabi mixed in—he reads the game better and his tackles are frequently not full on tackles because they don't have to be—he's arrived at the optimal moment (and he can be freer about it because up the pitch it doesn't matter so much if he mistimes it).

Secondly, his distribution after gaining possession in mid or advanced midfield is very effective—quick and accurate—wide or down the middle, giving extra time on the ball to Gerrard, Coutinho and the front two even in a shortened field—and when we play forward, most of the passes available are well within his most effective range. Finally, it's when we finally manage to move the whole team forward that Lucas finally turns up on the edge of, or even in the box. Not often, but when the opportunity presents itself—which it will more frequently now that we've got more than one or two main attacking threats to pull the opposition about. My feeling is, taken all in all, that when we press and the whole team moves up the pitch, Lucas becomes absolutely world class—and as such, I'd like to see us do it rather more, not because I'm a particular fan of Lucas, but because I think that the benefit of his play at its top level is really worth looking for, and I also think it is more likely what Rodgers has in mind, and that it will bring us more success than will the sitting deep stuff.

Finally, I've heard people say on here that we don't have the personnel to play the pressing/possession game properly, and I'm wondering why that is. The only ones who it would seem can't do it/don't much like it (if you've got Enrique and Johnson in the team) are Gerrard (struggles on the pressing side for a whole game due to legs, and tends to want to release the long ball quickly, because he can do so devastatingly, but it doesn't bring the whole team up the pitch), perhaps Skertl , just in not being so enthusiastic about a high line (although, I'm not longer sure this is true—I've not been his biggest fan, but one wonders how much it has been about confidence with him given a couple of recent performances—the too many touches, the panic out wide, the wanting to drop further back—maybe they were signs of a player not trusting himself and he will continue to improve), and Mignolet. I watched Napoli and Juventus today, and Pepe, who also made a couple of quite extraordinarily fine stops and wasn't at fault at all for any of the goals (all three are worth looking for by the way... actually, the whole game, just to watch Pirlo take the piss even in a game of two excellent teams full of good players playing well), just looks so at ease with the ball at his feet by comparison. Is that it then. Three players don't fit (sort of) the pressing model and thus we can only do it against weak teams? If Skertl improves and Mignolet adapts, could Lucas play in front of Gerrard (Gerrard as his own version of Pirlo)?

um, sorry, rather longer ramble than I expected.

Thats a really good post mate, and I agree with all of it. Id just like to add that Coutinhos pressing and defensive work is immense. Not sure about Gerrard as a deep lying playmaker. He doesn't seem to have the patience
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Offline stockdam

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Re: Rawk round table LFC 4-0 v FFC
« Reply #78 on: November 11, 2013, 08:17:18 pm »
So with a succession plan for Johnson needed, retooling Sterling's game as an attacking fullback in the Johnson fashion could be the best thing for both club and player.

As an attacking fullback maybe.......however I also like my fullbacks to have a bit of height and strength to help clear crosses and defend in the box. Sterling would have to be very cute at "leaning" into players. I just think he's too light to be a great fullback and would need to up his tackling.
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Re: Rawk round table LFC 4-0 v FFC
« Reply #79 on: November 11, 2013, 08:19:56 pm »
As an attacking fullback maybe.......however I also like my fullbacks to have a bit of height and strength to help clear crosses and defend in the box. Sterling would have to be very cute at "leaning" into players. I just think he's too light to be a great fullback and would need to up his tackling.

That's why I said "retool his game" :)
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