Topic: Why we should keep Lucas?

[Fordy]

Have the mods been on a poster recruitment mission?

[leivapool]

Have the mods been on a poster recruitment mission?

No idea, I just wish they'd put a poll up like I suggested too many pages ago so we can see in numbers what people think of Lucas - this thread is way too long 

[Fordy]

What  a sentence, says nothing at all

1. What do you mean by "man the f**k up"  what is your definition of "man" ? convince me pls that I am wrong qnd it is not just male chouvinist cliche.
He is going to have a baby soon, this is the only proof of manhood necessary for me.     

And what is not manly about Lucas, is he too decent, does not go to pubs, does not womanize, does not make vulgar tackles like Mascherano? has good manners? does not use 4 letters words?  Explain it to me, I am a quick learner, if there is something to learn

You think he is coward? Lucas?  well , have your eyes checked.

He does want the ball, demands the ball, not always get it from his team mates.and pls specify which different things he should try. I am all for it, but the coach has to suggest this to him, or demand it from him, try it in trainings,  until then, he has to fulfill his role, nobody else will do it for him. 

When I say man up I am not talking about being about to produce kids. I mean that he needs to be tougher in challenges and tackles over all.

As for he wanting the ball I fully believe he doesnt command the centre of midfield in most of the games he has played.

I have said it before and I will say it again to become a top player you need to play your own game and not be a teacher pet and follow orders. Currently top player he is not or do you want to argue with that statement from me as well?

[Smashedin]

You fit neither category so no.

Do you want some sort of adulation for stating that Xavi is better than Lucas?

Give a 5/6 million pound replacement?

You ask me for an alternative, which i've told you, is not what i'm paid/trained to do, then you pull out an entirely irrelevant point and narrow down the search requirements to 5/6 millions pounds. Is that honestly your argument?

But i agree, Lucas is worth about 5/6 millions pounds. Good spot.

[The 5th Benitle]

Have the mods been on a poster recruitment mission?

I don't think so, but it appears opening registration may have let in some refugees from TIA.

[The 5th Benitle]

Absolutely excellent article here on Lucas.  It's long, but if you don't 'get' what Lucas brings to the team , I'm talking to you here Laergoth, Fordy, smashedin! then maybe this article will help.

It's long, but you really should persevere with it, you might then understand what we see in Lucas.  (Its too long to paste the whole article)

http://liverpool.theoffside.com/miscellaneous/liverpool-class-and-the-ptolemaic-world-view.html

Excellent article that. Sadly they won't read it. Or if they do they will dismiss it as being written by someone who has 'Lucas tinted glasses' or some such other nonsensical bullshit.

If I could change the world, I would make people open their eyes to stuff they don't want to believe.

[Sangria]

For me, Lucas has the feel of a Molby about him.  I'm not by any means saying he's as good as Molby (yet) but I really feel there is the chance he will grow into a Molby-esque player (perhaps 'grow' is the wrong word there, sorry Jan!).  If you watch him play closely he always seems to have time.  I remember watching Molby and being amazed that no matter how quick the game was, how breakneck the pace, he seemed to have the ability to slow the whole thing down and have the time and space to do exactly what he wanted.  For me, Lucas is getting that way and he's also starting to become more and more of a box to box type player which can only be good for the team.  As some have said, his game in the final third needs developing but that will come.

Alonso was Molby. Lucas is the guy Dalglish picked ahead of Molby.

[Fordy]

I don't think so, but it appears opening registration may have let in some refugees from TIA.

Well the mods need to look into it.

[Fordy]

Excellent article that. Sadly they won't read it. Or if they do they will dismiss it as being written by someone who has 'Lucas tinted glasses' or some such other nonsensical bullshit.

If I could change the world, I would make people open their eyes to stuff they don't want to believe.

Just for you mate I am going to read it all and open my eyes and come back when an honest view as always.

[The 5th Benitle]

Well the mods need to look into it.

To be fair mate these dudes, while I fundamentally disagree with their opinion, at least argue coherently. I suspect by the way we are talking about different people

[Visigoth33]

Well, Laergoth, Fordy,& smashedin are entitled to their own opinions about Lucas & brazil.but for many of us, we see the potential of what Lucas can become in the future after improving in the last 2 yrs playing in a struggling side.Lucas reminds me of Dunga's playing career- both of italian descent, criticized for not being "Brazilian" enough and blamed for any defeats of their team.Players who don''t crave the limelight of other star players but who will shoulder the team through difficult times with their leadership & commitment.I feel Lucas time will come in 2014 & the Copa América by leading Brazil as captain. I think we need to show a little faith in him like all our managers have.

[The 5th Benitle]

Just for you mate I am going to read it all and open my eyes and come back when an honest view as always.

That's all anyone can ask. And by the way I don't think one article should ever change a strongly held point of view. I suspect that Lucas Leiva playing in a better team would, though.

[Sangria]

Just for you mate I am going to read it all and open my eyes and come back when an honest view as always.

Try and get MKB's compilation of Lucas's contributions in the Brazil-Ukraine match.

[The 5th Benitle]

Try and get MKB's compilation of Lucas's contributions in the Brazil-Ukraine match.

There's one by ElAlonso on the article Fordy's promised to read mate.

[Terry de Niro]

Try and get MKB's compilation of Lucas's contributions in the Brazil-Ukraine match.

Someone posted a cracking one on here v Chelsea at home, this season.

[wardides]

Without sounding like a smart arse, why in gods name is this thread still open, when other idiotic threads are closed?

[Terry de Niro]

Without sounding like a smart arse, why in gods name is this thread still open, when other idiotic threads are closed?

Keeping all the idiots in one place?   

[wardides]

Keeping all the idiots in one place?   

Haha never thought of it like that.Well put.

[Billy The Kid]

The lad needs to man the fuck up, want the ball and try different things.

What a pile of absolute steaming shite that comment is. Lucas needs to man the fuck up? I seem to recall Michael Essien kicking the fuck out of him when he was a mere 21 year old fresh faced kid. And what did Lucas do? Did he cower and hide like most players of that age would when pitted against an animal like Essien? Did he fuck. He kept coming back for more. He may have had is ass handed to him that day, but he didn't shit out of one single tackle, and never shirked when he had to but his body on the line. There aren't too many players that I can think of who would have the bollox to take on Essien physically, but Lucas tried it, despite being a fresh off the plane 21 year old.

I also seem to recall him getting battered away at Stoke. He put his head in for a ball and almost got his jaw broke. He didn't roll about and fucking moan though did he? He got up and won the next tackle. Do you recall the challenge he made against West Ham 2 years ago? The one where he again put his head in when there was an elbow coming right for his face? He took it right on the cheek bone. Remember when he gashed the under side of his eye? And then went crashing into the next tackle that came his way? Stop talking bollox mate. Lucas needs to man the fuck up? Give me a fucking break. He may not have the physique of Carra, but I'll tell you what, his balls for the fight are just as big as Carra's. No fucking doubt in my mind about that.

Also, your comment about him wanting the ball? What the fuck is that all about? Seriously? The lad is always putting himself in positions to receive possession. Always. You will rarely see him running at less than a jog. He is always on the go. Should he demand the ball a bit more, and be a bit more authoritative? I would say yes, but that will come in time. I'd hardly call him a shirk merchant like. And as for him trying different things, well I suggest you pay just a tad more attention to him the next time he plays. Some of the things he does may appear elementary, but they are actually quiet clever and inventive. He is by no means the finished article yet, but we have a seriously good player in the making in this boy. If you can't see it then, well, I don't know what else to say to you 

[leivapool]

Try and get MKB's compilation of Lucas's contributions in the Brazil-Ukraine match.

http://www.footylounge.com/films//elalonso/lucas-leiva-vs-ukraine-video_b9403cea5.html

[The 5th Benitle]

Keeping all the idiots in one place?   

Cheers mate

[bleedsred1978]

You ask me for an alternative, which i've told you, is not what i'm paid/trained to do, then you pull out an entirely irrelevant point and narrow down the search requirements to 5/6 millions pounds. Is that honestly your argument?

But i agree, Lucas is worth about 5/6 millions pounds. Good spot.

How is it irrelevant?

We paid 5.5 million for Lucas, he would be worth double that now imo.

There's not much point giving alternatives that cost 6 times the price because your not comparing apples with apples. If you cant express your opinions because you have not been trained or dont get paid to do so then I think that's a bit sad.

Give a real world replacement maybe?

Lucas is a good footballer but not at the level or for that matter the price bracket of Xavi and I don't think anyone here is saying that he is at that level at the moment. He is however still young for the position he plays and is improving all the time.

 

[Terry de Niro]

Cheers mate

[Sangria]

There's one by ElAlonso on the article Fordy's promised to read mate.

That's the one I meant. I keep associating MKB with player-specific compilations.

[Smashedin]

How is it irrelevant?

We paid 5.5 million for Lucas, he would be worth double that now imo.

There's not much point giving alternatives that cost 6 times the price because your not comparing apples with apples. If you cant express your opinions because you have not been trained or dont get paid to do so then I think that's a bit sad.

Give a real world replacement maybe?

Lucas is a good footballer but not at the level or for that matter the price bracket of Xavi and I don't think anyone here is saying that he is at that level at the moment. He is however still young for the position he plays and is improving all the time.

Are you aware of what you're writing half the time? I can't show you a world class player for 5-6 millions pounds, because i don't go round scouting. It's a pretty simple concept to grasp. The point i was trying to make is that i can go around naming brilliant players i hear in the media, but it A) doesn't mean its going to happen and B) and any idiot can do it, so why bother.

Whether i have a new player lined up or not, does not change that fact that Lucas is mediocre.

If i see a leaking tap, i won't ignore it just because i don't know how to fix it.

I really cannot simplify this point any further

[Not funny reecehenebry]

Are you aware of what you're writing half the time? I can't show you a world class player for 5-6 millions pounds, because i don't go round scouting. It's a pretty simple concept to grasp. The point i was trying to make is that i can go around naming brilliant players i hear in the media, but it A) doesn't mean its going to happen and B) and any idiot can do it, so why bother.

Whether i have a new player lined up or not, does not change that fact that Lucas is mediocre.

If i see a leaking tap, i won't ignore it just because i don't know how to fix it.

I really cannot simplify this point any further

See the problem is lad you wouldn't be capable of differentiating between a leaking tap and you pissing on your shoes.

Which do you need to fix?

[The 5th Benitle]

Are you aware of what you're writing half the time? I can't show you a world class player for 5-6 millions pounds, because i don't go round scouting. It's a pretty simple concept to grasp. The point i was trying to make is that i can go around naming brilliant players i hear in the media, but it A) doesn't mean its going to happen and B) and and idiot can do it, so why bother.

Whether i have a new player lined up or not, does not change that fact that Lucas is mediocre.

If i see a leaking tap, i won't ignore it just because i don't know how to fix it.

I really cannot simplify this point any further

Your arguments are actually pretty well thought out. The problem is that the central tenet of them is this:

Lucas is mediocre.

And I don't  think you want to be convinced otherwise.

[Billy The Kid]

I really cannot simplify this point any further

You don't have to mate. Your simplicity is quiet apparent to be honest.

[Fordy]

There's one by ElAlonso on the article Fordy's promised to read mate.

Well I have read but would like to start by saying what a game Lucas had against the Ukaine. Shall we make him play in yellow instead of red? Seriously I must watch the game wearing a blind fold cause I just see "safe" Lucas. Apart from a few games -Utd and Chelsea etc Lucas gets lost in the game.

Now how he played against the Ukaine is what we need to see from Lucas week in, week out but sadly he falls short for me. Seeing him plays like that that I am think that maybe it due to confidence. Not confidence in his own ability but confidence in the players around him. Whats the point in passing it out wide when they're not going to do anything with it so keep it simple and pass to the nearest man.

So maybe the person who wrote the article is right to a certain degree, maybe Lucas suffers due to our poor defence and average attack.

[bleedsred1978]

Are you aware of what you're writing half the time? I can't show you a world class player for 5-6 millions pounds, because i don't go round scouting. It's a pretty simple concept to grasp. The point i was trying to make is that i can go around naming brilliant players i hear in the media, but it A) doesn't mean its going to happen and B) and any idiot can do it, so why bother.

Whether i have a new player lined up or not, does not change that fact that Lucas is mediocre.

If i see a leaking tap, i won't ignore it just because i don't know how to fix it.

I really cannot simplify this point any further

Excuse me? Don't blame me if your hugely inflated sense of self gives you a false sense of security which leads on to an illusion in your head that you have no problems getting your points across. I dont need you to dumb down your views mate I just need you to back up your opinions with some facts ,which you thus far have failed to do.

[The 5th Benitle]

Fordy, fair play mate. And yeah I'd love to see him playing like that too. I know it's only one game but it does tend to support the theory that Lucas will look much better when playing with better players, particularly wide ones.
It's funny, people laugh when someone says 'Lucas would be excellent in Barcelona's midfield' but he really would.

[Smashedin]

See the problem is lad you wouldn't be capable of differentiating between a leaking tap and you pissing on your shoes.

Which do you need to fix?

You don't have to mate. Your simplicity is quiet apparent to be honest.

As demonstrated above by dumb and dumber, any opinions that are contrary to the contemporary fashion, are met with personal attacks. The inability of some to put together a structured argument is worrying. Till this point in the debate there was a certain level of maturity to be found in the arguments.

Well done guys, you've done yourselves proud.

[Not funny reecehenebry]

Well I have read but would like to start by saying what a game Lucas had against the Ukaine. Shall we make him play in yellow instead of red? Seriously I must watch the game wearing a blind fold cause I just see "safe" Lucas. Apart from a few games -Utd and Chelsea etc Lucas gets lost in the game.

Now how he played against the Ukaine is what we need to see from Lucas week in, week out but sadly he falls short for me. Seeing him plays like that that I am think that maybe it due to confidence. Not confidence in his own ability but confidence in the players around him. Whats the point in passing it out wide when they're not going to do anything with it so keep it simple and pass to the nearest man.

So maybe the person who wrote the article is right to a certain degree, maybe Lucas suffers due to our poor defence and average attack.

More down to us having two sets of players and no-one to meld them together. Aurelio, Agger, Raul, Lucas and Maxi play one type and Torres, Gerrard, Johnson, Kuyt and Carra another. The first relieves pressure by holding onto the ball and the others tend to 'go for it' with passes ect. . As a result we land in the middle. The first set are made to press the ball, not tackle. Which we need because the second set lose the ball quite a bit.
Masch was that man for us.

Thing is the first set play the way sangria pointed out Shankly wanted while our local Liverpool lads play the GH and early Rafa way.
Or to put it another way the first set play level three as they learned from youth while the second set play level two.

Kuyt has the brain to play level three but his reflexes mean he can only play a level 2 game.

[Not funny reecehenebry]

As demonstrated above by dumb and dumber, any opinions that are contrary to the contemporary fashion, are met with personal attacks. The inability of some to put together a structured argument is worrying. Till this point in the debate there was a certain level of maturity to be found in the arguments.

Well done guys, you've done yourselves proud.

Sorry if you saw my post as a personal attack. My point was clear, I don't think you understand the problem, therefore your solution is flawed. I was however trying to bring a bit of lightheartedness to it, something that seems to have gone over your rather large head.

[Beninger]

It's been said before, but Lucas starts to shine when players around him start to shine.  He fits into the game as a gear.  People point out how he plays against Chelsea and the mancs, but maybe we should see how the team in general plays against a given opposition.  It seems like he shines in the big matches because the team is up for it, and I think that same synopsis goes for all of our good players.  Even Stevie hardly elevates his game anymore, when the team is looking like it can't get out of first gear...

[Sangria]

Well I have read but would like to start by saying what a game Lucas had against the Ukaine. Shall we make him play in yellow instead of red? Seriously I must watch the game wearing a blind fold cause I just see "safe" Lucas. Apart from a few games -Utd and Chelsea etc Lucas gets lost in the game.

Now how he played against the Ukaine is what we need to see from Lucas week in, week out but sadly he falls short for me. Seeing him plays like that that I am think that maybe it due to confidence. Not confidence in his own ability but confidence in the players around him. Whats the point in passing it out wide when they're not going to do anything with it so keep it simple and pass to the nearest man.

So maybe the person who wrote the article is right to a certain degree, maybe Lucas suffers due to our poor defence and average attack.

It's a point I've been making, throughout the last season. I kept arguing Lucas-Mascherano isn't actually bad, and in one important aspect, which the team misses now, it was among the best in the world. The Lucas-Mascherano pairing would never get bullied off the pitch by any other midfield, no matter how illustrious they supposedly were. With thair pair, Liverpool can guarantee at least 50% of the midfield, quite possibly more. Have that pair in midfield, and the manager needn't worry about the opposition controlling the game, and can exert considerable control himself. It was what was around them, notably in the wide attacking areas, which needed to be improved. A left winger who could retain possession, and the rest of the team would fall into place. That was why I said Riera was the most important player according to the personnel Liverpool had.

Of course, thanks to Purslow, most of that has fallen apart now, and a rebuilding job needs to be done which wasn't necessary had someone with any wits about them been running the club. But it's still necessary to see the situation in the right way, in order to get the right conclusions from it. That's why I seldom talk about personal qualities of each player, but always talk about the language of discussion. If you're not looking from the right perspective, you'll never see what you need to see.

[Breitner]

For me, Lucas has the feel of a Molby about him.  I'm not by any means saying he's as good as Molby (yet) but I really feel there is the chance he will grow into a Molby-esque player (perhaps 'grow' is the wrong word there, sorry Jan!).  If you watch him play closely he always seems to have time.  I remember watching Molby and being amazed that no matter how quick the game was, how breakneck the pace, he seemed to have the ability to slow the whole thing down and have the time and space to do exactly what he wanted.

Nothing like him. Ignoring the obvious physical and mental presence, Jan had the ability to play at his own pace but his short passing was far more incisive and up to the tempo of English football. Though he has his moments, Lucas is just one paced and slow to react.

[leivapool]

Well I have read but would like to start by saying what a game Lucas had against the Ukaine. Shall we make him play in yellow instead of red? Seriously I must watch the game wearing a blind fold cause I just see "safe" Lucas. Apart from a few games -Utd and Chelsea etc Lucas gets lost in the game.

Now how he played against the Ukaine is what we need to see from Lucas week in, week out but sadly he falls short for me. Seeing him plays like that that I am think that maybe it due to confidence. Not confidence in his own ability but confidence in the players around him. Whats the point in passing it out wide when they're not going to do anything with it so keep it simple and pass to the nearest man.

So maybe the person who wrote the article is right to a certain degree, maybe Lucas suffers due to our poor defence and average attack.

Fordy I certainly appreciate you taking the time to read and watch.  And also that you can see how good Lucas can be.  I think that is my main frustration with the Lucas threads.  If everyone took the time to watch what Lucas can actually do, rather than judging him on the his past performances or our poor team performances most of the Lucas threads would never begin.

As you saw against Ukraine, Lucas is a very good player, easily good enough to play for us.  But, to get the best out of him he needs a certain type of player around him. As someone has just pointed out, Aurelio, Maxi, Mereiles Lucas and in my opinion Torres play the pass and move possession football, Gerrard, Kuyt, Johnson and Carra play another type.  To see the very best of Lucas, as Brazil do, he needs the pass and move players around him.  For me, this is the style of football I think we should be playing and if we do, then Lucas will turn in to one hell of a player.

[Not funny reecehenebry]

Fordy I certainly appreciate you taking the time to read and watch.  And also that you can see how good Lucas can be.  I think that is my main frustration with the Lucas threads.  If everyone took the time to watch what Lucas can actually do, rather than judging him on the his past performances or our poor team performances most of the Lucas threads would never begin.

As you saw against Ukraine, Lucas is a very good player, easily good enough to play for us.  But, to get the best out of him he needs a certain type of player around him. As someone has just pointed out, Aurelio, Maxi, Meireles Lucas and in my opinion Torres play the pass and move possession football, Gerrard, Kuyt, Johnson and Carra play another type.  To see the very best of Lucas, as Brazil do, he needs the pass and move players around him.  For me, this is the style of football I think we should be playing and if we do, then Lucas will turn in to one hell of a player.

I pointed out the difference, however Torres isn't a pass and move player. Doesn't matter though because he shouldn't be anywhere other than 18 yards from goal. We really need a player that can link Lucas to Torres.
Kills me to see Aquilani in Italy because he was that man. Once again looking back we see Rafa had so much right.

If I was to demand a player now it would now it would be Ever Banega. I believe we could start playing as a collective with him in front of Raul and Lucas.
Lucas and Raul can run a midfield and have done so when played there together. Add Gerrard or Poulsen and you fuck it up. Bad midfielders play better with three in midfield. Great midfielders play worse because all the space gets used. I always hark back to Alonso and Masch ruining the Chelsea midfield of Lampard, Ballack and Essien.

[Fordy]

Fordy I certainly appreciate you taking the time to read and watch.  And also that you can see how good Lucas can be.  I think that is my main frustration with the Lucas threads.  If everyone took the time to watch what Lucas can actually do, rather than judging him on the his past performances or our poor team performances most of the Lucas threads would never begin.

As you saw against Ukraine, Lucas is a very good player, easily good enough to play for us.  But, to get the best out of him he needs a certain type of player around him. As someone has just pointed out, Aurelio, Maxi, Meireles Lucas and in my opinion Torres play the pass and move possession football, Gerrard, Kuyt, Johnson and Carra play another type.  To see the very best of Lucas, as Brazil do, he needs the pass and move players around him.  For me, this is the style of football I think we should be playing and if we do, then Lucas will turn in to one hell of a player.

Fordy, fair play mate. And yeah I'd love to see him playing like that too. I know it's only one game but it does tend to support the theory that Lucas will look much better when playing with better players, particularly wide ones.
It's funny, people laugh when someone says 'Lucas would be excellent in Barcelona's midfield' but he really would.

To be fair lads it is all what he does in a red shirt and not a yellow one but I can understand why you 2 and others think he is a good player.

However it is about the players around him and with all respect at this moment he would be better suited at Bolton or Blackpool but I can see the reason why people say he would do well at a Barca. People might say they is worlds a part Barca and Blackpool but they play attacking football, football with pace. Currently sorry to say we dont. Our wingers are slow and we count on one forward to score.

I have said in Kuyt threads that Lucas/Raul is killing him but Kuyt is killing Lucas for me. Two new out and out wingers and we might get to see the Lucas that I have just seen on that you tube clip.

He is still average at this moment though