Topic: Why we should keep Lucas?

[AnnieRoad(Un)Faithful]

"If Lucas was plying his trade in La Liga, there would be a wank fest on here, to try to lure him in to our team.

No, there would not.

[AnnieRoad(Un)Faithful]

Yes, of course Lucas should be part of our future plans. But I don't think he'll ever be good enough to be a starter in a team challenging for the league title. But he'd be the perfect back up, no doubt about it. I think he'll reach his ultimate peak in 2011 or 2012, and then he'll be able to hang onto that level for five years or so. Steady player, but will be no club legend.

Exactly how I feel about his potential.

I really cannot understand why so much praise is being heaped on him.

Sure, he's improved, but I really don't think he's anywhere near world-class. Yet he's getting treated as if he's the best midfielder we've ever had - which he clearly is not.

[The 5th Benitle]

Thanks.

I actually think the 5th Benitle talks alot of sense 

Thank you kindly

[The 5th Benitle]

Sure, he's improved, but I really don't think he's anywhere near world-class. Yet he's getting treated as if he's the best midfielder we've ever had - which he clearly is not.

Ah, now I remember why I jumped on you yesterday mate, it's exactly this kind of over exaggeration. Where has anyone said anything remotely close to that?

[AnnieRoad(Un)Faithful]

Ah, now I remember why I jumped on you yesterday mate, it's exactly this kind of over exaggeration. Where has anyone said anything remotely close to that?

I have seen posts where people have been putting him in the same bracket as some legends and I just don't buy it. Not by yourself, as well you know.

Let's hope Lucas has a good game tomorrow. Without Cahill inbetween the midfield and strikers for them, he should have an easier time of it. Feillani is a big boy though, and tough to deal with.

[steveeastend]

Yet he's getting treated as if he's the best midfielder we've ever had - which he clearly is not.

Iīve been discussing Lucas pretty much from day one and canīt remember anyone claiming this.

[Art Vandelay]

Why we should keep Lucas?

Simple. Because he's our best central midfielder.

[The 5th Benitle]

Iīve been discussing Lucas pretty much from day one and canīt remember anyone claiming this.

Me neither. The problem is, annieroad is clearly exaggerating. I don't mind that at all. His views on the player are perfectly sensible. But the chances are some moron will come in, see this exaggeration, think that we genuinely are saying that he's our best ever midfielder (which no-one has said, the very idea is laughable) and kick off about it. That's why these threads always end up the same way.

In the same way, Lucas role in the team gets compared to other players and this is seen as us saying he is 'as good as' those players. Normally happens with Busquets these days. A perfectly fair analysis of their respective roles ends up with some halfwit saying 'how can you say Lucas is as good as Busquets/Ballack/Xavi/Khedira/whoever? when we didn't in the first place. Other halfwits smell the blood in the water, come charging in believeing fully that what the first halfwit said was actually our standpoint, and don't read the original tactical comparison.

All hell insues.

Rinse and repeat.

[steveeastend]

Main point is that he got his facts wrong, which suggests to me he is a fool who makes up facts without checking them. Lucas is not a starter for Brazil.

Second point is that this is a pretty mediocre Brazil team, and he still isn't getting in.

What the fuck are you talking about?

The whole point about being a smart ass is to be smart in the first place. But this is far from being smart, itīs not even stupid, itīs just not true.

While Lucas is not the best midfielder we ever had itīs a FACT that he is a regular for brasil NOW.
A brasil international never has been a mediocre team during the last 20 years or so, which is visible to see at the FIFA ranking if you dare to have a look at it. To call any team of the top 10 mediocre is a brave statement of pure ignorance. 

[Smashedin]

Personally I hope we build the team to suit Lucas's strengths, that the style of football I like.

This is the exaggeration Annieroad is talking about. Building a team around Lucas?!

While Lucas is not the best midfielder we ever had itīs a FACT that he is a regular for brasil NOW.
A brasil international never has been a mediocre team during the last 20 years or so, which is visible to see at the FIFA ranking if you dare to have a look at it. To call any team of the top 10 mediocre is a brave statement of pure ignorance. 

England is somehow 6th, which indicates what BS the FIFA rankings are.

[Sangria]

Why should we keep Lucas? Because he's an easy litmus test for who understands football and who doesn't. It's not what they think of him, it's how they think of him that separates those who understand football and those who don't.

[Fordy]

Simple. Because he's our best central midfielder.

Well we need better. I would keep him but if your talking me he is our best CM then we're fucked and its no shock we're midtable.

[steveeastend]

This is the exaggeration Annieroad is talking about. Building a team around Lucas?!

England is somehow 6th, which indicates what BS the FIFA rankings are.

Ok, brasil is top 5 for almost 15 years now, better? The point is that brasil is NOT a mediocre team. If you become a regular or only being invited is a sign for being a class player. Nothing more, nothing less.

And that point that somebody WISHES to build a team around Lucas doesnīt make him the best midfielder we ever had. To wish that the midfield is build around him is not an exaggeration, itīs a wish ffs. She doesnīt write she expects this..

[Smashedin]

Ok, brasil is top 5 for almost 15 years now, better? The point is that brasil is NOT a mediocre team. If you become a regular or only being invited is a sign for being a class player. Nothing more, nothing less.

And that point that somebody WISHES to build a team around Lucas doesnīt make him the best midfielder we ever had. To wish that the midfield is build around him is not an exaggeration, itīs a wish ffs. She doesnīt write she expects this..

Even a midfield is going too far. He is a squad player at best. He is a starter now because we're mid table at the moment, and even there he doesn't really excel.

[Sangria]

This is the exaggeration Annieroad is talking about. Building a team around Lucas?!

Cor. What was that I said about the language of discussion and how it limits discussion? Lots of examples of it, even in that specific direction which I described.

[steveeastend]

He is a squad player at best.

If it this would be the case Kenny wouldnīt play him. So in fact, NOW he is a Liverpool regular for the whole season. You think heīs not good enough for that. Fair enough. I do think he is.

[Art Vandelay]

Well we need better. I would keep him but if your talking me he is our best CM then we're fucked and its no shock we're midtable.

Of course we need better players in midfield, but he's our best player in there and I'd certainly replace all of the other cm's before even contemplating moving Lucas on.

[bleedsred1978]

If it this would be the case Kenny wouldnīt play him. So in fact, NOW he is a Liverpool regular for the whole season. You think heīs not good enough for that. Fair enough. I do think he is.

I agree.

How many of the rest of our midfield would get a look in for Brazil?

[BazC]

The rate at which he's improved in the last 2 seasons tells me that he's got a big future here.

We just need to put him in the right system with the right players.

You could open *any* player's thread and criticise them 10x more than you could praise them these days. As a team, they're nothing. They haven't won anything, the don't look like winning anything and I don't think it's sticking my neck out to say that they won't win anything.

Fuck half of them off, salvage the handful of them that you can, then rebuild for the future.

Rafa failed to adapt to Alonso leaving, Hodgson truly fucked this team up and now Kenny's left with 6 months to bring everyone together to undo the damage. I wonder if he will not because of his own abilities, but because of the players he has to work with.

We need players who actually have some ambition. I truly wonder about the ambition of our players these days (and they include the Torres' and Gerrards of this world).

[Smashedin]

Cor. What was that I said about the language of discussion and how it limits discussion? Lots of examples of it, even in that specific direction which I described.

I honestly don't know what you're saying half the time.

[Sangria]

The rate at which he's improved in the last 2 seasons tells me that he's got a big future here.

We just need to put him in the right system with the right players.

You could open *any* player's thread and criticise them 10x more than you could praise them these days. As a team, they're nothing. They haven't won anything, the don't look like winning anything and I don't think it's sticking my neck out to say that they won't win anything.

Fuck half of them off, salvage the handful of them that you can, then rebuild for the future.

Rafa failed to adapt to Alonso leaving, Hodgson truly fucked this team up and now Kenny's left with 6 months to bring everyone together to undo the damage. I wonder if he will not because of his own abilities, but because of the players he has to work with.

We need players who actually have some ambition. I truly wonder about the ambition of our players these days (and they include the Torres' and Gerrards of this world).

In the level 3 thread, I came up with a couple of provocative posts to try and shake up the discussion a bit. In one, I suggested Joey Barton as the kind of destabilising on-field and off-field figure to make the players think again about what they're doing (psychotic enough to make an impact, disposable enough, so I thought until I recently read about his Newcastle contract, to be easily fecked off once he'd served his purpose). In the other, I suggested selling off the outliers (Torres, Gerrard) to rebuild the team in a more coherent shape, based on youth. I probably differed in you in that I still trusted Benitez to have the vision to do such a job.

[Sangria]

I honestly don't know what you're saying half the time.

Think collective vs the individual. Read Shankly's descriptions of Liverpool's approach to football. See the difference in language between them and your posts. As I've said, it's not what people think of Lucas that separates those who understand football. It's how they think of him. Go back and read leivapool's post which you replied to. Re-read it until you understand how you've misunderstood the point. Ignorance is not unacceptable. I'm ignorant about a lot of things. But I know my ignorance when I see it, and I either trust those who know better, or I try to educate myself. I don't try to impose my ignorance on others on the principle that everyone is entitled to an opinion.

[Smashedin]

Think collective vs the individual. Read Shankly's descriptions of Liverpool's approach to football. See the difference in language between them and your posts. As I've said, it's not what people think of Lucas that separates those who understand football. It's how they think of him. Go back and read leivapool's post which you replied to. Re-read it until you understand how you've misunderstood the point. Ignorance is not unacceptable. I'm ignorant about a lot of things. But I know my ignorance when I see it, and I either trust those who know better, or I try to educate myself. I don't try to impose my ignorance on others on the principle that everyone is entitled to an opinion.

Firstly, your whole 'philosophical' approach to this debate is weak. I've yet to see you put it together and apply it to the situation. Asking me to do it is not going to work, because i don't know what 'philosophy' you're referring too; or even whether it actually exists.

Secondly, go figure out the difference between ignorance and opinion. I've said nothing that would suggest i'm trying to impose my opinion. All i've done is participate in the debate by asking questions as to Lucas' strengths; none of which have been answered. To suggest i'm ignorant on a subject matter based on my sparse amount of posts, is arrogance to the highest level.

Answer me this, 'Mr. Collective vs the individual': What part of our play do YOU think Lucas is responsible for? In his capacity of DM, delivery and breaking up play has been poor this season, and in his capacity of CM, setting up attacks has been dire.

We all know how everyone loves an underdog, but in competitive sport you need the best to win.

[Sangria]

Firstly, your whole 'philosophical' approach to this debate is weak. I've yet to see you put it together and apply it to the situation. Asking me to do it is not going to work, because i don't know what 'philosophy' you're referring too; or even whether it actually exists.

Secondly, go figure out the difference between ignorance and opinion. I've said nothing that would suggest i'm trying to impose my opinion. All i've done is participate in the debate by asking questions as to Lucas' strengths; none of which have been answered. To suggest i'm ignorant on a subject matter based on my sparse amount of posts, is arrogance to the highest level.

Answer me this, 'Mr. Collective vs the individual': What part of our play do YOU think Lucas is responsible for? In his capacity of DM, delivery and breaking up play has been poor this season, and in his capacity of CM, setting up attacks has been dire.

We all know how everyone loves an underdog, but in competitive sport you need the best to win.

Er, I have written oodles about applying that sort of thinking on a practical basis. Midfield is the area of the pitch I understand the most, so that's what I've written about. I've written about the theoretical basis (which doesn't seem to be disproven any time soon), I've written about actual examples of that in past teams and present teams. I've written about how it can be applied to the players then in the Liverpool squad, with the results then and after bearing out my arguments. I've written about the implications for the rest of the team, and what can change and should change.

[steveeastend]

Firstly, your whole 'philosophical' approach to this debate is weak.
Secondly, go figure out the difference between ignorance and opinion. I've said nothing that would suggest i'm trying to impose my opinion.

Youīre opinion though is that Lucas is an average squad player not good enough for Liverpool. The coach of the brasilian team, Dalglish, Benitez, hell even Hodgson rate him clearly above being average.

You do ignore these facts which makes your opinion pretty philosophical itself.

[Smashedin]

Er, I have written oodles about applying that sort of thinking on a practical basis. Midfield is the area of the pitch I understand the most, so that's what I've written about. I've written about the theoretical basis (which doesn't seem to be disproven any time soon), I've written about actual examples of that in past teams and present teams. I've written about how it can be applied to the players then in the Liverpool squad, with the results then and after bearing out my arguments. I've written about the implications for the rest of the team, and what can change and should change.

I'm not going to trawl through your previous posts, its up to you to put forward your argument. And again no response to my questions.

[Smashedin]

Youīre opinion though is that Lucas is an average squad player not good enough for Liverpool. The coach of the brasilian team, Dalglish, Benitez, hell even Hodgson rate him clearly above being average.

You do ignore these facts which makes your opinion pretty philosophical itself.

There are no facts there, just presumptions. You assume that because those managers have used him, it automatically makes him a brilliant midfielder. So according to your logic, these managers that used Poulsen and Voronin clearly rated them 'above average', just because they were used? As for the Brazil argument, an above poster has poked enough holes in that argument, without me having to add to it.

I think you've confused the meaning of philosophical. It doesn't mean an idea without facts.

It's our worst start in 50 or so years, and apparently it doesn't have anything to do with Lucas. Now that is an incredible stat.

[Visigoth33]

There are no facts there, just presumptions. You assume that because those managers have used him, it automatically makes him a brilliant midfielder. So according to your logic, these managers that used Poulsen and Voronin clearly rated them 'above average', just because they were used? As for the Brazil argument, an above poster has poked enough holes in that argument, without me having to add to it.

I think you've confused the meaning of philosophical. It doesn't mean an idea without facts.

It's our worst start in 50 or so years, and apparently it doesn't have anything to do with Lucas. Now that is an incredible stat.

so who do you want to replace Lucas with?

[Smashedin]

so who do you want to replace Lucas with?

No one for now, I'm not in the habit of scouting players for Kenny's style/team. But to get back into the top 4, you need players of a higher standard than Lucas, so someone is going to have to come in eventually for his spot.

[Jagged Princess]

No one for now, I'm not in the habit of scouting players for Kenny's style/team. But to get back into the top 4, you need players of a higher standard than Lucas, so someone is going to have to come in eventually for his spot.

So you don't think Lucas is good enough yet you offer no alternative? Just as well you are not in the habit of scouting for Kenny then

[thegoodfella]

No one for now, I'm not in the habit of scouting players for Kenny's style/team. But to get back into the top 4, you need players of a higher standard than Lucas, so someone is going to have to come in eventually for his spot.

Come on, name a few, who do you think can be a reasonable replacement.

[steveeastend]

I think you've confused the meaning of philosophical. It doesn't mean an idea without facts.

It's our worst start in 50 or so years, and apparently it doesn't have anything to do with Lucas. Now that is an incredible stat.

The whole point about being a smart ass is to be smart. Unfortunately you are not. A stat, a fact or philosophy, whatever it may sound to you.... Lucas is a regular for the brasil international. That does make him an above average player. To me thatīs a fact.

As well itīs a fact that you have a different idea of what that means for Liverpool. That he is not good enough for us despite the fact he is an international for brasil. And because of that has a "responsibility" for our worst start for 50 years.

Now thatīs what I call nonsense. The responsible can only be taken by a manager, or the owners, thatīs a fact as well.

But letīs leave it like that. Your posts are a little too philosophical for my taste

[Smashedin]

So you don't think Lucas is good enough yet you offer no alternative? Just as well you are not in the habit of scouting for Kenny then

Come on, name a few, who do you think can be a reasonable replacement.

Yeah, i just said that didn't I? I don't see what your point is, I'm not a scout. I could list a couple names i hear In the news but i'd just be repeating media rubbish.

Just because i don't have a solution doesn't mean I can't identify a problem or weakness.

Lucas is a regular for the brasil international. That does make him an above average player. To me thatīs a fact.

As well itīs a fact that you have a different idea of what that means for Liverpool. That he is not good enough for us despite the fact he is an international for brasil. And because of that has a "responsibility" for our worst start for 50 years.

Now thatīs what I call nonsense. The responsible can only be taken by a manager, or the owners, thatīs a fact as well.

But letīs leave it like that. Your posts are a little too philosophical for my taste

If a 'fact' to you, thats an opinion. I didn't say he is responsible for the slump, but he is involved, and if it takes thing to get that bad for him to shine...

And as for only managers and owners taking responsibility for a slump; i suggest you think long and hard about that.

[Jagged Princess]

Yeah, i just said that didn't I? I don't see what your point is, I'm not a scout. I could list a couple names i hear In the news but i'd just be repeating media rubbish.

Just because i don't have a solution doesn't mean I can't identify a problem or weakness.

If a 'fact' to you, thats an opinion. I didn't say he is responsible for the slump, but he is involved, and if it takes thing to get that bad for him to shine...

And as for only managers and owners taking responsibility for a slump; i suggest you think long and hard about that.

Right, so you can see a 'negative' but you can't correct it with a positive. 

Media rubbish is correct, you should stop reading it. 

Ah, I'm out of here

[JohnHobbes]

Iīve been discussing Lucas pretty much from day one and canīt remember anyone claiming this.

Neither do I.

"If Lucas was plying his trade in La Liga, there would be a wank fest on here, to try to lure him in to our team.

No, there would not.

If Lucas was playing in a side that was more pass and move (and winning), then I feel he'd fit in well and people would be appreciating him more. When teams are losing then scapegoats are the theme of the day, when teams are winning people can take a deep breath and realise what players accomplish for the team.

[steveeastend]

And as for only managers and owners taking responsibility for a slump; i suggest you think long and hard about that.

A player can only take responsibilty for his "decisions" on the pitch and only be blamed for that. Otherwise Carra wouldīt be here anymore.

[Raoul Duke]

Exactly how I feel about his potential.

I really cannot understand why so much praise is being heaped on him.

Sure, he's improved, but I really don't think he's anywhere near world-class. Yet he's getting treated as if he's the best midfielder we've ever had - which he clearly is not.

It's because Benitez had a lot of faith in him, and there's a load of Rafa FC fans on here.

[Chakan]

It's because Benitez had a lot of faith in him, and there's a load of Rafa FC fans on here.

Bull.

[steveeastend]

It's because Benitez had a lot of faith in him, and there's a load of Rafa FC fans on here.

Yeah, because rating Lucas and having a different opinion on him cannot be possible, it has to be Rafa influenced. What an arrogant assumption this is...

[Smashedin]

The manager is in charge, he makes the decisions on the tactics the additions and who he thinks should better be leaving and for that takes the responsibility, thatīs why he is sacked or not. Same with the owners. They are responsible for taking long term decisions on investements, manager and even players in the first place.

A player can only take responsibilty for his "decisions" on the pitch and only be blamed for that. Otherwise Carra wouldīt be here anymore.

This is really special stuff. Are you basing these Carra claims on the same kind of facts you're using for Lucas?