Topic: Why we should keep Lucas?

[The 5th Benitle]

Note that some people are also saying that Lucas is a kid and needs to be given another few years to reach his potential... (despite being 24)

He's 23.

[AnnieRoad(Un)Faithful]

Good summary of any Lucas thread on here over the last few years, that.

Ever wonder, in a 'Sliding Doors' way what would have happened if Phil Neville hadn't handled on the line and Lucas had scored against Everton when he replaced Stevie?

I felt slightly sorry for him when Neville did that.

It would've done his cause a hell of a lot of good.

[007.lankyguy]

Lucas isn't a kid but he still has plenty of time to develop and he is better than Spearing at the moment, no point even comparing them.

[AnnieRoad(Un)Faithful]

Lucas isn't a kid but he still has plenty of time to develop and he is better than Spearing at the moment, no point even comparing them.

He is a lot better than Spearing, yep.

[Sangria]

I have no axe to grind with players like Lucas and Kuyt. Like in any business it is the manager who decides what is good for the team. At the end of the day as supporters we should back our players. However having watched Liverpool for a few decades it is clear that the above mentioned players along with the likes of Poulsen, Konseky, Jovanic etc are not Liverpool quality players and we are not going to progress or win anything with them in the first team or even the squad.

So many people just lining up to prove yorky's point. And mine, for that matter.

[The 5th Benitle]

So many people just lining up to prove yorky's point. And mine, for that matter.

The mention of Kuyt might confuse Yorky when judging this one though

[Cadno]

Ask yourself the question- would he get into the first team at UTd, Arsenal, Chelsea, Spurs or City and the answer is no. If we are aiming to be in that bracket why chance have we got with players like him of achieving that goal. In the game against Everton I would rather have spearing than him.

That really is a poor effort and your saying you would have Spearing instead of him must be embarrassing for even the ardent hater

[Sangria]

The mention of Kuyt might confuse Yorky when judging this one though

It doesn't contradict my particular issue though. Look through these posts, and it's one piece of evidence after another. I've always said that I respected posters like carling and Ciara with a C, who differed from me in their views about Lucas, but who didn't suffer from the issue I've talked about. These posters in the last few pages do though, to an advanced degree.

[Laergoth]

He's 23.

Nah, he turned 24 about a week ago.

[The 5th Benitle]

Nah, he turned 24 about a week ago.

Ach you're right, birthday was the day of the United game.

[mulhergremista]

He's 23.

He ws born on the 9th of January 1987, he selebrated his 24th birthday some days ago, namely on the day of the ManU game, he said to his fellow twitter that it was not so succesful birthday, but was moved by the numerous  greetings he got both from Brazil and from Liverpool fans from all over the world

[canadianscraggledog]

Ask yourself the question- would he get into the first team at UTd, Arsenal, Chelsea, Spurs or City and the answer is no. If we are aiming to be in that bracket why chance have we got with players like him of achieving that goal. In the game against Everton I would rather have spearing than him.

Actually, I believe he would get in their 1st teams on most days. He is better than Denilson, Mikel, Gibson, Anderson, Gibbs, Diaby, Eboue, Ramires.

[saintslfc13]

Ask yourself the question- would he get into the first team at UTd, Arsenal, Chelsea, Spurs or City and the answer is no. If we are aiming to be in that bracket why chance have we got with players like him of achieving that goal. In the game against Everton I would rather have spearing than him.

I think he would, and I'll do you one better and say that I have a feeling Barca might wish they bought him instead of Masch in a few years. Lucas and Busquets are essentially the same player style wise. The main difference being Busquets has a plethora of world class talent around him, while Lucas only has Torres and Gerrard. Sure Kuyt on his day can be class but he's been lacking for us this season in particular, and Agger has that world class potential but has had injury problems and for whatever reason wasn't liked by Hodgson.

At the end of the day what I say won't matter to most of you who hate him. Laergoth and Smashedin in particular seem to have a huge grudge against him. I had thought AnnieRoad was in the same group but having caught up from where I left this thread when I was at work (I can only read/post on my break there) I see he's much more sensible. While he may not rate him as highly as some of us at least he's willing to see what he does bring and more importantly he wants him to succeed. The most disappointing thing about the Lucas threads' aren't that there are some who blindly criticize him, but that the majority of them seem to want him to fail.

He's the type of player that will be brilliant for someone someday, I hope it's for us but I have no doubt that he'll get there whether he moves on or not.

Back to the main point. People say he's not as good as Masch, which DEFENSIVELY is true to a point, but having said that I'm not even sure I believe it. Masch was brilliant in the role he occupied for us, he ensured other teams creative players wouldn't have that time on the ball to do something, and he wasn't needed going forward, particularly because Alonso was so good at putting balls where ever they needed to be for our attack to do something with them. Once Alonso left though his lack of quality going forward was severely exposed. Masch is a far more one-dimensional player than Lucas ever has been for us, but at the time he was exactly what we needed. Another thing about Masch is that he almost always seemed like a Red-Card waiting to happen, you rarely see this sort of recklessness from Lucas. Masch also was constantly seen sprinting back to make a crucial sliding tackle, but he only ever had to sprint back because he was caught out of position, while Lucas is rarely caught out of position. As far as Xabi goes, he was another who was brilliant for us, but his best seasons were when he first arrived and was trying to prove himself, and after he fell out with Rafa. I don't know any other player who's currently out there in world football that can do what Xabi did for us in those seasons, particularly his last here, so why do some expect Lucas to do that?

Another point for those who slag off his ability to "grab a game by the scruff of the neck", while those performances from Gerrard are great and we all love to see them, they were more prominent when he was the only player we could turn to. We'd be better served to have a team of players like Lucas (not necessarily skill and pace wise mind) who all fill their roles to the best of their capability, work for each other and don't try to do too much on their own. Sure eventually someone will have to step up with a goal, but if they do it at the opportune moment rather than forcing it then we'll be better off as a whole. Yossi was a prime example of why this is important, he would often get himself into a position where the best option was to shoot, but rather than do that too often he would take an extra touch or make an unnecessary pass and it wouldn't come off. Gerrard is the opposite, sometimes a simple ball is on that would put us in a better position to score, but he'll take it upon himself to do something spectacular because that's what he's had to do for so long and it won't come off.

Lucas does need work on his shooting and confidence in the final third, but his vision, game awareness, and reading ability isn't lacking at all.

[AnnieRoad(Un)Faithful]

Lucas does need work on his shooting and confidence in the final third, but his vision, game awareness, and reading ability isn't lacking at all.

"isn't lacking at all" makes it sound like he's perfect in those traits - which he really is not, in fairness.

[saintslfc13]

"isn't lacking at all" makes it sound like he's perfect in those traits - which he really is not, in fairness.

Perhaps I should rephrase and say he isn't lacking in those for the role which he is asked to perform. Sure if we expected him to play a free role then maybe he would be but as we haven't seen it neither of us can say for sure.

[canyouhearhimcalling]

"Why we should keep Lucas?"   Why should lucas stay, when he is the only player who seems to give a F*** ? Moreover, he gives his all, everything that the "liverpool" supporter/fan expects , yet, is always one mistake from being marginalised.

If Lucas was plying his trade in La Liga, there would be a wank fest on here, to try to lure him in to our team. People only see what they want to see though, it is sometimes harder to see things close up, than things which are further away. Maybe when he is not here, there will be a clamour about why we ever let him go/ he decided to leave.

[Yorkykopite]

receiving the ball and passing to whoever the nearest unmarked player happens to be. Total waste of space.

I love that. We all do, right?

[Roslagen]

Yes, of course Lucas should be part of our future plans. But I don't think he'll ever be good enough to be a starter in a team challenging for the league title. But he'd be the perfect back up, no doubt about it. I think he'll reach his ultimate peak in 2011 or 2012, and then he'll be able to hang onto that level for five years or so. Steady player, but will be no club legend.

[Beninger]

Lucas is able to get it to our wingers.  What they do with it seems to be the problem. 

[nocturnalvin]

erm.... i like Lucas, but putting him in front of Busquets is underrating Sergio.

[USC19Babel]

erm.... i like Lucas, but putting him in front of Busquets is underrating Sergio.

Lucas would look class playing for Barca

[skipper757]

It wasn't long ago when many people were slating Busquets.  Waste of space, diving wanker, etc, etc.

The thing is, the more I watch Barca the more I realize his importance.  Out of Xavi, Iniesta, Busquets, and even some of Barca's defenders, Sergio seems the least likely to go forward.  He seems unflashy.

But he does so well is keep possession.  Everyone whines about sideways/backwards passes.  But in Barca's case, they need to keep possession.  That is their game.  Busquets helps them do that.  Whether it's being available for an under-pressure teammate to pass to or making a quick turn under pressure, Busquets helps Barca keeps possession, whether he's passing back to Puyol or making a quick short pass to Xavi.  Not flashy but he gets the job done.  Not to mention, he's good at winning the ball back as well.  Again not the flashy, crunching tackles.

With Lucas, he offers many of the similar skills of Busquets.  The problem is, we don't have the talent around him.  The players offer far less movement, and Lucas has less options.  Often, he'll play the safe ball.  That helps us keep possession.  The problem is, rarely does that possession actually translate into anything simply because we don't have the quality needed.  Lucas will help Kuyt out, receive a pass, make a turn, and then pass it to Meireles or back to Skrtel.  Lucas did well helping us keep possession.  But chances are, we'll probably give the ball away 5 seconds later and all of Lucas's work is wasted.

That's what the current problem is.  Lucas can play the possession game.  Too bad most of the other members of the squad cannot do so.  A backwards/sideways pass isn't a bad thing.  Not when it helps you keep possession.  But when  the team is dysfunctional, the ultimate impact is not there, thus the craving for Lucas to "dominate" the midfield.

He's been improving ever since he came here.  I'm not sure if he'll ever be able to take a game by the scruff of the neck.  At worst, he has the awareness and control to keep the ball moving and help us maintain possession while occasionally playing sublime through balls.  Get some attacking talent in the team and I think he'll be a lot more comfortable and he'll have an increasing importance on the team, especially since Kenny values possession and ball control far more than Hodgson ever did or will.

[nocturnalvin]

Lucas would look class playing for Barca

I get the assumption but to dismiss Busquets as inferior is simply unfounded.

[USC19Babel]

I get the assumption but to dismiss Busquets as inferior is simply unfounded.

I'd say they're at a similar level.

[nocturnalvin]

I'd say they're at a similar level.

Absolutely not. Not yet anyway.

Sergio Busquets is vastly underrated in quite possibly the best club team ever, except by his own peers and obviously Pep and the Barca fans. His reading of the game is superb, perhaps well drilled by the Barca backroom. His mobility and technical ability is ahead of Lucas, as his goal threat.

[DanA]

Ask yourself the question- would he get into the first team at UTd, Arsenal, Chelsea, Spurs or City and the answer is no. If we are aiming to be in that bracket why chance have we got with players like him of achieving that goal. In the game against Everton I would rather have spearing than him.

I think he'd make all of those teams.

Once we've replaced Jovanovic, Cole, Skrtel, Agger, Carragher, Johnson, Konchesky, Aurelio, Babel, Poulsen & Meireles we can then talk about our Brazilian international as the weakest link. Until then he doesn't need to be replaced.

[scatman]

I think he'd make all of those teams.

Once we've replaced Jovanovic, Cole, Skrtel, Agger, Carragher, Johnson, Konchesky, Aurelio, Babel, Poulsen & Meireles we can then talk about our Brazilian international as the weakest link. Until then he doesn't need to be replaced.

Yep, this steve fella posted in another thread how Lucas is the main problem and listed all these Central midfielders from various clubs (notably only the top midfielders at those clubs such as Fabregas, Modric and co), of course due to what seems to be a small brain capacity he only thought that clubs had 1 central midfielder, not realising how many inferior players to Lucas actually play central midfield for those teams such as Carrick (better passer I'll grant him that), Anderson, Scholes (past it), Obi Mikel, Ramires, Jenas, Huddlestone (better passer again), Denilson, etc, we could go on.

Some people hate Lucas, and will always hate him. I for one think he should leave, it's exactly the same as how Rafa was villified by sections of our fans and once he was gone, that's when you realised how wrong it was. Lucas leaving I think would be the best thing for him unless we actually get some proper wingers who can hold the ball.

Just looking at that Man Utd game video dispells the myths of going for the easiest option and all that bollocks. Look at how many times he does not pass to Gerrard when he is standing next to him. He doesnt even bother.

[MassDriver]

Absolutely not. Not yet anyway.

Sergio Busquets is vastly underrated in quite possibly the best club team ever, except by his own peers and obviously Pep and the Barca fans. His reading of the game is superb, perhaps well drilled by the Barca backroom. His mobility and technical ability is ahead of Lucas, as his goal threat.

Goal threat? Mobility? Imagination much?
2 odd goals in his Barcelona career doesn't make him much of a goal threat as far as I am concerned.

[007.lankyguy]

As far comparing Lucas to Busquets, I think Lucas has a bit of a way to catch up with him. Busquets is class and very underated. I know he has top players around him but he really does fit into their system and he is pretty much perfect for their defensive midfield position which is why they maybe shouldn't have signed Mascherano. They don't need Mascherano in a lot of situations because their defense is very good, particularly Pique who is very underated and is one of the best centre backs in the world in my opinion, but also that they press so well that they often don't need someone whose main strength is speed and tackling.

[nocturnalvin]

Goal threat? Mobility? Imagination much?
2 odd goals in his Barcelona career doesn't make him much of a goal threat as far as I am concerned.

Watch the Barca games. Then talk football.

[smig]

Some people hate Lucas, and will always hate him.

Nobody on here hates Lucas, those of us who do doubt him want him to ram it down our throats and prove us all wrong. That should go without saying as far as I'm concerned. However many of us criticise him because as a player who has played well over one hundred games for the club, we feel he doesn't dominate anywhere near as many games as he should do. Maybe my expectations of a Liverpool central midfielder are too high, but I don't feel he does enough week in, week out. A good player, but on the basis of what I've seen since he arrived, no better than a good squad player if we want to challenge for the very best honours.

[saintslfc13]

Nobody on here hates Lucas, those of us who do doubt him want him to ram it down our throats and prove us all wrong. That should go without saying as far as I'm concerned. However many of us criticise him because as a player who has played well over one hundred games for the club, we feel he doesn't dominate anywhere near as many games as he should do. Maybe my expectations of a Liverpool central midfielder are too high, but I don't feel he does enough week in, week out. A good player, but on the basis of what I've seen since he arrived, no better than a good squad player if we want to challenge for the very best honours.

Sadly my friend, I think you're wrong that everyone who doubts him wants him to do well. I'll grant you yourself and AnnieRoad, as well as a few others, but some are clearly hoping for him to fail. I suppose they might not be Liverpool supporters though as they all seem to invariably have just started posting.

As far as what I said about him and Busquets, I'm not sure if he's better but I think he is a similar player and with a similar amount of quality around him he would produce similar results.

[steveeastend]

To single out players like Kuyt and Lucas and question their quality good enough for Liverpool in a situation where we clearly have other things to sort out first, for example which system Kenny will prefer and if the players are capable of doing this, it just looks like that a lot want him out just for the sake of it. Cause of course he is, good enough.

[mulhergremista]

from: RBrittain on January  4, 2011, 03:33:34 PM

    If Lucas was really good enough, he wouldn't still divide opinion so vociferously.

I read this in the locked (quality) thread "how Lucas became a Liverpool player"

I remembered Rivaldo and how he was slated by  a part of Barça fans

The circumstances were almost the same

Barça had on of the worst seasons somewehre in the end of the 90th or beginning of the 2000th,  I forgot the exact date

At the same bad season, Rivaldo had his best season in Barça.  All the stars left, beginning with Figo and following with some others
Rivaldo was left more or less alone to carry the weight  of the team on his thin shoulders.   He did it with flying colours,  scored 36 goals in all competitions,  many games were saved for Barça by his goals.  He even descended to help the defense, and I remember him heading away some balls from the line of the goal

I asked my good internet friend,  a wonderful football writer , Carlos Peña from Equador,
, why all the terrible abuse that Rivaldo is suffering?  It is obvious that without him they would have fighting against relegation

He answered me with a long elaborating article, from which I remember one fraze:

Accusing Rivaldo in the bad situation of the club is like accusing the guide dog for the blindness of his owner (sounds bettter in Spanish)

Barça was not relegated as you all know, they quallified to the UEFA cup, when Rivaldo scored some crucial goals until they were eliminated by Liverpool, for some stupid handwork(Penalty for liverpool) from Patrick Cluivert.

All the Rivaldo booers accused him for that and predicted a horrible WC in 2002 for him and Brazil

They did not appreciate his sacrifize, playing often injured of not recuperated from injury or playing shortly after returning from a long flight after acting for the NT

He was forgotten, is not in the hall of fame of Barcelona, and is remembered only for his bicycle kick goal that retutrned Barça to the CL.  He was deported from Barça by Van Gaal who made it a condition to his return . the rest is history.  Barça even did not cach on him,  free transfer, and he , disapointed and hurt,  gave up all the money they owed him

I remembered of this saga of Rivaldo when I read such posts.  Or others that say that the bad season of Liverpool is the result of Lucas playing every game.                               

I asked  my husband the same question that I asked Carlos, his answer was:  His play is inteligent, some just do not understand it

I thought when I began to follow Lucas closely, after his briliant championship with the U-20 in January 2007 ^This one will be a concensus, his simple and efficient football will be appreciated by everybody (In Brazil it was, even the fans of the city rival  adored him) 
I was shocked for the amount of hate and abuse he got.

The rest is history.  Luas has the advantge over Rivaldo in his upbringing. Rivaldo came from a terrible poverty that we can even imagine.  He was more hungry than not, he had an acident when he was 14,  a beton wall fell over his right leg, crushing it. He remained with only his left, therrible o legs because of malnutrition. When he begane to play profesionally,   the prediction were he will not be able to play with such legs.  and I could write more about it, but it is not the place.
 Lucas confronted all this abuse better tthan Rivaldo  did, to tell the truth, people even mocked Rivaldo for his for background, in Real Madrird somebody said: you starving poor bastard, how dare you to challenge a Spanish senior like that (Hierro)  be good, and we will give you a sandwich.   Rivaldo was humble, like Lucas, gave everything to the club..

Today nobody doubt the greatness of RIVALDO,  ask Jaja Toure , for example, he speaks on his year with Rivaldo in Olimpiakos. 

Lucas is quite a different player , in many aspect quite the opposite of Rivaldo, but both has some things in comon:
Both were not"celebrities"   They did not look for fame in the gossip part of newspapers, are committed to their clubs ect
, rated family life more than anything, did not attended bars and nightclub or involved with scandals..

Time will come when Lucas  will not be polemic player anymore, I beleive.  For him it will be easier than for Rivaldo. he had the education and upbringing for it.  Rivaldo had "only" his exceptional talent and willpower.  everything else  was against him.   

Lucas has the talent and willpower, but has also other adnatages  His childhood , upbringing ect.  I have written about it in other locked threads earlier.
Ok, this was my weekly long (Boring?  OT?) post.

[Discipline]

"Why we should keep Lucas?"

'cause he's f***** boss! 

[xerxes1]

Because he is a good player.

He played the DM role, unselfishly, and uncomplainingly, under Rafa even though it is neither his favourite, nor natural position.

Once things settel down i believe he will flourish as a conventional midfield player and I will always be grateful to him for doing his job, and doinh what bhe is told, a trait that several other squad members could learn from to the team's advantage.

[leivapool]

Accusing Rivaldo in the bad situation of the club is like accusing the guide dog for the blindness of his owner (sounds bettter in Spanish)
                         

I asked  my husband the same question that I asked Carlos, his answer was:  His play is inteligent, some just do not understand it

Good points Mulhergremista.  With regard to the bit I have highlighted, even Lucas himself in his 60 mins interview said he never thought ......"that people didn't like me , they just thought differently to me"

Currently Aurelio/Maxi/Torres and Mereiles think like Lucas.  So I guess we have to ask, do we want a team that play to Lucas's strength, pass and move, possession football?  Or do we want a more traditional blood and thunder English style midfield?

Personally I hope we build the team to suit Lucas's strengths, that the style of football I like. 

[killer-heels]

Because he is a good player.

He played the DM role, unselfishly, and uncomplainingly, under Rafa even though it is neither his favourite, nor natural position.

Once things settel down i believe he will flourish as a conventional midfield player and I will always be grateful to him for doing his job, and doinh what bhe is told, a trait that several other squad members could learn from to the team's advantage.

I am not really sure if he can flourish as anything other than a defensive midfielder. He lacks the conviction in the final 3rd in my opinion, both in his passing and shooting, to be a top box to box player.

Maybe its a confidence thing, but although he has good movement in and around there, he doesn't look comfortable.

[leivapool]

Blimmin heck, that's Lucas' real Twitter? (http://twitter.com/lucasleiva87)

17 Tweets in the last 3 hours! Seems he spends a lot of time online. He must be posting under several aliases in this thread - would explain some people's bad English too.

(Note: That's a joke. You don't have to attack it.)

Think I've said all I've wanted to say in this thread now.

AnnieRoadFaithful - Talks sense and makes reasonable, coherent arguments which are factually accurate.
leivapool - A Lucas lover who can actually accept other people's opinions. Well done.
Julio - Nothing you say makes any sense.
The 5th Benitle - Craziest guy I've ever seen on an internet forum, and I've seen some. Freud would have a field day.

I don't mean to be offensive, I really don't - Just saying it how I see it.

Thanks.

I actually think the 5th Benitle talks alot of sense 

[PJG]

That was brilliant.  Probabaly one of the best I've ever read on this forum