Author Topic: Chasing the Title  (Read 1190489 times)

Offline Alan_X

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Re: Chasing the Title
« Reply #16840 on: May 16, 2019, 05:06:42 pm »
I disagree that the title was lost during the game at the Etihad. Far from it, we were still very much in command of the title race despite that loss.

We lost because we drew at Goodison Park and Old Trafford, while City didn't. Those were high-profile away derbies where we felt that taking a single point would be enough, as opposed to the points dropped against West Ham and Leicester.

Those string of consecutive draws came at a vital period in the title race and handed City the belief that they will retain the title. Guardiola was almost prepared to concede the title after they lost at Newcastle, but we allowed them to claw back the points.

That's meaningless. We lost because we had fewer points over the season than City and each of the dropped points were of equal value. The two points dropped at Goodison weren't worth more than the two dropped at West Ham. If we'd won either game we'd be champions.

The argument that the Etihad was more relevant is a good one because it was a game where we could directly influence their points total. As has been pointed out, in the games against all the other teams we performed better than City.
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Offline SteveZissou

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Re: Chasing the Title
« Reply #16841 on: May 16, 2019, 05:12:22 pm »
I'm obviously beaming for the UCL final but I'd be worried for next season if we don't freshen up the squad in key areas. The main reason being the Nations League, the Africa Cup and the fact that we need this summer to get some rest from the World Cup to the marathon league season to the UCL final... From all I mentioned, the Africa Cup worries me the most due to the longer format where all our big guns should be going to the KO round.

Will Shaqiri start some of the early season games? But he's in the Nations League.
Players who could help us with their energy early next season: Gomez, Lovren, Keita, Shaqiri, Origi and Fabinho.
Not sure about Ox early next season. We could count on him as a starter too.

I'd bring in a good left back, and another speedy wide player so that we can give Sadio and Salah a proper rest sometimes.

Now, by a rest I'm not talking playing the likes of Lallana and ruining our Premier League hopes. I'm talking a proper player that will push our front three.

I obviously don't believe it's going to be Antoine but let's say hypothetically we got him, we can then compete with City's ability to go with Sane, Mahrez and De Bruyne from the bench.

We could freshen things up with: Shaqiri, Firmino and Antoine. Resting both Salah and Mane. Then bring them back firing in another game. This is how I think we can challenge again next season.

Otherwise I'm not sure if we will have the energy to cope after the Afcon.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2019, 05:25:45 pm by SteveZissou »
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Re: Chasing the Title
« Reply #16842 on: May 16, 2019, 05:17:11 pm »
All valid concerns and points but if you're aware of it, like I am and everyone else, then Klopp and the rest of the coaching staff are as well, so they'll have a plan one way or another.


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Re: Chasing the Title
« Reply #16843 on: May 17, 2019, 01:41:33 pm »
Man City Champions League bans... bad for our league chances?
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Re: Chasing the Title
« Reply #16844 on: May 17, 2019, 01:42:51 pm »
Man City Champions League bans... bad for our league chances?

Yep.

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Re: Chasing the Title
« Reply #16845 on: May 17, 2019, 01:43:13 pm »
Man City Champions League bans... bad for our league chances?

Maybe, although it could mean Guardiola leaving them sooner.

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Re: Chasing the Title
« Reply #16846 on: May 17, 2019, 01:44:14 pm »
Man City Champions League bans... bad for our league chances?
fuck it, ban them from the league aswel. Saves the heartache.  They deserve it
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Re: Chasing the Title
« Reply #16847 on: May 17, 2019, 01:45:15 pm »
Man City Champions League bans... bad for our league chances?

Nope.

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Re: Chasing the Title
« Reply #16848 on: May 17, 2019, 01:45:55 pm »
Man City Champions League bans... bad for our league chances?

Less games = bad, but they aren't the only consequences....

They'll have the lack of CL income, which will mean it will be even harder to meet FFP and will likely see them forced to sell, and certainly not buy.

If they get banned then they'll also receive closer scrutiny of their accounts going forward. That'll mean no more fucking with the wages how they do, and no more dodgy sponsorship deals. Again this should mean they'll have to cut costs to meet FFP.

Both of those = good.

Offline PoetryInMotion

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Re: Chasing the Title
« Reply #16849 on: May 17, 2019, 02:13:19 pm »
Less games = bad, but they aren't the only consequences....

They'll have the lack of CL income, which will mean it will be even harder to meet FFP and will likely see them forced to sell, and certainly not buy.

If they get banned then they'll also receive closer scrutiny of their accounts going forward. That'll mean no more fucking with the wages how they do, and no more dodgy sponsorship deals. Again this should mean they'll have to cut costs to meet FFP.

Both of those = good.

Also, if they get a ban for 2020-21, and if they go out of CL in 2019-20, there's a chance Guardiola might give up.

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Re: Chasing the Title
« Reply #16850 on: May 18, 2019, 10:23:06 am »
Saw this on a Reddit and completely agree.


That's not really how it works.
When teams are that close, the outcome is out of their control, and down to arbitrary external decisions and actions.
If Iheanacho buries that chance at the end of the Leicester game, Liverpool would probably be champions. Man City would have done nothing different, Liverpool would have done nothing different, and yet the outcome would be different and pundits would be spouting nonsense about how, in the end, Liverpool were just too good for City.
The same goes for a bunch of refereeing decisions. Tottenham should have had a penalty against Liverpool, Mane's goal against West Ham was offside - Liverpool could easily have had fewer points with the same performance. Conversely, they had stonewall penalties not given against Leicester and Man Utd, and were pegged back in their 'slump' by referees. Man City opened the scoring against Watford with an offside goal. And on and on. If Salah doesn't jump Kompany's tackle, Kompany gets a red, City probably lose the game and the title is gone.
If Mertens puts that chance out of Alisson's reach at the end of the Napoli game, Liverpool would have been in the Europa League, and yet here they are, in the final competing to be crowned champions of Europe, when their own performances gave others the chance to dump them out of the competition.
There is no meaning to be found about who is better based on a one point difference, but people don't find that satisfying, and humans don't like to feel out of control of the narrative of their life, especially if they find meaning from the outcome of football.
So much of this is arbitrary and filled with luck.

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Re: Chasing the Title
« Reply #16851 on: May 18, 2019, 10:34:56 am »
Maybe, although it could mean Guardiola leaving them sooner.

I think he'll struggle with the association between his achievements there and any financial doping. He's a purist and perfectionist, and I think if FFP comes down hard on them then it can only accelerate his departure.

Its not good for his reputation, which so far has been virtually untarnished. If the implication and ultimate verdict is that the club cheated the rules and they do get a champions league ban, then its essentially saying they also cheated in the league and domestic cups too. That calls all of their achievements to date into question since the Sheik took over, and seriously dents their domestic and global reputation - and rightly so, as their success has looked highly suspicious for some time now.

Most other sports have been able to deal with doping and cheating whether its financial or drug related, and its high time football stopped fannying around and did the same.
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Re: Chasing the Title
« Reply #16852 on: May 18, 2019, 11:14:22 am »
I think he'll struggle with the association between his achievements there and any financial doping. He's a purist and perfectionist, and I think if FFP comes down hard on them then it can only accelerate his departure.

Its not good for his reputation, which so far has been virtually untarnished. If the implication and ultimate verdict is that the club cheated the rules and they do get a champions league ban, then its essentially saying they also cheated in the league and domestic cups too. That calls all of their achievements to date into question since the Sheik took over, and seriously dents their domestic and global reputation - and rightly so, as their success has looked highly suspicious for some time now.

Most other sports have been able to deal with doping and cheating whether its financial or drug related, and its high time football stopped fannying around and did the same.

Let's cut to the chase and cut out the deification of Guardiola.

He is a convicted drugs cheat. Whilst at Brescia he received a four month Football ban and a seven months suspended jail sentence after testing positive for Nandrolone a banned steroid.

During his first season at City on three occasions City broke anti doping regulations and were fined by the FA.

He joined City knowing that they had cheated and broken FFP regulations in 13/14 and were fined £49m and were subject to squad restrictions.

Add in the cynical way his teams nullify counter attacks plus the fact that he is part of the wages scam that sees Abu Dhabi directly own players image rights and it is frankly absurd the way he is portrayed.
One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10

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Re: Chasing the Title
« Reply #16853 on: May 18, 2019, 11:30:15 am »
Let's cut to the chase and cut out the deification of Guardiola.

He is a convicted drugs cheat. Whilst at Brescia he received a four month Football ban and a seven months suspended jail sentence after testing positive for Nandrolone a banned steroid.

During his first season at City on three occasions City broke anti doping regulations and were fined by the FA.

He joined City knowing that they had cheated and broken FFP regulations in 13/14 and were fined £49m and were subject to squad restrictions.

Add in the cynical way his teams nullify counter attacks plus the fact that he is part of the wages scam that sees Abu Dhabi directly own players image rights and it is frankly absurd the way he is portrayed.

Spot on Al.

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Re: Chasing the Title
« Reply #16854 on: May 18, 2019, 11:52:25 am »
He is a convicted drugs cheat. Whilst at Brescia he received a four month Football ban and a seven months suspended jail sentence after testing positive for Nandrolone a banned steroid.

Which he was cleared of. Twice.

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Re: Chasing the Title
« Reply #16855 on: May 18, 2019, 01:18:31 pm »
Let's cut to the chase and cut out the deification of Guardiola.

He is a convicted drugs cheat. Whilst at Brescia he received a four month Football ban and a seven months suspended jail sentence after testing positive for Nandrolone a banned steroid.

During his first season at City on three occasions City broke anti doping regulations and were fined by the FA.

He joined City knowing that they had cheated and broken FFP regulations in 13/14 and were fined £49m and were subject to squad restrictions.

Add in the cynical way his teams nullify counter attacks plus the fact that he is part of the wages scam that sees Abu Dhabi directly own players image rights and it is frankly absurd the way he is portrayed.

Its not me deifying him - its his image in the media that seems untarnished, which is why stronger FFP action can't come soon enough for him and that club.
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Re: Chasing the Title
« Reply #16856 on: May 18, 2019, 01:31:07 pm »
Man City Champions League bans... bad for our league chances?

I'd say no, its the one prize these players want, winning the league can only be desirable x amount of times before a new challenge is naturally needed. New challenges and goals are what keep pro athletes at the top of the pile... This would be a huge knock on the players and more importantly, Pep.


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Re: Chasing the Title
« Reply #16857 on: May 18, 2019, 05:30:22 pm »
Which he was cleared of. Twice.

Eventually he was cleared because of a loophole.

At first Guardiola claimed he had been the victim of contaminated supplements given to him by his personal physician Dr. Ramon Segura. So the authorities tested the supplements Guardiola had taken and they didn't contain Nandrolone.

What they did find though was that despite claiming contamination, Dr. Segura could not even be sure of the contents of these supplements. It was discovered during Guardiola’s unsuccessful appeal that Dr. Segura’s behaviour in preparing Guardiola’s supplements was deemed “risky”. These supplements were prepared with “raw materials purchased from different suppliers according to market availability”, without suitable “certification of manufacturers”.

So you could say that in a way Guardiola had been put at risk by Dr Segura. Obviously you would expect Guardiola to be outraged by Segura's lackadaisical approach to preparing supplements. Especially given another client Frank De Boer also tasted positive for Nandrolone.

However instead of shunning Segura and his dodgy supplements he installed him as Barca club doctor and encouraged his players to take the supplements.



When his first defence failed instead of holding his hands up Guardiola enlisted the help of another Doctor who claimed Guardiola suffered from Gilbert syndrome. A genetic condition that they argued could produce elevated levels of Nandrolone. The marker for nandrolone use in drug testing is  19-noretiocholanolone, the legal limit is 2mg and one of Guardiola's samples showed 12mg so unsurprisingly his second defence was thrown out.


Two defences down Guardiola still didn't hold his hands up. He was probably going to rely on the dog ate my home work defence until an anomaly was found. n 2005, WADA had found that a phenomenon called “unstable urine” in samples could lead to positive tests for low levels of nandrolone. In very rare cases nandrolone could be found in samples not because of external administration but as a result of a chemical reaction that “may occur in a vial containing urine.”

WADA instructed all accredited labs to perform “stability tests” on urine samples with nandrolone concentration from 2 to 10ng/ml moving forward. Guardiola’s values were at the high end of this scale (12ng/ml for NE). Those samples that were deemed “unstable” would not constitute an adverse analytic finding for nandrolone.

Then-WADA Director General David Howman stood by the efficacy of previous testing for nandrolone and said the chances of urine becoming unstable were “very rare”. The chances were between 1 out of 1,000 and 1 out of 10,000 positive tests for nandrolone.

Guardiola was cleared by the Brescia Court of Appeals. This was not because his samples were deemed “unstable” but because it could have been possible that his four samples had been “unstable”. Guardiola was absolved of all blame because of “the impossibility to now perform stability tests on the samples taken” in 2001.

Stability tests must be carried out within five weeks of the collection of a sample. In 2007, no sample even remained to be re-tested.

Yet Italian anti-doping prosecutors would appeal the decision in 2009 arguing that Guardiola should not have been allowed another appeal. The change in WADA’s guidelines did not constitute “new evidence”, they argued, because anti-doping laboratories were correctly following the testing procedures set by WADA at the time. Further they argued that Guardiola’s representatives had never contested how the sample was collected or analysed in previous cases and that this did not form part of his previous defence.


Guardiola had 4 samples of urine taken so the chance that all four were contaminated is miniscule. He was cleared because it simply wasn't possible to prove the stability of six year old urine.
One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10

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Re: Chasing the Title
« Reply #16858 on: May 18, 2019, 06:21:27 pm »
So we play the Abu Dhabi Corp. in the community shield

Offline RedorRed

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Re: Chasing the Title
« Reply #16859 on: May 18, 2019, 06:59:44 pm »
Can the BBC get their tongues any further up Manchester City’s arse!!!!


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Re: Chasing the Title
« Reply #16860 on: May 18, 2019, 07:10:10 pm »
I don’t think they can.  It the BBC are willing to try.

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Re: Chasing the Title
« Reply #16861 on: May 18, 2019, 07:15:39 pm »
They keep going on about them being the greatest team ever............ but they still lost 4 times in the Prem this season..... we lost one...... by 11mm

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Re: Chasing the Title
« Reply #16862 on: May 18, 2019, 07:18:00 pm »
They keep going on about them being the greatest team ever............ but they still lost 4 times in the Prem this season..... we lost one...... by 11mm

I'd rather lose 4 and get 98 points than lose 1 and get 97

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Re: Chasing the Title
« Reply #16863 on: May 18, 2019, 07:19:17 pm »
I'd rather lose 4 and get 98 points than lose 1 and get 97
I know we all would but I’m trying to make a point.

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Re: Chasing the Title
« Reply #16864 on: May 18, 2019, 07:22:27 pm »
I know we all would but I’m trying to make a point.

Using the losses to make a point doesn't mean anything. They won 32, we won 30.

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Re: Chasing the Title
« Reply #16865 on: May 18, 2019, 07:26:32 pm »
Using the losses to make a point doesn't mean anything. They won 32, we won 30.

This.


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Re: Chasing the Title
« Reply #16866 on: May 18, 2019, 07:30:03 pm »
Its fine margins. Our top scorer has scored more goals than their top scorer. Our top assist man has more assists than their top assist man. We have the player of the year. Our keeper has more clean sheets than their keeper. We have conceded less than them

They have have scored more goals than us.

We are their equal. It essentially came down to the head to head. They won one drew one. We lost one drew one and even then both matches were close.


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Re: Chasing the Title
« Reply #16867 on: May 18, 2019, 07:32:27 pm »
Its fine margins. Our top scorer has scored more goals than their top scorer. Our top assist man has more assists than their top assist man. We have the player of the year. Our keeper has more clean sheets than their keeper. We have conceded less than them

They have have scored more goals than us.

We are their equal. It essentially came down to the head to head. They won one drew one. We lost one drew one and even then both matches were close.

And Kompany should have been sent off in the match.
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Re: Chasing the Title
« Reply #16868 on: May 18, 2019, 07:39:10 pm »
Its fine margins. Our top scorer has scored more goals than their top scorer. Our top assist man has more assists than their top assist man. We have the player of the year. Our keeper has more clean sheets than their keeper. We have conceded less than them

They have have scored more goals than us.

We are their equal. It essentially came down to the head to head. They won one drew one. We lost one drew one and even then both matches were close.



We are not their equal until we do it again, they have got 198 points over the course of 2 seasons. They've proven this isn't a flash in the pan and it looks like a long term thing for them.

Its the equivalent to an unknown striker scoring 25 in a season, for them to be talked about as truly quality they need to do it again, or else they're potentially a one season wonder.

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Re: Chasing the Title
« Reply #16869 on: May 18, 2019, 07:45:00 pm »
We are not their equal until we do it again, they have got 198 points over the course of 2 seasons. They've proven this isn't a flash in the pan and it looks like a long term thing for them.

Its the equivalent to an unknown striker scoring 25 in a season, for them to be talked about as truly quality they need to do it again, or else they're potentially a one season wonder.

Not sure I agree. We've got to the European Cup final 2 seasons in a row while they haven't got past the quarter finals. Win it this year, and I reckon we can consider ourselves as good as them. We've beaten the best teams in Europe. They've strolled through training games against Bournemouth and Huddersfield.

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Re: Chasing the Title
« Reply #16870 on: May 18, 2019, 07:46:52 pm »
Not sure I agree. We've got to the European Cup final 2 seasons in a row while they haven't got past the quarter finals. Win it this year, and I reckon we can consider ourselves as good as them. We've beaten the best teams in Europe. They've strolled through training games against Bournemouth and Huddersfield.

I get where you're coming from but the league is relentless and cups you can have one thing go for you that writes the narrative.

If we win the European Cup though then in my opinion we've had just a good a season as them, whether we're as good as them? Lets see next year I guess!

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Re: Chasing the Title
« Reply #16871 on: May 18, 2019, 07:48:21 pm »
I get where you're coming from but the league is relentless and cups you can have one thing go for you that writes the narrative.

If we win the European Cup though then in my opinion we've had just a good a season as them, whether we're as good as them? Lets see next year I guess!

Bring it on  :D

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Re: Chasing the Title
« Reply #16872 on: May 18, 2019, 08:04:49 pm »
I get where you're coming from but the league is relentless and cups you can have one thing go for you that writes the narrative.

If we win the European Cup though then in my opinion we've had just a good a season as them, whether we're as good as them? Lets see next year I guess!

But the cups are still played together with the league games.  Relentlessness is the frequency at which games are played and perhaps their ferocity.  If you are playing every three days the relentless doesn't stop because you are playing a Champions' League game. City cannot compete with the best in Europe. Liverpool and Spurs have done them and we are playing the same teams week in week out.  We are their equal- absolutely no doubt about it.
If we win number 6, the media will be spouting a different narrative. 97 points and 2 Champions' League finals in a row is no mean feat.

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Re: Chasing the Title
« Reply #16873 on: May 18, 2019, 08:15:42 pm »
But the cups are still played together with the league games.  Relentlessness is the frequency at which games are played and perhaps their ferocity.  If you are playing every three days the relentless doesn't stop because you are playing a Champions' League game. City cannot compete with the best in Europe. Liverpool and Spurs have done them and we are playing the same teams week in week out.  We are their equal- absolutely no doubt about it.
If we win number 6, the media will be spouting a different narrative. 97 points and 2 Champions' League finals in a row is no mean feat.

I mean because its a 38 league game season theres no bullshit with it, the best team always wins it. Whereas in the cups theres always a bit of misfortune/luck deciding where it ends up.

Offline 12Kings

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Re: Chasing the Title
« Reply #16874 on: May 18, 2019, 08:38:59 pm »
Man City Champions League bans... bad for our league chances?

I can’t remember if Chelsea got a champions league ban back when they were steam rolling the league (ironically it was us again stopping an almighty monster from taking everything) think it was a transfer ban? Anyway things levelled out for them after that and they were never the same.

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Re: Chasing the Title
« Reply #16875 on: May 18, 2019, 08:53:24 pm »
Man City Champions League bans... bad for our league chances?

Maybe, but they have two sides anyway, there isn't a huge drop in quality when they rotate.
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Re: Chasing the Title
« Reply #16876 on: May 18, 2019, 08:56:33 pm »
I mean because its a 38 league game season theres no bullshit with it, the best team always wins it. Whereas in the cups theres always a bit of misfortune/luck deciding where it ends up.

We have made the CL finals 2 years in a row and we have beaten Man City, Bayern, Napoli, PSG and Barcelona in those 2 years. City, Bayern and Barcelona have been beaten in a 2-legged contest.

There is no luck. There is no fortune. We have made the final in the biggest, toughest and most important tournament in club football.

City are a great team, but they don't have it. They won't win a CL any time soon and certainly not next season. You need something special, which they do not possess. Their club doesn't, their fans don't, their manager doesn't.

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Re: Chasing the Title
« Reply #16877 on: May 18, 2019, 10:53:34 pm »
I mean because its a 38 league game season theres no bullshit with it, the best team always wins it. Whereas in the cups theres always a bit of misfortune/luck deciding where it ends up.

City have had more than their fair share of fortune in the league this season.

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Re: Chasing the Title
« Reply #16878 on: May 18, 2019, 11:54:54 pm »
We have made the CL finals 2 years in a row and we have beaten Man City, Bayern, Napoli, PSG and Barcelona in those 2 years. City, Bayern and Barcelona have been beaten in a 2-legged contest.

There is no luck. There is no fortune. We have made the final in the biggest, toughest and most important tournament in club football.

City are a great team, but they don't have it. They won't win a CL any time soon and certainly not next season. You need something special, which they do not possess. Their club doesn't, their fans don't, their manager doesn't.

I’ve always felt that the Champions League is far harder to fluke your way through than any other cup competition.

Assuming the team in question is a ‘lesser side’ then the chances are they end up in pot 3 or 4 and therefore are likely to have a tricky group stage, and then have to navigate 6 matches of which half are home and half away, just to get to the final, and although the luck of the draw may give you one or maybe (rarely) two favourable ties, you’re almost always going to have to beat a top side to get to the final.

It’s a world of difference from, say, the FA Cup, where the likes of Wigan can win at home to Man City via a scoreline which would almost certainly be overturned were a second leg to be played.

To get to 2 finals on the spin is obviously a fairly concrete sign of a top side, I’d be interested to know how many other sides have even done that? Bayern, Madrid and the Mancs are the only ones that spring immediately to mind, I’m sure there are others that I’m forgetting but the point is that it’s extremely hard to do.

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Re: Chasing the Title
« Reply #16879 on: May 18, 2019, 11:58:10 pm »
The CL is unquestionably a ridiculously hard competition to win, to get to the final of even, and that’s shown by the amount of times very very very good league sides have got nowhere near the final.

You can sometimes be a good cup side, or get a good run, but to do it twice on the bounce is only the sign of one thing: you’re a fucking boss side.