Topic: The unravelling. A team, manager and fans shafted by transfer incompetence

[Gnurglan]

Yes you could still do better with a 100m than what you did.

[Suareznumber7]

Don't know much about Depay but totally underwhelming regarding the others, same old if accurate, so little change in the approach to purchases.  Continuing to look for  'value' and 'promise'.

This is the strategy at the current moment for transfer signings.  That may change this summer but I wouldn't bet on it. 

[robertobaggio37]

committee consisting of  Ian Ayre

Please tell me this is joke, jesus fucking crist.

[Timbo's Goals]

The worrying thing for me is this - i dont think Brendan has a good eye for a player either. It feels like NONE of them should be making decisions and we need to get in a well respected DOF.

Walshy lad,  I can't argue one way or the other with that highlighted bit.

a] If he hasn't - then you would have to wonder why - as an intelligent, logical and rational man steeped in football - he hasn't?

b]If he has - then it's only what you'd expect of a highly intelligent, logical and rational man steeped in football

As for this same man going along with a hierarchy that seemed to have a blind spot in realising what we as supporters all realised - namely we simply had to replace/supplement as closely as possible the mobile attacking threat of Suarez and Sturridge - I can only presume he'd become complacent regarding Sturridge's vulnerability based on the season just gone and had sort of assumed that he'd always have Sturridge as his main man. If that is the case then he deserves kicking all along Walton Breck but in no way should that be taken as anything other than a supporter's anger at managerial shortsightedness which in no way means he's not the right man for the job long term or at least until he shows what he can do with an "actual attack" next season. 

Of course, it goes without saying that if it is a] then who can argue that yes indeed we do need someone who actually knows what/who we need

 

[muyuu]

to be honest I think Babel would get a lot of games in our current side.

Definitely. In his day Babel was better than a lot of this lot and had pace, which a lot of LFC fans obsess about. Or Cisse for that matter.

[PhaseOfPlay]

Walshy lad,  I can't argue one way or the other with that highlighted bit.

a] If he hasn't - then you would have to wonder why - as an intelligent, logical and rational man steeped in football - he hasn't?

b]If he has - then it's only what you'd expect of a highly intelligent, logical and rational man steeped in football

As for this same man going along with a hierarchy that seemed to have a blind spot in realising what we as supporters all realised - namely we simply had to replace/supplement as closely as possible the mobile attacking threat of Suarez and Sturridge - I can only presume he'd become complacent regarding Sturridge's vulnerability based on the season just gone and had sort of assumed that he'd always have Sturridge as his main man. If that is the case then he deserves kicking all along Walton Breck but in no way should that be taken as anything other than a supporter's anger at managerial shortsightedness which in no way means he's not the right man for the job long term or at least until he shows what he can do with an "actual attack" next season. 

Of course, it goes without saying that if it is a] then who can argue that yes indeed we do need someone who actually knows what/who we need

 

To be fair, though, Clough was nothing without Peter Taylor's eye for a player, so it's not unheard of for a manager to not really be able to spot talent but who can train it up. Terry Venables is another. Could spot the obvious, but other than that, has a far better reputation for training players than spotting them. Souness couldn't spot a player either. It's not something that comes with the territory all the time

[Rob Dylan]

The start of last season I was predicting the same, and suarez dragged us on his heels to something wonderful. Until we unearth a gem at his level we'll be finishing 5th-7th for a fair while. Look at the last 10 years, this season is the norm, not the exception. The exception was last season, 08/09 and Istanbul. Pretty much every other season was mediocre in terms of what we'd expect. It's not changing soon. We'll do the odd run here and there, maybe win a cup at some point but our days at the top, top table as a dynasty aren't coming back any time soon. I like FSG. I like being run within our means, I like Henry and I like seeing photographs of his missus. But we're bang average and likely to stay that way until some offensively wealthy person takes us over.

Yes but at the start of the season you knew we had Suarez (who'd had a great season in 12-13) , and yet you still thought we wouldn't make the top 4. When people suggest that what we did last season was a fluke that only happened because we had Suarez, they ignore the fact that they knew at the start of the season that we had him, yet still didn't predict that we'd make the top 4 - let alone nearly win the league. He didn't just suddenly appear in our team, and at least part of our success is down to the job which the manager did and the fact that several other players had great seasons. Things can change very quickly in football, the manager can do a good job again and with the right signing(s) we can have a much better season next time. But there is a lot of work to be done, and the transfers this summer will be crucial.

In terms of a 'dynasty', I don't think any one team will have that kind of dominance again, there are too many teams competing at the top, what we have to aim for is trying to compete for the title every year, but when it's not possible, making sure we stay in the Champions League. But it's not easy to do that every year because there are four other teams up there.

[Timbo's Goals]

To be fair, though, Clough was nothing without Peter Taylor's eye for a player, so it's not unheard of for a manager to not really be able to spot talent but who can train it up. Terry Venables is another. Could spot the obvious, but other than that, has a far better reputation for training players than spotting them. Souness couldn't spot a player either. It's not something that comes with the territory all the time

Good shout PoP

Shows you how good Shanks really was in all departments too.

[Ciara (with a capital "C")]

The worrying thing for me is this - i dont think Brendan has a good eye for a player either. It feels like NONE of them should be making decisions and we need to get in a well respected DOF.

Why is a Director of Football better than a group of individuals on a comittee?

Genuine question for you and anyone else who wants to answer it as it's something that has baffled me.

What quantifies one person who isn't involved in the training of the squad, the tactical implementations and the day-to-day efforts, to say what player would best fit that team and system over a bunch of people?

It's very hard for me to see what the pros and cons are.

Forgive me for being basic, but if a manager has a philosophy, a way of playing and his own ideologies then why isn't he in charge of signing players?

I'm not having a go at anyone, I am just genuinely interested.

If I am baking a cake and I need ingredients but I am not allowed to buy them, that is left with some other people under my general instructions 'icing, eggs, flour, sugar' etc... then how can I be expected to bake the cake I wanted to bake? Do I just work with what I was given and make the closest thing I can to my cake, or do I take all the ingredients, look at them and figure out which cake would be better? Bearing in mind that will take more time, more preparation etc... whilst the Great British Bake Off final is already underway.

Why does a Txiki Begiristain or Franco Baldini or Joe Kinnear (lol) know better than a manager?

Again, a genuine question as it is something that baffles me a little.

[Ciara (with a capital "C")]

Fantastic post.

The only bit I'd marginally take issue with is the thing which prompted me to post the thing in the first instance which is that I really do think I've seen mountains of evidence this seson telling me that a pair of fast mobile attacking/goalscoring players could very easily and readily been acquired by the club to at least go some way towards replacing what Suarez and Sturridge gave us. As it is we have not even fielded once this season an attack worthy of the name.

Also don't forget Origi in your vision of next season - from what I've seen I think he has all the ingredients in place to really make a difference

As it is I blame the club. Others blame Rodgers. As you say it has been done to death - and possibly nobody does know anything for sure - but your post signifies that folks could if they wanted to formulate posts which offer a fresh and interesting slant on things.

Well in Ciara.

 

Thanks!

I didn't mention Origi because I'm not sure on him. I haven't seen him play too often but I have an LFC-supporting brother living in France who watches quite a bit of French football who doesn't think he's anywhere near ready for PL football.

That's all I have to go on so I am not expecting much to be honest.

[Twitter.com]

DoF is standard in almost every club, UK are a bit behind with "manager" concept but this is chaning too.

[Cid]

Er okay brendan me old china - pick which you want - is it to be tripe and onions or Tripe and radish?

can't I have steak and chips?

nah. sorry mate - tripe and onions or tripe and radish it is.

Er - eeny meeny miny mo - ok I'll take the tripe and onions.

Right. Ian'll just tell them to add a few more million to the fee and we'll get him here.

Coo - ta muchly. What a great bunch you fellas are, leaving the final say to me.

Don't mention it. You're the fuckin boss pal.

The lengths people will go to to absolve Rodgers of Blame is astonishing.

Let's be clear here. Borini, Allen, Lovren, Lallana. They came from Rodgers and nobody else.  This idea that he's given Sophie's choice over every fucking signing is utter, utter bullshit.

[clinical]

Wait so Rodgers thinks our transfer and way we go about them is working . As I was saying before we never learn and that's why I fully expect us to be shopping in mid table of the league again.

The mentality of the players we bring is all wrong. They aren't winners. Lallana and lovren thought they'd made it when they joined us. How about you start from scratch. You haven't made anything.

[SerbianScouser]

This idea that he's given Sophie's choice over every fucking signing is utter, utter bullshit.

He was in the area it matters the most - striker department.

[PhaseOfPlay]

Why is a Director of Football better than a group of individuals on a comittee?

Genuine question for you and anyone else who wants to answer it as it's something that has baffled me.

What quantifies one person who isn't involved in the training of the squad, the tactical implementations and the day-to-day efforts, to say what player would best fit that team and system over a bunch of people?

It's very hard for me to see what the pros and cons are.

Forgive me for being basic, but if a manager has a philosophy, a way of playing and his own ideologies then why isn't he in charge of signing players?

I'm not having a go at anyone, I am just genuinely interested.

If I am baking a cake and I need ingredients but I am not allowed to buy them, that is left with some other people under my general instructions 'icing, eggs, flour, sugar' etc... then how can I be expected to bake the cake I wanted to bake? Do I just work with what I was given and make the closest thing I can to my cake, or do I take all the ingredients, look at them and figure out which cake would be better? Bearing in mind that will take more time, more preparation etc... whilst the Great British Bake Off final is already underway.

Why does a Txiki Begiristain or Franco Baldini or Joe Kinnear (lol) know better than a manager?

Again, a genuine question as it is something that baffles me a little.

It's much easier to explain your mechanics to one person than to 3, 4 or 5 people and have them all on the same page. With that many people, not only are they hearing their own version of what you are saying, they also have their own vision that they want to bring to the table. A single DoF is one voice and one pair of eyes (even if he is filtering other people's information before going to the manager). It's much easier for two people to agree to a vision than it is for 4 or 5. It's dealing with one set of questions rather than five or six.

It's like on here - you post a topic, and then you have to answer questions from 5-20 different people with differing views and different agendas. But if you have a single conversation with one poster (by PM, say), you get a lot more information across and back, more specifically, and you can iron out misunderstandings a hell of a lot quicker. Consensus is a lot easier to reach between two people, than 4 or 5, I think.

[Timbo's Goals]

By his own words the decision to go with lambert, balotelli and borini as the only alternatives to sturridge was his [Brendans] ultimately. And he [Brendan] has to pay the piper for the consequences of that decision on our season.

Tripe and onions or tripe and radish Brendan lad?

 

[Cid]

He was in the area it matters the most - striker department.

He got the signings he prioritised. A shit cb we didn't need and an average cam we didn't need. We massively overpaid for both and had very little left for a decent striker. Could we have got better for 16m? Probably, but not when we fucked about all summer trying to buy southhampton.

[Harinder]

Good shout PoP

Shows you how good Shanks really was in all departments too.

Aided by Geoff Twentyman 

Everything I've read on Geoff makes me wish we had exactly the same kind of person now in the ranks.

[clinical]

We'll sign some players in the mid table bracket hoping they'll come good in a few years. We'll finish 5th-7th next year, the year after we'll have a tilt at CL football, then back to 5th-7th again. Won't matter who's manager. Start getting used to it.

Yep. We're the only club to spend £20m and above on the likes of Lovren, Lallana, Downing, Carroll, (£100m! on those 4, just let that sink in) probably Benteke too this summer.

No other club would be stupid enough to do it and pull out the running straight away. Gives us a free run at them in terms of wages though so it's all good in FSGs eyes.

Lovren, Lallana and Balotelli are the reason we're in this mess, they were senior players we bought for a lot of money and to a degree they've all failed.

[SerbianScouser]

He got the signings he prioritised. A shit cb we didn't need and an average cam we didn't need. We massively overpaid for both and had very little left for a decent striker. Could we have got better for 16m? Probably, but not when we fucked about all summer trying to buy southhampton.

Don`t know why you think we had only 16m left, we had considerably more than that. No one was available. It`s not easy to find players who can improve us, if it wasn`t not every other player would be a failure.

[muyuu]

DoF is standard in almost every club, UK are a bit behind with "manager" concept but this is chaning too.

Not necessarily "behind". It's a different philosophy that worked just fine a few years ago and would work just fine, given the right circumstances.

For instance, Mourinho in Madrid demanded the DoF out and got it. Benitez went to LFC and also to Italy to have full managerial powers. Different clubs have different structures, and there are different philosophies as well.

[seal75]

Ajax fan by any chance?

Why are you asking, he's on a Liverpool forum.

[Timbo's Goals]

Rodgers has the final say on signings, but they are identified by a committee consisting of the manager, chief executive Ian Ayre, director Mike Gordon, head of analysis Michael Edwards, head of recruitment Dave Fallows and chief scout Barry Hunter.

The lengths people will go to to absolve Rodgers of Blame is astonishing.

Let's be clear here. Borini, Allen, Lovren, Lallana. They came from Rodgers and nobody else.  This idea that he's given Sophie's choice over every fucking signing is utter, utter bullshit.

Whatever you say Cid.

 

But to paraphrase your words lets' be absolutely clear here because whilst the thrust of your point is clearly mistaken if what Pearce implies is actually true and Rodgers is given the menu to make a selection, the dismissing of these players is way off beam and it was nothing to do with these players not performing why this season has disintegrated. Rather it is the mobile attacking goalscoring types - loads available as the season has more than demonstrated to us all - that we failed to bring in to go towards replacing what we were losing that has fucked us up.

Lallana is ace. Injuries have fucked up his entire season as anyone who knows football will tell you.

Allen, too, is a decent player who has seen injuries disrupt his time here.

Those two will definitely serve us well long term.

Lovren has clearly lost confidence but in recent games has put in two tackles that would have earned him lavish praise from Mark Lawrenson and mascherano and are as good possibly technically better certainly as good as any tackle enacted by either of those amazing players. I know two tackles don't make a summer or whatever but he's certainly showing signs of being the player he was at Soton.

Borini - hmmm - never aan LFC standard player - ditto Aspas.

[Cid]

Don`t know why you think we had only 16m left, we had considerably more than that. No one was available. It`s not easy to find players who can improve us, if it wasn`t not every other player would be a failure.

You honestly think we couldn't have done better had we prioritised better? Take Lovren, Lallana and Balotelli off our shopping lost and we'd have had about 61m and 250k wages to offer.

And not one of those players would have been missed. We fucked up in summer because Rodgers prioitised players we didn't need. That's a fact.

[PhaseOfPlay]

Aided by Geoff Twentyman 

Everything I've read on Geoff makes me wish we had exactly the same kind of person now in the ranks.

And Andy Beattie

[Johns_Barn]

Good post, this is basically it in a nutshell, every season it is City, Chelsea, Utd, Arsenal well every season apart from last..... All 4 clubs pay top wages for top players, we don't seem to do this and if we don't start doing we will fall too far behind and it will be very hard to get back to the level we want to be. Many people will disagree and say its not all about paying top money but it obviously is as the league table does not lie.

I'd suggest LFC have simply not been smart enough for about 2 decades. We've been spunking big dough on decent to gash players throughout this period. Knowing what we do now; knowing how FSG want to operate, FFP and the average of our finishes for the last 10yrs, it's clear we should be investing heavily in our scouting network and club organisers (DoF) and coaches.
Christ, if it stops us giving all the money to the likes of Southampton then that is surely progress?
We may not be a pull to top drawer ballers on the rise in world football but make smarter acquisitions, (young-under-the-radar + excellent pros coming to their twilight) in addition to those incubated internally and there;'s no reason why we cannot break the top 4 on a regular basis. When I look at how Madrid spent and won so little, I know it cannot soley be down to money.

[Timbo's Goals]

Aided by Geoff Twentyman 

Everything I've read on Geoff makes me wish we had exactly the same kind of person now in the ranks.

He turned me down for a trial in '66. Never forgave him for what the potentially amazing creative right half the Reds missed out on.

 

I think I'm right in saying Geoff oversaw youth recrutment in Shanks early years H.

Shanks it was who knew the score in those early days. Milne, St John, Yeats, Stevo, Strong and a bit later Thompson were very much his spots plus recognizing the home grown promise of Hunt, Cally, Lawler, Byrne, lawrence

[SerbianScouser]

Rodgers prioitised players we didn't need. That's a fact.

It`s easy to say that with hindsight. Majority here in the summer wanted numbers and depth to deal with all the competitions and rightly so. If we brought someone instead of Balo who could score at least 10 goals nobody would be now talking about Lallanas and Lovrens as we would firmly be in Top 4 race.

[fowlermagic]

I just don't know where we are anymore or where we are going and I've felt that way since the summer really. I don't know how people can comment with any degree of certainty what's right or wrong for the Club going forward.

I have felt from the summer that there has been so much negativity around the Club and the players, especially Gerrard, that this season was always going to be hard and we just had to fight our way through it. I haven't been happy with large parts of it but I haven't let it get me down.

The negativity surrounding Gerrard, which has dragged on all season whether we liked it or not, then Gerrard announcing he was leaving and more pressure being heaped on him and the players to do something 'special' for him, crashing out of the CL, being piss poor in the EL, having so many injuries particularly with Sturridge, Sterling and Henderson's contract situation and facing this season without Suarez - all of it has been hard to deal with.

We scored 101 PL goals last season, with Suarez and Sturridge getting 52 between them. We essentially lost that this season. It was always going to be hard to replicate that, that's why we all wanted a better defence, a better defensive midfielder in place and someone who can compete with Sturridge who can chip in with goals. We got a slightly better defensive performance on stats alone, but no-one to help out with the goals. Whose fault that is has been discussed to the death on here.

I just don't think any amount of money could have prepared us for losing Suarez and then Sturridge to injury. And Gerrard to an extent too, with his goals and set pieces. You can't magic that back. Add to the mix a host of players coming in and needing time to settle, some not setting at all and some being absolute disappointments.

It's alot for a mananger and a Club to manage. What other Club would have had that upheavel to then go and challenge again or finish top 4?

We peaked too soon IMO. We put the accelerators on and went for it, and then it fell apart. Players left, egos were dinted and there has just been a total sense of failure and negativity around the Club.

I love Steven Gerrard and everything he has done for this football Club. I will miss him and I will remember him forever. But I cannot wait until he leaves. We need that downer surrounding him gone and off our shoulders. I am personally finding it hard to move on whilst he is here. I think that's why this season I've felt like I've taken a back seat as a fan and not got too invested in CL push or get my hopes up. I just want this season done with and I've felt that since last August.

Every single player needs time to settle and adapt - whether they move domestically or internationally and for me, Lallana, Moreno, Can, Lovren, Ballotelli, Markovic etc... are all the same. They need time to settle. Some have settled better than others and some could quite possibly leave in the summer. I don't think we'll see the best of those players until next season. But the biggest thing is the manager finding a system he can identify with and the players slip into.

We have far too many players who 'can do a job' and not enough masters in those positions. Again, injuries play their part but when you bring on a new signing, a winger (Markovic) to play through the middle of the pitch to give you an outlet with the ball, when your best ball-playing midfield (Can) is sitting in defence, then you start to ponder whether the manager is entirely happy with the system or the personnel. He needs to get that right and he needs to start playing people in the natural positions.

Don't have a decent right back? Go and buy one. Don't have a decent striker? Go and buy one. I am so fucking fed up watching Ibe, Markovic, Lallana, Sterling etc... playing wing back. Or Countinho or Sterling upfront alone. It doesn't work.

Find your system, drop your ego and let players you brought in go if you need to, and sign the right players for the system. Don't go the Harry Redknapp route of throwing enough shit against the wall in the hope that some of it will stick. If we want progression then we need to progress and we won't do that by filling round holes with square pegs.

Personally, if we can get £30m for Balotelli, Borini, Aspas, Coates, Alberto, Enrique, Lovren then I would take it and spend it on a striker, and give them Steven Gerrard's wages. And Johnson's too if need be.

We desperately need better resources upfront.

Sterling, Ibe, Coutinho, Markovic and Lallana are a decent set of options playing across the front 3 behind a striker. Sturridge, another goalscorer and someone like Danny Ings would be plentiful IMO.

Ideally, we would sign a quality goalkeeper, rightback and defensive midfielder too but the number one, absolute priority has to be a striker.

Brendan deserves another season at this. My only concern is that we don't have the bottle for it and that makes signing the correct players this time around massively important. Winners - in whatever form they come in.

Its hard to give Brendan another year after your post though as if we don't know where we are going now then why let the same man at the wheel? I am sick to death of chopping & changing players every year or a manager every 3 - 5 but some of the reasons you listed are pretty thread bare once you dig a little deeper.

In reality we knew Suarez was inkling for a move up to 18 months before he got it. Best we could do to fill his shoes with 40m plus designated for a stinker (not ms) ...Ballotelli?? Even SG departure has being in the horizon for the past two seasons I guess and was probably in Brendan's to do list since Day 1, ie I will have to plan for the man's demise as a player & eventually departure. 3 years later we don't have his replacement in house and honestly our midfield look the weakest part of the team before he even goes.

Contract situations happen every season and if we keep struggling for top 4 then all our best players will be pondering possible options. Until we can start delivering honours some players will never be happy & its something we have seen for a long time now.

We were never going to replace Suarez's goals & Sturridge's injuries have added to our woes but with 100m plus to spend surely be to god we could have done better than we have. Southampton were decimated and a new manager went out with less money to spend and got their house in better order a lot quicker than we ever did.

Did we peak too soon or did we just strike it lucky with one player who's talents were good enough to hide the weaknesses that now are shining way too bright this season? Is our system based on a 35 league goal striker making the rest look great or will the parts come together as a sum to become a top team? Brendan has to do a lot better with the jigsaw pieces he has as no matter what reason you list as its very hard to look around you and see clubs do just as well , who have newer managers and less money / players to work with and seem to be a lot clearer on how they want their team to play. Again I don't want to see a manager change quite yet but its hard to see a team play with their holiday tickets already protruding from their back pockets and a manger who seems to be content with the effort he is getting while struggling to get anything out of whatever system he is trying this minute.

[PhaseOfPlay]

Is our system based on a 35 league goal striker making the rest look great or will the parts come together as a sum to become a top team?

Maybe not 35 goals, but most systems are based on at least one top scoring striker. For any team.

[Pistolero]

Simon Hughes's book on Twentyman - Secret Diary of a Liverpool Scout - is a must read for reds fans imo.....although it will make you yearn for the days when we did everything right - on and off the pitch...........£1.99 Kindle edition on Amazon...bargain and no mistake

http://www.amazon.co.uk/SECRET-DIARY-LIVERPOOL-SCOUT-Hughes-ebook/dp/B005KAHF0S/ref=la_B0039ZJCXY_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1430489120&sr=1-2

[fowlermagic]

Maybe not 35 goals, but most systems are based on at least one top scoring striker. For any team.

Last season we had two strikers out there most days capable of producing, this season we have started a lot of games with no one in the starting 11 as a recognized striker and 2 or 3 strikers on the bench. A system with a false #9 or converted winger come striker gets you this.

[Mainstanderbutsitting]

This is a genuine question, not a wind-up.

Is Brendan a coach rather than a manager?

Is he the "Peter Taylor" or, dare I say it, "Colin Harvey" of modern football?

[Mainstanderbutsitting]

His man-management has been questioned several times this season. He might be the players mate rather than Boss.

[GregCharrua]

I'm curious, is there a specific team in time that you could point to and say: this is how Rodgers wants to play?

I thought at first it was Pep's Barcelona, but then Rodgers doesn't want to play with a Destroyer - or would we call Busquets's role a Controller? We also don't press, at best we pressure high but that's rare as well.

It doesn't seem very Dutch as, it seems, Rodgers doesn't like to go very direct or play diagonal passes - excepting last season with Gerrard + SAS, a style of play we turned away from and did not recruit for after Suarez left.

When we moved to 343, we seemed more like last years team - but then why did we sign a traditional CF (Lambert), a Trequartista-cum-striker who doesn't score and is not mobile (Balotelli), and send off Aspas who of the three would have fit best in such a system, regardless of his corners?

But now that the pressure is off, the 343 as we knew it is gone and we're back to the slow (and poorly done) buildup, no-press, followed by a sudden impatience in the final third that leads to a loss of possession.

We don't look like we're 'learning a system' in these matches. It looks like different players are playing different systems at different times.

There's been some good play in the last two games, it hasn't all been shit, but I'm getting tired of the 'well we need goal scorers that are mobile'. If thats the case, why didn't we get any and send off the one we had and never played? Following Rodgers recent comments about how great we did recruiting this past summer and how he put the stamp on it all, I'm just left scratching my head.

What is Rodgers vision? What is the plan? What are we doing?

To be fair, if its Rodgers that's confused, how can a TC or DoF or anyone else buy players that will work out for us? You could break transfer records but if we're this disorientated and changeable, how are they or any other player going to be at their best?

[Pistolero]

Thing is mate I've been saying that bit in bold for coming up 3 decades. My dad was raised in the dynasty era of LFC, I think this season, and last has taught me that that isn't coming back. It's taken years to learn it, and last season nearly wiped out what I'd learned altogether, but in pretty much every sense the liverpool my dad brought me up on is long since dead.

The fans aren't the same, the ground isn't the same, the club isn't the same and I'm pretty much convinced we'll spend the next 25 years trying to get as close to winning the league as we have in the previous 25 and getting the same results. Accepting where we are now makes it easier, for me, and that's what I've done this season.

I don't even really like a lot of what Liverpool FC is in 2015 if I'm completely honest. Just another global corporation really. I'm not a scouser, so I'm part of the disease rather than the cure if I'm honest...but when i used to go with my dad [who is a scouser, like his father before him] i was afraid to shout incase someone heard my wool accent. I've been to games in the main stand these last 2 years when I've genuinely not heard a scouse accent all game, it's fucking wrong.

I've strayed slightly into the OOT/scouser debate again, but for what it's worth without scousers this club ceases to be LFC. The less scousers in the ground there is, the less it feels like liverpool football club to me and the more it feels like 'the liverpool sports experience'. I don't really care if they're north face lads sniffing lemo - they're scousers, it's their club. Not norweigian lads, not southerners, not thomas cook's gang, not even wools like me [who'd like to think he knows the score] - its called Liverpool football club, if scousers don't like going/don't get to go it ceases to be that really. And it just becomes a corporate attraction in liverpool, which is the way it's going...

I've had all this on my mind for a while now so I'm just going to go for it...

I don't like how much it costs, i fucking hate mighty red, I get really fucking annoyed how regulars get ripped off by thomas cook, the fact people still attended hull in some reasonable numbers annoys me, the SOS lads getting told 'you won't achieve anything' annoys me, Peter Mcdowall announcing the team instead of george annoys me, people staring at me for singing annoys me, to be honest the fact anfield serves wine annoys me a bit, selfie sticks annoy me, selfies annoy me, full kit wankers annoy me, 'who are ya' annoys me, the liverpool fan with the cockney accent sat behind me at the chelsea game going 'classic facking mourinho mate' annoys me, half and halfs annoy me, Wanker Hats annoy me, people filming minutes sileneces or YNWA annoys me....it just feels like every single thing I knew at Anfield is fucked. It used to feel - genuinely - like a quasi religious/spiritual experience going to anfield, it's one up from going to a Westfield now.

Now getting back to the point -  all this was briefly forgotten last year, but now it's back and badder than ever as we slump to another nothing season in what's been by and large a decade of them. It'd be great to think back on last season as the 'norm', that next year we'll be right back up in the mix, but as it stands it's very, very hard to see. United were shit and we were boss last year. Fuck me that was great. But they've spent their way back in, and they'll spend more again and stay there. We might fight a bit harder, might even make it from time to time, but I can't see us getting back to the top table, I really can't. Thank fuck for Rafa and that 5th european cup, it's going to be some time before we add to it.

At mention of Rafa - all this feeling started when Liverpool sacked Rafa, for me. It felt like the club was being run as a business, not as something governed by the heart. I remember texting mates about it thinking how flat out wrong it was. It's not as simple as this of course - 1992, hick and gillette, the loss of the old kop - lots of things have been steadily ripping the heart out of LFC for years, I guess it was just when Rafa was sacked I fully started to realize I was supporting a business institution, not a football club.

I've gone right around the houses with all this, suppose I just wanted to get it all off my chest. This post is more or less how I've felt for 3 or 4 seasons now, but last year did a wonderful job putting it off. But it's hard not to feel that that was the blip, and the norm has now resumed.

I don't know how to sum up. I can't really, it's just a random collection of ranted thoughts. I guess after being so sure up to THAT chelsea game last season that we had one foot back in the holy land, this season has been by and large a relentless tidal wave of shite. And that's what the norm is. I just can't see it changing.

Boss post mate...bleak, but I think you've crystallized the thoughts of many who are growing ever more disheartened with the game as a whole - and with the culture and traditions of LFC that are being (permanently) eroded season by season.......

[clinical]

There's been some good play in the last two games, it hasn't all been shit, but I'm getting tired of the 'well we need goal scorers that are mobile'. If thats the case, why didn't we get any and send off the one we had and never played? Following Rodgers recent comments about how great we did recruiting this past summer and how he put the stamp on it all, I'm just left scratching my head.

Good post, I agree with it.

But exactly why didn't we. This is the whole point I've been trying to make. Why. We saw what worked for last season and got two lumps up front with limited movement. Shocking shocking tranfers.  We've had to put sterling up front because Lambert and Balotelli don't suit us.


He's even said we needed Sterlings pace up front and that's why we had to play him out of position. And yet... we're now linked strongly to Benteke, nothing is making any sense. It's almost like Rodgers is doing his best to put himself under pressure, or he's absolutely clueless when it comes to transfers

[The Gulleysucker]

I'd second that. It's a depressing post, but probably a pretty fair assessment of how many increasingly feel these days.

[007.lankyguy]

Not necessarily "behind". It's a different philosophy that worked just fine a few years ago and would work just fine, given the right circumstances.

For instance, Mourinho in Madrid demanded the DoF out and got it. Benitez went to LFC and also to Italy to have full managerial powers. Different clubs have different structures, and there are different philosophies as well.

Bonsky's not wrong though. Wenger has a lot of autonomy at Arsenal and that's about it. Mourinho doesn't have autonomy, Rafa, despite what you've said, does not have autonomy. Most managers do not have autonomy over transfers at all. They may have a little involvement but by and large, it's not their job. I even remember Ferguson criticising Rafa by saying that full control over transfers was the last thing he personally wanted. Alex Ferguson didn't want full control over transfers!

The problem is not that Rodgers doesn't get full control over transfers. The problem is if there is an underlying philosophy behind targets. I'd argue that Rodgers' own rumoured signings have less of a cohesive philosophy behind them than the ones the Committee are rumoured to have bought. That's my issue with our transfer setup - it's whether everyone is aware of the types of players we should be buying, not just price wise and age wise but tactically as well.

Rodgers sets the tactical and technical principles in place, then more or less relinquishes control. That's how I think it should be.

[jason67]

......

Great post that mate, pretty much where I am at the moment.