Author Topic: Roberto Firmino  (Read 2012816 times)

Offline plura

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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #11080 on: July 14, 2020, 04:36:53 pm »
At no time did I say other factors/stats are not important. My point is that they (assists stats specifically) can be misleading.

Hey, I didn't say that you implied other factors/stats are not important. I meant that having assists appreciated and other factors/stats appreciated also are not mutually exclusive. Meaning that I think assists should get its focus and appreciation. And so can other factors/stats also get.

Also, goals can be misleading also if you don't look closely. As it could be down to purely penalties, lucky tap ins and scoring ways beyond xG, etc.

Offline Eeyore

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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #11081 on: July 17, 2020, 10:32:53 pm »
It'd be super interesting to see passing maps for the whole season and compare them to previous seasons. I suspect we're going wide a lot more, and we're creating from wider areas lots more. That means Firmino is going to be less involved in terms of passes, key passes and assists. I suspect his pressing numbers are down because we press less as a team (but more efficiently) and his tackle/interception numbers are down because we have lots more of the ball. In short, his decline is a function of the way the team is playing.

Having said that, in terms of goal scoring, he's definitely finished less well this this season, as the XG to actual drop-off demonstrates. But he's also been unlucky and his confidence is probably at a lower ebb in front of goal right now. I'd love to see Minamino become a legitimate alternative to Bobby in the team. It'd lower the burden on him and also provide some healthy competition for places.

The big problem with that argument is Bobby's worth to the side is quantified by his overall contribution to our build up play. If our build up play is now focussed on going wider and getting crosses in, then would we better off with a natural goalscorer. 
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Offline 4pool

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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #11082 on: July 18, 2020, 12:06:58 am »
Possibly but it isn't just the number of goals he has scored that has dipped. For the 3 seasons prior to this Bobby had the same shot accuracy percentage each season of 45%. This season he is below 40% for the first time in his Liverpool career. As players hit their peak you expect their shot percentage to go up.

In 17/18 Bobby scored 15 League goals from 84 shots. This season he has scored 8 from 100 shots. The biggest thing though is that it is not as if Bobby is now taking a lot more low percentage shots. In 17/18 he scored 15 with an xG of 10.76. This season he has scored 8 with an xG of 16.28.

As I said earlier Bobby has now gone 10 league games without a goal and 12 without an assist. Pretty much all of his metrics are in decline.

You do realize the club have stat employees who are super geeks.

I think they know what Bobby brings to the side. And what his performances do for the rest of the group.

Jurgen gets briefings and player specific vids.

I'd wager you'll need a lot more to convince them Bobby isn't up to whatever perceptions you have of him.

Bobby is boss. They know it. If he wasn't, Jurgen would change the lineup to make us more efficient at scoring--as a team, not as an individual.
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Offline Marty 85

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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #11083 on: July 18, 2020, 12:41:40 am »
How many times do we need to have this conversation? I randomly clicked back in the thread to about 50-100 pages back and it was the same thing. At least then, other fans and many pundits never acknowledged so much what he brings to the team. Klopp came out and properly addressed what he does, fully supported him and explained to everyone he's doing perfectly what is asked of him. This time around when Klopp addressed it you could tell he was fucked off and didn't go into so much detail and I don't fucking blame him. We're World, European and League champions. What more do people want? These are the same people who think we need a proper fucking goalscorer. It's ridiculous to think you can remove Bobby with a "proper goalscorer" and believe we'll function better. It shouldn't need explaining if you remove Bobby with a "proper goalscorer" then Salah and Manes goals dry up.

Offline Eeyore

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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #11084 on: July 18, 2020, 10:36:43 am »
How many times do we need to have this conversation? I randomly clicked back in the thread to about 50-100 pages back and it was the same thing. At least then, other fans and many pundits never acknowledged so much what he brings to the team. Klopp came out and properly addressed what he does, fully supported him and explained to everyone he's doing perfectly what is asked of him. This time around when Klopp addressed it you could tell he was fucked off and didn't go into so much detail and I don't fucking blame him. We're World, European and League champions. What more do people want? These are the same people who think we need a proper fucking goalscorer. It's ridiculous to think you can remove Bobby with a "proper goalscorer" and believe we'll function better. It shouldn't need explaining if you remove Bobby with a "proper goalscorer" then Salah and Manes goals dry up.

Why would the goals for Mane and Mo dry up when it is the full backs who are generally providing the assists. Bobby is now 11 games without a goal and 13 without an assist. There seems to be an idea that there are only two alternatives. Either Bobby or a one dimensional 9 who only scores goals and doesn't contribute to the build up play.

Personally I think Bobby is in poor form and is low on confidence. That cannot be allowed to continue just because he works hard and contributes in other ways. Minamino hasn't looked great upto now but we looked a lot brighter when he came on the other night.

Let's hope Bobby gets back on the goal trail soon and sees an upturn in his confidence. Otherwise with a lack of midfielders chipping in there will be too much pressure on Mane or Mo to keep scoring.
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Offline El Lobo

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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #11085 on: July 18, 2020, 10:43:32 am »
Hard to argue really.

There’s not recognising what Bobby brings to the side, which I don’t think is the case here at all. He’s just in poor form and has been for some time now. We’ve set records with him so it’s certainly not that anyone should want him dropping, but we do need him to be playing better. It’s not a huge coincidence that our form has dropped with his.
If he's being asked to head the ball too frequently - which isn't exactly his specialty - it could affect his ear and cause an infection. Especially if the ball hits him on the ear directly.

Offline JosephStallone

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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #11086 on: July 18, 2020, 10:45:45 am »
How many times do we need to have this conversation? I randomly clicked back in the thread to about 50-100 pages back and it was the same thing. At least then, other fans and many pundits never acknowledged so much what he brings to the team. Klopp came out and properly addressed what he does, fully supported him and explained to everyone he's doing perfectly what is asked of him. This time around when Klopp addressed it you could tell he was fucked off and didn't go into so much detail and I don't fucking blame him. We're World, European and League champions. What more do people want? These are the same people who think we need a proper fucking goalscorer. It's ridiculous to think you can remove Bobby with a "proper goalscorer" and believe we'll function better. It shouldn't need explaining if you remove Bobby with a "proper goalscorer" then Salah and Manes goals dry up.
I agreed with you. You pointed out the right issue here

Offline LallanaInPyjamas

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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #11087 on: July 18, 2020, 01:06:09 pm »
It shouldn't need explaining if you remove Bobby with a "proper goalscorer" then Salah and Manes goals dry up.

We signed Salah and Mané because of the goals, pace and creativity they offered at their former clubs, and now they would walk into pretty much any side in the world; the idea that they couldn't score without Firmino is an absolutely baffling one and just because it's frequently said, doesn't make it true.

Offline rebel23

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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #11088 on: July 19, 2020, 09:12:38 am »
You can't replace Bobby easily .. it would cost crazy money.  If we couldn't afford Werner then how are we going to sign someone who is more prolific?  Forget it.   Maybe look at it in one or two years time.

Offline Wool

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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #11089 on: July 19, 2020, 09:53:56 am »
I don't think this is anything new with him. He tends to play well for a few months, play horribly for a few (but doesn't get criticism for it because only Salah and Mane really get it from our fans when it comes to the front three), and then back to being good. I do think we can upgrade in that area but it'll cost a lot of money which we don't seem to have so eh. And at the end of the day back to back CL finals with one victory, a league title, a super cup, a club world cup and so on.. it's hardly a huge issue.

Offline Clayton Bigsby

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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #11090 on: July 19, 2020, 09:56:56 am »
I don't think this is anything new with him. He tends to play well for a few months, play horribly for a few (but doesn't get criticism for it because only Salah and Mane really get it from our fans when it comes to the front three), and then back to being good.

If he plays against Chelsea I hope the team do all they can to break his league duck at home. I know it is small time and the most important thing is the win, but I still would like for it to happen.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2020, 10:06:41 am by Clayton Bigsby »

Offline IanZG

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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #11091 on: July 19, 2020, 11:03:41 am »
I wouldn't say he's had a poor season. Maybe goal scoring wise, but from an overall perspective I thought it was a very good season, he was excellent early on, out best player at the very start of the season, pretty much won us the world cup single handedly and was an unfortunate Adrian error away from taking us through against Atletico. Sure, his form dropped off in the second part of the season, but that can be said for pretty much all the players, and it's understandable given our situation. As long as he doesn't take that form into the next season, there won't be a need to replace him anytime soon. Hope Minamino pushes him a bit for the starting spot, though.

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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #11092 on: July 19, 2020, 01:00:18 pm »
You can't replace Bobby easily .. it would cost crazy money.  If we couldn't afford Werner then how are we going to sign someone who is more prolific?  Forget it.   Maybe look at it in one or two years time.
Because it's not as straightforward as that. We decided that paying that amount at that exact time, with that deadline, for that player, for that position/role in the squad, with the covid situation exactly as it was at that time, was not a goer for us.

Some months on, or with a different player, for a different price, for a for a different - even slightly different - role in the squad etc etc...
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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #11093 on: July 19, 2020, 01:15:26 pm »
You can't replace Bobby easily .. it would cost crazy money.  If we couldn't afford Werner then how are we going to sign someone who is more prolific?  Forget it.   Maybe look at it in one or two years time.


You could have easily said that about Coutinho though. You do not replace the player you tweak the system to replace the qualities that player brings to the table. Look at the way our full backs especially Trent has become our creative force. Or look at the way we retain possession better and thus press less. Or the way we tend to beat the press by going long early.

All of those things minimize the need for Bobby if he is out of form.
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Offline SerbianScouser

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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #11094 on: July 19, 2020, 01:26:46 pm »
You could have easily said that about Coutinho though. You do not replace the player you tweak the system to replace the qualities that player brings to the table. Look at the way our full backs especially Trent has become our creative force. Or look at the way we retain possession better and thus press less. Or the way we tend to beat the press by going long early.

All of those things minimize the need for Bobby if he is out of form.
The classic case of throwing baby out with bathwater.

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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #11095 on: July 19, 2020, 01:28:51 pm »
You can't replace Bobby easily .. it would cost crazy money.  If we couldn't afford Werner then how are we going to sign someone who is more prolific?  Forget it.   Maybe look at it in one or two years time.

We’re not going to.

He’s in a run of poor form in front of goal, it won’t last forever. He’s still the lynchpin of our team, he will be next season and most likely beyond that. We would definitely benefit from signing another attacking player in the upcoming transfer window, and the chances of that happening are probably dependent on the futures of Origi and Shaqiri, but any talk of replacing Firmino is absolute lunacy.

Offline RedForeverTT

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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #11096 on: July 21, 2020, 03:49:01 pm »
The dangerous  thing is there is practically no one in the club that could even remotely takes his place.

Take Salah out and there is still Mane on the other side or Minamino/Harvey could step in.

You take Firmino away and our performance suffers

Offline NotTooXabi12

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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #11097 on: July 21, 2020, 08:08:07 pm »
You think Elliot or Minamino could step in for Salah?

Offline 4pool

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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #11098 on: July 21, 2020, 08:17:02 pm »
Shit lay out like the Echo. But

https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/gini-wijnaldum-immediately-questioned-roberto-22383673

Gini Wijnaldum 'immediately' questioned Roberto Firmino in dressing room over Liverpool role

The Dutchman was required to play as a False 9 in the 3-0 Champions League first leg defeat at Barcelona last season, and his admiration for Firmino grew as a result
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Offline JackWard33

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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #11099 on: July 21, 2020, 10:37:44 pm »
Firminos run of bad finishing luck is pretty freakish
Expect him to score at a normal rate next year, close to double the goals and loads of bullshit posts about ‘confidence’ and so on as to why he’s returned to form.

Here’s how unlikely his run has been at Anfield (source Infogol)

“Highlighting the unlikelihood of Firmino's barren spell, our model indicates that the probability of scoring zero goals from 7.73 xG is a miniscule 0.04%”

Offline kloppagetime

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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #11100 on: July 22, 2020, 01:31:57 am »
Firminos run of bad finishing luck is pretty freakish
Expect him to score at a normal rate next year, close to double the goals and loads of bullshit posts about ‘confidence’ and so on as to why he’s returned to form.

Here’s how unlikely his run has been at Anfield (source Infogol)

“Highlighting the unlikelihood of Firmino's barren spell, our model indicates that the probability of scoring zero goals from 7.73 xG is a miniscule 0.04%”
Exactly for me it's like that season where Benzema only scored five league goals for Madrid and now look at him he's back to his best and one of the best strikers in the world. Firmino's all round game is still class all he's doing is not taking his chances but next season I expect him to have a bounce back season.

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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #11101 on: July 22, 2020, 02:28:24 am »
Bin him! He's gone to shite. Give him the next two games to prove himself or bin him for the rest of the season!
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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #11102 on: July 22, 2020, 04:47:39 am »
Interested to see his xG for the last little while.

Offline Eeyore

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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #11103 on: July 22, 2020, 11:51:18 am »
Firminos run of bad finishing luck is pretty freakish
Expect him to score at a normal rate next year, close to double the goals and loads of bullshit posts about ‘confidence’ and so on as to why he’s returned to form.

Here’s how unlikely his run has been at Anfield (source Infogol)

“Highlighting the unlikelihood of Firmino's barren spell, our model indicates that the probability of scoring zero goals from 7.73 xG is a miniscule 0.04%”

I think that highlights one of the key issues with xG it is a pure mathematical model based on shooting positions. Scoring goals is hugely dependent on the mental side of things more specifically a player's confidence. In general confident strikers do better against their normal conversion rate whilst strikers low on confidence underachieve.

Confident strikers make easy chances look difficult, whilst strikers who are low on confidence often do the opposite. Personally I think the problem is how reliant we are on Bobby performing well. I think we need to come up with more viable options when Bobby isn't performing at his best. Take the pressure of Bobby.

More goals and creativity from midfield would be a big help. Better alternatives for the front three and a tactical tweak may also help. The biggest thing though would be linking the defence and front three when teams drop off. We are currently asking too much of Bobby for me. He is being forced to drop too deep because we aren't brilliant at getting penetrative passes in to the front three.

We have had an incredible season on the whole but we need to keep evolving and improving in certain areas.
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Offline JackWard33

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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #11104 on: July 22, 2020, 02:11:36 pm »
I think that highlights one of the key issues with xG it is a pure mathematical model based on shooting positions. Scoring goals is hugely dependent on the mental side of things more specifically a player's confidence. In general confident strikers do better against their normal conversion rate whilst strikers low on confidence underachieve.

Confident strikers make easy chances look difficult, whilst strikers who are low on confidence often do the opposite. Personally I think the problem is how reliant we are on Bobby performing well. I think we need to come up with more viable options when Bobby isn't performing at his best. Take the pressure of Bobby

As I posted - he’ll revert to the mean next season and people will post endless nonsense about him ‘getting his confidence back’

xG works not because someone thinks it’s a good idea but because it’s correlative and predictive over time.
It’s not a perfect correlation and it can be (and is being) improved...   but over time players taking shots achieve the same results from the same positions. A few players can over achieve their xG or under achieve it .. but the margins over time are narrow

Therefore if we see a player like Firmino whose hit is xG more or less over his career having a freak spell of not finishing we can be pretty sure as night follows day that he’ll revert to the mean

The idea of confidence in finishing is one of the most over blown in football.
Maybe it can affect how many shots a player takes (Firmino is actually taking slightly more than last year) but the idea that a professional players mental state is the governing factor in the direction and velocity a ball takes off their boot in the micro seconds of time it takes to kick a ball is pretty fanciful

It’s one of those belief systems that’s simultaneously both not provable of disprovable.
xG is provable / disprovable / critiqueable by test - confidence levels are entirely supposition 

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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #11105 on: July 22, 2020, 02:14:30 pm »
Would love to see Bobby get the winner tonight, or bang in 2 or 3 goals. 

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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #11106 on: July 22, 2020, 02:16:45 pm »
As I posted - he’ll revert to the mean next season and people will post endless nonsense about him ‘getting his confidence back’

xG works not because someone thinks it’s a good idea but because it’s correlative and predictive over time.
It’s not a perfect correlation and it can be (and is being) improved...   but over time players taking shots achieve the same results from the same positions. A few players can over achieve their xG or under achieve it .. but the margins over time are narrow

Therefore if we see a player like Firmino whose hit is xG more or less over his career having a freak spell of not finishing we can be pretty sure as night follows day that he’ll revert to the mean

The idea of confidence in finishing is one of the most over blown in football.
Maybe it can affect how many shots a player takes (Firmino is actually taking slightly more than last year) but the idea that a professional players mental state is the governing factor in the direction and velocity a ball takes off their boot in the micro seconds of time it takes to kick a ball is pretty fanciful

It’s one of those belief systems that’s simultaneously both not provable of disprovable.
xG is provable / disprovable / critiqueable by test - confidence levels are entirely supposition 

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Offline JackWard33

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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #11107 on: July 22, 2020, 02:23:21 pm »
Al's response will be epic, I'm very confident about it... :D

90% the reason for my post obv ;)

Offline ScouserAtHeart

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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #11108 on: July 22, 2020, 02:42:02 pm »
Quote
I remember one moment that really showed his desire to succeed. We had a few days off at the end of a regional championship, which we were going to use to prepare for the Copa Sao Paulo youth tournament. Roberto quite simply didn’t want to go home. He said he needed to keep training, to work on a few things. And that if he went home, it would just be one more mouth to feed. He said he’d only go home when he became a big player – when he had done something with his life. That was soon after he arrived. If I’m not mistaken, he went seven months without going back home.

https://theathletic.com/1921055/2020/07/22/liverpool-title-premier-league-salah-mane-henderson-firmino-van-ijk-alisson-trent-robertson-wijnaldum-milner-lallana-shaqiri-lovren-matip-oxlade/
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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #11109 on: July 22, 2020, 03:34:26 pm »
90% the reason for my post obv ;)

What's the other 20%?

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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #11111 on: July 22, 2020, 09:28:19 pm »
Bobbyyyyyyy!!!!  ;D
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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #11112 on: July 22, 2020, 09:28:28 pm »
Haha love it.
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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #11113 on: July 22, 2020, 09:28:38 pm »
:lmao

So typical.
If he's being asked to head the ball too frequently - which isn't exactly his specialty - it could affect his ear and cause an infection. Especially if the ball hits him on the ear directly.

Offline Chakan

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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #11114 on: July 22, 2020, 09:29:00 pm »
HAHAHAHAHHAHAH

GO ON LAD!

Offline planet-terror

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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #11115 on: July 22, 2020, 09:29:14 pm »
Delighted for him. Get in son
bollocks

Offline Chris~

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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #11116 on: July 22, 2020, 09:29:27 pm »
A header full of confidence

Offline Samie

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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #11117 on: July 22, 2020, 09:29:37 pm »
BOB!

Offline Agent99

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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #11118 on: July 22, 2020, 09:30:31 pm »
20 passes for that. Fucking beautiful team goal.

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Re: Roberto Firmino
« Reply #11119 on: July 22, 2020, 09:30:49 pm »
A header full of confidence

So everyone stating that his confidence was the problem were correct.

Handy how that works for them... :D
Since haste quite Schorsch, but Liverpool are genuine fight pigs...