Topic: Labour Thread

[Byrnee]

If one person is derailing the thread with conspiracy theories without foundation then it is surely easier to suspend them from this thread than closing it when a lot of us want to discuss the party most closely aligned with our city. I hope that's the case.
For those in doubt - if you raise conspiracy theories of things you believe you absolutely do have to provide evidence.

I understand that for a lot of members of the party, they are disappointed in the change of direction of the party. They don't like the new leader, his personal politics, his actions around picket lines and foreign policy, his stance on NATO etc.

That was also true for the rest of us with the prior leader.

I think this thread is a good place to air those grievances and discuss any new rules and policies brought in. I hope this can be done respectfully mindful of the fact that we are all strongly opposed to the Tories remaining in power. If people disagree with you that doesn't make them right-wing, and if you're really proposing this I think you're too far gone to engage with.
 
Regarding the above accusations of plots and ploys and my namesake - if it is true as it seems that many members left after Corbyn was replaced -  and the remaining members in the West Derby CLP etc voted to begin the deselection process, then that is literally democracy in action. If you don't vote, you can't complain. You also can't leave a party and then demand it still follows your own political interests.  Also - it is ironic, no, that under the old rules it would have been easier to deselect Mr Byrne.

The Labour party is far more than Jeremy Corbyn. Or Keir Starmer. Whilst leaders are inevitably, intrinsically linked to the party it is important to look at the whole. We don't have a presidential system in this country and it's worth us discussing tactics up and down the land to oust the Tories.

Corbyn is done. Maybe a thread exclusively about him can be reopened and we call argue for and against him. I have certainly had plenty to say in the past myself. It is hard not to fall back into those disagreements. But there is a reason the Prime Minister has now used Corbyn's name as a deflection against Starmer 3 times in 3 PMQs. It fractures the opposition, it distracts from our united vision against the Tories. We have to be better than a clowder of cats being thrown a shiny toy.

Keir Starmer is the leader of the Labour party and will be when we face the next election in 2 years. The party has never polled so highly despite claims it would now die off as members left, and after a catastrophic showing in the last GE. This shit is important. Peoples lives are affected, this Thursday we're going to find out just how much. If you're not onboard with that may I gently suggest using your energy to fight against the Tories any way you can, you don't have to support Labour, but all this conspiracy and wishing for a new leader is a waste of everyone's time. Especially when, in here we could be sharing positive and constructive arguments about the party and how to get them elected.

Put another way, I doubt you'd be in the Premier League thread banging on about how it won't make any difference if Man City beat us to the title because we're all the same. Anyway. Fuck the Tories.

[Kenny's Jacket]

I don't think you've understood there Kenny.

You've merely cited the evidence (ie the fall in Labour membership since Starmer took over). We all agree that has happened. The "conspiracy" is the notion that these people have been secretly purged.

At the moment that is just an assertion based on gossip  ("I know someone who knows someone who knows someone who heard.... etc") What we're looking for is hard evidence that the whole thing - the purge - is being planned by Keir Starmer's office.

.
No,  Im not talking conspiracy, that's why I said to Andy, why are you talking about Conspiracy's

I was literally stating the fact that there was a change in membership numbers, given the rise under Corbyn and fall under Starmer its fair to assume that the membership has less lefties in it currently.

As I mentioned to Sir Howard, some will have left and some suspended.

I doubt anyone of us have the time or inclination to get the date on who has been suspended, but of course there will be some.

Let's wait to see if any MPs on the right of the party face deselection

[Wild Romany Boy]

Though the Ian Byrne saga is slightly separate for the general direction of the party, I hope he is reselected, he's overall a good man, albeit one who has said some horrible things that he has, hopefully, learnt from and certainly apologised for.

His potential replacement is a horrible figure. The stories of his behaviour were already legion by the time I left in late 2020. Having met him, he's also got a long way to go before he is anywhere near up to the job. I don't doubt he will be given the opportunities to make those improvements, but the Labour party can, and should, do a whole lot better. He was also, bar Luke Akehurst and H from Steps, the most unpleasant man I have ever encountered.

Never thought I'd write those names together.

[Byrnee]

No,  Im not talking conspiracy, that's why I said to Andy, why are you talking about Conspiracy's
 

Kenny - Andy was responding to Cali who said this -

No only that but when the vote happened loads of people didn’t get to vote who wanted to and who should have and guess what they were Ian supporters there’s some underhand tactics going on there atm and if you think non of it’s down to starmer ya know sun writing starmer you’ve got your head in the sand

(this was about the third random assortment of conspiracy nonsense that Cali had offered without any evidence whatsoever)

[Kenny's Jacket]

Kenny - Andy was responding to Cali who said this -

(this was about the third random assortment of conspiracy nonsense that Cali had offered without any evidence whatsoever)

Ahh I thought Andy was replying to Licyb about losing members

FFS. that means Yorkie was right 

[Byrnee]

Ahh I thought Andy was replying to Licyb about losing members

FFS. that means Yorkie was right 

Ha! 

[oldfordie]

I agree with this.

I think it's sad that you won't vote for anyone in the next election and I'd much prefer you to have a political party and a candidate you can really get behind - someone who totally represents your view. Hopefully those people in the Labour party who think the same as you do will soon get their act together and all resign from the Labour party en masse. What's the point after all - as you say yourself - of working for a party that is only slightly less "abhorrent" than the Tories. They should form their own political party, write their own policies, and stand candidates in a general election. 

The great thing is that they, and you, have a leader waiting on the sidelines who has done the job before. He knows the ropes. Corbyn was told this week that he would never be getting the Labour whip back and that Labour would field a candidate against him in Islington. Why not rally round him instead of just sulking on the sidelines? Resurrect his old policies and revive some of those he wasn't strong enough to insert into the Labour manifesto last time such as unilateral nuclear disarmament. Then the general public would have a genuine left-wing party to vote for instead of the discredited Labour party. We'd all be happy.

Going to be interesting to see if Corbyn actually stands, I was convinced he would just to make a point, he could win in Islington without the help of the Labour banner to influence voters. not so sure now as he will be placing many of his supporters in a position.
If Momentum campaign for Corbyn at the next election then they will be proscribed. any Labour member in Momentum will be booted out the party so it's crunch time for the left if Corbyn stands.
So Corbyn has to make a choice, stand for MP as a independent and tell Momentum to keep out of his campaign. stand and tell them it's time to walk away from the Labour party and form a new party. we have seen what happens when the SCG get threatened with losing the whip, they do what most MPs do and back down to keep the whip. the left may talk about breaking away but they will need to find new candidates to stand as IMO the SCG etc will not walk away from the safety of the Labour banner backing them. we shall see but I think Corbyn may well retire at the next GE or go for Mayor as he lives for politics, ive hedged my bets and backed him for Mayor.

[Yorkykopite]

This very childish behaviour is a huge reason that labour have struggled to sustain any meaningful representation in parliament.

Too many that can't accept anything but a pure bred, born down the pits, raised on bread and water only type socialists.

Ideology is a great thing to pin your colours to but it rarely wins you the power to make genuine change.

The supreme irony is that the poorest people have always been the hardest to convert to socialism. There were few votes for Labour in the slums. Nor were the "best" socialists found in the pits, the docks and the car factories. There, pragmatism reigned over ideology and bread and butter politics over the destruction of capitalism. It was probably only in the corners of the academy, among university and polytechnic undergraduates that you could find "real" socialism - and its twin sister, a blithe disregard for running things better than the Tories and making things a little bit better for the mass of people. Some "undergraduates" of course remain undergraduates for the rest of their lives. One of them even led the Labour party for a while.

[Yorkykopite]

what’s the labour party’s full title

Just that isn't it? Except with a capital L.

[Cali]

Does anyone think labour under starmer will have any form of democratic socialism which is supposed to be there ideology

[Cali]

Just that isn't it? Except with a capital L.

Sorry was thinking of there ideology but said full title I’m a little busy I’ve just had a baby so have baby brain lol

[rob1966]

Does anyone think labour under starmer will have any form of democratic socialism which is supposed to be there ideology

Right now I couldn't give a fuck, I want the Tories out by any means necessary before they totally fuck the country, then we can worry about what we want from the PM. Our kids have to grow up in this absolute shit stain of a country that these c*nts have created, they need taking out first and foremost.

[So… Howard Philips]

.
No,  Im not talking conspiracy, that's why I said to Andy, why are you talking about Conspiracy's

I was literally stating the fact that there was a change in membership numbers, given the rise under Corbyn and fall under Starmer its fair to assume that the membership has less lefties in it currently.

As I mentioned to Sir Howard, some will have left and some suspended.

I doubt anyone of us have the time or inclination to get the date on who has been suspended, but of course there will be some.

Let's wait to see if any MPs on the right of the party face deselection

At last! The recognition I deserve.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

At last! The recognition I deserve.

Congrats mate. Been a long time coming, but well deserved

[classycarra]

If one person is derailing the thread with conspiracy theories without foundation then it is surely easier to suspend them from this thread than closing it when a lot of us want to discuss the party most closely aligned with our city. I hope that's the case.
For those in doubt - if you raise conspiracy theories of things you believe you absolutely do have to provide evidence.

Aye, and on that note welcome back cali/cheesehead et al - hopefully fifth (or whichever) account lucky for you!

[ljycb]

People can claim conspiracy on the Byrne stuff if they want, but like I said in my post last night, a lot of what’s happening now is down to his supporters leaving the party in the wake of Starmer becoming leader.

It was clear from the outset that there would be a faction within the CLP who would look to work against Byrne, just like there was a different faction within the CLP who looked to work against his predecessor, Twigg. But Byrne either didn’t recognise that or thought that he could win people from all sides over by diplomacy and straightforward good work as an MP. It hasn’t worked out that way despite him doing a good job up to now.

Having said that, it’s not a foregone conclusion that he loses on Sunday - there are plenty of local members who don’t belong to any faction and only ever attend important meetings like the one coming up, and Byrne is popular in north Liverpool because of everything he does, whereas his opponent is not even that popular in his own ward.

[classycarra]

It would be a shame to lose a rare voice in parliament on Hillsborough (and unlike the leader he came in under, he's used his platform well; Corbyn, a supposed football supporter, has offered less than fuck all 33 years in parliament).

From what it sounds like though, this challenge to his position is a result of something he campaigned for as a Momentum supporter. Almost every year while they were prominent under JC's leadership, momentum wanted to introduce mandatory reselections. And it's largely a result of their endeavours to change internal party politics while they were at the steering wheel that this risk to his position has come about.

Would be a cruel irony for him, but also a stark reminder I suppose that in politics you should always consider the broader consequences of your actions and policies, and how they affect everyone, instead of just seeking to improve the lot of you and your allies in the short term.

Various sources for anyone unfamiliar:
https://www.ft.com/content/7d20afdc-af82-11e8-8d14-6f049d06439c
https://www.politicshome.com/news/article/momentum-hints-at-backing-for-mandatory-reselection-of-labour-mps
https://labourlist.org/2020/12/momentum-to-campaign-at-conference-for-elected-labour-general-secretary/

Does anyone think labour under starmer will have any form of democratic socialism which is supposed to be there ideology

Do you think things would be better in the country (and closer to home in your community) if there was a labour government elected next, or a tory government? 

Perspectives like yours do have me wondering if you and yours have had a much rosier 12 years of tory/coalition governments than I've had (likewise, my fellow public sector workers currently going through another round of job cuts)

[Nobby Reserve]

Urious as to where all those departed members went. For people who are wrapped up in politics you would assume they have found another party?

I ended my membership when Starmer told me he didn't want people like me as members.

I've not joined another party.

[Lusty]

Does anyone think labour under starmer will have any form of democratic socialism which is supposed to be there ideology

Here's some graphs on the difference between Labour and the Conservatives if you're having trouble figuring it out.  Now is not the time for a socialist revolution, we need to get these out now.

[ljycb]

From what it sounds like though, this challenge to his position is a result of something he campaigned for as a Momentum supporter. Almost every year while they were prominent under JC's leadership, momentum wanted to introduce mandatory reselections. And it's largely a result of their endeavours to change internal party politics while they were at the steering wheel that this risk to his position has come about.

Would be a cruel irony for him, but also a stark reminder I suppose that in politics you should always consider the broader consequences of your actions and policies, and how they affect everyone, instead of just seeking to improve the lot of you and your allies in the short term.

Various sources for anyone unfamiliar:
https://www.ft.com/content/7d20afdc-af82-11e8-8d14-6f049d06439c
https://www.politicshome.com/news/article/momentum-hints-at-backing-for-mandatory-reselection-of-labour-mps
https://labourlist.org/2020/12/momentum-to-campaign-at-conference-for-elected-labour-general-secretary/

The wider point you're making is one that I agree with, but I should point out for accuracy that Byrne himself is not a Momentum supporter. Whereas a lot of the left-wing Labour MPs who were selected under Corbyn were backed by Momentum, Byrne's selection was different in that the people behind his campaign were just local members and his main opponent for selection was the Momentum candidate.

[oldfordie]

Does anyone think labour under starmer will have any form of democratic socialism which is supposed to be there ideology

No chance, So what do you mean by a Democratic Socialist society. what is it's aim. it's policy's?

[Yorkykopite]

Here's some graphs on the difference between Labour and the Conservatives if you're having trouble figuring it out.  Now is not the time for a socialist revolution, we need to get these out now.

Nicely presented.

It's interesting that the highest investment in the NHS took place in the so-called "age of neoliberalism". It was a Labour Government under Tony Blair of course that invested so heavily in public health, but according to some left-wing critics Blair himself was meant to be "a neoliberal". I always understood 'neoliberalism' to be akin to the Victorian 'nightwatchman' state - a laissez faire sort of set up that reduces public spending to the absolute minimum and simply lets private enterprise run everything. Hence the term 'neo-liberalism'. But if your graphs are right more money was spent on the NHS under Blair than it was under Attlee and Wilson. And certainly more than under Gladstone and Disraeli.

[Yorkykopite]

This caught my eye from Cara's links above:

https://labourlist.org/2022/11/former-tory-mp-christian-wakeford-confirmed-as-labour-candidate/

It's not so much that a renegade Tory is now a Labour candidate, although I'm sure folk will have differing views on that. It was rather this bit from a disgruntled Momentum spokesperson:

A Momentum spokesperson described the decision to appoint Wakeford, who they highlighted has voted against workers’ rights and domestic abuse victims accessing benefits irrespective of immigration status, as a “democratic disgrace”.

“Meanwhile, Apsana Begum, the first hijabi-wearing MP, has seen the Party machine actively facilitate attempts to deselect her."

I thought it was odd that "hijabi-wearing" is seen as some kind of positive here - especially at a time when the hijab is being torn off by progressive Iranian women and burnt as a sign of misogyny and oppressive religious bigotry. Still, I suppose key elements of Momentum, and the Trotskyists more generally, have always sort of lined up with the mullahs and the theocrats.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Here's some graphs on the difference between Labour and the Conservatives if you're having trouble figuring it out.  Now is not the time for a socialist revolution, we need to get these out now.

Thanks for posting that. Really interesting stuff.

This is why hopefully this thread will avoid the ban hammer.

[stewil007]

Here's some graphs on the difference between Labour and the Conservatives if you're having trouble figuring it out.  Now is not the time for a socialist revolution, we need to get these out now.

do we have charts that go back further in time than those stated in the above?

I'm always interested in the full picture instead of specific start dates ie what was the debt in cash in the Major government/thatcher government.  Does it still hold up that Labour good/tory bad or are we cherry picking to suit our own narrative or agenda?

[Black Bull Nova]

Interesting that the chart suggests that no Brexit party members have right wing economic values

[thaddeus]

Here's some graphs on the difference between Labour and the Conservatives if you're having trouble figuring it out.  Now is not the time for a socialist revolution, we need to get these out now.
...

Very good illustration of why any Labour government is better than any Tory government.

The last chart is very interesting from a strategic perspective.  I appreciate it's not as scientific as the chart perhaps suggests but, taking it at face value, Labour's economic policies are them parking their tanks right in the middle of the Tory and Lib Dem lawns.  It's a risk to seemingly turn their backs on their own traditional voters but they've maybe made the calculation that there's no serious threat on the left.  It does exemplify why many posters on here aren't that keen on Starmer's Labour (but also why they're still so, so much better than the Tories).

Neither party is really in tune with their traditional voters on social values.

[classycarra]

The wider point you're making is one that I agree with, but I should point out for accuracy that Byrne himself is not a Momentum supporter. Whereas a lot of the left-wing Labour MPs who were selected under Corbyn were backed by Momentum, Byrne's selection was different in that the people behind his campaign were just local members and his main opponent for selection was the Momentum candidate.

Thank you mate, appreciate the good faith correction to my inaccurate claim.

I couldn't remember off the top of my head whether he was put up with Momentum's backing or not, and my googling saw his support for Momentum campaigns and putting on local events for/with them - and I put 2 and 2 together to get 5.

See now you prompted me to look more thoroughly that it was Angela Coleman that Momentum put up (as you said)

I suppose part of my original post can be salvaged, in terms of the Momentum candidate irony, for Apsana Begum's risk of reselection

[thaddeus]

Interesting that the chart suggests that no Brexit party members have right wing economic values

I assume there are a lot out outliers removed as otherwise every group of voters would fill pretty much the entire square.  The methodology used is also sure to have some flaws.  It's never-the-less interesting.

[Lusty]

do we have charts that go back further in time than those stated in the above?

I'm always interested in the full picture instead of specific start dates ie what was the debt in cash in the Major government/thatcher government.  Does it still hold up that Labour good/tory bad or are we cherry picking to suit our own narrative or agenda?

I will be honest, I typed 'Conservative versus Labour charts' into Google and cherry picked those to make a point about the difference between New Labour and this government.  I would not expect the economic charts to look good under Major though!  But you will have to do your own research on that one.

Nicely presented.

It's interesting that the highest investment in the NHS took place in the so-called "age of neoliberalism". It was a Labour Government under Tony Blair of course that invested so heavily in public health, but according to some left-wing critics Blair himself was meant to be "a neoliberal". I always understood 'neoliberalism' to be akin to the Victorian 'nightwatchman' state - a laissez faire sort of set up that reduces public spending to the absolute minimum and simply lets private enterprise run everything. Hence the term 'neo-liberalism'. But if your graphs are right more money was spent on the NHS under Blair than it was under Attlee and Wilson. And certainly more than under Gladstone and Disraeli.

I associate the term 'neo-liberalism' with Reagan/Thatcher etc.  Hayak instead of Keynes basically.  I don't think you can use the term to describe anything pre-war, it was not until the mid 20th century from what I remember that a group of people calling themselves neoliberals arose.  Blair was not a neoliberal based on my understanding of the term.

I think you can probably understand why it was lower under Attlee/Wilson?

Interesting that the chart suggests that no Brexit party members have right wing economic values

In terms of voters that's probably correct?  Not their politicians though!  Most of their voters come from Northern towns and bought into the levelling up agenda.

[stewil007]

I will be honest, I typed 'Conservative versus Labour charts' into Google and cherry picked those to make a point about the difference between New Labour and this government.  I would not expect the economic charts to look good under Major though!  But you will have to do your own research on that one.

So it would appear that the tories where no better/no worse prior to the 1997, can t imagine what they were thinking in 2008 tho....not much going off in that year

[Lusty]

Interesting.  Makes you wonder how this government has managed to combine such a high public debt with such low public spending!

[classycarra]

So it would appear that the tories where no better/no worse prior to the 1997, can t imagine what they were thinking in 2008 tho....not much going off in that year

Think there's some pretty vital context to add to a couple of the upward spikes in that graph. There's the recession in early 1990s and Black Wednesday in 1992 and the more obvious one is the global financial crisis of 2008

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Interesting that the chart suggests that no Brexit party members have right wing economic values

Very interesting. Might explain why so many 'left wing' people voted Brexit which caught everyone by surprise until you look at that graph.

The UK from that just doesn't seem to align with where the Tory Party has moved to and keeps moving to.

You would hope this would mean that the electorate would rein in this dickheads, but I fear the damage is already done and already irreversable.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Interesting.  Makes you wonder how this government has managed to combine such a high public debt with such low public spending!

Well to be fair, there was the global economic collapse, Brexit and COVID.

[Cali]

I ended my membership when Starmer told me he didn't want people like me as members.

I've not joined another party.

Same mate I’m politically homeless

[Cali]

Right now I couldn't give a fuck, I want the Tories out by any means necessary before they totally fuck the country, then we can worry about what we want from the PM. Our kids have to grow up in this absolute shit stain of a country that these c*nts have created, they need taking out first and foremost.

I’d love to get them out too mate but not just for a watered down version of the Tory party and with a liar in charge who’s a part of the establishment he’ll do nothing to leave a lasting legacy for us working class

[Robinred]

Just like to belatedly add my congratulations to Howard on his peerage.

Long overdue. Who next?

[Machae]

Well to be fair, there was the global economic collapse, Brexit and COVID.

Contracts for their mates

[Cali]

It would be a shame to lose a rare voice in parliament on Hillsborough (and unlike the leader he came in under, he's used his platform well; Corbyn, a supposed football supporter, has offered less than fuck all 33 years in parliament).

From what it sounds like though, this challenge to his position is a result of something he campaigned for as a Momentum supporter. Almost every year while they were prominent under JC's leadership, momentum wanted to introduce mandatory reselections. And it's largely a result of their endeavours to change internal party politics while they were at the steering wheel that this risk to his position has come about.

Would be a cruel irony for him, but also a stark reminder I suppose that in politics you should always consider the broader consequences of your actions and policies, and how they affect everyone, instead of just seeking to improve the lot of you and your allies in the short term.

Various sources for anyone unfamiliar:
https://www.ft.com/content/7d20afdc-af82-11e8-8d14-6f049d06439c
https://www.politicshome.com/news/article/momentum-hints-at-backing-for-mandatory-reselection-of-labour-mps
https://labourlist.org/2020/12/momentum-to-campaign-at-conference-for-elected-labour-general-secretary/
Do you think things would be better in the country (and closer to home in your community) if there was a labour government elected next, or a tory government? 

Perspectives like yours do have me wondering if you and yours have had a much rosier 12 years of tory/coalition governments than I've had (likewise, my fellow public sector workers currently going through another round of job cuts)

Exactly he’s a good man Ian is and the man they they want to put in his place lavelle is a piece of work and to be honest my salary has increased a lot over the past 12 years that’s nothing to do with tories tho but just my experience and what I’ve put into work but now even tho I earn decent enough money I’ve had to take a second job as an Amazon delivery driver so no things under the tories aren’t working for me