Author Topic: Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power (Amazon TV series - September 2022)  (Read 40891 times)

Offline Rob Dylan

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Re: Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power (Amazon TV series - September 2022)
« Reply #440 on: September 21, 2022, 08:06:02 pm »
Not to accuse anyone of anything, but it does seem like male characters are allowed to be serious, intense and angry most of the time, but female characters who are like that get described as petulant, bratty or unlikeable. Doesn't mean those male characters aren't ever criticised for other things, or those female characters should never be criticised, but there do seem to be different standards applied. Why is it that people reach for these terms and this kind of patronising language, when they wouldn't do the same with a male character?

Anyway, to get back to the discussion we were having earlier: why is there not scope for the personalities of elves to change and evolve over their lifespan? As I said this series is thousands of years before the LOTR trilogy, it would be a bit weird (and boring) if their personalities and roles were just set in stone forever.

Offline Lastrador

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Re: Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power (Amazon TV series - September 2022)
« Reply #441 on: September 21, 2022, 09:39:19 pm »
Not to accuse anyone of anything, but it does seem like male characters are allowed to be serious, intense and angry most of the time, but female characters who are like that get described as petulant, bratty or unlikeable. Doesn't mean those male characters aren't ever criticised for other things, or those female characters should never be criticised, but there do seem to be different standards applied. Why is it that people reach for these terms and this kind of patronising language, when they wouldn't do the same with a male character?

Anyway, to get back to the discussion we were having earlier: why is there not scope for the personalities of elves to change and evolve over their lifespan? As I said this series is thousands of years before the LOTR trilogy, it would be a bit weird (and boring) if their personalities and roles were just set in stone forever.
I can only speak for myself, but I never care for characters that I find one-note. Be that female, male or whatever. The reason I dislike this interpretation of Galadriel is that I don't find any depth in her personality. A character can be driven, serious and intense, but if that's all they ever show, it doesn't make for compelling viewing. It also seems inauthentic for an Elf to act the way she does. She acts like a young immature human, not like an immortal being that's been around the earth for thousands of years. You can rationalize it any way you want, but if the only way you can of showing character growth is to have her being such a one-note entitled brat in the beginning so that she can grow out of it later on, then that's just amateurish writing in my book.

I don't think that's just my personal interpretation btw, she's clearly been written that way. The actress playing her has talked about it, even the showrunners openly mock her. That's why they play her "I have a tempest in me..." speech in the last episode as a joke, immediately cutting to a shot of her behind bars when she finishes. One could ask how the guards of Numenor were able to put her there in the first place, when she so easily overpowered them later on, but basic things like consistency and logic don't seem to apply here.

The reason I singled out her character for criticism, and I agree she's not the worst or less interesting in the show (although that's more indicative of the quality of the show than anything else), it's because I thought she was one of the characters with the most potential earlier on. As I said, I really like her interpretation in the movies, and the actress playing her. I thought they had a good solid foundation, but the writing is just not doing her character (or the actress for that matter) any justice. I agree it wouldn't make sense for her to be exactly the way she was in the LotR, but having her so far removed from anything close to what you would expect, it's just a cheap screenwriting trick to make her look good later on. It's the same trick they use when they make everyone around the main characters incompetent, just so that heroes shine even brighter. The movies had some of the same problems and were my least favourite part of them.

Btw, I wasn't expecting Soprano's level of writing on this show, but I find it so generic, lifeless and uninspired, that I wouldn't be surprised if it was written by a scriptwriting algorithm and Jeff Bezos only hired those two chumps so that they can be the fall guys if things go to shit, like D&D for GoT. Only way I can understand how they hired those two for a billion dollar investment. It was certainly not because of their talent or experience.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2022, 09:53:51 pm by Lastrador »

Offline Ravishing Rick Dude

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Re: Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power (Amazon TV series - September 2022)
« Reply #442 on: September 21, 2022, 09:40:04 pm »
Not to accuse anyone of anything, but it does seem like male characters are allowed to be serious, intense and angry most of the time, but female characters who are like that get described as petulant, bratty or unlikeable. Doesn't mean those male characters aren't ever criticised for other things, or those female characters should never be criticised, but there do seem to be different standards applied. Why is it that people reach for these terms and this kind of patronising language, when they wouldn't do the same with a male character?

Anyway, to get back to the discussion we were having earlier: why is there not scope for the personalities of elves to change and evolve over their lifespan? As I said this series is thousands of years before the LOTR trilogy, it would be a bit weird (and boring) if their personalities and roles were just set in stone forever.

In elves years, she's still a teen i believe.
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Offline Rob Dylan

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Re: Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power (Amazon TV series - September 2022)
« Reply #443 on: September 21, 2022, 10:11:57 pm »
I can only speak for myself, but I never care for characters that I find one-note. Be that female, male or whatever. The reason I dislike this interpretation of Galadriel is that I don't find any depth in her personality. A character can be driven, serious and intense, but if that's all they ever show, it doesn't make for compelling viewing. It also seems inauthentic for an Elf to act the way she does. She acts like a young immature human, not like an immortal being that's been around the earth for thousands of years. You can rationalize it any way you want, but if the only way you can of showing character growth is to have her being such a one-note entitled brat in the beginning so that she can grow out of it later on, then that's just amateurish writing in my book.

I don't think that's just my personal interpretation btw, she's clearly been written that way. The actress playing her has talked about it, even the showrunners openly mock her. That's why they play her "I have a tempest in me..." speech in the last episode as a joke, immediately cutting to a shot of her behind bars when she finishes. One could ask how the guards of Numenor were able to put her there in the first place, when she so easily overpowered them later on, but things like consistency and logic don't seem to apply to this show. I wasn't expecting Soprano's level of writing on this, but I find it so generic, lifeless and uninspired, that I wouldn't be surprised if it was made by a scriptwriting algorithm and Jeff Bezos only hired those two chumps so that they can be the fall guys if things go to shit, like D&D for GoT.

But again, you're using phrases like "one-note entitled brat" when that isn't what the character's like at all. She's single-minded, she's vengeful, but where is the 'entitled' and 'brat' part? I'm just not getting that at all.

Secondly, that isn't all they've shown of her character - they've shown her close relationship with her brother, her friendship with Elrond, and her respect for and collaboration with Elendil, for example. You're just choosing to ignore those things because they don't fit your narrative. Much like the obvious reason why she allowed herself to be put behind bars - she wasn't about to start fighting the guards or trying to take down the Queen when she still hopes to win their support. It's not bad writing, it's just you not understanding basic stuff about the story - or choosing to ignore it because it doesn't fit your narrative. And saying this is the showrunners 'openly mocking her' is just bizarre. Have you not seen movies or shows before where this kind of thing happens? It's hardly unusual.

As for her behaviour being 'immature' - again, I just don't get it. She's determined to avenge her brother, convinced that Sauron is still out there, and frustrated that people are complacent about it - how is any of that immature? I just don't see where you're getting that from. And anyway, Tolkien's writings are full of elves being proud, vengeful, greedy, violent, cruel etc...they're not perfect emotionless beings, and they'd be very boring if they were.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2022, 10:44:11 pm by Rob Dylan »

Offline leinad

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Re: Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power (Amazon TV series - September 2022)
« Reply #444 on: September 21, 2022, 10:26:31 pm »
Not to accuse anyone of anything, but it does seem like male characters are allowed to be serious, intense and angry most of the time, but female characters who are like that get described as petulant, bratty or unlikeable. Doesn't mean those male characters aren't ever criticised for other things, or those female characters should never be criticised, but there do seem to be different standards applied. Why is it that people reach for these terms and this kind of patronising language, when they wouldn't do the same with a male character?

From my experience I have seen plenty of male characters with the characteristics you describe who get criticised and called bratty, arrogant, unlikable, pompous etc, I wouldn't say it's strictly reserved for female characters. I find it rather snide that people get insinuations made about them being a misogynist for not liking a character, surely if you find their viewpoint about the character so wrong you can express that without labelling people as sexist.

Offline redwillow

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Re: Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power (Amazon TV series - September 2022)
« Reply #445 on: September 21, 2022, 10:41:01 pm »
Diverging with a quick few questions after watching the hobbit trilogy again.

How long after Rings of Power is the war that opens fellowship of the ring?

How long after that war, is the hobbit films?

How long after the hobbit films is the LOTR trilogy?

Offline EastTyroneRed

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Re: Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power (Amazon TV series - September 2022)
« Reply #446 on: September 21, 2022, 10:53:20 pm »
In elves years, she's still a teen i believe.

No, elves are fully developed by about 100. Galadriel is already thousands of years old by this stage, much older than Celebrimbor and Elrond.

There is no reason for them to write her this way.

Offline EastTyroneRed

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Re: Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power (Amazon TV series - September 2022)
« Reply #447 on: September 21, 2022, 10:58:51 pm »
You focus on the wrong things though.

Who cares about wearing a skirt?

But let's nail this down this is where you went wrong and need to change IMO

I disagree there are any and you're not going to solve them.

It's a TV show so I think if there's genuine issues like this (I for one don't know what you're talking about) they belong elsewhere - we have places here to discuss politics

Politics in this? No thank you

And if you disagree with that take, I can live with that, but I think it ruins the thread

And this discussion is proof, no?

If you feel you need to discuss political and gender issues about a show - you're always going to run up against people who watch shows to ESCAPE that.

I don't agree these issues exist and I for one would rather talk about other issues
- there's loads to talk about with this show!

Don't care what agendas others see in a TV show. It's hardly Panorama. It is fiction

Not even the fact that they've made the Numenorian beef with the eldar about immigrants taking jobs?? Do you really not see it??
It should have been about the Numenorians being jealous of the eldar like the source material describes. But sure why pass up the opportunity to shoehorn modern political messages into a fantasy show.  :butt

Offline EastTyroneRed

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Re: Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power (Amazon TV series - September 2022)
« Reply #448 on: September 21, 2022, 11:04:14 pm »
Diverging with a quick few questions after watching the hobbit trilogy again.

How long after Rings of Power is the war that opens fellowship of the ring?

How long after that war, is the hobbit films?

How long after the hobbit films is the LOTR trilogy?

1. It's hard to state a time, because this show uses events from the start, middle and end of the second age and puts them into the one narrative. (The rings were forged thousands of years before Muriel , Al-Pharazon etc. were ever born.)

2. About 2940 years.

3. About 80 years.

Offline wampa1

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Re: Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power (Amazon TV series - September 2022)
« Reply #449 on: September 21, 2022, 11:14:41 pm »
Not even the fact that they've made the Numenorian beef with the eldar about immigrants taking jobs?? Do you really not see it??
It should have been about the Numenorians being jealous of the eldar like the source material describes. But sure why pass up the opportunity to shoehorn modern political messages into a fantasy show.  :butt
No, they made that one guy's beef about stealing jobs when the Halbrand, y'know, literally tried to steal his job.

But LOTR has always been full of political messages. Or did you miss all the bits about industrialisation and destruction of the natural world? The racism? Facism? Slavery?

I swear whenever anyone says stuff like Doctor Who/Star Trek/Star Wars/LOTR etc is now 'too political' it just tells me how unobservant those people were when growing up watching that stuff.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2022, 11:28:03 pm by wampa1 »

Offline Rob Dylan

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Re: Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power (Amazon TV series - September 2022)
« Reply #450 on: September 21, 2022, 11:16:01 pm »
Not even the fact that they've made the Numenorian beef with the eldar about immigrants taking jobs?? Do you really not see it??
It should have been about the Numenorians being jealous of the eldar like the source material describes. But sure why pass up the opportunity to shoehorn modern political messages into a fantasy show.  :butt

Again, this is either misunderstanding what's actually in the show, or deliberately ignoring it because you want to complain about 'modern political messages'. The line about taking their jobs was just one low-level person's opinion at that moment, it's been clearly explained that the Numenorians started distancing themselves from the elves way before that, it's the whole reason why their King isn't ruling them anymore. And anyway, it looked like he was working with Pharazon, getting the crowd riled up with grievances they could relate to, so Pharazon could come in and calm them down, while showing that he's on their side. He's obviously manoeuvring to try and take over eventually.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2022, 12:14:38 am by Rob Dylan »

Offline wampa1

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Re: Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power (Amazon TV series - September 2022)
« Reply #451 on: September 21, 2022, 11:16:10 pm »
No, elves are fully developed by about 100. Galadriel is already thousands of years old by this stage, much older than Celebrimbor and Elrond.

There is no reason for them to write her this way.
Yes there is. If you're character is fully developed and perfect from the off where do you go?

Offline wampa1

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Re: Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power (Amazon TV series - September 2022)
« Reply #452 on: September 21, 2022, 11:22:06 pm »
Not to accuse anyone of anything, but it does seem like male characters are allowed to be serious, intense and angry most of the time, but female characters who are like that get described as petulant, bratty or unlikeable. Doesn't mean those male characters aren't ever criticised for other things, or those female characters should never be criticised, but there do seem to be different standards applied. Why is it that people reach for these terms and this kind of patronising language, when they wouldn't do the same with a male character?
It's *always* the female characters the feel the brunt of the criticism. I don't remember anyone complaining about Elijah Wood's Frodo or Hugo Weaving's Elrond back in the day despite them being fairly obviously miscast (Elrond in the books is described as 'as kind of summer' which is the last thing you'd say about Hugo Weaving's Elrond). I do, however, remember the shit that Liv Tyler and Miranda Otto got for having the temerity to do anything other than stand there and look pretty.

Offline Rob Dylan

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Re: Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power (Amazon TV series - September 2022)
« Reply #453 on: September 21, 2022, 11:22:52 pm »
No, elves are fully developed by about 100. Galadriel is already thousands of years old by this stage, much older than Celebrimbor and Elrond.

There is no reason for them to write her this way.

So if they're all fully matured by the age of 100 and they're all basically the same at that point, it's pretty irrelevant that she's older than them - hundreds, even thousands of years make no difference apparently, as they all just stay the same forever?

Just because she's older, it doesn't mean she has exactly the same personality, has had exactly the same experiences, and is immune to feeling emotions. As I said, there's plenty of examples of elves being vengeful and proud and greedy and showing many kinds of negative traits. Why do people think they are all perfect and angelic and immune to emotions?
« Last Edit: September 21, 2022, 11:29:42 pm by Rob Dylan »

Offline Lastrador

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Re: Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power (Amazon TV series - September 2022)
« Reply #454 on: September 22, 2022, 12:22:18 am »
But again, you're using phrases like "one-note entitled brat" when that isn't what she's like at all. She's single-minded, she's vengeful, but where is the 'entitled' and 'brat' part? I'm just not getting that at all.

Secondly, that isn't all they've shown of her character - they've shown her close relationship with her brother, her warm friendship with Elrond, and her respect for and collaboration with Elendil, for example. You're just choosing to ignore those things because they don't fit your narrative. Much like the obvious reason why she allowed herself to be put behind bars - she wasn't about to start fighting the guards or trying to take down the Queen when she still hopes to win their support. It's not bad writing, it's just you not understanding basic stuff about the story - or choosing to ignore it because it doesn't fit your narrative. And saying this is the showrunners 'openly mocking her' is just bizarre. Have you not seen movies or shows before where this kind of thing happens? It's hardly unusual.

As for her behaviour being 'immature' - again, I just don't get it. She's determined to avenge her brother, convinced that Sauron is still out there, and frustrated that people are complacent about it - how is any of that immature? I just don't see where you're getting that from. And anyway, Tolkien's writings are full of elves being vengeful, greedy, violent, cruel etc...they're not perfect emotionless beings, and they'd be very boring if they were.

You know, I was going to write a response in good faith and try to gently explain my points, but then I read that and realised you're not worth it, and it will probably fly over your head anyway, so what's the point? I never once called you, or anybody in here, stupid for liking the show, which is what you're implying I am by this. I do understand the story and where it's going, it's so basic and predictable that it would be hard not to. Just because it's easy to follow, it doesn't make it any good or make any sense. Although you obviously think otherwise. More power to you and your simple tastes. Let's try to analyse the scene in question then:

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/CDxNoswNY-w" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/CDxNoswNY-w</a>

So, you're saying that after openly demeaning the queen's authority, and basically threatening her, she was still coldly calculating how to win their support? Notorious hothead Galadriel, in ire? That's why she let herself be prisoned, again? That's one tremendous way to spin it. Probably she was just, you know, overpowered by the guards, which would make sense as she's unarmed, and isn't (to my knowledge) a superhero. That scene is a good example of the entitled brattiness in question, although you probably think she was just a bit forceful.

And yes, unfortunately, I have seen those types of hats cuts played for laughs like that. It's a stupid modern trope, usually found in Marvel movies and the like, to lighten up the mooooood. I might be mistaken but you come across as someone who probably devours that kind of brainless entertainment. Maybe you should try to watch something a little smarter for once, a little more challenging, maybe you will find lazy and formulaic writing a little less pleasing then, and the world will be a better place.

Secondly, that isn't all they've shown of her character - they've shown her close relationship with her brother, her warm friendship with Elrond, and her respect for and collaboration with Elendil, for example. You're just choosing to ignore those things because they don't fit your narrative.

You named three interactions in over 4 hours of TV, where she's probably the character with more screen time on the entire show. And I would hardly say her last interaction with Elrond showed a "warm friendship". She basically scolds him the entire time. But ok, she's an entitled brat for 85% of the time. Does that make sense to you now? Do you always take things so literally? No wonder you like the show.

I'm not going to go and find clips of the show that shows Galadriel acting like an entitled brat. Just rewatch every scene of her with Numenor's queen, or how she treated her elves companions in the begging, or some of her interactions with Elrond, and the countless others where she acts exactly like that. She's constantly lecturing and demanding from everyone, no matter if she's a queen or a sailor, to do as she says with not an ounce of humility or diplomacy, like *drumrolls... an entitled brat. And why exactly should everyone listen to her? Because she has a gut feeling and has spent 2000 years unsuccessfully searching for Sauron? Oh, she found a mark in a cave somewhere. Yes, of course, like an audience we know she's right, but that doesn't make her demands any more realistic or compelling.

Tolkien's writings are full of elves being proud, vengeful, greedy, violent, cruel etc...they're not perfect emotionless beings, and they'd be very boring if they were.
Where did I say I want her to be a perfect emotionless being? Talk about pulling narratives out of your ass. I even said that I liked her interpretation of the movie because of her conflicting features. That she was both scary and alluring, that you couldn't get a grasp on her. Show Galadriel doesn't have any conflicting features, she hardly has any features at all. Obviously, they couldn't make her as idyllic and mysterious as in the movies, as it would be really hard to relate to her. They had to make her more grounded, yes, but that doesn't mean she would have to lose all elfish allure. If it wasn't for the ears, hair, and occasional shows of superhuman strength, when the plot demands it, you wouldn't even think of her as an elf. The lack of emotional depth and her being so plain is what makes her so incredibly boring to me.

This conversation was as rewarding as talking to a wall, but I doubt I will come back any time soon. So, cheers.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2022, 05:27:40 am by Lastrador »

Offline EastTyroneRed

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Re: Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power (Amazon TV series - September 2022)
« Reply #455 on: September 22, 2022, 06:35:23 am »
It's *always* the female characters the feel the brunt of the criticism. I don't remember anyone complaining about Elijah Wood's Frodo or Hugo Weaving's Elrond back in the day despite them being fairly obviously miscast (Elrond in the books is described as 'as kind of summer' which is the last thing you'd say about Hugo Weaving's Elrond). I do, however, remember the shit that Liv Tyler and Miranda Otto got for having the temerity to do anything other than stand there and look pretty.

I disagree. Elrond and Celebrimbor have got lots of grief about the acting in this show. And they are both male.

Offline EastTyroneRed

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Re: Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power (Amazon TV series - September 2022)
« Reply #456 on: September 22, 2022, 06:42:39 am »
No, they made that one guy's beef about stealing jobs when the Halbrand, y'know, literally tried to steal his job.

But LOTR has always been full of political messages. Or did you miss all the bits about industrialisation and destruction of the natural world? The racism? Facism? Slavery?

I swear whenever anyone says stuff like Doctor Who/Star Trek/Star Wars/LOTR etc is now 'too political' it just tells me how unobservant those people were when growing up watching that stuff.

Tolkien can put whatever message he wants into his story. He wrote the lore.
It's when a company like Amazon tries to use a tale based on the roman empire, celtic, nordic mythology to shoehorn 2022 messages in it people will obviously roll their eyes. What was the reason for this? Its supposed to be an adaptation.
I honestly think some people don't give a damn about what Tolkien wrote.

I see the ratings and viewing figures are starting to reflect that.

Offline ChrisOH

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Re: Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power (Amazon TV series - September 2022)
« Reply #457 on: September 22, 2022, 08:20:59 am »
Character development for an already 6000 year old Elvin leader that's already supposed to be wise over the course of, what, a few months or so? OK.

Go and read the books? OK.
Ye wha la.

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Re: Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power (Amazon TV series - September 2022)
« Reply #458 on: September 22, 2022, 09:14:00 am »

There is no reason for them to write her this way.

I mean, there is, if you have any understanding of how story telling works.

Offline EastTyroneRed

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Re: Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power (Amazon TV series - September 2022)
« Reply #459 on: September 22, 2022, 09:21:03 am »
I mean, there is, if you have any understanding of how story telling works.

If you have any understanding of Tolkien, the lore or the source material you would know there is not. Another person who hasn't read the books in guessing.

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Re: Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power (Amazon TV series - September 2022)
« Reply #460 on: September 22, 2022, 09:25:13 am »
I'm enjoying the show. Definitely has the feel of a slow burn, but the world is such an amazing place it's great to sit back and soak it in.

I liked Peter Jackson's Galadriel but not sure how she would work in a show like this. Given that she's younger and has been deeply focused on this war for such a long time, I can see why she is the way she is, and why her determination might impair her judgement in more political situations like in Numenor.

Offline Red Viper

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Re: Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power (Amazon TV series - September 2022)
« Reply #461 on: September 22, 2022, 09:45:20 am »
If you have any understanding of Tolkien, the lore or the source material you would know there is not. Another person who hasn't read the books in guessing.

I don't care about the books. This isn't the fucking books. It's an adaptation and to make things work on TV or on film, inevitably things have to be changed. Jackson's trilogy changes loads from the books.

Having a fully formed Galadriel who is basically the same as she is in the trilogy doesn't make for compelling TV. If you want a TV show/film to work usually the main protagonist has to go on some sort of journey, there has to be personal growth. This is a five series arc we're just at the start of ffs.

Offline Rob Dylan

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Re: Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power (Amazon TV series - September 2022)
« Reply #462 on: September 22, 2022, 09:49:44 am »
You know, I was going to write a response in good faith and try to gently explain my points, but then I read that and realised you're not worth it, and it will probably fly over your head anyway, so what's the point? I never once called you, or anybody in here, stupid for liking the show, which is what you're implying I am by this. I do understand the story and where it's going, it's so basic and predictable that it would be hard not to. Just because it's easy to follow, it doesn't make it any good or make any sense. Although you obviously think otherwise. More power to you and your simple tastes. Let's try to analyse the scene in question then:

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/CDxNoswNY-w" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/CDxNoswNY-w</a>

So, you're saying that after openly demeaning the queen's authority, and basically threatening her, she was still coldly calculating how to win their support? Notorious hothead Galadriel, in ire? That's why she let herself be prisoned, again? That's one tremendous way to spin it. Probably she was just, you know, overpowered by the guards, which would make sense as she's unarmed, and isn't (to my knowledge) a superhero. That scene is a good example of the entitled brattiness in question, although you probably think she was just a bit forceful.

And yes, unfortunately, I have seen those types of hats cuts played for laughs like that. It's a stupid modern trope, usually found in Marvel movies and the like, to lighten up the mooooood. I might be mistaken but you come across as someone who probably devours that kind of brainless entertainment. Maybe you should try to watch something a little smarter for once, a little more challenging, maybe you will find lazy and formulaic writing a little less pleasing then, and the world will be a better place.

You named three interactions in over 4 hours of TV, where she's probably the character with more screen time on the entire show. And I would hardly say her last interaction with Elrond showed a "warm friendship". She basically scolds him the entire time. But ok, she's an entitled brat for 85% of the time. Does that make sense to you now? Do you always take things so literally? No wonder you like the show.

I'm not going to go and find clips of the show that shows Galadriel acting like an entitled brat. Just rewatch every scene of her with Numenor's queen, or how she treated her elves companions in the begging, or some of her interactions with Elrond, and the countless others where she acts exactly like that. She's constantly lecturing and demanding from everyone, no matter if she's a queen or a sailor, to do as she says with not an ounce of humility or diplomacy, like *drumrolls... an entitled brat. And why exactly should everyone listen to her? Because she has a gut feeling and has spent 2000 years unsuccessfully searching for Sauron? Oh, she found a mark in a cave somewhere. Yes, of course, like an audience we know she's right, but that doesn't make her demands any more realistic or compelling.

Where did I say I want her to be a perfect emotionless being? Talk about pulling narratives out of your ass. I even said that I liked her interpretation of the movie because of her conflicting features. That she was both scary and alluring, that you couldn't get a grasp on her. Show Galadriel doesn't have any conflicting features, she hardly has any features at all. Obviously, they couldn't make her as idyllic and mysterious as in the movies, as it would be really hard to relate to her. They had to make her more grounded, yes, but that doesn't mean she would have to lose all elfish allure. If it wasn't for the ears, hair, and occasional shows of superhuman strength, when the plot demands it, you wouldn't even think of her as an elf. The lack of emotional depth and her being so plain is what makes her so incredibly boring to me.

This conversation was as rewarding as talking to a wall, but I doubt I will come back any time soon. So, cheers.

Oh my God could you be any more patronising or up your own arse? I suppose we should be grateful that you're lowering yourself to engage with someone who *shudder* probably likes Marvel movies. But despite your imagined superiority, you're still making the same flawed arguments and conveniently avoiding the points I'm making against them.

In that scene, yes, if she'd tried to resist she would've been overwhelmed by the guards as more would've appeared, but also it would've made no sense because to try and violently resist at that point would've ruined any chance of getting the support of the Numenoreans. But later when she's told she's about to be deported right away, she has no choice but to try and escape - and it's obviously easier as there's only like three guards to deal with. You complain about the character being one-dimensional, yet you also complain when she shows two different characteristics within the same scene - at first headstrong, then more cautious as she realises she won't get anywhere by resisting at that point. You can't have it both ways. And again you're deliberately misinterpreting what's happening in the scene - she doesn't 'threaten' the Queen personally, she threatens to go over her head, which is a different thing. And that type of cut might be well-worn trope, but it's not an example of the writers 'openly mocking her' as you tried to say.

And again, being headstrong and determined does not make her an 'entitled brat', unless you just don't understand what the word 'brat' means. She driven by vengeance and she knows she's right, and if she thinks she's entitled to some respect - well she is, because of who she is. Also it's hardly uncommon in this world for elves to see themselves as superior to men is it?

You previously said she was a 'one-note' character, which literally means that she only demonstrates one characteristic. So when I give you examples of three other different characteristics, you say those don't count, for some reason - because they don't fit in with the simplistic argument you're trying to make. For example, you ignore the affection she shows Elrond and just say 'she scolds him the whole time' - you're just choosing to ignore things that don't fit in with your narrative. You said it was 'immature' for an elf to behave this way - headstrong, single-minded, even arrogant - yet there are plenty of other examples of elves behaving in similar ways, that could be described as 'immature'. As for the comparison to Peter Jackson's interpretation, you may have liked it but it doesn't really match what's in the book (she doesn't lose control or turn into something out of a horror movie), and it doesn't make sense in the story as she's dealing with people who are vulnerable and on a very important mission, one which she supports. You said yourself that they had to make her more grounded in this series, but your main concern for this female lead character seems to be that she should be 'alluring'. OK then.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2022, 03:42:58 pm by Rob Dylan »

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Re: Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power (Amazon TV series - September 2022)
« Reply #463 on: September 22, 2022, 09:55:56 am »
I don't care about the books. This isn't the fucking books. It's an adaptation and to make things work on TV or on film, inevitably things have to be changed. Jackson's trilogy changes loads from the books.

Having a fully formed Galadriel who is basically the same as she is in the trilogy doesn't make for compelling TV. If you want a TV show/film to work usually the main protagonist has to go on some sort of journey, there has to be personal growth. This is a five series arc we're just at the start of ffs.

Also there isn't actually an established 'story' for this period in time like there was for the main LOTR trilogy. There's no existing 'main character' or established narrative to work with. They're working off limited information, pretty much just a list of events which happened over a few thousand years. Inevitably they've have had to fill in gaps, invent characters and cut things out and compress the timeline to make it work.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2022, 10:00:14 am by Rob Dylan »

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Re: Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power (Amazon TV series - September 2022)
« Reply #464 on: September 22, 2022, 10:14:49 am »
I don't care about the books. This isn't the fucking books. It's an adaptation and to make things work on TV or on film, inevitably things have to be changed. Jackson's trilogy changes loads from the books.

Having a fully formed Galadriel who is basically the same as she is in the trilogy doesn't make for compelling TV. If you want a TV show/film to work usually the main protagonist has to go on some sort of journey, there has to be personal growth. This is a five series arc we're just at the start of ffs.

I think this just sums it up.

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Re: Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power (Amazon TV series - September 2022)
« Reply #465 on: September 22, 2022, 10:30:03 am »
Put all lore debates aside and it's still an objectively terrible show. It's badly written, relies heavily on mysteries which are dull and predictable (Mithril being a prime example). The main protagonist is absolutely insufferable too.
I actually liked the first episode, especially the prologue, but it's been so unbelievably boring since. We are halfway through the season and nothing has happened.

Plot holes that make no sense:

Why does arondir get attacked in the woods by Adars lads if he was released to go deliver a message?

Why does lenny Henry say "nobody gets left behind" over and over and over then as soon as the da who gets a fractured ankle helping the community get left behind to die?

Why did nobody in the village think to bring more than a few spuds for the trip?

Why was arondir given all his weapons back when he was set free?

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Re: Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power (Amazon TV series - September 2022)
« Reply #466 on: September 22, 2022, 10:44:02 am »
Plot holes that make no sense:

I'm not into this tedious argument that's been polluting the thread, but I'll have a crack at some of these.

Quote
Why does arondir get attacked in the woods by Adars lads if he was released to go deliver a message?
They were after the item the kid is holding, either the orcs attacking him didn't know Arondir was off limits or they felt getting that talisman back was more important. Or they're dumb as fuck orcs who choose violence whenever possible.

Quote
Why does lenny Henry say "nobody gets left behind" over and over and over then as soon as the da who gets a fractured ankle helping the community get left behind to die?

Because they're a small, insular community, rife with hypocrisy and focused solely on their own survival.

Quote
Why did nobody in the village think to bring more than a few spuds for the trip?

They had no idea when the orcs would attack, they left at first light IIRC to allow them time to travel during daylight when the orc threat is lower. Presumably they didn't have enough time/equipment to load up everything they had.

Quote
Why was arondir given all his weapons back when he was set free?

If he's being sent to send a message, through territory that is controlled by orcs that likely have no idea he was set free, giving him his weapons seems like it might be a good idea. Adar killed a wounded orc himself, I doubt he gives a fuck if a couple more die to ensure his message arrives safely.

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Re: Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power (Amazon TV series - September 2022)
« Reply #467 on: September 22, 2022, 10:57:23 am »
I really don't understand why some people are doing backflips to justify bad writing.
I get that you don't want to be seen on the "same side" as 12 year old racist Internet trolls but come on. You can't tell me you think the writing on the show is good?

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Re: Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power (Amazon TV series - September 2022)
« Reply #468 on: September 22, 2022, 11:35:18 am »
Put all lore debates aside and it's still an objectively terrible show. It's badly written, relies heavily on mysteries which are dull and predictable (Mithril being a prime example). The main protagonist is absolutely insufferable too.
I actually liked the first episode, especially the prologue, but it's been so unbelievably boring since. We are halfway through the season and nothing has happened.

Plot holes that make no sense:

Why does arondir get attacked in the woods by Adars lads if he was released to go deliver a message?

Why does lenny Henry say "nobody gets left behind" over and over and over then as soon as the da who gets a fractured ankle helping the community get left behind to die?

Why did nobody in the village think to bring more than a few spuds for the trip?

Why was arondir given all his weapons back when he was set free?

A show can't be 'objectively' terrible, it's all subjective opinion. If it was, then basically everyone would agree it was terrible.

As for the 'plot holes':

The one about the weapons is valid, but I can only assume that Adar just wanted to make sure he made it back alive to deliver the message.

Lenny Henry doesn't actually say "nobody gets left behind" - he says "nobody walks alone, nobody goes off trail" - meaning that no-one goes and does their own thing, everyone follows the group. But when they have to move, they have to move, and they can't wait around for people who are too weak to go with them.

The orcs were chasing Theo because he has the sword, Arondir is just protecting him. I thought that was pretty obvious.

They didn't only bring a few potatoes, that was just a visual representation that they don't have much food left. They literally talk about cutting back on rations, which shows they have other food but it's starting to run out. They can't access their crops or livestock and it's not like they'd have lots of pre-prepared food they could just take with them.

If you're going to criticise plot holes, at least pay attention to the show to make sure they actually are plot holes.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2022, 11:50:43 am by Rob Dylan »

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Re: Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power (Amazon TV series - September 2022)
« Reply #469 on: September 22, 2022, 11:38:50 am »
Put all lore debates aside and it's still an objectively terrible show. It's badly written, relies heavily on mysteries which are dull and predictable (Mithril being a prime example). The main protagonist is absolutely insufferable too.
I actually liked the first episode, especially the prologue, but it's been so unbelievably boring since. We are halfway through the season and nothing has happened.

Plot holes that make no sense:

Why does arondir get attacked in the woods by Adars lads if he was released to go deliver a message?

Why does lenny Henry say "nobody gets left behind" over and over and over then as soon as the da who gets a fractured ankle helping the community get left behind to die?

Why did nobody in the village think to bring more than a few spuds for the trip?

Why was arondir given all his weapons back when he was set free?

I’m going to assume this will be your last post in this thread. Will catch up with your wisdom elsewhere.
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Re: Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power (Amazon TV series - September 2022)
« Reply #470 on: September 22, 2022, 11:39:35 am »
I really don't understand why some people are doing backflips to justify bad writing.
I get that you don't want to be seen on the "same side" as 12 year old racist Internet trolls but come on. You can't tell me you think the writing on the show is good?
Oh.
The best way to scare a Tory is to read and get rich” - Idles.

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Re: Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power (Amazon TV series - September 2022)
« Reply #471 on: September 22, 2022, 11:46:58 am »
I really don't understand why some people are doing backflips to justify bad writing.
I get that you don't want to be seen on the "same side" as 12 year old racist Internet trolls but come on. You can't tell me you think the writing on the show is good?

We're not 'doing backflips', we're pointing out that the things you're saying are plot holes are actually obvious and explained in the show. I could ask you a similar question - why are you deliberately misinterpreting what's actually in the show?
« Last Edit: September 22, 2022, 11:56:45 am by Rob Dylan »

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Re: Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power (Amazon TV series - September 2022)
« Reply #472 on: September 22, 2022, 11:48:18 am »
I’m going to assume this will be your last post in this thread. Will catch up with your wisdom elsewhere.

Thank you for your thoughtful and insightful contribution! Maybe try to discuss the points at hand instead of trying to play the man instead of the ball?

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Re: Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power (Amazon TV series - September 2022)
« Reply #473 on: September 22, 2022, 11:56:27 am »
Thank you for your thoughtful and insightful contribution! Maybe try to discuss the points at hand instead of trying to play the man instead of the ball?

You hate the show, you’re unremittingly negative about, and want to share that with everyone here. Are you going to continue watching it for the scheduled 5 seasons in the hope that it meets your personal vision?

I suggest you join theonering.net, post your disappointment there, perhaps start a petition or even offer up your own improved screen/teleplays for everyone.

You’re disappointed, I rather enjoy it as an entertainment based on thin information from appendices & such like. As a spotty teenager I was a complete Tolkien nerd, but I like this for what it is. Perhaps I’m easily pleased; I even liked The Hobbit films as something I could sit down & watch with my young children. That doesn’t spoil the actual writings which I’ve also given to them over the years.
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Re: Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power (Amazon TV series - September 2022)
« Reply #474 on: September 22, 2022, 11:58:27 am »
We're not 'doing backflups', we're pointing out that the things you're saying are plot holes are actually obvious and explained in the show. I could ask you a similar question - why are you deliberately misinterpreting what's actually in the show?

You are though. I had the wording of the Lenny Henry chant wrong but the point still stands. "Nobody walks alone" until you are an inconvenience in which case we'll leave you to the wolves.

You are free to enjoy this show if you want. But as someone who has always been heavily invested in the lore and source material, its not for me. And I'm not alone in that regard.

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Re: Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power (Amazon TV series - September 2022)
« Reply #475 on: September 22, 2022, 12:21:18 pm »
You are though. I had the wording of the Lenny Henry chant wrong but the point still stands. "Nobody walks alone" until you are an inconvenience in which case we'll leave you to the wolves.

You are free to enjoy this show if you want. But as someone who has always been heavily invested in the lore and source material, its not for me. And I'm not alone in that regard.

No, those two statements have different meanings, especially in the context of the other things he says. 'Nobody walks alone' in this context means 'nobody goes off and does their own thing'. It's more of an order than something said to comfort someone. And they have to be ruthless to survive.

And again, the other things you pointed out are not plot holes, as they are easily explained by what actually happens in the show.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2022, 12:37:18 pm by Rob Dylan »

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Re: Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power (Amazon TV series - September 2022)
« Reply #476 on: September 22, 2022, 12:24:05 pm »
You are free to enjoy this show if you want. But as someone who has always been heavily invested in the lore and source material, its not for me. And I'm not alone in that regard.

but posting about what you don't watch is for you...

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Re: Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power (Amazon TV series - September 2022)
« Reply #477 on: September 22, 2022, 12:48:30 pm »
but posting about what you don't watch is for you...

I've watched it all.

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Re: Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power (Amazon TV series - September 2022)
« Reply #478 on: September 22, 2022, 01:48:38 pm »
You are free to enjoy this show if you want. But as someone who has always been heavily invested in the lore and source material, its not for me. And I'm not alone in that regard.

You've made your point - why don't you avoid the thread?

I have zero interest in House of Dragon - I do not go posting repeatedly in there I don't like House of Dragon.

The repetitive, tedious postings do nothing for the discussion and ultimately end up with getting threads locked.
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Re: Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power (Amazon TV series - September 2022)
« Reply #479 on: September 22, 2022, 02:19:52 pm »
Well i think its the second best thing ive watched in 2022 after Stranger Things.