Topic: Sexual Abuser Donald Trump Indicted

[John C]

Excellent post RB.

[Yorkykopite]

If he is impeached then he's martyred, if he isn't (most likely) then you've just gone 0-2 with the orange one and he'll be screaming it from the rooftops of the mini White house in Florida. No upside.

No upside? I love it!

Where did this idea come from that when someone is punished they are now said to be "martyred"? You hear it quite a lot. Every miscreant becomes Jesus Christ.

Of course it's a recipe for inaction born of fear. Essentially "don't touch the strong and powerful, no matter how criminal they are, because you'll make them even stronger." The code of the serf throughout the ages.

[Red Beret]

Excellent post RB.

Thanks mate.

I just want to add - it's a mistake to look at impeachment purely in political terms, even though impeachment is itself a political act.

We need to remember the circumstances which brought it about.  After Trump's "hostage video" he reverted to type on twitter.  He's done it before and we all expected it to happen; and it was clear from his tweets that he was going to continue to agitate for an uprising.  That's what earned him the twitter ban.  Twitter was forced to ban a sitting president of the United States for hate speech.

The purpose of the impeachment is to bar him from holding office in the future.  The argument that we shouldn't bother, as such an action is destined to fail and will hand Trump and his cohorts some kind of propaganda victory, is, I believe, a false one.  Because this shower will seize on ANYTHING to feed their martyr complex, and their narrative of "cancel culture".

You might as well say SDNY or Georgia shouldn't prosecute Trump either, as it will give Trump "the headlines he needs".  Hell, might as well let him walk altogether; forget the tax fraud, the repeated abuses of office, the assaults on women etc.  Don't want to give him any excuse to bleat witch hunt. 

Impeachment will not give Trump the headlines he needs, because the likes of OAN NewsMax or Fox will give him sympathetic headlines regardless. And in any case, they are already moving on to attacking Joe Biden.

Hate speech is not free speech.  And you don't turn a blind eye because it's the president who is doing it. Mike Pence was too spineless to go against the guy who tried to get him murdered - and that is not an exaggeration or hyperbole - so get Republicans as a whole on record as being okay with incitement of insurrection. Get them on record as refusing to bar a man from office who used a mob to endanger their lives.

[TipTopKop]

TipTop, I think you need to remind yourself of the impeachment timeline and why it happened.

I think there's  disconnect here between the debate being had and what my message is, and perhaps it's down to the way I'm wording it.

I am not saying Trump shouldn't be punished. I am saying these impeachment proceedings aren't the best means due to the various factors I listed.

When people keep repeating that he needs to be punished and held accountable, my argument isn't that he shouldn't, my argument is that this particular process won't do it.

I don't subscribe to the 'what's the harm in trying' argument because people like him thrive on airtime, you shouldn't go into a process with someone who craves the attention knowing you have no judge and the jurors have already indicated they don't intend to find him guilty.

If we are to believe the indications from the senate it looks like it will be voted down. Meaning, Dems will come and will (rightly) state their greviences, the senate will ultimately deliver a 'yeah but no' and all that's happened is he's had more oxygen and more headlines.

You might as well say SDNY or Georgia shouldn't prosecute Trump either, as it will give Trump "the headlines he needs".

Not at all. That is much more like it.

This is a proper platform where you're not going in knowing the (unfavourable) verdict (more or less) beforehand. These would be proper courts, with some very, real potential consequences behind them, not some symbolic slap on the wrist he can brush off like he's done with the SAG letter.

[Red Beret]

I am not saying Trump shouldn't be punished. I am saying these impeachment proceedings aren't the best means due to the various factors I listed.

When people keep repeating that he needs to be punished and held accountable, my argument isn't that he shouldn't, my argument is that this particular process won't do it.

Mate, I get what you're saying, but again you are forgetting WHY he was impeached.  It wasn't about punishing him - it was about removing him from office to stop him trying to overthrow the government again.  You don't just DROP the proceedings because he's left office.

Trump is going to get oxygen whatever, because of the multitude of other cases he is facing.  I honestly don't understand your reasoning and you have provided next to no evidence to back it up.  He didn't come out of the last impeachment any stronger or weaker, for example. 

Trump isn't going to get the kind of airtime you think, because after the riot he made his own brand toxic.  Even Fox isn't going to give him the same kind of blank check support it once did - first because he's no longer in office, second because of what happened, and third because Trump's targeted them himself.

Trump's "propaganda" victories are preaching to the converted - his base will believe whatever he tells them.  It's not going to impact wider public opinion.  It just isn't.  And you have provided no evidence that it will.

[TipTopKop]

Mate, I get what you're saying, but again you are forgetting WHY he was impeached.  It wasn't about punishing him - it was about removing him from office to stop him trying to overthrow the government again.  You don't just DROP the proceedings because he's left office.

But do you need 17 reps to make this happen? or can this be achieved with say 51-49 situation? I'm not too clued up on impeachment rules.

[Red Beret]

But do you need 17 reps to make this happen? or can this be achieved with say 51-49 situation? I'm not too clued up on impeachment rules.

You need two thirds of those present, so a maximum of 17 Reps. It's likely there wont be more than five, but that is still significant.  It's still a clear majority of the house stating that President Trump tried to overthrow the government; whilst the rest are, at best, not denying what he did - just trying to claim he can't be held to account for it.

[oldfordie]

A question to people opposed to this Impeachment.
Is it a criminal offense for a President to sit on his backside smiling for 4 hours while the government is under attack/overthrown.?
This is a political trial and it's first priority is to prove Trump is unfit for office. if criminal actions are exposed then all the better.

I don't see any downside to Impeaching Trump. the more you think about what will happen over those 10 days+ the more you see how this will benefit the US+The world, it would be nice to see him convicted but that's not going to happen, this is now about a public hearing exactly what led to the riots, his words and actions to incite the riot, his part in the weeks leading up to the riot, did he put pressure etc on the security services to deliberately leave the Senate and the Capitol building defenseless, his response to the riots,  did he immediately order more security to defend the Capitol building and the Senators when he saw those rioters with murder on their minds, then there's his initial public response to the riots,  why did he praise the rioters while they were still attacking the Senate, was it over 4 hrs before he made a public statement, Remain Peaceful Trump said, not leave peacefull.  even these words only came after Biden implored him to step in and do his job as president. then there's the rioters evidence and how they feel about Trump now. all these questions and more will be answered over the next few weeks in front of 10s of millions of Americans who will be glued to their TVs, that's the big upside to all this for me. people won't have to spend the next few months+ trying to find reliable information from many different reliable sources to find out Trumps part in the riots. they only have to watch the impeachment trial on TV and listen to the evidence first hand.
How will the public react to the impeachment trial evidence, will they be angry at the Republican Senators for not convicting Trump. will they be far more vocal calling for Trump to be prosecuted after hearing all this evidence. Trump may well face prosecution anyway, how will the public react if they don't hear next weeks evidence.

[Zlen]

It’s pretty simple for me really. At this point in history, there needs to be a record of republicans who are effectively ‘ok with a coup’. We know they are. They know they are. But due process is required. If Trump is barred from ever holding office - fine. If he isn’t - fine. But the republican party needs to (after all the evidence is presented) put their names on paper and  say ‘yeah, we’re ok with that - insert legal loophole here’.

This in itself is worth the time and effort.

[TSC]

You need two thirds of those present, so a maximum of 17 Reps. It's likely there wont be more than five, but that is still significant.  It's still a clear majority of the house stating that President Trump tried to overthrow the government; whilst the rest are, at best, not denying what he did - just trying to claim he can't be held to account for it.

Yep, as well as being a deterrent to anyone in future who fancies overthrowing an elected government by means of a coup, the impeachment process may shine a light on the those within the Rep party (of which there appear to be many) who, for whatever reason, effectively back Trump’s actions.

[Eeyore]

At the moment the GOP is a boil that needs lancing. There are so many people within that party that are prepared to support hate speech, white nationalism and incredibly dangerous conspiracy theories. Those same people are now saying that we should forget their actions and let the Country heal.

What they actually mean is allow them to skulk off back in to the shadows and continue to propagate hate, white nationalism and evil. Allow the boil to fester. What the Country needs is to take a long hard look at itself not let the insurrectionists and their agent provocateurs in the GOP walk away and come back better prepared next time.

[Red Beret]

It’s pretty simple for me really. At this point in history, there needs to be a record of republicans who are effectively ‘ok with a coup’. We know they are. They know they are. But due process is required. If Trump is barred from ever holding office - fine. If he isn’t - fine. But the republican party needs to (after all the evidence is presented) put their names on paper and  say ‘yeah, we’re ok with that - insert legal loophole here’.

This in itself is worth the time and effort.

Yep. Right now, Republicans are trying to have it both ways - saying what he did was wrong, but that it's unconstitutional to convict him because he's left office. It's an incredibly weak argument.

Another very important point to my mind: it was the open demands for invoking the 25th, and the imminent second impeachment, that ultimately contained Trump over those last two weeks.

I very much got the impression that Trump was effectively reduced to a figurehead over that period, being given stuff to do, and being firmly guided away from actions that could make his situation even worse by people who had finally woken up and realised this shit was real and not some dumb game; that Trump's not just a racist grandpa, but they were actually dealing with a wannabe dictator who was prepared to follow through on his threats.

People may say that the riot alone was enough of a wakeup call,  but I think the impeachment and potential threat of further violence acted as a vital breakwater to Trump taking matters further.

[CHOPPER]

I'm Jurgen

[Corkboy]

Anyone who feels impeachment is a waste of time, just remember that conservatives would fucking love it if the whole thing just faded away.

[Yorkykopite]

Anyone who feels impeachment is a waste of time, just remember that conservatives would fucking love it if the whole thing just faded away.

Yeah, that's all very well. But we don't want to upset their supporters do we? Or....what was it?....or waste tax payer's money bringing someone to justice.

Got to think small here, not big.

[fowlermagic]

You will see politics play out the way it usually does as one side wants to make a statement which can be used in 2022 campaigns while the other side want to brush it under the rug. The Dems have them by the throat here as support the impeachment Republicans will lose the support of the Trumpites. Reject the proceedings and you have just written the campaign ad that shows your approval for inciting violence against the government,

[TipTopKop]

Yeah, that's all very well. But we don't want to upset their supporters do we? Or....what was it?....or waste tax payer's money bringing someone to justice.

Yep that's really going to happen. I can almost picture the orange man fading into his orange jumpsuit as I type.

[Yorkykopite]

Yep that's really going to happen. I can almost picture the orange man fading into his orange jumpsuit as I type.

Don't understand. What is really going to happen?

[TipTopKop]

Don't understand. What is really going to happen?

"Bringing someone to justice", right?

[Yorkykopite]

"Bringing someone to justice", right?

Well it certainly won't happen if the Democratic party is as spineless as you. Or as keen to save "tax-payers' money."

[TipTopKop]

Well it certainly won't happen if the Democratic party is as spineless as you. Or as keen to save "tax-payers' money."

Well now Yorky, calling people spineless from behind your keyboard is not thinking 'big', and that is a shame.

Tell you what, come next week the impeachment trial will happen, and if the orange fucker is brought to justice and impeached I'll doff my cap to you, admit I'm wrong, and that I was indeed thinking 'small'.

If however he isn't. Can we add it to the long line of idealist bollocks, far removed from reality, that you seem to grace us with every now and then?

[John C]

If however he isn't. Can we add it to the long line of idealist bollocks, far removed from reality, that you seem to grace us with every now and then?

There's a possibility some people might regard that line as quite revealing TTK

[Yorkykopite]

Well now Yorky, calling people spineless from behind your keyboard is not thinking 'big', and that is a shame.

Tell you what, come next week the impeachment trial will happen, and if the orange fucker is brought to justice and impeached I'll doff my cap to you, admit I'm wrong, and that I was indeed thinking 'small'.

If however he isn't. Can we add it to the long line of idealist bollocks, far removed from reality, that you seem to grace us with every now and then?

Your shameful alternative (though you somehow think it is "hard-headed") is to capitulate and not even try and bring the guy to justice. The political effects of such spinelessness, should the Democrats somehow follow your advice, would be dreadful. Trump - and wannabe Trumps - need to know that what they did was illegal and that it won't simply be met with a shrug.

You say that the effort to punish Trump is a waste of tax-payers' money. There's nothing much you can say to that, except laugh. You say it will upset Trump's voters. Tough.

[TipTopKop]

Your shameful alternative (though you somehow think it is "hard-headed") is to capitulate and not even try and bring the guy to justice. The political effects of such spinelessness, should the Democrats somehow follow your advice, would be dreadful. Trump - and wannabe Trumps - need to know that what they did was illegal and that it won't simply be met with a shrug.

You say that the effort to punish Trump is a waste of tax-payers' money. There's nothing much you can say to that, except laugh. You say it will upset Trump's voters. Tough.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with bringing him to justice. There are other potential trials Red Berry mentioned which could do proper damage and put him behind bars. To my mind, next week's isn't the arena for reasons I previously stated.

Again, you can choose to be idealistic, wag your finger, and talk about being spineless (I notice it's now swiftly changed from "bringing him to justice" to "try and bring the guy to justice"), happy to see a government devote a week of its resources in the midst of huge unemployment and a global pandemic chasing something that won't happen and yes, claim it's worth the tax payer's money of which you don't pay cent from behind your keyboard, or you can pick the correct platform to do this.

I don't subscribe to the theory about deterring wannabe Trumps. Wake up. In case you haven't noticed they are already here and they are as vocal as ever and have been since the nutjobs thought their election was "stolen".

Vegas already have odds of which demented freak is willing to take his place, from DeSantis, to Hawley, to Cruz, to Jr. and on and on. There is no shortage of crazed, bigotted cretins willing to take the reigns. A show trial -practically dead on arrival- is not going to make them think twice. Where there was Fox News there is now Newsmax, OAN, Alex Jones, The First TV and a million other crazed fuckers peddling their shite. They are not going to fold because a Senate is going to wag its finger at an empty chair, while the orange c*nt is sunning it in Florida at the time.

You want to hurt MAGA you go to the people. You want to hurt Trump you go to the Tax and criminal courts.

There's a possibility some people might regard that line as quite revealing TTK

I don't know John mate. I like to look at a situation from more than one angle. If that puts me at odds with most on here then I can live with that. I felt the same way in the Corbyn thread. It's either you're this or that, no in between. I'm fairly allergic to this sort of thinking, and I've always been wary of group think.

When I see a situation where something isn't right, I ask questions. The middle east is a particular mess I found, I went there, for years, spoke to people, and found a million and one opinion, most of which didn't fit the narrative. I certainly don't profess to be a know it all from behind my keyboard.

[BarryCrocker]

If you want true punishment force anybody to watch Mike Lindell's explosive expose 'Absolute Proof' on the fraud behind the US Election.

"The biggest crime ever committed against humanity" - Mike Lindell (MyPillow Guy)

https://www.newsweek.com/mypillow-doc-first-glimpses-1567221

[TSC]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with bringing him to justice. There are other potential trials Red Berry mentioned which could do proper damage and put him behind bars. To my mind, next week's isn't the arena for reasons I previously stated.

I don't subscribe to the theory about deterring wannabe Trumps. Wake up. In case you haven't noticed they are already here and they are as vocal as ever and have been since the nutjobs thought their election was "stolen".



You want to hurt MAGA you go to the people. You want to hurt Trump you go to the Tax and criminal courts.

There are no doubt other narcissistic Trump influenced nut types in and around the Rep party.  Which is why it’s necessary to show that it’s not OK to attempt to overthrow an elected government.  If nothing else it may prevent some other nutcase trying same in future.

State criminal proceedings may arise in addition to the impeachment in due course.

[Red Beret]

TipTop, this is my final word on this issue. Let me start by saying I both understand and admire you for sticking to your guns, and you've made a valid point on impeachment conviction, as we all know Republicans and what happened last time.

However, as the saying goes, whilst we are all entitled to our own opinions, we are not entitled to our own facts.  These are facts:

- Trump is the leader of a violent, white supremacist, domestic terrorism movement
- his followers tried to violently overthrow the lawful government of the US, and Trump did everything he could to let them
- he lost the election by 7 million votes
- he lost the popular vote twice
- Trump never cracked a 50% approval rating. Joe Biden exceeded 60% in his first two weeks,  just by virtue of not being Donald Trump.
- Trump left office with the lowest approval rating of any Republican president amongst Republican voters in years. Something like 70%, which sounds high, until you consider that, in office, Trump routinely enjoyed approval ratings amongst Republican voters of high 80s to low 90s
- since the insurrection, thousands of Republican voters have deregistered from the party
- donors have held back money from Republican candidates and elected officials.

You have offered nothing to back your opinion up, other than vague assertions that impeaching Trump will antagonize his base, make him a martyr, or hand him and the Republican Party some kind of propaganda victory.

And, whilst you couch your opinion in reasonable terms of wanting to focus on Covid relief, getting the economy back up and running, not splitting the country, moving on and healing political divisions, you sound, at best, just plain scared; scared of what else might happen.  At worst, you come across as skirting outright appeasement - and history shows, you cannot appease a dictator.

Fear is ok. Fear is normal. Nobody wants to see more violence and bloodshed; and it's important to crack on with the tasks at hand.  But fear is what Trump and his people want. Fear is their bargaining chip, their only bargaining chip. Fear is the currency of the Republican party.

We cannot take emotion out of this political decision because it is emotion that drives it - the moral necessity to stand against terror and hold terrorists to account.

Donald Trump is not as powerful as he wants you to think, and neither is his base. That is the essence of the conman - make your opponent believe you are more than you are. Treat Trump and his ilk as abstract phantoms and you empower them. We need to deal with the reality of them - terrorists and lawbreakers, acting on the orders of a corrupt despot who wants unquestioning adoration and absolute power.

They will not be any more enraged by impeachment than they already are. Prosecuting impeachment wont hinder any subsequent criminal proceedings; it will not inhibit work on Covid relief, or steps to rebuild the economy. You have provided no evidence to support any of these assertions.

We may not have anything to gain from impeaching Trump, but equally we have absolutely nothing to lose either.

[Yorkykopite]

We may not have anything to gain from impeaching Trump, but equally we have absolutely nothing to lose either.

Indeed.

Tip Top is a binary thinker and therefore cannot understand logic like that. He wrote earlier that the Democrats could either "fuck the 74 million" (by which he means pursue impeachment) or address the economic concerns of the Rust Belt. Similarly, he feels that Trump should be pursued by the tax authorities and the state courts rather than the Senate. One simply has to replace "rather" with "and" to show the emptiness of that point. 

The problem with playing the binary game is that you end up sounding as preposterous as someone like Ted Cruz, who complains that rejoining the Paris Climate Agreement means Biden won't help Pittsburgh. It's stupid politics dressed up as 'realistic' politics. But all you succeed in doing is to close down legitimate options. Bringing Trump to justice is not inconsistent with bringing infrastructure to Youngstown. Fortunately these things are still obvious to most people.

[Billy The Kid]

Anyone who feels impeachment is a waste of time, just remember that conservatives would fucking love it if the whole thing just faded away.

I think it's a waste of time. Not because I want Trump to walk or escape accountability to the rule of law, but because there's a wider issue here that many people seem to be ignoring. From what I can see, some people have such a raging hard-on for a Trump downfall that they've lost all ability to look at the bigger picture. You can see it not only in what they say, but also the lengths they go to in order to convince themselves that a Trump demise is an eventuality waiting to happen.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with many of the premises behind impeaching and convicting Trump. I just think it's all a bit pointless going to Rachel Maddow-esque lengths to explain why the c*nt ought to go down for his crimes when the real problem here is the fact we now have a political party that has careered so far out of control that the constitution is barely worth the paper it's written on. It's clear to anyone watching now (or during the previous impeachment) that they majority of Republicans have thrown all morals and constitutional obligations out the window in order to maintain as much control and power as they possibly can.

Trump got away scot free in the last impeachment trial. We all knew that was going to be the outcome before the trial even started despite the fact he was guilty as sin. It's going to be the same this time. The Republican Party are not going to convict him despite the fact he jeopardised the safety of congressional members and caused some people to wind up in body bags. Again, those tasked with being fair jurors (as is their constitutional obligation) have openly said they have no intention of convicting here. So yeah, impeachment is a waste of time. I don't see how anyone can argue otherwise

Donald Trump is but one wart on the wider posterior of modern American politics. He (and the crimes he is about to get away with yet again) are a manifestation of it. Not the other way around. I say start there. Start with that and look at the ways that can possibly be reversed instead of wasting time on some bullshit impeachment that is nothing more than a farce at this point.

[TipTopKop]

These are facts:

- Trump is the leader of a violent, white supremacist, domestic terrorism movement
- his followers tried to violently overthrow the lawful government of the US, and Trump did everything he could to let them
- he lost the election by 7 million votes
- he lost the popular vote twice
- Trump never cracked a 50% approval rating. Joe Biden exceeded 60% in his first two weeks,  just by virtue of not being Donald Trump.
- Trump left office with the lowest approval rating of any Republican president amongst Republican voters in years. Something like 70%, which sounds high, until you consider that, in office, Trump routinely enjoyed approval ratings amongst Republican voters of high 80s to low 90s
- since the insurrection, thousands of Republican voters have deregistered from the party
- donors have held back money from Republican candidates and elected officials.

Cheers Red Berry.

I have absolutely no qualms with any of the above. I don't believe any of my prior posts have disputed the above.

You have offered nothing to back your opinion up, other than vague assertions that impeaching Trump will antagonize his base, make him a martyr, or hand him and the Republican Party some kind of propaganda victory.

I have repeatedly stated that there is nothing wrong in going after Trump or his base. I'm just not sure why stating that this impeachment being DOA is somehow appeasing him.

Currently, there is an ideology, far bigger than one orange guy which threatens the soul of the country. A plethora of measures can be taken to hit this ideology or curtail it, both including and in isolation of Trump:

1) Designate the militias like Proud Boys, Boogaloo's, Oath Keepers as terrorist groups (Canada's already started this with the Proud Boys as I'm sure you know).
2) Launch criminal proceedings with regards to Tax and other issues, which you have already mentioned.
3) Use Senate and other levels of government to fix the vaccine rollouts in NY, California and other parts of the country, get Lightfoot to stop fannying about with the teacher's unions and get people safely and responsibly back in school, so that the country can open up and the economy to start moving.
4) Show the country the jobs being created. Show them the equality in society and better health care/education for all. I do believe some measures and executive orders have started to address this and the implementation of these steps should continue.

At worst, you come across as skirting outright appeasement - and history shows, you cannot appease a dictator.

I've resigned myself to a permanent disconnect when it comes to the logic of what I'm trying to say on this bit. I'm afraid I can't say it any clearer that there are more effective measures to hit a dictator.

Screaming at an angry chair in a court where the judge has bailed and its very constitution is in question, where the jurors have effectively indicated weeks in advance that they're set to let him go free and I've yet to read a single mainstream analyst (liberal or conservative) state they think a favourable result (impeachment) is likely, where the defendant is no longer in position nor is the sociopath obliged/bothered to attend. Well, as stated above, to me there will always be better methods, and harder hitting ones.

Rather than go in circles (probably too late for that now!), I'm just going to say we won't have long to find out if this trial will:

1) Stop Trump spouting nonsense (or possibly running for office again if he so decides).
2) Deter others from pushing his toxic ideology.
3) Put conservative media in its place and stop them from peddling conspiracies.

Ohers may have a different barometer by which success/failure this impeachment will be measured by. I appreciate this. To me though, that's my marker. You want to strike, you have to put yourself in a proper position to hit those one by one, you certainly don't tie your own hands behind your back and go charging in asking 17 Republicans to see it your way while the twat's not even there. 

Donald Trump is not as powerful as he wants you to think, and neither is his base.

Perversely Red Berry, this is the precise point I am making. I am saying he's being given the headlines and oxygen when he should no longer matter.

His base however is a vague one. This has a range from the hardcore (those don't really amount to much in my opinion) but it goes right down to middle America, specifically the states that voted Biden in where they once voted him in. You have 2 years to get the ball rolling and show them the hate-less alternative.

I don't think I can write it enough times that I am not against going after Trump or his base. I am however in disagreement with the methods currently being applied. I guess I've always liked to know where I'm going in life, to have some sort of a roadmap or a plan.

My post history on here details my personal dealings with both the State Dept and later Pentagon when consulting on a post war Iraq future. I'm no expert. I just know politics is far more nuanced than the reductive narrative some may wish to reduce it to on an internet forum.

Behind the keyboard we all want good to prevail over evil, we all want extremism stamped.

I've travelled, spoken to people, some really unpleasant ones with ideologies far removed from mine, but I don't adapt if I don't see the other angle. Now some keyboard idealists may wish to discuss the psyche of a serf or reduce my thinking as binary. I prefer to have some practicality with my idealism.

There is text book thinking of what is right and wrong, and there is a real world -look at the playing field, know your losses and gains- right and wrong.

To go into this process knowing the outcome (when all the speeches are done and everyone's waxed lyrical) that Trump's going to continue spouting his shit from Florida and his minions are still in play, makes me look to alternative means. Now some may interpret this as appeasement on my part, I'm afraid I can't help change people's minds, more power to them, but time will tell if this impeachment will stop Trump or his cohorts.

We won't have long to find out at least mate 

[KillieRed]

I believe , and the better informed please correct me if I’m wrong, what the impeachment trial can achieve is:

(1) Shining a light on the origins, backers & cheerleaders of the insurrection whilst making senators show themselves for what they are.

(2) More importantly, they can/will vote to bar Trump from public office. I think this is just a majority vote required rather than supermajority? I have no doubt that if this was a secret ballot, many duplicitous republicans would vote against Trump with relief.

[Yorkykopite]

I have repeatedly stated that there is nothing wrong in going after Trump or his base.

But you have! That was your original point. There was no "upside" in going after Trump is what you said. Fail, and it represents a waste of tax payers'. Succeed and you make Trump a martyr.

[TSC]

I believe , and the better informed please correct me if I’m wrong, what the impeachment trial can achieve is:

(1) Shining a light on the origins, backers & cheerleaders of the insurrection whilst making senators show themselves for what they are.

(2) More importantly, they can/will vote to bar Trump from public office. I think this is just a majority vote required rather than supermajority? I have no doubt that if this was a secret ballot, many duplicitous republicans would vote against Trump with relief.

Your first point is interesting as there may be as yet unseen video evidence released during the trial.  If so that alone may be quite powerful in shining a light on the wider Republican Party in addition to Trump.

Your second point may also be valid but confess I’m not entirely sure on that.

[TipTopKop]

But you have! That was your original point. There was no "upside" in going after Trump is what you said. Fail, and it represents a waste of tax payers'. Succeed and you make Trump a martyr.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with bringing him to justice. There are other potential trials Red Berry mentioned which could do proper damage and put him behind bars. To my mind, next week's isn't the arena for reasons I previously stated.

I don't think it benefits anyone my repeatedly copying my opinion over and over so I'm going to now wait and see the impeachment take place and when it concludes, let's see if Trump is impeached, let's see if it eliminates DeStantis, Hawley etc, or the right wing media from it's current course. If they do, success, if not...

Time will tell. There's no point in going in circles over this. I hope everyone's made their stance clear.

[oldfordie]

I think it's a waste of time. Not because I want Trump to walk or escape accountability to the rule of law, but because there's a wider issue here that many people seem to be ignoring. From what I can see, some people have such a raging hard-on for a Trump downfall that they've lost all ability to look at the bigger picture. You can see it not only in what they say, but also the lengths they go to in order to convince themselves that a Trump demise is an eventuality waiting to happen.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with many of the premises behind impeaching and convicting Trump. I just think it's all a bit pointless going to Rachel Maddow-esque lengths to explain why the c*nt ought to go down for his crimes when the real problem here is the fact we now have a political party that has careered so far out of control that the constitution is barely worth the paper it's written on. It's clear to anyone watching now (or during the previous impeachment) that they majority of Republicans have thrown all morals and constitutional obligations out the window in order to maintain as much control and power as they possibly can.

Trump got away scot free in the last impeachment trial. We all knew that was going to be the outcome before the trial even started despite the fact he was guilty as sin. It's going to be the same this time. The Republican Party are not going to convict him despite the fact he jeopardised the safety of congressional members and caused some people to wind up in body bags. Again, those tasked with being fair jurors (as is their constitutional obligation) have openly said they have no intention of convicting here. So yeah, impeachment is a waste of time. I don't see how anyone can argue otherwise

Donald Trump is but one wart on the wider posterior of modern American politics. He (and the crimes he is about to get away with yet again) are a manifestation of it. Not the other way around. I say start there. Start with that and look at the ways that can possibly be reversed instead of wasting time on some bullshit impeachment that is nothing more than a farce at this point.

So lets assume all the evidence next week proves Trump is guilty as sin which will happen. the evidence will be damning. no point going into all the evidence, the point is 10s of millions of decent Americans will watch the Impeachment, the evidence will prove Trump tried to violantly overthrow the result of the election, people died, politicians hid in fear of their lives,  how will the people watching feel when they watch all those Republican Senators vote to find Trump not guilty when the majority of people know Trump is guilty as sin. am in no doubt over how they will feel, Millions of Americans will feel nothing but contempt for the Republican Senators who hid behind a technicality in fear so they had the excuse to find Trump not guilty. those Republican Senators will pay the price for their cowardice in the next elections. this isn't all about Trump. it's also about educating the public on the facts, sending a message to the right. inciting anger against your country with lies will cost you your careers.
There's another part of the Impeachment process that's not been covered much on here.
The Senate will move onto the 2nd vote after the vote on whether Trump is guilty of inciting a riot. they will vote on whether Trump should be barred from holding public office again. this vote only needs a majority to pass.  am sure the Republicans and others will argue Trump shouldn't be barred from holding public office if he's just been found not guilty. am leaning towards he should be barred as the argument should be the Democrats are doing their duty, they will not be deterred from protecting the American people just because the Republican Senators want to hide in fear.

[Yorkykopite]

I don't think it benefits anyone my repeatedly copying my opinion over and over...

To be fair that's your opinion today. But your opinion 48 hours ago was something different......

If he is impeached then he's martyred, if he isn't (most likely) then you've just gone 0-2 with the orange one and he'll be screaming it from the rooftops of the mini White house in Florida. No upside.

That's what I was arguing against - the idea that a successful impeachment of Trump would spell trouble. It's what others were arguing against too.

[TipTopKop]

To be fair that's your opinion today. But your opinion 48 hours ago was something different......

Really not going to lose much sleep on how you interpret my opinion, especially as I know how much yours is worth.

[Yorkykopite]

Really not going to lose much sleep on how you interpret my opinion, especially as I know how much yours is worth.

The word "interpret" is a bit glossy in this context! It's quite sufficient to simply quote it.

[Red Beret]

I think the matter should be dropped now.  Everyone has stated their opinion and nobody is changing anybody else's minds.  The thread is just getting bogged down in a circular argument.

Let's just wait until Tuesday.

[John C]

Let's be clear, in any other circumstances threatening the Acting Attorney General of Georgia and that entire conversation in itself is worthy of Impeachment and a vote at a trial, irrespective of the anticipated outcome. That cannot be allowed to become a norm and to be repeated because it's regarded as inconsequential.

I still shudder at the thought of what was conspired on January 6th, albeit grateful there wasn't more deaths. Every single thing that occurred on that day was orchestrated by Trump and his cohorts and he must be brought to trial in the exact manner the Impeachment process was designed for. It's unthinkable to reach any other conclusion.

It may be an inconvenience to the business of Government, but a corrupt President has to be held accountable.