Topic: Stevie G and Saudi Arabia

[liverbloke]

people will most probably jump on me now - i'm used to it so...

but when you play in the 'saudi' league or for a 'saudi' team you have to adhere to their strict laws of islam

if you play in the US soccer leagues do you have to adhere strictly to christian laws? no

it's kind of accepting islamic law by the back door

as the saudis eat up all the other sports and get stronger and stronger then will this mean that sport would soon be under a lot more islamic laws eating away at democracy?

the players, the clubs, the managers, the boards, THE FANS adhering to rules and regulations that are dictated to by religious beliefs?

and before anyone thinks i'm anti-muslim - no, i couldn't give 2 fucks if you were a jedi - it is your morals that i would solely judge you on

lest we forget the world cup

[lobsterboy]

Its all about money and power.
If you are rich enough you just don't have to abide by any of it.
That's been the way of most religion and the world for centuries.

[Kalito]

people will most probably jump on me now - i'm used to it so...

but when you play in the 'saudi' league or for a 'saudi' team you have to adhere to their strict laws of islam

if you play in the US soccer leagues do you have to adhere strictly to christian laws? no

it's kind of accepting islamic law by the back door

as the saudis eat up all the other sports and get stronger and stronger then will this mean that sport would soon be under a lot more islamic laws eating away at democracy?

the players, the clubs, the managers, the boards, THE FANS adhering to rules and regulations that are dictated to by religious beliefs?

and before anyone thinks i'm anti-muslim - no, i couldn't give 2 fucks if you were a jedi - it is your morals that i would solely judge you on

lest we forget the world cup

Very politely...

What a load of waffle.

It's all about money and power, like lobsterboy says. Nowt to do with religion.

But you carry on...

[liverbloke]

Very politely...

What a load of waffle.

It's all about money and power, like lobsterboy says. Nowt to do with religion.

But you carry on...

i will...

[ScouserAtHeart]

That's just sad

[ChaChaMooMoo]

When he gets sacked, a lot of us can expect a "I left because I had to do to provide for my family but my heart never left Liverpool" video/post

[TSC]

When he gets sacked, a lot of us can expect a "I left because I had to do to provide for my family but my heart never left Liverpool" video/post

No idea how ‘good’ or ‘bad’ his team is on the pitch, but if they can chuck enough dosh to tempt him I’d guess there’s enough money there to hold their own in their league.  Even if everything is relative and the competition won’t exactly be skint.  So doubt he’ll be for the chop, especially as he’s high profile in UK/Europe.

[Yorkykopite]

No idea how ‘good’ or ‘bad’ his team is on the pitch, but if they can chuck enough dosh to tempt him I’d guess there’s enough money there to hold their own in their league.  Even if everything is relative and the competition won’t exactly be skint.  So doubt he’ll be for the chop, especially as he’s high profile in UK/Europe.

Let's hope he's not given "the chop" in the Saudi embassy.

[LovelyCushionedHeader]

Nothing surprises me anymore.

There seem to be so few people who are prepared to stand up for anything. Taking the money, "for my family" has become the acceptable norm. The hard news of the way the regime acts seems a long way from the Sports pages.

The only people I can think of at the moment are Rory McElroy and Jordan Speith who turned the money down, then sadly the whole of professional golf gets bought by Saudi anyway.

I just hope they can take the money and do some good with it rather than just grinning and banking it.

There will be a lot more turning down the money, and very likely more than those that are accepting it. We just don't hear about it, mostly because I imagine the sportsmen don't want the aggro. If you take golf as the example, then pretty much every top 100 golfer that didn't join LIV would have turned them down because you can guarantee that they all will have been approached. Tiger Woods as well turned down a shit ton.

It's the same in football as well. There's no way the Saudi clubs are signing players like Ruben Neves and not trying for many more around his level and better. Son is on record as turning them down, and there's been strong rumours about the likes of Messi, Thiago, Vardy, Lukaku, Modric, Mahrez and Marco Silva too. There will be hundreds that have said no, it's that eventually they get far enough down their list and someone like Brozovic says yes.

[ToneLa]

When he gets sacked, a lot of us can expect a "I left because I had to do to provide for my family but my heart never left Liverpool" video/post

And I don't expect to see it, or watch it

[damomad]

It just feels like the floodgates are open now regarding this type of move. No point getting attached to any footballer or manager ever again. There's so much money at stake, they'll all be tempted by the move to Saudi.

There's rarely any real loyalty to local clubs these days, it's all about the highest bidder. Saudi are just taking it to the extreme and players and managers are throwing their moral compasses into the abyss while they're at.

Who knows, maybe this will lead to a generation of supporters who pack it all in and support grassroots clubs, instead of paying subscriptions to Saudi owned television networks, showing Saudi clubs while promoting the barbaric Saudi state, all with a helping hand of our club legends.

[goalrushatgoodison]

That's just sad

Just saw the actual video and its not just sad, its fucking sickening.

[Iska]

There will be a lot more turning down the money, and very likely more than those that are accepting it. We just don't hear about it, mostly because I imagine the sportsmen don't want the aggro. If you take golf as the example, then pretty much every top 100 golfer that didn't join LIV would have turned them down because you can guarantee that they all will have been approached. Tiger Woods as well turned down a shit ton.

It's the same in football as well. There's no way the Saudi clubs are signing players like Ruben Neves and not trying for many more around his level and better. Son is on record as turning them down, and there's been strong rumours about the likes of Messi, Thiago, Vardy, Lukaku, Modric, Mahrez and Marco Silva too. There will be hundreds that have said no, it's that eventually they get far enough down their list and someone like Brozovic says yes.

This is a really good point btw. Everyone above Brozovic level who hasn’t moved—or at any rate everyone who hasn’t moved and has an agent or club with its nose in the trough—has said no.  That’s something.  It makes the yea-sayers look even worse though to be honest.

[ChaChaMooMoo]

No idea how ‘good’ or ‘bad’ his team is on the pitch, but if they can chuck enough dosh to tempt him I’d guess there’s enough money there to hold their own in their league.  Even if everything is relative and the competition won’t exactly be skint.  So doubt he’ll be for the chop, especially as he’s high profile in UK/Europe.

I don't think he will stay there for 20 or 25 years.

He will eventually get bored like every other footballer or any working professional in the middle east. It is the epitome of fakeness and non-organic growth.  It is sure shiny and polished at first. But somewhere down the line, it will be plastic, fake and deserving of utmost hatred and contempt. Thats when people realise that 5 years of their life they could've done something else worthwhile.

And when that happens he will either kick up a fake bust-up to make it look like a culture clash and bitch out on his own accord. Or come up with a pathetic statement something on the lines of "the only club I will ever imagined managing is Liverpool".

And when either of that happens, and I expect it to happen in the next 5 years, he will come crawling back like a tame kitten and come up with that pathetic excuse that I said he will do.

[Nobby Reserve]

Maybe all part of a grand plan of his to succeed Eddie Howe when Howe gets executed for not delivering the Champions League.

[thejbs]

people will most probably jump on me now - i'm used to it so...

but when you play in the 'saudi' league or for a 'saudi' team you have to adhere to their strict laws of islam

if you play in the US soccer leagues do you have to adhere strictly to christian laws? no

it's kind of accepting islamic law by the back door

as the saudis eat up all the other sports and get stronger and stronger then will this mean that sport would soon be under a lot more islamic laws eating away at democracy?

the players, the clubs, the managers, the boards, THE FANS adhering to rules and regulations that are dictated to by religious beliefs?

and before anyone thinks i'm anti-muslim - no, i couldn't give 2 fucks if you were a jedi - it is your morals that i would solely judge you on

lest we forget the world cup

USA isn’t a Christian country in that it doesn’t have a national religion. England is a better example. We have shows of organised fealty to royalty. We force players to wear poppies and our press shame those that don’t.

And no, I don’t think this is about religion at all.

[liverbloke]

USA isn’t a Christian country in that it doesn’t have a national religion. England is a better example. We have shows of organised fealty to royalty. We force players to wear poppies and our press shame those that don’t.

And no, I don’t think this is about religion at all.

my point was about islamic law creeping into sport

for example, if the saudis gain a major golf tournament but decide that any sponsors will not be able to sell alcohol or that any golfer must not do this or do that as it would be a conflict of their religion - remember the not wearing of rainbow laces or anything that freely demonstrated support of human rights last year

yes, religion IS about money and power - but i was thinking of how the game could change if the money people (the saudis in this debate) call the shots once they have a foothold

didn't we see the 'shots' already being called in the last world cup?

[ChaChaMooMoo]

my point was about islamic law creeping into sport

for example, if the saudis gain a major golf tournament but decide that any sponsors will not be able to sell alcohol or that any golfer must not do this or do that as it would be a conflict of their religion - remember the not wearing of rainbow laces or anything that freely demonstrated support of human rights last year

yes, religion IS about money and power - but i was thinking of how the game could change if the money people (the saudis in this debate) call the shots once they have a foothold

didn't we see the 'shots' already being called in the last world cup?

Apples and Oranges the way I see it mate.
In QATAR, follow QATARI rules. That was the issue last year.
I dont think City or PSG have banned alcohols in their stadiums just because they are owned from the middle east.
Playing devils advocate here.

[Too early for flapjacks?]

Nothing to do with religion. The Saudi's have generally had very little need to engage with the wider world. For decades they've sold billions of dollars of oil per day to the world and it's allowed them to live very comfortably. But they know they have to broaden their economy and participate in a more globalised world as the world's reliance on oil declines over the coming decades. They'll want to line up alongside other big countries to help shape policy and direction. The other thing is they have a very young population and there is a desire from them to see evolution (rather than revolution) as part of the global world they've been raised in.

[liverbloke]

Nothing to do with religion. The Saudi's have generally had very little need to engage with the wider world. For decades they've sold billions of dollars of oil per day to the world and it's allowed them to live very comfortably. But they know they have to broaden their economy and participate in a more globalised world as the world's reliance on oil declines over the coming decades. They'll want to line up alongside other big countries to help shape policy and direction. The other thing is they have a very young population and there is a desire from them to see evolution (rather than revolution) as part of the global world they've been raised in.

as said - the last world cup was affected by that country's belief system so i'm asking here whether future promotion or events will be affected by owners' beliefs

most football associations aren't the most trustworthy at the best of times so if money talks then...

but good points have already been raised regarding psg and city and i guess we can add newcastle too (imagine trying to ban alcohol at their place!)

[Iska]

i'm asking here whether future promotion or events will be affected by owners' beliefs

It’s possible but it would be a matter of trying to use their leverage to impose an islamic culture, rather than directly imposing islamic law. It’s a little bit hard to keep that distinction in mind because the stricter the culture is, the more the culture *is* the law.  The leverage they have is as owners of the stadium, it’s piddling compared to being a sovereign power able to impose an actual law.  They could try I suppose, but they’ve bought into a western gig, they don’t like it but they’ll have to go along with it.

What would be interesting would be if they acquired enough clubs to become a majority or a blocking minority.  Then conceivably they might be able to impose their culture on the whole league.  It would meet massive resistance though - in free western countries it’s a basic principle that the culture generally isn’t the law, it’s so fundamental to us that we react with disgust at the idea of having our freedoms threatened that way, hence your strong reaction here.  But if they did own it and were bloody-minded enough, yes in theory they could do it.

[BarryCrocker]

Indeed, the move itself has seen Amnesty UK’s Economic Affairs Director Peter Frankental speak on Gerrard, saying:

“The gathering stampede from players and coaches to join Saudi Arabian football clubs on lucrative contracts is more evidence that Saudi sportswashing has gone into overdrive.

“Across multiple sports and multiple formats, the Saudi state is deploying huge sums to sportswash its heavily tarnished image and deflect attention from an appalling human rights record.

“Under Mohammed bin Salman, there’s been a frightening human rights crackdown, with peaceful activists jailed, a staggering 196 people executed last year alone, and there’s still been no justice after the murder of Jamal Khashoggi.

“The Saudi strategy on football appears to be to keep ratcheting up the big-name deals to create the momentum for a bid to host the World Cup in 2030.

“Fifa must apply stringent human rights risk assessments to any Saudi bid for 2030, but we also need to see FIFA, star signings and high-profile managers like Steven Gerrard speaking out about Saudi Arabia’s atrocious human rights record.”

[jackh]

So we've got discussion about Steven Gerrard and Saudi Arabia in the following threads:

> Saudi Arabia's raid of European clubs - General Football & Sport
> Re: Steven Gerrard - Former LFC Players
> Re: Stevie G and Saudi Arabia - News & Current Affairs

I'd suggest merging into the 'former players' one, given the opening post.

[liverbloke]

It’s possible but it would be a matter of trying to use their leverage to impose an islamic culture, rather than directly imposing islamic law. It’s a little bit hard to keep that distinction in mind because the stricter the culture is, the more the culture *is* the law.  The leverage they have is as owners of the stadium, it’s piddling compared to being a sovereign power able to impose an actual law.  They could try I suppose, but they’ve bought into a western gig, they don’t like it but they’ll have to go along with it.

What would be interesting would be if they acquired enough clubs to become a majority or a blocking minority.  Then conceivably they might be able to impose their culture on the whole league.  It would meet massive resistance though - in free western countries it’s a basic principle that the culture generally isn’t the law, it’s so fundamental to us that we react with disgust at the idea of having our freedoms threatened that way, hence your strong reaction here.  But if they did own it and were bloody-minded enough, yes in theory they could do it.

cheers iska - good points there

[Yorkykopite]

Big opportunity for Gerrard's wife (or indeed Stevie 'G') to say something and perhaps do a bit of good.

https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2023/jul/18/i-am-a-prisoner-women-fight-middle-eastern-laws-that-keep-them-trapped-at-home

[BarryCrocker]

Big opportunity for Gerrard's wife (or indeed Stevie 'G') to say something and perhaps do a bit of good.

https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2023/jul/18/i-am-a-prisoner-women-fight-middle-eastern-laws-that-keep-them-trapped-at-home

She's more likely to release a Forever Unique Burka then stand-up for anyone's rights.

[Red-Soldier]

Big opportunity for Gerrard's wife (or indeed Stevie 'G') to say something and perhaps do a bit of good.

https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2023/jul/18/i-am-a-prisoner-women-fight-middle-eastern-laws-that-keep-them-trapped-at-home

I read that as 'middle aged' laws. 

Their laws are from thousands of years ago, so it could've been that too.

[So… Howard Philips]

She's more likely to release a Forever Unique Burka then stand-up for anyone's rights.

Cue shots of her in a Vuitton headscarf.

[Oscarmac]

What saddens me most is the apathy of a lot of our fans. The idea of what it means to be a Liverpool fan seems to be fading for many. When Klopp was appointed we spoke of how he "got us". We like to think of ourselves as different, promoting social justice through food banks and working to make our world a fairer place for all. But many of our own fans just dont care, and don't want to have to face up to the reality of the real effects of sportwashing. I never expected much of the players, it is some of our own fans who have left me deflated.

[...]

What saddens me most is the apathy of a lot of our fans. The idea of what it means to be a Liverpool fan seems to be fading for many. When Klopp was appointed we spoke of how he "got us". We like to think of ourselves as different, promoting social justice through food banks and working to make our world a fairer place for all. But many of our own fans just dont care, and don't want to have to face up to the reality of the real effects of sportwashing. I never expected much of the players, it is some of our own fans who have left me deflated.

What are we supposed to do, exactly? I don't 'hate' Gerrard or Hendo for going there, though Hendo is more puzzling for me and leaves a sour taste, feels like he's leaving because he's throwing a tantrum about game-time, whereas Milly knew his role and was professional always.

[Oscarmac]

I think we could explain to the those not clued in that a multi millionaire who chooses to go to Saudi for some more cash and is willing to ignore the beheading of a person who is gay is not a person worthy of the respect of Liverpool fans. Regardless of how good they were at football.

Of course I do not expect this to work with all our fans.

[disgraced cake]

What are we supposed to do, exactly? I don't 'hate' Gerrard or Hendo for going there, though Hendo is more puzzling for me and leaves a sour taste, feels like he's leaving because he's throwing a tantrum about game-time, whereas Milly knew his role and was professional always.

This is how I feel about it all. It does leave a sour taste and I have lost respect for them but I don't hate them and can't imagine 10/20/30 years down the line it'll help inform my memory/opinion of them. I'll just remember the football and know that they were a miniscule part of a project which will probably long have ended by then.

[BarryCrocker]

Heroes to Zeros.

[Elliemental]

With a few of our players/ex players going over to Saudi, is this the start of a push by Saudi to get Saudi money into our club?

Butter the fans up by using legends of the club to soften the view of them.

There will always be those against, but if it comes to a time when we are no longer competitive - could we become like Newcastle and start separating the art from the artist?

Getting Newcastle on board is a means to an end, getting LFC on board would be game-changing for the Saudi brand.

I'm probably thinking too much into it, but all of it doesn't sit right.

They've been raiding every successful European club though. It's not one team they're after, it's the whole sport.

[markmywords]

What saddens me most is the apathy of a lot of our fans. The idea of what it means to be a Liverpool fan seems to be fading for many. When Klopp was appointed we spoke of how he "got us". We like to think of ourselves as different, promoting social justice through food banks and working to make our world a fairer place for all. But many of our own fans just dont care, and don't want to have to face up to the reality of the real effects of sportwashing. I never expected much of the players, it is some of our own fans who have left me deflated.

I find the apathy of the fans troubling for different reasons, many on here are hypocritical IMO

if it's morally wrong for players to be taking the blood money as they don't need it and they should turn it down, then it's morally wrong for LFC to take the blood money, as we can also operate fine without it and don't need it.

Very little blame being attached to LFC from the same fans that I can see,  I would suggest it's partly as they would prefer we bank the blood money(for hendo and fab) for all it's worth , so we can better attack next season i.e. pure pragmatism as we are very motivated by our own aims, many probably a bit uneasy about where the money comes from, but we are more driven by a "need" for a potential 20th title or 7th CL.  All whilst slamming rich for selling out for even more money.

The timeline was interesting, slamming gerrard, bobby and fowler for being greedy and soulless and not displaying our values and a few hours later being angry when we can only get 12m for hendo from the same saudi executioners

[Yorkykopite]

if it's morally wrong for players to be taking the blood money as they don't need it and they should turn it down, then it's morally wrong for LFC to take the blood money, as we can also operate fine without it and don't need it.

Fundamentally disagree. It's the difference between an active engagement with evil and a passive one. And that difference is crucial.

[darragh85]

Stevie M. E

That monikor was so true in every sense, as a man and if we are honest a player as well. If there ever was a player bigger thsn the club it was him.

Ps you can get rid of that auto correct on it now

[rojo para la vida]

90% plus people moaning, would do the same as Gerrard in the highly unlikely circumstances that they were ever offered the riches on offer. No one will own up to it, because we're all holier than thou.
Judge the man in a decade. My guess is a lot of good will be done with that dirty money.

[Elliemental]

90% plus people moaning, would do the same as Gerrard in the highly unlikely circumstances that they were ever offered the riches on offer. No one will own up to it, because we're all holier than thou.
Judge the man in a decade. My guess is a lot of good will be done with that dirty money.

As I said in another thread: what good is that money to the likes of me, when the country offering it would have me killed? I know our moral stance makes certain people uncomfortable. But it's real and genuine (for many of us).


Personally, I'm not so bothered about Steven Gerrard. He, unlike certain others, never claimed to be an ally.

[Dim Glas]

90% plus people moaning, would do the same as Gerrard in the highly unlikely circumstances that they were ever offered the riches on offer. No one will own up to it, because we're all holier than thou.
Judge the man in a decade. My guess is a lot of good will be done with that dirty money.

People still using this as an argument to justify a millionaire many times over becoming a sportswasher, is as hysterical as it is mad!

As for your second point, what on earth makes you think a lot of ‘good will be done with that dirty money’, what even does this mean. He’s going to like give it all away or something? Right.