Topic: The Klopp Template

[lionel_messias]

Europa league would be a distraction next season unless we treat it as chance to test our youngsters. Klopp himself eluded to the positive impact it would have if we where not in EL next season. So there is potential a point this season where we have to decide whether we still want to push for fourth with the risk of ended fifth.

Yeah for sure, I mean we'd have to whisper it quietly because no LFC manager could ever weaken his team deliberately but there is a scenario where late on we'd be better off losing a couple of matches in a row and getting 8th than 5th.

[Suareznumber7]

It is us versus Leicester City for the last CL spot in my view. We'd have to win 6-7 in a row and they would have to falter. They have the slightly harder fixtures I've seen.

The ideal choice for us though is: Champions League or completely out of Europe! No one wants Europa Thursdays in the Ukraine, not even folk who live there.

I know I'm in the minority but if we don't get CL I'd much prefer being in Europa then no Europe.  I love watching the young kids and fringe players play in these games.

[redk84]

I know I'm in the minority but if we don't get CL I'd much prefer being in Europa then no Europe.  I love watching the young kids and fringe players play in these games.

Same. But also because I want us to win whatever we can get our hands on

I can see the arguments as to why it should be avoided - and no judgement on anyone who would like to avoid it.
I'd rather see the pros of it, such as playing fringe players as you mention and I know klopp would prioritise league anyway so much prefer us to qualify for a much as possible and win as much as possible

[MD1990]

it would the ideal year to be out of Europe.
Condensed season this year.

Then an expanded Euro's. Many players will be more knackered next season.

[klopptopia]

I know I'm in the minority but if we don't get CL I'd much prefer being in Europa then no Europe.  I love watching the young kids and fringe players play in these games.

I think there's an argument it would be beneficial for this team/squad to have those extra games. But then the boss did come out and say if we were not in europe the PL better watch out

[Geezer08]

Same. But also because I want us to win whatever we can get our hands on

I can see the arguments as to why it should be avoided - and no judgement on anyone who would like to avoid it.
I'd rather see the pros of it, such as playing fringe players as you mention and I know klopp would prioritise league anyway so much prefer us to qualify for a much as possible and win as much as possible

There will always be first team players involved in these games which present risk of injuries to key players. Jota is a unfortunately an example of this with the game against Midtjylland.

[Suareznumber7]

But then the boss did come out and say if we were not in europe the PL better watch out

Oh, you could definitely argue not playing in Europe would be huge for us in terms of the league next year.  Just imagine a slightly smaller squad, with 6-7 days of training in between every game, where we can have rested players and specific tactical plans for each opponent.  We would be scary to face in that scenario. 

[richmiller1]

Yet another match with no obvious attacking template to our game.

Is it really as simple as us carrying Mane and the knock on impacts of losing our center backs? Because it looks suspiciously like there is a more fundamental issue.

 It's difficult to see how we are setting out to attack of late, which isn't something we've ever been able to say before this season. Even in the darkest moments of Klopp's first season it was clear what he was looking for the team to do. Just doesn't seem so apparent anymore.

No doubt it will be fixed for next year but it is a little disconcerting. I've enjoyed us having a clear playing philosophy and being able to look on in pity at the likes of United who just lurch through games hoping for cards to fall in the right way.

[Knight]

I really don’t think there is no doubt. There’s plenty of doubt. Individuals are performing terribly and the system is failing.

[tubby]

Sit deep, crowd the middle, knock it long over our right fullback.  Congratulations, you have just picked up points against Liverpool.

[deFacto please, you bastards]

Doesn't matter what the system is, if the players aren't performing in their roles. Right now we have too many issues impacting our set up, from injuries to makeshift players to lack of form from others. All that together gives you a season like we have this year.

[Studgotelli]

Drives me up the wall seeing Robbo and Trent knocking the ball in the forwards general direction when they are under pressure. Every now and then is ok but it becomes too predictable. We need to raise the technical level of the team somehow without losing all of our directness & progress the ball through the lines to our forwards.

Madrid’s technical level compared to ours was night and day.

[CalgarianRed]

Injuries and too many players having an off season. Mane, TAA, Alisson, Gini have been average or poor this season. Only Salah and Jota have been up to it.

Hopefully next season will be better with players back (really need fully fit VVD and Henderson) and 3-4 new signings.

[Clint Eastwood]

Sit deep, crowd the middle, knock it long over our right fullback.  Congratulations, you have just picked up points against Liverpool.

Pretty much.

First half was a mess because they let our CBs try and play out while isolating Fabinho. Keita and Gini hid, Trent and Robbo pushed way up field.

Defensively I can’t forgive not pressing Kroos when we have a high line and slow defenders. The second goal especially, the front three and the midfield are static, waiting for him to play a pass. For something Klopp takes great pride in, our pressing was a joke and we looked like we couldn’t be arsed.

[Suareznumber7]

Pretty much.

First half was a mess because they let our CBs try and play out while isolating Fabinho. Keita and Gini hid, Trent and Robbo pushed way up field.

Of course they did.  Phillips and Kabak don't have anywhere near the passing range of VVD, Matip and even Gomez. 

[Haggis36]

Of course they did.  Phillips and Kabak don't have anywhere near the passing range of VVD, Matip and even Gomez.

You could argue that the ability of those three on the ball only papers over cracks in our midfield though. I mean think back to last season, I'd be willing to bet we scored far more goals from long balls from the CBs and FBs than we did from coherent midfield play. We typically bypass the midfield a lot and when that quality on the ball in defence is gone, either through availability (VVD, Gomez) or form (Robertson, Trent), it shows how limited our midfield can be at times. I think that's a big reason as to why we brought in Thiago, but it's not really clicked for any extended period of time and we probably need another of his quality to play a bit further up and link up with the forwards.

[HeartAndSoul]

Teams are just allowing our 2 fullbacks the most time on the ball and crowding out the rest. Do that and you’ve won the game. We’re not even trying anything to change that. Can anyone really remember the last time Robertson contributed anything offensively? It just feels way too easy to defend against us nowadays and even attack us. Lump the ball in behind our right back and you’re in time and again.

[WoodenHanger]

Love the guy. I'll never want him gone. But he's had a fucking nightmare there. His 2 big gambles didn't pay off.

1. Starting Keita cold and leaving Thiago out.

2. Playing 433 while leaving Firmino out.

We were fairly average against Arsenal until Jota came on, but the key was we had 4 attackers on the pitch.

The best attacking side we've ever seen under Klopp was when we had Coutinho with the front 3 and you got a glimpse against Arsenal what they could do.

Instead we went with this shite halfway house between 433 and a 4231 with Naby doing next to fuck all getting dragged. I think Klopp thought Naby could be the link from midfield to attack but he couldnt keep the ball. The damage was already done by that point.

The 433 worked well when we had Gomez, Van Dijk, Matip, Henderson, and a front 3 in form with fitness. That 433 system doesn't need binning. Just putting in a container until next season when we have the players to play it. Until then play 4231 because we have the players to play that system.

It makes us less relient on any 1 striker. Takes pressure off the fullbacks to be all of our attacking creativity. Gives Thiago better help. Puts even more protection in front of the back 2.

We simply do not have the bodies or the fitness, or the form to keep playing 433 but the manager keeps on playing and it's really fucking killing us. 

[Dave McCoy]

I’d say the biggest issue is that certain tactics that we’ve seen a lot seemed to just bamboozle the whole team and at this level its just really concerning.  The fitness levels may not return to pre-Covid levels for years based on the current international schedule.  We set out to press today and simply holding the ball and hitting it long made a mockery of all we planned.  We need to come up with a better plan.  Just asking the players to run more isn’t possible. 

As far as attacking, again they packed it in narrow and we just had nothing.  I don’t get it.  Hopefully on this end it was just a really bad day.

[Eeyore]

I’d say the biggest issue is that certain tactics that we’ve seen a lot seemed to just bamboozle the whole team and at this level its just really concerning.  The fitness levels may not return to pre-Covid levels for years based on the current international schedule.  We set out to press today and simply holding the ball and hitting it long made a mockery of all we planned.  We need to come up with a better plan.  Just asking the players to run more isn’t possible. 

As far as attacking, again they packed it in narrow and we just had nothing.  I don’t get it.  Hopefully on this end it was just a really bad day.

Wow are you really suggesting that Klopp's tactical approach amounts to asking his player to run more ?

[farawayred]

Wow are you really suggesting that Klopp's tactical approach amounts to asking his player to run more ?

"Run dem laps!"

[lionel_messias]

I think we have now reached the End of Klopp Version 1.0.

Now V1.0 won us the League, The Champions League and 97 points (was it) was good enough for another league title normally. So that's great, and all we dreamed of when Kloppo arrived.

But I think that engine is knackered after we have played a core number of players a lot and at high intensity. Now with 3 years left, Jurgen has to do a mini-rebuild and refit a new engine. Losing our 1st choice centre-halves has accelerated this but look there are issues in midfield and up front as well.

Without going into individual players, I think getting Thiago and Jota started this process but the work has to go on. If Klopp's Liverpool can't always be a pressing machine then we need more quality on the ball in midfield and some key areas where the squad players are not reliable enough have to be sorted.

Jurgen didn't really do this at Dortmund but he should have the resources to tweak his Liverpool side this summer. You could say it is a classic add centre-back, midfielder, striker situation but I'm sure Edwards and co have a more sophisticated plan ready.

Personally I'd love to see us shift to 4-2-3-1 as it allows us to use Fabinho and Thiago together in a '2' and then you look at creative solutions for a number 10 type, also the addition of a '1' striker moves us away from Firmino, as a false 9 as the player (wonderful as he has been) is now or nearly 30 years old.

You go into a season with Becker, Robertson, Virgil, X, Trent, Thiago, Fabinho, Hendo, Jota, Mane, Bobby, Salah...that's not too shabby, but also there plenty of work to do if we are going to mount a challenge worthy of getting above City again over 38 games.




X = Konate, Kabak, Gomez------->we hope.

[Asam]

I think we have now reached the End of Klopp Version 1.0.

Now V1.0 won us the League, The Champions League and 97 points (was it) was good enough for another league title normally. So that's great, and all we dreamed of when Kloppo arrived.

But I think that engine is knackered after we have played a core number of players a lot and at high intensity. Now with 3 years left, Jurgen has to do a mini-rebuild and refit a new engine. Losing our 1st choice centre-halves has accelerated this but look there are issues in midfield and up front as well.

Without going into individual players, I think getting Thiago and Jota started this process but the work has to go on. If Klopp's Liverpool can't always be a pressing machine then we need more quality on the ball in midfield and some key areas where the squad players are not reliable enough have to be sorted.

Jurgen didn't really do this at Dortmund but he should have the resources to tweak his Liverpool side this summer. You could say it is a classic add centre-back, midfielder, striker situation but I'm sure Edwards and co have a more sophisticated plan ready.

Personally I'd love to see us shift to 4-2-3-1 as it allows us to use Fabinho and Thiago together in a '2' and then you look at creative solutions for a number 10 type, also the addition of a '1' striker moves us away from Firmino, as a false 9 as the player (wonderful as he has been) is now or nearly 30 years old.

You go into a season with Becker, Robertson, Virgil, X, Trent, Thiago, Fabinho, Hendo, Jota, Mane, Bobby, Salah...that's not too shabby, but also there plenty of work to do if we are going to mount a challenge worthy of getting above City again over 38 games.




X = Konate, Kabak, Gomez------->we hope.

Personally I think the team is missing the intensity of pressing, we’ve added some very good players but teams don’t fear us, we’ve lost the intimidation factor, the whole thing about this team when we were on the way up was the relentlessness and now we seem more easy listening than heavy metal.

We lack craft / creativity in midfield and there isn’t anyone other than Jones who looks like scoring a goal, someone like Neuhaus would be a good addition

Konate at the prices mentioned is a no brained

We need another forward, someone like Thuram would be ideal

Kabak
Konate
Neuhaus
Thuram
Olise or Doku

Hopefully Harvey and a few of the other youngsters will also be ready to contribute

Sell:

Origi
Shaqiri
Keita
Matip
Phillips
Gini
Oxlade

[newterp]

I'm starting to believe that we do not a pretty significant refresh as well.

Need a back up RB (hoping Tsimikas can adapt next season for LB), another Midfielder (Jones should take a bigger role), at least 1 forward, 1 CB.


The sell list is accurate - but will be able to sell always injured Matip or Keita? Doubtful.

[Kennys from heaven]

Find it interesting that people have forgotten or don't even mention Grujic who I feel will be some player in a Klopp side and is already mention by Jurgen that he will be staying around.

Also Minamino will be back - that's one lad who's just not had a fair crack at the whip since being here and we can definitely afford to spend some time nurturing.

As for evolution, then that's exactly what it needs to be - I've already seen what carrying out wholesale swingeing changes does (Souey) so let's just not go down the mass exit stage again, shall we?

As much as I would love to see it happen, I feel that any talk of Mbappe or Haaland is literally pipe dreams, unless we are looking to offload one of the front three. In regards to the centre backs, I made the point in a previous post that Virg will need someone alongside him to do some dog work (Same could be said of Joe) and I repeat what I said in that I feel Nat being there to do that would be massively effective, sharing duties with Konate who does seem to be on paper a good fit for us.

Elliott will continue to be brought along - he's some talent is that lad - but the clamour for getting rid of Keita is not right to me. He is some player and yes, he had a shite game on Tuesday (who didn't) but if he is now fit, he needs to be in there as his dynacism will be hard to find elsewhere for sensible money anyway.

Shaq is another who invariably delivers when he plays/comes on, so why get rid unless he's totally set on leaving himself?

When talking of losing players however, formation(s) also need to be taken into consideration. Evoolution is not just about certain players, but how we play and what I feel Jurgen will do is to look at freshening this up with most of what we have already. There's been zero chance to do this with the injuries and stupid schedule, but with things easing and the ability for everyone to get together better (Euro's aside) to work on things, there is a strong case for more tolerance and patience rather than massive cuts. We're basing all our conjecture on what has been a surreal and completely ruined season which although inevitable, is done with none of the insight that Jurgen and the staff have.

With the odd exception of players who are out of contract or wanting to leave, then I would say that the time for heavier cuts is fully dependent on how we fare next season.

My one wish though and I'm not sure there would be many objections to this anyway, it would be to bring back Danny Ings. Never, ever been a fan of players returning, but this just makes so much sense, however, he would want (and who can blame him) to play most weeks so as strange as it sounds, we're not a good fit for him.

[Penfold78]

Whether VVD makes a full* recovery or not is a big, big question. RAWK seems unwilling to acknowledge the question exists let alone discuss the possible answers (understandable given the year we’ve had in and outside of football). But Klopp will have undoubtedly discussed this question as he will know that the next version of his template will be dependent on the outcome.

So much hinges on one knee.

* back to the player he once was, see Ox for similar case study.

[lionel_messias]

Whether VVD makes a full* recovery or not is a big, big question. RAWK seems unwilling to acknowledge the question exists let alone discuss the possible answers (understandable given the year we’ve had in and outside of football). But Klopp will have undoubtedly discussed this question as he will know that the next version of his template will be dependent on the outcome.

So much hinges on one knee.

* back to the player he once was, see Ox for similar case study.

You are so right, Penfold. And not just him, I've heard it said Joe Gomez has an injury that is very tricky to fully recover from, and it is his 3 or 4th serious injury at a young age.


Which is why I hope Liverpool go out and get permanent deals for Kabak and Konate and then you have FOUR strong options there, albeit with two recovering from injury. Matip, also but I would sell him if that is possible (it may not be this summer).

[diggerling!]

Whether VVD makes a full* recovery or not is a big, big question. RAWK seems unwilling to acknowledge the question exists let alone discuss the possible answers (understandable given the year we’ve had in and outside of football). But Klopp will have undoubtedly discussed this question as he will know that the next version of his template will be dependent on the outcome.

So much hinges on one knee.

* back to the player he once was, see Ox for similar case study.

In that case perhaps it would be wise to have a tactical rethink. At the moment we seem to playing the same way we were when Virgil and Joe(l) were in the team, but with defenders without the speed or ability to play that way.

[red1977]

I know there are games left and there is top four to play for but My mind is wandering to pre season. I think there is important work to do for Jurgen and his staff. My concern is the Euros are on. Not sure how much time the squad will be together over pre season?.

[killer-heels]

I know there are games left and there is top four to play for but My mind is wandering to pre season. I think there is important work to do for Jurgen and his staff. My concern is the Euros are on. Not sure how much time the squad will be together over pre season?.

Most of the players will be here. Virgil, Gomez, Milner, Ox, Matip, Mane, Salah, Keita etc. Could even be the likes of Trent and some new signings like Konate.

We cannot make an excuse over time, nor will anyone at the club. We have 1 game a week pretty much until the end of the season and there will be teams with more presence at the Euros than our lot.

[red1977]

Most of the players will be here. Virgil, Gomez, Milner, Ox, Matip, Mane, Salah, Keita etc. Could even be the likes of Trent and some new signings like Konate.

We cannot make an excuse over time, nor will anyone at the club. We have 1 game a week pretty much until the end of the season and there will be teams with more presence at the Euros than our lot.

Sure, not making excuses and fair point on a lot being here. I know Klopp and co will want to do a lot of work with the players, feels like an important pre season which will allow us to reset.

[gazzalfc]

I would be more concerned if we finish 5,6 or 7th

If a team inside the top 5 win the FA cup then the team in 6th gets a place in the Europa league

If Spurs beat City in the League cup final (and they do not finish 6th or above) then they are entered into the UEFA Europa Conference League (UECL) qualification which is basically the league below the Europa league.

If City beat Spurs (and a team inside the top 5 win the FA cup) then that place will go to the team that finish 7th

The UEFA Europa Conference League will be a fucking nightmare of a competition for us.

[Suareznumber7]

The UEFA Europa Conference League will be a fucking nightmare of a competition for us.

Nah, it'll be a great opportunity for us to give more match time to fringe and youth players as well as an opportunity to win another trophy.  Let's look at it as a positive rather than a negative. 

[RainbowFlick]

Nah, it'll be a great opportunity for us to give more match time to fringe and youth players as well as an opportunity to win another trophy.  Let's look at it as a positive rather than a negative.

Of all the 'top' teams we don't really have a particularly good set of fringe/youth players nor does the depth really run that far. Especially when you assume the current 'cover' (Shaq, Origi, Ox etc) might be soon to go.

It's unnecessary fixtures when really all we really want is to qualify for the CL as a minimum.

[bornandbRED]

You could say we’ve strayed far from the fundamentals which made us successful. Power and intensity in midfield, incision and speed up top, dangerous from set pieces, to now playing a kind of tepid possession football which teams are happy to allow us to do for 90 mins as it will not hurt them at all.

Do the personnel in midfield fit? Keita is an enigma, Thiago isn't an intense footballer, nor is Jones - Milner is 35. That we brought a 35 year old Milner into CM to bring intensity says a lot. Obviously exacerbated by the fall off of the likes of Firmino and Mane but the contents of this squad is pretty far removed from what you’d expect from a Jurgen Klopp side.

It’s going to be an interesting summer...

[harleydanger]

Power and intensity in midfield, incision and speed up top,

Is completely negated by sitting 10 men behind the ball and knocking it long over Trent's head.

The big difference being it's not Virg and Gomez cleaning up behind Trent and playing a 40 yarder to a motoring Salah instantly, that's the actual difference, and why we look so tepid. 

[BobPaisley3]

You could say we’ve strayed far from the fundamentals which made us successful. Power and intensity in midfield, incision and speed up top, dangerous from set pieces, to now playing a kind of tepid possession football which teams are happy to allow us to do for 90 mins as it will not hurt them at all.

Do the personnel in midfield fit? Keita is an enigma, Thiago isn't an intense footballer, nor is Jones - Milner is 35. That we brought a 35 year old Milner into CM to bring intensity says a lot. Obviously exacerbated by the fall off of the likes of Firmino and Mane but the contents of this squad is pretty far removed from what you’d expect from a Jurgen Klopp side.

It’s going to be an interesting summer...

This is generally my feeling and my worry is that in a year/18 months, we’ll have a squad which is anti Klopp unless we address 3 or 4 of its parts. You can imagine Jose Mourinho rubbing his hands at the thought of taking over a side with most of their better players in their late 20/early 30s. He’d thrash them for a couple of years and then piss off, but you’re right, that’s not what Jurgen is about. Really important, and I’m sure it is happening, that we’ve got players lined up for the next two or three windows who match the Jota age profile, 23-26 which will give Jurgen a chance to create his next side. The Konate noises suggest this is happening, ideally more to come.

[jepovic]

You could say we’ve strayed far from the fundamentals which made us successful. Power and intensity in midfield, incision and speed up top, dangerous from set pieces, to now playing a kind of tepid possession football which teams are happy to allow us to do for 90 mins as it will not hurt them at all.

Do the personnel in midfield fit? Keita is an enigma, Thiago isn't an intense footballer, nor is Jones - Milner is 35. That we brought a 35 year old Milner into CM to bring intensity says a lot. Obviously exacerbated by the fall off of the likes of Firmino and Mane but the contents of this squad is pretty far removed from what you’d expect from a Jurgen Klopp side.

It’s going to be an interesting summer...

I think the main issue is that we just haven't been succesful with our midfield recruitments. AOC and Keita have been injured half the time, and they haven't been very good when fit either (aside from short spells). Overall, their contributions have been marginal. Shaq is ok for the price, but not a bargain like Robertson either. Thiago looks good, but he hasn't provided us with any more goals and assists than Henderson and Gini. The exception is Fabinho, who is a fantastic player.  Fabinho is the only midfielder we have signed in the last few years that has really elevated the team. In attack and defense, we've had much higher success rate - most recently demonstrated by Jota.

[Knight]

The ‘Klopp template’ of heavy metal football doesn’t work when teams concede territory and possession and sit in a low block and focus on denying our creativity from fullbacks. We’ve rightly sought to add more strings to our bow in midfield with Thiago, the idea was definitely right. Last season set pieces and Mane brilliance (who scored vital vital goals in the autumn) were huge in getting past teams as well as managing game state brilliantly.

[El Lobo]

We've not played 'heavy metal football' since 2018