Topic: 2018 Formula 1 Thread

[paulrazor]

I’m with Hellrazor on this one.

he had to be taking the piss or else he is mourinho

[CornerFlag]

Didn't mind the race, interesting bits were far and few between but of them I thought Perez got a wrist-slap for his incidents, thought he was more at fault for the first and as for the second I wouldn't have been surprised if he'd have been black-flagged for intentionally driving into someone.  A drive-through was pretty easy on him, should have been at least a ten-second stop-go.

[TepidT2O]

Interesting the read Whitings thoughts on the blue flag incident.

He said it was one of the worst cases he’d seen.  It seems the rule they are told is that if you are in a battle and you get blue flagged, you have to give that battle up to let the faster man through..

So grosjean broke Charlie’s primary rule...

[CraigDS]

Stupid rule in that case. If they are racing, all be it for a middle of the pack position, then they shouldn’t give a shit about anyone else.

This isn’t a formula just for the front few cars, it’s for all 20 or so cars on the grid.

[mc_red22]

Didn't mind the race, interesting bits were far and few between but of them I thought Perez got a wrist-slap for his incidents, thought he was more at fault for the first and as for the second I wouldn't have been surprised if he'd have been black-flagged for intentionally driving into someone.  A drive-through was pretty easy on him, should have been at least a ten-second stop-go.

There's no chance he would have been DQ'd, unfortunately, the precedent was set last year when Vettel avoided such a penalty. He did however, receive a 10 second stop-go penalty. Perhaps Perez had no scheduled stops after they had finished reviewing he incident and he was also pretty much right at the back of the grid.

[Darren G]

It’s like anything really isn’t it, you can only beat what’s in front of you. There’s only two people who have won more world titles than Hamilton or Vettel, after this season there’ll only be one for one of them. Hamilton has more pole positions than anyone in history. I don’t necessarily think it’s a better or worse era but you can’t really downplay the achievements and where that puts them all time.

 Not to downplay Lewis achievements, because he absolutely deserves to be considered one of the best ever at this point in time, but stats such as the most poles ever are subject to so many variables that it somewhat dilutes their worth as outright benchmarks of talent.  As an example, when Lewis equaled Senna's pole record it was rarely noted that it took Lewis 50 more races than Ayrton to achieve it or that overall he had better cars.  Gilles Villeneuve only ever won 6 races as opposed to Jacques, who won 11 races and a WDC and yet nobody who knows anything about motorsport considers the son anywhere near as talented as the father. 

 As for your remark about Alonso being outperformed by Lewis in his rookie season, it didn't help Fernando any that his own team was against him.  I recall Ron Dennis' quote one weekend of "we were racing Fernando" to explain a strategy call.  So again, context is important. 

 

He did, but if anything Hamilton being thrown into a world championship contending McLaren, alongside reigning champion Alonso should only be looked at as more evidence to his talent, never to try and lessen his achievements in the sport. He didnt start out at the lower end because he was always too good to do that...

 ...as opposed to Senna for example, who had to wait until his 5th year in the sport to be given a potentially championship winning car?

 For me personally, there's absolutely no question that Lewis should be considered one of the greatest drivers in the sport's history.  In my opinion though, both Schumacher and Senna were better in their primes. 

 

[El Lobo]

Not to downplay Lewis achievements....

 

[Beav]

 
 ...as opposed to Senna for example, who had to wait until his 5th year in the sport to be given a potentially championship winning car?

 

Isnt that a dumb thing though, that they clearly all learnt from with talented drivers getting more shots in better teams now?

The idea that drivers have to spend a few years in backfield teams or their achievements arent as "worthy" somehow is so strange to me, given the pressures of just driving in the sport, let alone being asked to immediately challenge for wins from your first race.

As for Alonso and Hamilton, yeah they were racing each other, I dont think they favored either driver which is what ultimately cost them a drivers title, the only difference is Lewis was fine with equal treatment but Alonso was there on the understanding he would be favored and was angry when that didnt turn out to be the case.

[Darren G]

Isnt that a dumb thing though, that they clearly all learnt from with talented drivers getting more shots in better teams now?

The idea that drivers have to spend a few years in backfield teams or their achievements arent as "worthy" somehow is so strange to me, given the pressures of just driving in the sport, let alone being asked to immediately challenge for wins from your first race.

As for Alonso and Hamilton, yeah they were racing each other, I dont think they favored either driver which is what ultimately cost them a drivers title, the only difference is Lewis was fine with equal treatment but Alonso was there on the understanding he would be favored and was angry when that didnt turn out to be the case.

 No, I don't think that it's a dumb thing as there have been drivers who have done really well in lower series and come into formula one and been total gash *cough* Lance Stroll *cough*.  I didn't say that Lewis achievements were any less worthy for starting his career in a championship capable car.  I was merely pointing out that some of the best drivers in history have started out down the grid given your statement that Lewis was 'too good to do that'.

 Mclaren not favouring either driver?  "WE were racing Fernando" sound neutral to you?  C'mon man, the FIA actually appointed a scrutineer to ensure that Fernando got equal treatment at Interlagos after various irregularities had surfaced over the previous races with tyre pressures and the like. 

[Beav]

No, I don't think that it's a dumb thing as there have been drivers who have done really well in lower series and come into formula one and been total gash *cough* Lance Stroll *cough*.  I didn't say that Lewis achievements were any less worthy for starting his career in a championship capable car.  I was merely pointing out that some of the best drivers in history have started out down the grid given your statement that Lewis was 'too good to do that'.

 Mclaren not favouring either driver?  "WE were racing Fernando" sound neutral to you?  C'mon man, the FIA actually appointed a scrutineer to ensure that Fernando got equal treatment at Interlagos after various irregularities had surfaced over the previous races with tyre pressures and the like. 

Yeah I didnt mean he was too good and Senna wasnt, like he was above all that, just that McLaren knew there was no point wasting a generational talent they'd spent millions on nurturing since karting in a midfield team.

Teams talk like that all the time, "we were racing Fernando" because within the team there are effectively two separate groups, Lewis' side and Fernando's side, and they were both competing for the title. Yeah, they appointed a scrutineer, because Alonso was kicking off and complained to the Spanish motorsport board because he couldnt explain some upstart beating him, he was smashing doors and helmets all over the shop. He was still outqualified by Hamilton if I remember rightly.

[Enders]

Let's not ignore that being a promising driver and working your way up in previous eras was radically different to anything this century.

Lewis was a McLaren protege with his career mapped out in front of him if he performed, whereas Senna didn't have that 'luxury' and had to work his way up through the grid.

They are both all time greats, regardless.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

Let's not ignore that being a promising driver and working your way up in previous eras was radically different to anything this century.

Lewis was a McLaren protege with his career mapped out in front of him if he performed, whereas Senna didn't have that 'luxury' and had to work his way up through the grid.

They are both all time greats, regardless.

Senna's family were minted,he got his opportunity because of that wealth.

[Darren G]

Yeah I didnt mean he was too good and Senna wasnt, like he was above all that, just that McLaren knew there was no point wasting a generational talent they'd spent millions on nurturing since karting in a midfield team.

Teams talk like that all the time, "we were racing Fernando" because within the team there are effectively two separate groups, Lewis' side and Fernando's side, and they were both competing for the title. Yeah, they appointed a scrutineer, because Alonso was kicking off and complained to the Spanish motorsport board because he couldnt explain some upstart beating him, he was smashing doors and helmets all over the shop. He was still outqualified by Hamilton if I remember rightly.

 O.K, I see your point.  Thanks for clarifying your position.

 There was a lot more to the Alonso situation than you're suggesting though and he was smashing doors and helmets largely due to the fact that he percieved that he was getting fucked by the team, being deliberately given the wrong tyre pressures for qualifying etc.  On equal footing and with equal cars I think that the Lewis Hamilton that we've seen this year beats anyone on the grid, including Alonso.  I don't think that 2007 was an equal footing situation though and as impressive as Hamilton was that season, I personally feel that other factors played a significant part.

 On that note, I've never heard a team principle saying "we were racing..." when referring to another driver from the same team before, so I disagree with your point there.  I realise that there are - as you say - two sides of the garage, but to hear that from a team principle in the penultimate race of the season, when both drivers are on the verge of the title?  It's clearly not coming from a place of neutrality when Ron is saying that they ("we") were trying to beat the other driver in the team given the championship situation at that point.  And if the team principle is in the group on Lewis side, well...

Either way, nice to have a sensible debate rather than an emoticon being the sole counterpoint to a statement. 

Senna's family were minted,he got his opportunity because of that wealth.

 not true.

[CornerFlag]

There's no chance he would have been DQ'd, unfortunately, the precedent was set last year when Vettel avoided such a penalty. He did however, receive a 10 second stop-go penalty. Perhaps Perez had no scheduled stops after they had finished reviewing he incident and he was also pretty much right at the back of the grid.

A stop-go would have forced him into the pits regardless of whether he was due to pit again, as in a drive-through where he had to stop for ten seconds as well.  I think, short of a DQ, it's the biggest punishment they can give out.

[jillcwhomever]

Senna's family were minted,he got his opportunity because of that wealth.

Not true, his family were well off but he came to England and worked his way up into Formula One via the junior motor racing competitions. He did a season against Brundle in the Formula Three series. Saying he only got his chance through wealth is bollocks.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

Not true, his family were well off but he came to England and worked his way up into Formula One via the junior motor racing competitions. He did a season against Brundle in the Formula Ford series. Saying he only got his chance through wealth is bollocks.

It's not bollocks,had he not been from an extremely wealthy family he wouldn't have been able to come to England and then pay £10,000 for a seat in the formula ford series.

I am not trying to disparage his achievements or his incredible talent but his wealth gave him that opportunity and to argue differently is disingenuous at best.

[paulrazor]

can argue who was better til the cows come home

both phenomenal drivers from different eras

lewis has pretty much always had a top car but why not, he has been good enough, makes no difference that he didnt cut his teeth in a toro rosso, he has always deserved to be in a top car

others take different paths to the top and have to work their way up in formula 1, Vettel and Alonso for instance, though sadly Alonso practically went full circle and is now back with a weak team

[Beav]

O.K, I see your point.  Thanks for clarifying your position.

 There was a lot more to the Alonso situation than you're suggesting though and he was smashing doors and helmets largely due to the fact that he percieved that he was getting fucked by the team, being deliberately given the wrong tyre pressures for qualifying etc.  On equal footing and with equal cars I think that the Lewis Hamilton that we've seen this year beats anyone on the grid, including Alonso.  I don't think that 2007 was an equal footing situation though and as impressive as Hamilton was that season, I personally feel that other factors played a significant part.

 On that note, I've never heard a team principle saying "we were racing..." when referring to another driver from the same team before, so I disagree with your point there.  I realise that there are - as you say - two sides of the garage, but to hear that from a team principle in the penultimate race of the season, when both drivers are on the verge of the title?  It's clearly not coming from a place of neutrality when Ron is saying that they ("we") were trying to beat the other driver in the team given the championship situation at that point.  And if the team principle is in the group on Lewis side, well...

Either way, nice to have a sensible debate rather than an emoticon being the sole counterpoint to a statement. 

I agree thats how he felt, but just because he believed it doesnt mean they were doing any of that, I think the tyre pressure thing and the gaps he would sometimes have to Hamilton were explained by Ron at the time, I genuinely think it was just a case of him struggling to get to grips with the car as it didnt suit him as much as it did Lewis, the Bridgestone tyres were apparently a lot different to the Michellins he had been racing on at Renault, and I think the cars balance naturally suited Lewis' more aggressive driving style he had then, and Fernandos frustration boiled over into it being a conspiracy against him. Because lets be realistic, you don't work out a big money deal, spend millions of pounds getting in the current double world champion to your team, to then deliberately fuck him over in the middle of a championship you are winning.

[Qston]

Not true, his family were well off but he came to England and worked his way up into Formula One via the junior motor racing competitions. He did a season against Brundle in the Formula Three series. Saying he only got his chance through wealth is bollocks.

......and lived in a caravan outside someones house. Hardly the life of luxury although he did get a chance to even drive carts etc due to his family having some money.

Debates about who was the best, is the best, and the greatest etc etc will go on until the end of time. It's very much a personal thing. No doubt there will be incredible drivers in the years to come, but in my view of the current generation of drivers (so the last 10 years or so) then Hamilton's record is as good as anyone and his outright speed probably the best there is. I have a huge soft spot for Alonso, and believe his talent was let down by poor career choices, but there is little argument against Hamilton. In history I would say Senna but then I never saw Fangio, Moss or Stewart drive (amongs many others such as Graham Hill and only caught the tale end of the likes of Lauda's career). In my lifetime Senna was simply a cut above any driver I have seen bar none and that isn`t some misty eyed analysis because of what happened, but just watching him when I was growing up and looking at his record when comparing him with other drivers using the same metrics such as races won in the numbers of starts, pole positions using the same calculation and generally the way he took the piss out of many team mates with the same equipment (Prost for example). I suppose we should also remember that current drivers have to think about so much more when driving as well - look at the sheer number of options they have on their steering wheels that they have to consider, control and apply at the right times. In the past you just got in the car and drove the thing with having tyre wear and fuel in the back of your mind.

I remember reading so many times, hearing so many times and seeing so many times top drivers and experts saying that a true test of outright ability is when it pisses it down and Hamilton, Alonso, Senna, Schumacher and the like were and are imperious when the heavens open. The likes of Vettel don`t, in my view, come into that debate. Verstappen has shown glimpses of it and Button at times was magical in the wet.

Turned into a longer post than I intended but just summing up my feelings on some of the debates over the past few days.

[Darren G]

I agree thats how he felt, but just because he believed it doesnt mean they were doing any of that, I think the tyre pressure thing and the gaps he would sometimes have to Hamilton were explained by Ron at the time, I genuinely think it was just a case of him struggling to get to grips with the car as it didnt suit him as much as it did Lewis, the Bridgestone tyres were apparently a lot different to the Michellins he had been racing on at Renault, and I think the cars balance naturally suited Lewis' more aggressive driving style he had then, and Fernandos frustration boiled over into it being a conspiracy against him. Because lets be realistic, you don't work out a big money deal, spend millions of pounds getting in the current double world champion to your team, to then deliberately fuck him over in the middle of a championship you are winning.

 We'll never know just how much of it was in Fernando's head or exactly what was going on behind the scenes.  I don't believe that Mclaren set out to 'fuck Fernando over', but do feel that Lewis was getting favoured.  Two different things.  Personally, I was going for Kimi that year, so the rivalry at Mclaren worked itself out perfectly as far as I'm concerned.   

[Graeme]

From Jolyon Palmer's column on BBC Sport...

Raikkonen will be 41 by the time his two-year contract at Sauber expires, and with drivers' careers extending ever further it makes it that much harder for new talent to make the grid.

No Jolyon, a wave of shit drivers waving Daddy's cheque book around makes it harder for new talent to make the grid.

[paulrazor]

From Jolyon Palmer's column on BBC Sport...

No Jolyon, a wave of shit drivers waving Daddy's cheque book around makes it harder for new talent to make the grid.

I've no problem.with older drivers once they are doing the business like Kimi. Jolyons no loss to F1

Only drivers this year and next year unlucky to be out of F1 in my opinion are wehrlein and ocon if it happens

Especially when you have plodders like stroll and sirotkin. Don't rate either

[west_london_red]

I've no problem.with older drivers once they are doing the business like Kimi. Jolyons no loss to F1

Only drivers this year and next year unlucky to be out of F1 in my opinion are wehrlein and ocon if it happens

Especially when you have plodders like stroll and sirotkin. Don't rate either

Agree with that, but at the same time it’s going to be a shame watching Kimi floating around in the midfield at best.

The fact Stroll and Sirotkin will still be in F1 while Ocon especially won’t be, is a damning indictment of the sport both in terms of their ability and the fact that a once great team like Williams is in the position where it has to ‘employ’ such drivers due to financial situation.

[paulrazor]

Yeah I thought Kimi would pack in if Ferrari didn't keep him

[jackh]

Agree with that, but at the same time it’s going to be a shame watching Kimi floating around in the midfield at best.

Yeah I thought Kimi would pack in if Ferrari didn't keep him

I'm actually quite looking forward to it.  I don't really think that Kimi's ever going to be the kind of guy who pressure weighs heavy on, but he does seem to have had some struggles in qualifying recently and - though I've always thought of him as a hard & fair racer - there've not been many occasions when he's really been in a good battle during his second stint with Ferrari.  I suspect he might just relish the chance to get amongst it in the midfield - at least as much as Kimi seems to relish anything

A month or so back I suggested that he could be an option for Red Bull for similar reasons - interpreted the response I got as laughter at the idea of Kimi wanting to sticking around in anything if not a Ferrari, but I think he could be quite entertaining mixing it in the Sauber.

Their other options are Gasly - who has shown promise but it's probably to soon for him - or perhaps an outlandish bid to liberate Kimi and give him a year or two free from diligent obedience at Ferrari.

 

[WhereAngelsPlay]

Personally chuffed to bits that he is staying,he is the only driver I give a flying f about & the only one where when he does well I am genuinely happy for him.

F1 needs characters and at the moment he is the only one in the sport.

[paulrazor]

I'm actually quite looking forward to it.  I don't really think that Kimi's ever going to be the kind of guy who pressure weighs heavy on, but he does seem to have had some struggles in qualifying recently and - though I've always thought of him as a hard & fair racer - there've not been many occasions when he's really been in a good battle during his second stint with Ferrari.  I suspect he might just relish the chance to get amongst it in the midfield - at least as much as Kimi seems to relish anything

A month or so back I suggested that he could be an option for Red Bull for similar reasons - interpreted the response I got as laughter at the idea of Kimi wanting to sticking around in anything if not a Ferrari, but I think he could be quite entertaining mixing it in the Sauber.

 

Quali he hasnt been too bad, sure he was on pole at Monza

he was superb in 2013 for Lotus but i think he left himself too much to do from qualifying badly, not the case anymore, his weak point now for me is starts. He hasnt gained a place on the opening lap for two years!

[Beav]

F1 needs characters and at the moment he is the only one in the sport.

I agree, Hamilton is far too bland..

[west_london_red]

I'm actually quite looking forward to it.  I don't really think that Kimi's ever going to be the kind of guy who pressure weighs heavy on, but he does seem to have had some struggles in qualifying recently and - though I've always thought of him as a hard & fair racer - there've not been many occasions when he's really been in a good battle during his second stint with Ferrari.  I suspect he might just relish the chance to get amongst it in the midfield - at least as much as Kimi seems to relish anything

A month or so back I suggested that he could be an option for Red Bull for similar reasons - interpreted the response I got as laughter at the idea of Kimi wanting to sticking around in anything if not a Ferrari, but I think he could be quite entertaining mixing it in the Sauber.

 

Red Bull have had a history of choosing youth and using their junior drivers through to the F1 team and have the advantage of having Torro Rosso to give drivers a try before they go to the main team so I can’t see them ever going for the likes of Kimi. They had David Coulthard when they first came in to the sport I think but was probably because they were a new team and needed an experienced driver.

[CraigDS]

F1 needs characters and at the moment he is the only one in the sport.

Not sure I'd describe him as a character beyond the odd icy comment.

[Tesco tearaway]

F1 needs characters and at the moment he is the only one in the sport.

What about Max?
I find him very entertaining 

[Antics]

Yeah, I think between Hamilton, Vettel, Max, Ricciardo you’ve got some pretty disparate personalities.

Maybe it’s because I didn’t really start watching f1 until after Kimi’s pomp (which I’m told was 2005) I never really got his schtick, always felt like a bit of a sideshow.

[paulrazor]

circuit with very low degradation

interestingly the latest spec renault engine was used in singapore but not by renault themselves, red bull going back to older spec for Russia

Also Antonio Giovanazzi will race alongside Kimi for Sauber

Ericsson down to third driver, i know he is a pay driver but he is decent

[CraigDS]

Never really rated Ericsson, so no big miss. Is Giovanazzi a Ferrari backed driver?

[paulrazor]

Never really rated Ericsson, so no big miss. Is Giovanazzi a Ferrari backed driver?

afaik he is

he got a couple of races either last year or the year before because Pascal Wehrlein was injured

[Darren G]

Never really rated Ericsson, so no big miss. Is Giovanazzi a Ferrari backed driver?

Erm...you mean this guy?   



 He's been doing their simulator work and also some testing for a while now.

[CraigDS]

Erm...you mean this guy?   

 He's been doing their simulator work and also some testing for a while now.

 

No I knew he'd worked for Ferrari, but wasn't sure if he was backed by them, i.e. they've pushed for him getting a seat there.

[Darren G]

No I knew he'd worked for Ferrari, but wasn't sure if he was backed by them, i.e. they've pushed for him getting a seat there.

Ah, I see.  I'll have another go then. 

 From what I read, they (Ferrari) initially wanted to keep him because he was doing a brilliant job with the simulator work, with his feedback being instrumental in developing the car.   Nonetheless, yeah, Ferrari are heavily involved in the deal as they have the right to choose one of Sauber's drivers due to the Alfa Romeo angle.  From what I understand (sound like a fucking Mirror journalist now) he'd still remain on Ferrari's books.

[Beav]

Giovanazzi is a really exciting racer, glad his Ferrari backing allowed him to get a shot at Alfa-Sauber like it did Leclerc. Should be a really fun pairing alongside Kimi next season.

[Darren G]

So lads, how does everybody feel about Kvyat returning to Toro Rosso for 2019?  (other than "meh"  ).