Author Topic: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!  (Read 144836 times)

Offline Fitzy.

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The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« on: December 28, 2023, 08:35:01 am »
“I’m not an “agendas” guy but that gets me thinking…”

This is an immediate response of the late Crystal Palace penalty by a Man City fan on BlueMoon two weeks ago. Rather than acknowledging the blatant fact that Foden had obviously mistimed a clearance and caught the Palace striker, the fan quickly assumed that the referee’s decision was down to an apparent dark, sinister influence that led to the dramatic intervention. In short…it’s just plain and simple corruption and it’s there for all to see. The conspiracy is in the works. The fix is in.

We all see it. Nothing could be clearer.

Apart from the fact that it really probably isn’t.

Similarly but also very differently, the Everton fans cried foul a few weeks ago following their 10-point reduction due to ongoing financial missteps over a period of time. More corruption at play. They all held up pinky-reddish cards to add weight to their cause. It was more agendas working hard to kill off a football club.

Closer to home, Luis Diaz’s wrongly disallowed goal against Spurs in September was hard to take. Galling in fact. The first defeat in months for Liverpool down to a terrible mess caused by the nonsense of VAR and the hubris of self-satisfied officials. Despite an immediate acknowledgment from the PGMOL that they’d messed up, the noise from Liverpool fans was dominated by a single word: “corruption”.

The three examples are quite dissimilar in how they came about, but the common thread that runs through them is that football fans of different colours are absolutely convinced that a hidden force is working against their club’s interests and it’s there for all to see. Nothing could be more obvious.

After Burnley away on Boxing Day, we return to the theme that the refs are against us due to two controversial disallowed goals.

Big Six©️bias, London bias, Greater Manchester bias, pro-UAE bias, Red Shite bias…take your pick. My club is persecuted and I have the receipts to prove it!

Create your narrative and your version of events will fall neatly into place. Corruption is everywhere, by all accounts, and your team is suffering as a result. As a fan, you’re the victim. By chance, you happen to support the football club that the sinister forces that control football have decided to destroy. It sucks but you have to suck it up.

Or is it that simple?

Is the immediate jump towards accusations of corruption and malfeasance the most intelligent interpretation of events? Is there a chance it’s more emotional than logical? Are fans…possibly…completely unreasonable when it comes to accepting disappointment? Injustice certainly happens on the football pitch, but is it deliberate or just plain human error?

Maybe…just maybe…fans are just completely daft. Maybe grown men will argue anything to explain away their team’s performance. Maybe grown men never really grow up and, over time, become experts at finding reasons why their team has lost. Accusations of cheating is the easiest. It’s the low hanging fruit we need. We’re not over-burdened with a requirement for lots of proof. Our indignation is enough. Our sanctimony will offer the evidence to show that our team is hard done by. We tally-up the incidents that were unfair as our proof. We can ignore the fortunate and favourably decisions that go our way as they only exist to offer a slight counter-balance to the appalling corruption at play.

Obviously this is all complete lunacy. We’ve arrived at a point where the post-match space is now completely dominated with this type of noise. Forums, twitter and well-edited compilations all serve to cultivate a false reality that genuinely convinces fans that there’s more than meets the eye.

Logically, most of this stuff is pure nonsense. Conspiracy and corruption takes place in back rooms, with cynical actors working to manipulate events in their favour. But fans don’t preoccupy themselves with the really sinister parts of football - the governance of the world game protecting corporate interests while facilitating sports washing on an industrial scale. Instead, fans become obsessed with local tribalism and become convinced that the game is controlled in such a way to help their rival and hurt their own team.

It’s simplistic rubbish and actually distracts from the genuinely worrying aspects of administration and the obvious direction of travel around player ownership and club acquisition. Obsessing over who Michael Oliver supports is genuinely small potatoes when it comes to things we should be worried about. Yet, this is food and drink for football fans across the board.

I think refereeing is in bother. I think the way the laws are administered, via VAR, have created a neurosis in the minds of referees to the extent that most of them appear lost and rudderless and scared of the repercussions. Second guessing themselves and ballsing up on a weekly basis.

Maybe we should grow up a bit. Defeat is part of sport. It’s not always about you and your team - Liverpool will win this league if they’re good enough. That’s it.

Offline Zlen

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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #1 on: December 28, 2023, 08:51:00 am »
Liverpool were good enough to win it - yet they didn’t because of referee decisions. Twice.

Is it corruption, mafia style one? Hardly. But is it corrupted at its core by maintaining poor standards, not honestly reflecting on mistakes, not pointing out and polishing biases? Most certainly it is.

So we continue spinning on this designed merry-go-round of artificially created controversy and to our own detriment - because as you pointed out nicely, bigger fish is being fried without our consent or input. Yet it could all be resolved with institutional focus on collaborative, transparent, rules-focussed framework in which referees would operate. Even the VAR would not be an issue then. Instead we are gaslighted, actors are protected internally from blowback and completely insulated from external questioning and reviews. Obviously this kind of structure can only breed what we are witnessing today.

Offline liversaint

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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #2 on: December 28, 2023, 09:04:01 am »
Very well thought out and reasoned Fitzy. I think the main problem now is that there is a definite and repeated issue with certain officials and the total lack of consistency in the application of VAR and general standards of refereeing. The VVD and Curtis red cards being 2 examples, plus the city penalty last night vs the Odegaard non penalty on Sunday. It’s also noticeable that the corruption line is more prevelant online than actually at the game, other than the obvious chants at certain refs.

I do wonder what psychological tests refs undergo, particularly in relation to unconscious bias and handling player pressure.

Unfortunately, VAR has been badly implemented and has caused bigger issues than is acceptable in so many ways, not least because there is no recourse for teams affected wrongly and no real accountability for those making bad errors and decisions.
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There is another option. Mr Ferguson organises the fixtures in his office and sends it to us and everyone will know and cannot complain. That is simple.

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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #3 on: December 28, 2023, 09:21:04 am »
Of course we are all, as supporters of different clubs, going to see perceived bias, but when the likes of Paul Tomkins takes time to analyse things and can prove we get dealt it worse, then you have to wonder.

Tierney - always seemed to have an issue with LFC, now hates Klopp and you can see this in his refereeing.

The linesman who elbowed Robbo in the face gets off scot free

The monumental fuck up at Spurs and the generally dodgy officiating all game,  involving 3 officials who had just come back from an all expenses paid trip to referee in Abu Dhabi - Hooper has since shown a bias towards Spurs in another game

Taylor - From heavily Utd supporting area Wythenshawe, Manc family, does enough to disrupt our play in games

Kavanagh - From Ashton U Lyne - I've been told with 95% certainty he's a Utd fan. Denies Everton a stonewall penalty v City the season we lose the league by 1 pt

Oliver - Newcastle supporter

Coote - doesn't give us a blatant handball v Arsenal, gives City a very questionable one last night

It might not be brown envelopes, but there will be and there is personal biases that manifest when they referee us.
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Offline Egyptian36

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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #4 on: December 28, 2023, 09:27:17 am »

Fans are the same everywhere. They will ask for the manager sacking, blame players or referees, have crazy theories. It's normal.

What matters :

Is the standard of refereeing acceptable? No and for or a very long time.
Even with the help of video replies its very bad. This is not a fan opinion it's a fact based how many times the PGMOL had no choice but to apologize for the crazy decisions that happened.

What steps were taken to improve this ? Nothing.
The bad referees get promoted and become in-charge after they retire. It won't be surprising to see Paul Tierney becomes PGMOL’s first chief refereeing officer later on.



The PGMOl should be called out until things change. It's that simple.
Terrible organization that should be disassembled. Fk them and Fk everyone who is trying to defend them and make it about fans being emotional.





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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #6 on: December 28, 2023, 09:39:01 am »
I believe it's the most corrupt league in the history of the sport.

Bizarre that it's dismissed with what we witness on a weekly basis.

2 penalties in our last 2 games before Burnley we've not had awarded both for handball.
Abu Dhabi get a penalty awarded for what we've been told all season isn't a penalty.
There's a 6 point swing in their favour.

But yes, if Liverpool are good enough  ::)
« Last Edit: December 28, 2023, 09:42:06 am by Barneys Night Before Christmas »
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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #7 on: December 28, 2023, 09:46:36 am »
I dont think its a massive conspiracy with the saudis pulling strings.

I just think PGMOL consists of a group of mancs that are friends. They hate Liverpool, the city and the teams, and they protect their privileges rather than promote competent refs.

Its an objective fact that a huge part of the refs are from the Manchester area, in particular among the most senior ones and their boss. https://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/t3ono4/map_of_premier_league_referees_place_of_birth/

This is how corruption looks like in society, in my experience from other parts of life. Its not a mafia that decides to be criminal, but a group of like minded men that bend the rules and become blind to what is right

Offline Kuytinho

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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #8 on: December 28, 2023, 09:50:35 am »
I get the point of the post, but even considering that every fan feels hard done by and validates their feelings with confirmation bias, the recent past feels a stretch far beyond anything I've seen in my lifetime. (And we know full well the impact that Ferguson had on referees to the benefit of Man Utd - they've admitted as such).

Take the on-field events off the table, and just consider that half the refs are from Manchester, and many have been on fully expensed jollies in the UAE. I'd be more inclined to drop the corruption shouts if most referees were Scousers fresh off the back of a piss up on John Henry's yacht. Not sure if our title rivals or the wider footballing audience would be as accepting of the situation in that case.

Offline Caligula?

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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #9 on: December 28, 2023, 09:59:58 am »
I'm not having it. Several clubs are owned by nation states where money for some people is used as toilet paper. Betting syndicates worth billions are pouring even more money into the sport. The head of fucking FIFA was investigated for bribery just a few short years ago.

It's corrupt to the core.

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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #10 on: December 28, 2023, 10:14:29 am »


You’re a braver man than I Fitzy. Good thread, good post. But you’re pissing in the wind I’m afraid.





« Last Edit: December 28, 2023, 07:01:01 pm by John C »

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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #11 on: December 28, 2023, 10:18:24 am »
I'm not having it. Several clubs are owned by nation states where money for some people is used as toilet paper. Betting syndicates worth billions are pouring even more money into the sport. The head of fucking FIFA was investigated for bribery just a few short years ago.

It's corrupt to the core.


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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #12 on: December 28, 2023, 10:46:33 am »
I just don't know how anyone can dismiss the corruption these days. We have it plain as day in government and we have it plain as day in football.

There IS corruption in the Premier League. There's too much money riding on things for there not to be. There are referees going to midweek games to officiate in competitions paid for by the government that owns our biggest title rival. There are extremely dodgy decisions going in favour of said biggest title rival and has happened for years. The media bias for this club also is extremely obvious to the point where NONE OF THEM are calling out the cheating by the GREATEST SIDE EVERRRR.

If there is a even a 0.0001% chance of something being corrupted, in this day and age you can bet it will be corrupted.

Do we also want to talk about Argentina winning the world cup and how that was blatantly orchestrated?

The Italian leagues, the Spanish league having refs paid off to suit a team managed by a certain Manchester City employee?

https://www.eurosport.com/football/scudamore-manchester-united-woes-have-damaged-premier-league-brand_sto4713999/story.shtml

How about this? The Premier League's darling (and publically traded on the stock market) not a good look for the Premier League so maybe we should give them an unprecedented amount of penalties in the second half of a season to get them into the Top 4 - including going back onto the pitch after full time to give Man United a penalty which has never happened before and never happened since.

It stinks and it's everywhere. People are naive if they think that everything is squeaky clean.

That said, there is also a lot of INCOMPETENCE which blurs the lines. But I've no doubt in my mind that this league is corrupt.

Go and look at how much of certain media outlets Saudi own through advertising. It's something like 70% of the Guardian last I checked. I wonder what they could do with that influence.


Offline Son of Spion

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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #13 on: December 28, 2023, 11:13:57 am »
It's a very good post (the OP). Considered and we'll thought out. Thing is though, and I mean no disrespect at all here, it's just a lot of words that skate around the reality of what we see in front of us.

The inescapable fact when we boil everything down is that utterly bizarre and inexplicable decisions are consistently being made that cost clubs titles. Rules also seem to change from game to game. The only consistent thing now is inconsistency.

Of course, massed hordes shouting "conspiracy" at anything and everything is just a lot of words and noise too. But strip away the blanket denials from one camp and the everything's a conspiracy claims from the other and we are still left with a pretty big elephant in the room.

Personally, I totally believe that bias is playing a pretty significant part in how things currently are. When you are rarely, if ever, made accountable for your actions in a job where you have a certain level of power and influence, human nature can quite easily see you subtly abusing that power. I'd be more surprised if that didn't happen.

I think we also have to be realistic too. The game itself absolutely is corrupt. We all know UEFA is corrupt. We all know that nation states can and do corrupt in order to get their way. We also know a corrupt government waved in the Saudi state at Newcastle. Actual murderers given the green light by our proven corrupt government.

So we have seen criminals such as Abramovich and Usmanov. Murderous, oppressive, women-hating, homophobic states such as Abu Dhabi and Saudi ushered in to rape and pillage the game, yet some of us still find it hard to believe that bias and maybe even some corruption doesn't influence things on the field of play too.

Given the abhorrent nature of so many running the sport, the greatest surprise of all would be that there is no corruptive influence on the field of play.

None of it has to involve shady meetings of hooded figures in dark basements. Who believes that referees being invited out to Saudi and being well looked after doesn't have a subtle psychological effect? It's simple human nature. If you feel valued and favoured by someone, you automatically and often subconsciously feel warmth towards them. This can create small yet significant bias, and that slight bias can result in returning the perceived favour.

Thing is, we all know the game has become a cesspool, but some still believe it is a cesspool without turds. The reality is both go together. We know that significant numbers of the people running the game and who have ownership in the game are highly corrupt. So do we also really believe that they aren't doing some dodgy things to gain an advantage?

The sport is corrupt. We know this because those running it are corrupt. We know that it's being used to sportswash murderous nation states. We know that the corrupt Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson gave that the green light. We know these people kill in order to get their way, yet some find it difficult to believe that they'd use their considerable influence in a sport they have in their pockets. Human nature says otherwise. If people have power, wealth and free reign, there will always be corruption. It's inescapable. It comes in many forms too. Often very subtle.

Many of us football fans will spout nonsense. Look at the Bitters recently with their "corruption" shouts after breaking the rules consistently then paying the price. The corruption card is an easy one to play these days even when not remotely warranted. But just because the card is often wrongly played does not for one moment mean that corruption is not taking place in the game. It is. We all know it is. We know it because those running it are corrupt. Those sportswashing through it are corrupt. Those green lighting it in government are corrupt.

Now with all these clearly corrupt people in place, the big question is if they aren't actually using their considerable influence for gain, why aren't they? Why suddenly go completely against their own nature?
« Last Edit: December 28, 2023, 11:45:33 am by Son of Mary »
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Offline BigCDump

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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #14 on: December 28, 2023, 11:27:47 am »
We can all do a little. I cancelled my Sky and BT subscriptions years ago, not just the football but everything. Football streams are getting better and more available. There's just too many around, and lucrative, for Sky/PL to get on top of properly. Otherwise I just get my updates in text form on these forums.

I do have Amazon Prime for my TV needs and just heard they will not be renewing future PL games. I'm actually happy with this. In these economic times we really should not be handing any money over to Sky/TNT. One they're doomed the Middle East money will totally take over thus killing the PL once and for all.

We need the new league asap. Hopefully we will allow the smaller teams in too.
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Offline Chakan

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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #15 on: December 28, 2023, 11:38:04 am »
<snip>

Now with all these clearly corrupt people in place, the big question is if they aren't actually using their considerable influence for gain, why aren't they? Why suddenly go completely against their own nature?

Fantastic post, pretty much where I am as well.

I think the above point is a stickler really, you've got corrupt people involved at all levels of football, we have a nation state that kills journalists when they write bad things about them, repress women, and kill and imprison gay people, but using money and  power to influence a football match is a step too far for them.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2023, 11:44:06 am by Chakan Stevens »

Offline Fitzy.

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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #16 on: December 28, 2023, 11:46:10 am »
.

Many of us football fans will spout nonsense. Look at the Bitters recently with their "corruption" shouts after breaking the rules consistently then paying the price. The corruption card is an easy one to play these days even when not remotely warranted. But just because the card is often wrongly played does not for one moment mean that corruption is not taking place in the game. It is. We all know it is. We know it because those running it are corrupt. Those sportswashing through it are corrupt. Those green lighting it in government are corrupt.

Good post. This is possibly true, but it’s obviously a two-way street. Accepting the idea that corruption is at play (which I mentioned) should not give everyone licence to cry corruption when - for example - Elliott’s goal is ruled out for an offside. It’s incredibly glib and route one. It’s not corrupt to rule the goal out. It just isn’t. The better enquiry here is around the botched offside law, which is a mess.

Lots of pretty angry posts responding to my OP. Many of them - I believe - backing up my point that fans place themselves at the centre of righteousness while the corruption swirls around them. Listing a series of things wrong with geopolitical arrangements isn’t actual evidence that Liverpool are subject to a grand conspiracy. It’s just drawing lines, constructing straw men and declaring “case closed”.

I’m comfortable with notions of corruption at the very top of the game. I do believe, however, that the fan ‘space’ has been contaminated with a prevailing sense of injustice after every single game - across all fanbases.


Offline Gili Gulu

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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #17 on: December 28, 2023, 11:51:38 am »
Anyone who has read the several articles by Tomkins Times can see for a fact that we get worse refereeing decisions that any other club.

No-one can see inside another person's mind (or bank accounts usually) so we can't know if it's corruption or bias, and if bias whether it is unconscious or not, but there's so many stats that Paul Tomkins has uncovered based on objective data that prove something untoward is going on.

Tierney for example is shockingly biased against us, and I refuse to believe that it can possibly be unconscious, it's far too consistent. The same went for Martin Atkinson, he must have known what he was doing.


https://tomkinstimes.com/2022/01/liverpool-shocking-penalty-and-var-facts-dont-fit-hysterical-media-narrative/

https://tomkinstimes.substack.com/p/referees-treat-lfc-very-differently

https://tomkinstimes.substack.com/p/objective-data-liverpool-are-refereed

https://tomkinstimes.com/2020/10/martin-atkinsons-bias-against-liverpool-its-in-the-stats-and-anecdotes/

https://tomkinstimes.substack.com/p/detailed-analysis-the-alarming-abnormal
« Last Edit: December 28, 2023, 11:59:25 am by Gili Gulu »
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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #18 on: December 28, 2023, 11:52:50 am »
Good post. This is possibly true, but it’s obviously a two-way street. Accepting the idea that corruption is at play (which I mentioned) should not give everyone licence to cry corruption when - for example - Elliott’s goal is ruled out for an offside. It’s incredibly glib and route one. It’s not corrupt to rule the goal out. It just isn’t. The better enquiry here is around the botched offside law, which is a mess.

Lots of pretty angry posts responding to my OP. Many of them - I believe - backing up my point that fans place themselves at the centre of righteousness while the corruption swirls around them. Listing a series of things wrong with geopolitical arrangements isn’t actual evidence that Liverpool are subject to a grand conspiracy. It’s just drawing lines, constructing straw men and declaring “case closed”.

I’m comfortable with notions of corruption at the very top of the game. I do believe, however, that the fan ‘space’ has been contaminated with a prevailing sense of injustice after every single game - across all fanbases.

To add to my post I agree with what you're saying here. Not every decision requires it to be used as an excuse, and the Everton stuff takes away from legitimate claims.

One thing for me that just baffles me over and over again is the inconsistency. No VAR check or referee check for Gakpo's disallowed goal, but for Elliott's goal there was. The issue that time we had with the lines not being shown on a Diaz offside that was onside - this stuff is what points to corruption for me, or, at best, covering for incompetence.

It's a fine line, but there is definitely something foul going on.

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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #19 on: December 28, 2023, 11:55:12 am »
You’re a braver man than I Fitzy. Good thread, good post. But you’re pissing in the wind I’m afraid.

Fitzy is the true GOAT.
You're all too fucking serious, the lot of you. Relax, we don't really matter.

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Offline Fitzy.

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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #20 on: December 28, 2023, 11:57:48 am »
Fitzy is the true GOAT.
Appreciated.

I needed an update…








:P

Offline Son of Spion

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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #21 on: December 28, 2023, 12:00:24 pm »
Good post. This is possibly true, but it’s obviously a two-way street. Accepting the idea that corruption is at play (which I mentioned) should not give everyone licence to cry corruption when - for example - Elliott’s goal is ruled out for an offside. It’s incredibly glib and route one. It’s not corrupt to rule the goal out. It just isn’t. The better enquiry here is around the botched offside law, which is a mess.

Lots of pretty angry posts responding to my OP. Many of them - I believe - backing up my point that fans place themselves at the centre of righteousness while the corruption swirls around them. Listing a series of things wrong with geopolitical arrangements isn’t actual evidence that Liverpool are subject to a grand conspiracy. It’s just drawing lines, constructing straw men and declaring “case closed”.

I’m comfortable with notions of corruption at the very top of the game. I do believe, however, that the fan ‘space’ has been contaminated with a prevailing sense of injustice after every single game - across all fanbases.
I definitely agree it can cut both ways. Not everything is down to corruption. Just because the game itself is deeply corrupt does not mean that every decision is also corrupt.

Thing is though, fans just don't know what's what anymore. The waters are so muddy now. Because the game is so chaotic with rules that seemingly change daily, we can see bogeymen around every corner rather than at just the corners he's really standing behind.
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Offline Oldmanmick

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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #22 on: December 28, 2023, 12:02:53 pm »
Maybe we fans are a bit 'paranoid'. But when you see an Arsenal player playing basket ball in the opposition penalty area & nothing is given, then the following day an Everton player has the ball blasted at him from close range, which subsequently hits him on the hand, which ends up as a penalty, then you have to question who's actually feeding the paranoia ? They say that things even themselves out over the course of the season. If that's the case we can sit back & relax now as we stroll to title number 20 courtesy of VAR & PGMOL.

Offline Redbonnie

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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #23 on: December 28, 2023, 12:23:13 pm »
I'm not having it. Several clubs are owned by nation states where money for some people is used as toilet paper. Betting syndicates worth billions are pouring even more money into the sport. The head of fucking FIFA was investigated for bribery just a few short years ago.

It's corrupt to the core.

This is the point sadly, it would be astonishing if there wasn’t an attempt at influencing referees in this environment. Despite that there are absolutely no controls to stop it happening, or even an acknowledgment that it could happen. 

The Tottenham game was reffed in a weird way from the off and it wasn’t just the Diaz goal..Hiding in plain sight.

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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #24 on: December 28, 2023, 12:25:21 pm »
Problem now is people see conspiracies and victimisation at every decision that goes against their own team. If we ever get a decision go our way then there's almost a public inquiry it seems. Maybe that's bring paranoid. Everton get punished for cheating and it's corruption.

However Liverpool getting lumbered with Manchester refs practically every week, who clearly go against us more than for in games, is not a conspiracy. We've got a genuine grievance. No way United or City would put up with getting routinely screwed over by Scouse refs. Wolves as well with the decisions they've put up with.

A lot of fans are just entitled. Personally I just want to watch a fair game.


Part of it is modern society but VAR has made things far worse. A hideous blight on the sport. Pre-VAR it was rarer you came away from a game feeling wronged or cheated.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2023, 12:31:13 pm by Fromola »
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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #25 on: December 28, 2023, 12:28:00 pm »
Good post. This is possibly true, but it’s obviously a two-way street. Accepting the idea that corruption is at play (which I mentioned) should not give everyone licence to cry corruption when - for example - Elliott’s goal is ruled out for an offside. It’s incredibly glib and route one. It’s not corrupt to rule the goal out. It just isn’t. The better enquiry here is around the botched offside law, which is a mess.

Lots of pretty angry posts responding to my OP. Many of them - I believe - backing up my point that fans place themselves at the centre of righteousness while the corruption swirls around them. Listing a series of things wrong with geopolitical arrangements isn’t actual evidence that Liverpool are subject to a grand conspiracy. It’s just drawing lines, constructing straw men and declaring “case closed”.

I’m comfortable with notions of corruption at the very top of the game. I do believe, however, that the fan ‘space’ has been contaminated with a prevailing sense of injustice after every single game - across all fanbases.



I don't think they were angry (not all of them at least). Rather, they are looking at information out there are drawing conclusions from that information (both on and off field).

If you don't agree with the conclusions - that's fair. But more and more points towards "something" going on.

Now, is that something the greatest and most inept set of officials (and VAR) ever in the history of the game? Or is it something more nefarious?

As noted, FIFA and UEFA are proven to be some of the most corrupt organizations in history. Why could the PL not be one as well?

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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #26 on: December 28, 2023, 12:36:41 pm »

 

Now, is that something the greatest and most inept set of officials (and VAR) ever in the history of the game? Or is it something more nefarious?



Most inept?


I don’t know an era when refs were highly rated. Genuinely, never in my lifetime. Also, current crop are contending with higher levels of scrutiny alongside operating a failing technology.


The system is geared towards bad officiating. The culture is geared towards exposing every mistake. No wonder we’re all conspiracy theorists.

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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #27 on: December 28, 2023, 12:42:31 pm »
Most inept?


I don’t know an era when refs were highly rated. Genuinely, never in my lifetime. Also, current crop are contending with higher levels of scrutiny alongside operating a failing technology.


The system is geared towards bad officiating. The culture is geared towards exposing every mistake. No wonder we’re all conspiracy theorists.

Maybe the technology is just exposing how utterly inept and corrupt the officials are?

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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #28 on: December 28, 2023, 12:44:14 pm »
Most inept?


I don’t know an era when refs were highly rated. Genuinely, never in my lifetime. Also, current crop are contending with higher levels of scrutiny alongside operating a failing technology.


The system is geared towards bad officiating. The culture is geared towards exposing every mistake. No wonder we’re all conspiracy theorists.

Sure - refs have always been bad. Agreed.

But have you ever seen a situation where a ref forgot to draw lines for an offside despite that being his sole job? Massive incompetence (I don't see corruption there).

But when you are in a regime where there is no real punishment for your performances - then you can start getting away with things more easily.

I don't know what the answer is - but the system we have now + the unreal money in the game makes for strange bedfellows.

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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #29 on: December 28, 2023, 12:55:10 pm »
...I don't know what the answer is - but the system we have now + the unreal money in the game makes for strange bedfellows.

A reasonable question to ask is - can we think of a single multi-billion pound industry anywhere that hasn't succumbed to corruption?

Off the top of my head, I can't.

If we can't, then what would make the PL any different? Especially when we consider the amount of clearly dubious characters the game is currently saturated with.

« Last Edit: December 28, 2023, 12:57:16 pm by Son of Mary »
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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #30 on: December 28, 2023, 01:00:44 pm »
Maybe the technology is just exposing how utterly inept and corrupt the officials are?
I think the system is almost impossible to master and tame.

It’s over-wrought, it’s second guessing itself and it’s administered by people who came through the ranks having honed their craft that isn’t directly related to how elite football is officiated. Ineptness has emerged out of the ‘over-correction’ that VAR represents.

Corruption would be a whole lot slicker and more covert than this. We’re simply watching a botched enterprise played out in front of billions.

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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #31 on: December 28, 2023, 01:02:48 pm »
A reasonable question to ask is - can we think of a single multi-billion pound industry anywhere that hasn't succumbed to corruption?

Off the top of my head, I can't.

If we can't, then what would make the PL any different? Especially when we consider the amount of clearly dubious characters the game is currently saturated with.


I’m not satisfied with this in the sense that I need a direct line drawn for me to show the corruption laid bare. Otherwise it’s straw man territory, which is where conspiracies go to grow and spread.

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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #32 on: December 28, 2023, 01:04:10 pm »
I think the system is almost impossible to master and tame.

It’s over-wrought, it’s second guessing itself and it’s administered by people who came through the ranks having honed their craft that isn’t directly related to how elite football is officiated. Ineptness has emerged out of the ‘over-correction’ that VAR represents.

Corruption would be a whole lot slicker and more covert than this. We’re simply watching a botched enterprise played out in front of billions.

How is VAR working in other leagues? I honestly don't know, as I rarely watch anything other than the premier league. Are other supporters in other leagues up in arms about it? If not it would suggest that maybe the technology itself is fine and the problem seems to rest with the referee's we are currently saddled with.

Why would it be slicker? You're dealing with people who really couldn't give a shit. Man City have 115 charges against them for cooking the books, you think that would have been a bit slicker.

Every decision doesn't have to be corruption but to blatantly say that it's just ineptitude I think also shows a bit of naivete to the situation. Honestly I think the answer lies somewhere in the midde. The refs are quite clearly inept and bias, but I also think some of them can quite easily be influenced.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2023, 01:10:36 pm by Chakan Stevens »

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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #33 on: December 28, 2023, 01:05:09 pm »
A reasonable question to ask is - can we think of a single multi-billion pound industry anywhere that hasn't succumbed to corruption?

Off the top of my head, I can't.

If we can't, then what would make the PL any different? Especially when we consider the amount of clearly dubious characters the game is currently saturated with.



What kind of corruption are you on about - the brown envelope, cooking the books kind of corruption, or the - we didn't get a refereeing decision, so it must be corruption - kind of corruption?



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Offline bradders1011

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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #34 on: December 28, 2023, 01:08:45 pm »
The word 'corrupt' implies conspiracy or forethought and I think that's where a lot of this debate comes from.

'Biased' would be better. You can clearly see a pattern in decision-making (the Tomkins stuff as linked above). Even if we argue about biased decision-making for or against certain teams or people, I don't think you can argue that they don't bias decisions in favour of The NarrativeTM

Burnley, for instance. If Trafford doesn't make that wondersave and it's 2 or 3-0, probably both our disallowed goals are given, because who cares? As it's 1-0, it keeps interest in the game. City's pen, for me, doesn't get given if they're 2 or 3-0 up.

On the topic of competence, I've seen it argued that it's always been this bad and technology just makes the awful performances more prominent, the implication (in some cases explicit point) being that there's nothing we can do. This stops short of a part of the solution - use this sunlight-disinfectant and scientific approach to improve decision-making. I'm not saying reffing Spurs-Liverpool is as important as landing a 747, but you could see the utterly inept communication process used contributed directly to the wrong decision being made. For that reason, air traffic uses very specific language and constant repetition to make sure both sides know what's happening. The fact that something so simple wasn't implemented from the ground up in VAR and that PGMOL in general are so opaque fuels conspiracy talk. Proper comms, internally and externally, is so simple, why aren't they doing it? What are they hiding?
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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #35 on: December 28, 2023, 01:17:33 pm »
Not corruption just referee bias, possibly even unintentional bias in that they don't realise that they are biased, I remember watching England play Croatia and convincing myself I was supporting England as these were the boys I watch week in week out, I was convinced I was actually supporting England commenting on how well certain players were doing and urging them to do better, then Croatia scored and I leaped in delight, not sure if anything can be done about it other than play your best game.
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Offline ToneLa

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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #36 on: December 28, 2023, 01:20:05 pm »
I'm a fan of Hanlon's Razor,

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."

Problem with the conspiracy thinking is it ascribes no identity to THEY. Which you see in all walks of life, "they won't let you", "they aren't gonna like it", usually some else's fear or own experiences projected negatively dressed up as advice, or a warning.

I think the officiating in the PL is incompetent enough for it to look like malice.

Same goes for politics really. It's incompetence all the way down. Evil exists but only as an action or deed; if you do not arm yourself with the knowledge - the nature of things, the specifics - you can see all sorts of webs.

Most people seem broadly afraid of AI and automation, but the problem for me is the personnel behind it. VAR is a joke, because of the implementation. The big ticket errors in it have been human.

You almost wish for a benevolent machine to run it, free from the error us bags of skin make. Except when people think about that, they're describing God rather than the machine; but then I've made money in life finding software bugs.

I think footie has always had and always will have incidents that look very suspect and are just by their visibility pretty outrageous.

I am more affronted that with the money and technology it isn't any better. It hints at much deeper problems to solve. The sport itself often feels compromised, which is the opposite of what you'd hope the powers that be wish to do. It suggests a certain moral or intellectual vacany in those responsible.

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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #37 on: December 28, 2023, 01:20:25 pm »
What kind of corruption are you on about - the brown envelope, cooking the books kind of corruption, or the - we didn't get a refereeing decision, so it must be corruption - kind of corruption?
Any kind of corruption. Any means, subtle or otherwise that manipulates overall outcomes.

I've already said earlier that although I'm 100% convinced corruption is commonplace in football, that not every decision that goes against you is down to corruption. The bogeyman is around some corners, but certainly not all.
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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #38 on: December 28, 2023, 01:30:12 pm »
Not corruption just referee bias, possibly even unintentional bias in that they don't realise that they are biased, I remember watching England play Croatia and convincing myself I was supporting England as these were the boys I watch week in week out, I was convinced I was actually supporting England commenting on how well certain players were doing and urging them to do better, then Croatia scored and I leaped in delight, not sure if anything can be done about it other than play your best game.


This gets closer to the nub for me...I see it as an unhealthy combo of deep rooted Institutional/professional bias - which VAR has actually magnified - and organisational self-interest, ie, follow (and keep well in with) the money......both are at the heart of the governing bodies, with the latter increasingly so...
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Re: The corruption fallacy - they’re all out to get us!
« Reply #39 on: December 28, 2023, 01:38:20 pm »
I'm a fan of Hanlon's Razor,

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."

Problem with the conspiracy thinking is it ascribes no identity to THEY. Which you see in all walks of life, "they won't let you", "they aren't gonna like it", usually some else's fear or own experiences projected negatively dressed up as advice, or a warning.

I think the officiating in the PL is incompetent enough for it to look like malice.

Same goes for politics really. It's incompetence all the way down. Evil exists but only as an action or deed; if you do not arm yourself with the knowledge - the nature of things, the specifics - you can see all sorts of webs.

Most people seem broadly afraid of AI and automation, but the problem for me is the personnel behind it. VAR is a joke, because of the implementation. The big ticket errors in it have been human.

You almost wish for a benevolent machine to run it, free from the error us bags of skin make. Except when people think about that, they're describing God rather than the machine; but then I've made money in life finding software bugs.

I think footie has always had and always will have incidents that look very suspect and are just by their visibility pretty outrageous.

I am more affronted that with the money and technology it isn't any better. It hints at much deeper problems to solve. The sport itself often feels compromised, which is the opposite of what you'd hope the powers that be wish to do. It suggests a certain moral or intellectual vacany in those responsible.

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