Topic: Chelsea FC

[LovelyCushionedHeader]

Just watched the highlights - Tuchel’s comments about his side not being willing to commit to Arsenal’s effort levels isn’t just correct, it’s a huge understatement.

Not sure whether that’s evidence of them not being match sharp yet having started training a bit later, or a true problem within the camp because there just seemed to be no effort there. And not ‘I don’t want to get injured in a friendly’ lack of effort, more downing tools levels.

Thing is, Tuchel has the power to not play these players that want to leave. Might be a good starting point!

[Drinks Sangria]

Thing is, Tuchel has the power to not play these players that want to leave. Might be a good starting point!

That one seems to have escaped him when throwing them under the bus. He will either wrestle back control with a fairly cut-throat glut of sales late in the window, or he’ll implode this season.

[killer-heels]

Can you read that much into pre-season though?

[jillcwhomever]

Can you read that much into pre-season though?

Read his interview though, he is questioning a lot of player's attitudes. Do you think Klopp would put up with our players lacking effort and stuff. Of course, it's not wise to dismiss them but by the very fact he is going in so hard now, indicates he has real concerns about a number of players.

[Fromola]

Thing is, Tuchel has the power to not play these players that want to leave. Might be a good starting point!

This was their team: Chelsea: Mendy; James (Hudson-Odoi 73), Chalobah (Sarr 44), Thiago Silva (Koulibaly 73), Emerson (Alonso h/t), Gallagher (Kovacic h/t), Jorginho (c) (Ampadu 73), Mount (Ziyech 64), Sterling (Pulisic h/t), Havertz (Batshuayi 64), Werner (Azpilicueta h/t).

I doubt those looking to leave started the game, maybe 1 or 2 and then a couple of the subs.

[Dim Glas]

Adam Newson
@AdamNewson

Tuchel: "I saw a team in Arsenal who are mentally committed to a level of exhaustion that we could not match physically and mentally because we have a lot of players who are thinking about leaving and looking at their options." #CFC

And also:

Tuchel on lack of goal threat: "We have the same issues because we have the same players.”

He says stuff like that then whinges about players wanting out and about needing to buy more new players, and he wonders why some of the players’ priorities is leaving.

It’s very much Tuchel’s way though, he gets it in his head that he wants certain players, and be damned those already there. He’s already got Sterling in, and despite struggles for a couple of them, the group of attackers he has there is significantly more talented than much of the league.  A less egotisical coach would get far more out of what he had at his disposal. 

[Enraged]

What a moaning twat he's spend 100's of million get on with the job just look at Klopp 1st few seasons wheeling and dealing in the market.

[MonsLibpool]

What a moaning twat he's spend 100's of million get on with the job just look at Klopp 1st few seasons wheeling and dealing in the market.

Chequebook manager.

[SamLad]

he constantly behaves like a spoled child.  totally incapable of any leadership or man-management.

[Garrus]

And also:

Tuchel on lack of goal threat: "We have the same issues because we have the same players.”

He says stuff like that then whinges about players wanting out and about needing to buy more new players, and he wonders why some of the players’ priorities is leaving.

It’s very much Tuchel’s way though, he gets it in his head that he wants certain players, and be damned those already there. He’s already got Sterling in, and despite struggles for a couple of them, the group of attackers he has there is significantly more talented than much of the league.  A less egotisical coach would get far more out of what he had at his disposal.

If Abramovich was still in charge, you'd feel his sacking would be inevitable over the course of the season.

He's got a lot more leeway to make demands with an inexperienced ownership group.

[El Lobo]

It’s not demands, he’s literally doing what I expect Conte will do at some point this season and setting up a ‘please sack me’ situation, so he can go to Real/PSG/Inter

[Jm55]

I for one am stunned that a setup whereby the manager, playing and coaching staff are only there because of the obscene amounts of money on offer is now falling apart shortly after the source of that obscene amount of money fucked off.

Absolutely stunned.

[jillcwhomever]

It’s not demands, he’s literally doing what I expect Conte will do at some point this season and setting up a ‘please sack me’ situation, so he can go to Real/PSG/Inter

He's already done his time at PSG, I would doubt he'd want to go back there.

[Fromola]

If Abramovich was still in charge, you'd feel his sacking would be inevitable over the course of the season.

He's got a lot more leeway to make demands with an inexperienced ownership group.

Hopefully it's 3rd season Mourinho territory. He doesn't seem a longevity manager.

He'll be regretting signing that extension just before Abramavich fucked off and be eyeing up his next job.

He is a top end coach though. He's kept them competitive since Lampard was shite there.

[Dim Glas]

It’s not demands, he’s literally doing what I expect Conte will do at some point this season and setting up a ‘please sack me’ situation, so he can go to Real/PSG/Inter

Tuchel will be hoping Nagelsmann underwhelms again this year and Bayern sack him.

[Dave McCoy]

Something doesn’t add up here though. The press have been briefed repeatedly that Tuchel now has a say in transfers unlike before where Roman and Marina didn’t give a shit what the manager wanted. They’ve also clearly been spending if the reported fees and wages for their completed transfers are anywhere near accurate. Due to the weather issues for the ManC game I ended up watching some of this game and while I’m not going to waste brain power analyzing a preseason game it reminded me of our ManU game where any mistake led to a goal but overall the play wasn’t bad.

Unless there’s another shoe to drop I wouldn’t be so quick to right these off, think this is more motivational than anything else. Tuchel seems pretty strange so he may think this is all fine to say.

[CanuckYNWA]

Tuchel taking zero accountability and throwing his players under the bus? Just par the course for him. Happened at Dortmund and PSG, he always shifts blame on to others.

I called it that this was a massive transition period and it very much seems like hes going to lose the dressing room like he has done before

Very much think there is a spot open in the Top 4 for either Arsenal or Utd if they are up to it. Think Spurs easily get Top 3, think Spurs will be like Chelsea last season. Not challenging for the title but comfortable holding down 3rd.

[CanuckYNWA]

Read his interview though, he is questioning a lot of player's attitudes. Do you think Klopp would put up with our players lacking effort and stuff. Of course, it's not wise to dismiss them but by the very fact he is going in so hard now, indicates he has real concerns about a number of players.

Difference is Klopp would handle it behind the scenes, not in front of the media

Doing it with the media is basically preemptively shifting blame so he can go "See I told you so, this is why we are struggling"

[The North Bank]

He might have a point if they’re not signing players but they’ve spent as much money as anyone, on a team that already finished 3rd and got to 2 finals. I’ve no doubt by the time the window shuts they’ll have more players in and be the biggest spenders this window. They’ve also got loan players like Broja and Gallagher. He’s hardly managing with restraints, nothing Chelsea can do about players wanting to play for Barca instead of a plastic club. Maybe when Roman  was there he’d dip behind the sofa and they’d double the wages on offer then wonder how good their team is. Those days are gone, managers have to manage now and while he did well being the neutral spokesman when Roman was selling the club and Ukraine getting invaded, he’s not a neutral observer anymore, needs to get back to his role as manager.

[Fromola]

Something doesn’t add up here though. The press have been briefed repeatedly that Tuchel now has a say in transfers unlike before where Roman and Marina didn’t give a shit what the manager wanted. They’ve also clearly been spending if the reported fees and wages for their completed transfers are anywhere near accurate. Due to the weather issues for the ManC game I ended up watching some of this game and while I’m not going to waste brain power analyzing a preseason game it reminded me of our ManU game where any mistake led to a goal but overall the play wasn’t bad.

Unless there’s another shoe to drop I wouldn’t be so quick to right these off, think this is more motivational than anything else. Tuchel seems pretty strange so he may think this is all fine to say.

I certainly wouldn't write them off, I'd just hope that it's downhill from here with Tuchel, given how well he did in his first year. He does seem a more short term fix manager which Chelsea regularly employ.

[thaddeus]

The Everton vs. Chelsea game on the opening day is going to be like the equivalent of the under 5s egg and spoon race with the fans of the victors proclaiming themselves favourites for the 100m sprint.  The manager of the losing side will publicly flog his players for their lack of effort.

Something to look forward to.  I just hope it's not a face-saving draw.

[El Lobo]

Something doesn’t add up here though. The press have been briefed repeatedly that Tuchel now has a say in transfers unlike before where Roman and Marina didn’t give a shit what the manager wanted. They’ve also clearly been spending if the reported fees and wages for their completed transfers are anywhere near accurate. Due to the weather issues for the ManC game I ended up watching some of this game and while I’m not going to waste brain power analyzing a preseason game it reminded me of our ManU game where any mistake led to a goal but overall the play wasn’t bad.

Unless there’s another shoe to drop I wouldn’t be so quick to right these off, think this is more motivational than anything else. Tuchel seems pretty strange so he may think this is all fine to say.

Yeah if I was you, I wouldnt

It was nothing like us against United, that literally was a freak. Our XG in that game was I think 1.7 for us to 1.5 to them, more possesion, more shots, more corners etc etc, in this one Arsenal were 2.5 to 0.2 i.e Chelsea literally didn't have a single clear cut chance. More possession, more shots on and off target, battered in every aspect of the game. The only thing you're right about is that it was pre-season so you can't make TOO drastic proclamations about it.

He's doing what a lot of chequebook managers do. Already setting himself up as separate from the club. They've not signed the players I want, they've not sold the players I want, the players that are here obviously aren't good enough, we need more etc etc. It being motivational is pretty funny. He's spent the last year pretty much dismantling any confidence Werner might have had, he's got to a point with Pulisic that his dad is trying to get him out of the club, he literally ran Lukaku out of the club (and say what you like, he's always been a good PL striker if not £100 million worth), he's been giving it the 'I want to keep Broja' which is obviously bollocks because he's crap.... but you think saying "We have the same issues because we have the same players.” is some clever motivational ploy?

Their squad looks the same sort of level as Spurs right now, slightly better than Arsenal. But thats including seemingly a lot of players the manager doesn't fancy. They've got questions marks probably over half their squad.

[Red Beret]

With the season starting relatively early this year, we should probably expect a fair few teams to stumble unexpectedly early doors. We have to make sure we're not one of them, but as an aside, the adage "it's just pre-season" doesn't quite cut it this year.

The season starts in 13 days. Twelve for Arsenal/Palace.

[Agent99]

Does that management style ever work though? Tuchel, Conte and Mourinho all love antagonizing players and owners and it invariably falls apart. Has any Manager had long term success doing that?

[Elzar]

Does that management style ever work though? Tuchel, Conte and Mourinho all love antagonizing players and owners and it invariably falls apart. Has any Manager had long term success doing that?

In their bank accounts? yes.

[Dim Glas]

Difference is Klopp would handle it behind the scenes, not in front of the media

Doing it with the media is basically preemptively shifting blame so he can go "See I told you so, this is why we are struggling"

It’s very much his way.

The stuff he’s come out with this week is the Thomas Tuchel of BVB. Chelsea fans have been charmed with him up till this pre-season, but now they have got a taste for who he really is. I see plenty of them still holding onto the ‘he’s being honest’, ‘he’s saying what needs to be said’ and going with that as some sort of positive. And while there can be a truth in that, but he does it without taking an ounce of responsibility.

The comment he made about the lack of goals is dumfounding to be honest, ("We have the same issues because we have the same players.”).

When he arrived at Chelsea, the forwards available to him where Giroud, Werner, Abraham, Hudson-Odoi, Ziyech and Pulisic. Then Havertz and Mount as attacking midfielders, both already with good goal-scoring records from that position.

That is a group of players most PL teams bar the couple obvious ones, would love to have at their disposal. Yet the only one who’s pushed on under him, is Kai Havertz. And I don’t even think it’s that he’s ‘improved’ him so much, as anyone who saw a lot of him knows what natural talent he has. But at least he found a role for him in the team that really worked.

He didn’t fancy Abraham, and alienated him within the squad within weeks. He’s not been able to improve Werner’s mindset or confidence. Pulisic he gets a pass on due to him having so many injures and then covid breaks. He also was happy to see Abraham sold and replaced by Lukaku, who he then also alientates and pushes out the door at the first opportunity.  And in Sterling he already had a new £50m forward, so again, he’s been handed an expensive piece to add to his squad.

If as he says his team is ‘not ready’ for the start of the season, then that is on him. Sure, with this weird world cup season coming up, not ideal - but that goes for many teams, not just his.

[NightDancer]

Does that management style ever work though? Tuchel, Conte and Mourinho all love antagonizing players and owners and it invariably falls apart. Has any Manager had long term success doing that?

Think you could argue that past names like Clough, Ferguson etc., were like that to varying degrees.

[El Lobo]

Think you could argue that past names like Clough, Ferguson etc., were like that to varying degrees.

They were both abrasive but I dont think either, Ferguson in particular, was like that towards players or owners. I certainly don't remember the hard shoulder shitter being so openly twattish towards the players he already had.

[Fromola]

The Everton vs. Chelsea game on the opening day is going to be like the equivalent of the under 5s egg and spoon race with the fans of the victors proclaiming themselves favourites for the 100m sprint.  The manager of the losing side will publicly flog his players for their lack of effort.

Something to look forward to.  I just hope it's not a face-saving draw.

Chelsea always shit the bed at Goodison.

[Fromola]

Think you could argue that past names like Clough, Ferguson etc., were like that to varying degrees.

Ferguson always an exception. Anyone he viewed as a problem would be out the door and everyone else fell in line. He always has senior lieutenants he would keep around like Neville and Scholes.

Did Clough even have long term success fwiw? 3 great seasons at Forest and then fell away for the most part. Leeds got rid of him.because the players wouldn't have him.

[El Lobo]

Ferguson always an exception. Anyone he viewed as a problem would be out the door and everyone else fell in line. He always has senior lieutenants he would keep around like Neville and Scholes.

Did Clough even have long term success fwiw? 3 great seasons at Forest and then fell away for the most part. Leeds got rid of him.because the players wouldn't have him.

He did yeah.

[12C]

Im not sure it probably involves buying Man City cast offs for 45 million a whack and then giving them 300K a week and bidding left, right and centre for a shower of other random players.

Profit.

Well I heard that you set up an anonymous shell company offshore which loans money to football clubs. You then arrange a short term loan for your club of about £20m, at 5% p.a.guaranteed interest against future TV revenue. You are actually loaning the club the money (because you ultimately own the shell), but unlike a share investment, because football clubs rarely give a dividend, you get a 5% guaranteed return on your loan.
Repeat this. Short term loan every year and …

[Fromola]

He did yeah.

He obviously worked miracles at Forest and what he achieved between 1978-80 was incredible. From 80-81 - 86-87 they were often around mid table and made one semi final.  Bearing in mind the likes of Watford, Ipswich and Southampton were runners up in some of those seasons and Everton won the league twice.  It was nothing like it is now in terms of a big 6 or whatever.

They weren't competitive for a long time.

[El Lobo]

He obviously worked miracles at Forest and what he achieved between 1978-80 was incredible. From 80-81 - 86-87 they were often around mid table and made one semi final.  Bearing in mind the likes of Watford, Ipswich and Southampton were runners up in some of those seasons and Everton won the league twice.  It was nothing like it is now in terms of a big 6 or whatever.

They weren't competitive for a long time.

He won the title with Derby in the early 70s, after getting them promoted. And he won European Cups/League titles when we were the dominant team in Europe. To say he didnt have long term success is probably about....in the middle of daft things you've written.

[Terry de Niro]

Ferguson always an exception. Anyone he viewed as a problem would be out the door and everyone else fell in line. He always has senior lieutenants he would keep around like Neville and Scholes.

Did Clough even have long term success fwiw? 3 great seasons at Forest and then fell away for the most part. Leeds got rid of him.because the players wouldn't have him.

Clough also did very well with Derby.
He had all his success with both clubs with Peter Taylor as his wingman.
No surprise that he didn't succeed at Leeds without Taylor and his initial success with Forest soon fell away once Taylor departed.

[Red Beret]

He obviously worked miracles at Forest and what he achieved between 1978-80 was incredible. From 80-81 - 86-87 they were often around mid table and made one semi final.  Bearing in mind the likes of Watford, Ipswich and Southampton were runners up in some of those seasons and Everton won the league twice.  It was nothing like it is now in terms of a big 6 or whatever.

They weren't competitive for a long time.

I pretty much agree with this. Clough had the managerial equivalent of a purple patch where everything clicked for him. He spent the next 10-15 years living off the back of that brief period during that late 70s/early 80s period. Probably not too dissimilar to Everton, really, except Forest got their European football pre-ban.

[So… Howard Philips]

Clough also did very well with Derby.
He had all his success with both clubs with Peter Taylor as his wingman.
No surprise that he didn't succeed at Leeds without Taylor and his initial success with Forest soon fell away once Taylor departed.

And his Derby County team beat us to the title in 1972, so they weren’t that shabby either.

And lost a European Cup semi final against Juventus due to skulduggery.

[Fromola]

Clough also did very well with Derby.
He had all his success with both clubs with Peter Taylor as his wingman.
No surprise that he didn't succeed at Leeds without Taylor and his initial success with Forest soon fell away once Taylor departed.

Yeah he obviously did great at Derby as well winning the league. My point was sustained success in a job.

Chelsea have had a raft of more short term success managers, where it unravels after 2 or 3 years. Mourinho and Conte for example. Tuchel seems cut from a similar cloth.

[Terry de Niro]

Yeah he obviously did great at Derby as well winning the league. My point was sustained success in a job.

Chelsea have had a raft of more short term success managers, where it unravels after 2 or 3 years. Mourinho and Conte for example. Tuchel seems cut from a similar cloth.

Fair comment.
Maybe to do with him having all his success with Peter Taylor at his side, as I said.

[Fromola]

Fair comment.
Maybe to do with him having all his success with Peter Taylor at his side, as I said.

Quite possibly. He missed him at Brighton and Leeds IIRC.

But Taylor's last season at Forest with Clough they finished 12th and just 2 years after the 2nd European Cup. They didn't fall away so much just because Taylor left.