Topic: Never mind 'Stop the Boats' - STOP THE TORIES

[Andy @ Allerton!]

I find this kind of militant centrism such a depressing political outlook. It's baffling that you look around at what's happening to the country and "can't see what they could do apart from to appease a certain sector with a certain ideology". This obsession with the "far-left" has to stop at some point, millions of people are at serious risk.

The cost of living crisis is such a massive open goal for the opposition, just offer something that puts the pressure on, push them to offer more support, prevent the cap being raised over and over. Literally anything. I know this is where we differ but I don't think Labour should just sit on their hands for the next few years, watching silently on as millions struggle to make ends meet, saying "well, we better not say anything in case it upsets swing voters". People need help, now. That's ideological purity I suppose!

I don't want Labour to appease anyone

I want them to appeal to enough voters to get the Tories out of power and keep the Tories out of power.

[Dench57]

When's the next general election?

[Andy @ Allerton!]

When's the next general election?

Between a year and three years away it seems

[ljycb]

When's the next general election?

My guess is that we have had one by the end of next year, but the next election is officially pencilled in for no later than January 2025.

[Nobby Reserve]

I don't want Labour to appease anyone

I want them to appeal to enough voters to get the Tories out of power and keep the Tories out of power.

Then it can be Labour implementing Tory policy?

Great!

[Lusty]

I suppose it’s (like everything else) a difficult balancing act for Starmer and Labour. Up until now, keeping their heads down and letting the Tories implode has served them well in terms of polling, so I guess the questions that they will be asking are… Do we need to make ourselves visible in this moment of crisis? And if so, when and how do we go about doing this? I think there is still a perception of Labour in the wider public of them being “no different” to the Tories, and not in a left-wing “Starmer’s a Tory” kind of way, but more in a “Labour are just as useless, why should we trust them?” kind of way. What would be potentially bad for Labour is them coming out and going hard at such a time that the response to it is ambivalence or worse a big section of society saying “And you lot can f**k off too”. So my expectation is that they wait until conference (with the coverage that brings) and that’s when you’ll see them putting forward some of their plans.

I think this is the danger at the moment with keeping quiet.

Phase 1 of the project is complete - the public appear to be losing faith in the Tories (finally!).  But phase 2 has to be about combating that apathy and being a party that people will actually get out and vote for.  At the moment the biggest criticism of the government is that they're awol and it would really help combat the narrative that Labour are just the same if they weren't on holiday as well.

To be fair to Starmer, the common consensus was that after 2019 there was no chance that Labour could even win the next election and it was all going to be about damage limitation.  Starmer has overachieved in that sense, but it does feel a little bit like the prospect of actually winning an election and forming a government has come up a bit more quickly than they expected and caught them off guard a bit. 

[Lusty]

Then it can be Labour implementing Tory policy?

Great!

Oh no not this again.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Then it can be Labour implementing Tory policy?

Great!

Talk me through that. Doesn't make any sense to me.

[Elmo!]

We don't have time to wait for a general election. Honestly even waiting for conference is too much. They nned to start pressuring the government to take action on cost of living/energy prices now.

The government are putting in place plans for rolling blackouts, and shutting down the railways and public buildings. Businesses are going to be going bust left right and centre due to the dual effects of crippling energy costs (they don't have price caps) and no one having any discretionary spending money left after paying their bills.

We're looking at a huge recession with no easy way out. I'm not sure people grasp how fucking dire this situation is.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

I think this is the danger at the moment with keeping quiet.

Phase 1 of the project is complete - the public appear to be losing faith in the Tories (finally!).  But phase 2 has to be about combating that apathy and being a party that people will actually get out and vote for.  At the moment the biggest criticism of the government is that they're awol and it would really help combat the narrative that Labour are just the same if they weren't on holiday as well.

To be fair to Starmer, the common consensus was that after 2019 there was no chance that Labour could even win the next election and it was all going to be about damage limitation.  Starmer has overachieved in that sense, but it does feel a little bit like the prospect of actually winning an election and forming a government has come up a bit more quickly than they expected and caught them off guard a bit. 

" At the moment the biggest criticism of the government is that they're awol and it would really help combat the narrative that Labour are just the same if they weren't on holiday as well " - is a really good point.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

We don't have time to wait for a general election. Honestly even waiting for conference is too much. They nned to start pressuring the government to take action on cost of living/energy prices now.

The government are putting in place plans for rolling blackouts, and shutting down the railways and public buildings. Businesses are going to be going bust left right and centre due to the dual effects of crippling energy costs (they don't have price caps) and no one having any discretionary spending money left after paying their bills.

We're looking at a huge recession with no easy way out. I'm not sure people grasp how fucking dire this situation is.

Well I'm not sure about that

The news is full of it every single day (Though I don't read the right-wing rags, so probably they are saying that everything is fine)


But Labour can't actually do anything about that at the moment as they aren't in power. There is also no one to address and the news is more interested in the Tory Tumblers.

[Elmo!]

But Labour can't actually do anything about that at the moment as they aren't in power. There is also no one to address and the news is more interested in the Tory Tumblers.

You keep saying this when you have already been given an example where Labour managed to pressurise the Tories into doing something (the windfall tax). There may be no chance of Johnson doing anything now wbut these things take weeks to build the narrative and get the public onboard - they should start now.

[Kenny's Jacket]

Well it didn't feel like that to me. It seemed that they were distancing themselves from something that might be used against them by the Tories and their paymasters.

But Labour is intrinsically to Trade Unions, its not going to wash with floater voters who assume Labour = Trade Unions. it just pisses off those who think the least Labour can do is support the unions.  Its like asking LFC to distance itself from being Scouse.  Most wont buy it and it will piss off loyal fans.

Can we agree that for Labour to get into power, they need to make themselves attractive to the largest demographic they can and that alienating any area would result in a reduction of their chances. 

Who are they making themselves attractive to by doing/saying nothing?

This was the problem with Corbyn (Sorry! ) - he appealed so, so much to a new and vibrant part of the Labour Party that was absolutely wonderful to see and a joy to follow. But equally he alienated just as many for the same reasons why he was so popular with one demographic.

2
In JCs worst election he got more votes than Blair did in his 2005 election win.

In JCs best election  result he got more votes than Blair did in 2001 and 2005 wins.
Its possible to win an election and have policies. 

[stewil007]

In JCs worst election he got more votes than Blair did in his 2005 election win.

In JCs best election  result he got more votes than Blair did in 2001 and 2005 wins.
Its possible to win an election and have policies. 

Surely the important bit there is he lost, and Blair won.  The fact the vote was strong for Corbyn, pushed more of the silent tories out to vote for Johnson is the worrying bit.

[thaddeus]

Maybe I've fallen into Johnson and Cummings trap but I really don't see what Labour can do right now (beyond positioning themselves - however that may be - for the next General Election).  The government still carry a huge majority and even during the lowest of lows under Johnson there was no noticeable indication that many, if any, Tory MPs were going to vote with the opposition on anything.

Labour should be holding the government to account of course but we've seen for years now that any question is answered with propaganda and bullshit that just about passes the "we didn't knowingly lie" test.  There'll be talk of "record sums being invested", "being on the side of those most in need" and no doubt some reference to the idiotic note left by Liam Byrne in 2010.

It's grim and defeatist but the best Labour can do right now is throttle the Tories in the polls and hope they respond with some policies that benefit the masses.

[Yorkykopite]

Obviously Corbyn isn't the answer since Labour suffered its heaviest defeat since 1935 under his leadership. No one wants any more of that! But I wish it had been Starmer who had made Gordon Brown's speech at Edinburgh this week. I also wish Starmer could take a bit of Mick Lynch's boldness on board. I know Lynch doesn't have to get elected and can therefore say more or less what he likes, but a lot of what he does say seems to me to be common sense and potentially very attractive to voters.

[oldfordie]

I suppose it’s (like everything else) a difficult balancing act for Starmer and Labour. Up until now, keeping their heads down and letting the Tories implode has served them well in terms of polling, so I guess the questions that they will be asking are… Do we need to make ourselves visible in this moment of crisis? And if so, when and how do we go about doing this? I think there is still a perception of Labour in the wider public of them being “no different” to the Tories, and not in a left-wing “Starmer’s a Tory” kind of way, but more in a “Labour are just as useless, why should we trust them?” kind of way. What would be potentially bad for Labour is them coming out and going hard at such a time that the response to it is ambivalence or worse a big section of society saying “And you lot can f**k off too”. So my expectation is that they wait until conference (with the coverage that brings) and that’s when you’ll see them putting forward some of their plans.

I don't think anyone will be able to sort this crisis out and balance the books. nobody expected the Torys to balance the books during the Covid Pandemic and nobody should be insisting we should balance the books for this year either but that's just gifting the Torys a good excuse for leaving the country f,, and unprepared for this crisis, I think Starmer has some short term solutions that will help people. it's actually absurd to think he has no opinions on what needs to be done to help but he also knows he will need to justify those opinions as they will be easy to attack. everyone has to be on the same page but that won't happen.
 I know how McDonald and the left are looking at this crisis, they will be quiet happy about it as it's a opportunity to attack the Capitalist system. am not being unfair here, this was his reaction to the 2008 crash, it wasn't about helping people through the crisis, it was joy, something he had been waiting for years to happen. some things do need to change but Labour shouldn't be listening to McDonnald and others who will do more harm than good in the long run.

[Father Ted]

If your system is crashing so regularly, still hasn't recovered from the last crash, doesn't enable ordinary people to live any kind of life despite them working their lives away, doesn't provide functional public services, doesn't let an increasing number of people even dream of owning a home or retiring, and is actively destroying the planet you live on I think it's fair enough to have some mild criticisms tbf.

[Kenny's Jacket]

Surely the important bit there is he lost, and Blair won.  The fact the vote was strong for Corbyn, pushed more of the silent tories out to vote for Johnson is the worrying bit.

I might be mis interpreting your post, but do you mean Corbyn polling well got more tories out to vote?

[Father Ted]

I might be mis interpreting your post, but do you mean Corbyn polling well got more tories out to vote?

It clearly did, they were terrified they might have to pay some more tax and the endless media assaults on Corbyn motivated them out to avoid Britain falling to the woke menace.

[stewil007]

I might be mis interpreting your post, but do you mean Corbyn polling well got more tories out to vote?

something got people out to vote for the tories and Johnson, I don't think its as simple as just Corbyn polling well, that may have been a factor.

[Elmo!]

I think "Getting Brexit Done" was a bigger factor but Corbyn will have played a part.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

You keep saying this when you have already been given an example where Labour managed to pressurise the Tories into doing something (the windfall tax). There may be no chance of Johnson doing anything now wbut these things take weeks to build the narrative and get the public onboard - they should start now.

Yeah but there was someone actually there to pressurise wasn't there and there wasn't a political eruption dominating everything?

I might be wrong about that, but the circumstances are different at present than 'normal' - or as close to normal as this dysfunctional shit sandwich can be at present..

[So… Howard Philips]

I think "Getting Brexit Done" was a bigger factor but Corbyn will have played a part.

And Johnson as well.

Whilst his faults have become more than apparent now he ‘looked’ to have more charisma than the dutiful, by the book  Corbyn or his full predecessor, May.

[thaddeus]

If your system is crashing so regularly, still hasn't recovered from the last crash, doesn't enable ordinary people to live any kind of life despite them working their lives away, doesn't provide functional public services, doesn't let an increasing number of people even dream of owning a home or retiring, and is actively destroying the planet you live on I think it's fair enough to have some mild criticisms tbf.

Recent events have exacerbated things but the system is undoubtedly broken.  Globalisation has had many benefits but it's allowed those with the means to accelerate the "race to the bottom" for those without.  I remember Cameron retorting such criticisms by saying it's no good coming out with "Stop the world, I want to get off" and he was supposedly the respectable face of conservatism.

As it stands corporations have more power that governments as it's so easy to relocate if the host country start being a bit mean.  There'll always be a country somewhere keen to welcome you with a subsidy and laxer regulations.  It needs genuine global partnerships to resolve but that looks less likely than for a long time.

The EU, despite its faults, have tried to maintain standards and have recently began targeting tax avoidance and fraud with the Anti-Tax Avoidance Directive.  Not that we'll benefit from any of that.

How Labour challenge that and how they sell it to the electorate is beyond me.  Not being front and centre and cheerleading the race to the bottom like the Tories would be something!

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Obviously Corbyn isn't the answer since Labour suffered its heaviest defeat since 1935 under his leadership. No one wants any more of that! But I wish it had been Starmer who had made Gordon Brown's speech at Edinburgh this week. I also wish Starmer could take a bit of Mick Lynch's boldness on board. I know Lynch doesn't have to get elected and can therefore say more or less what he likes, but a lot of what he does say seems to me to be common sense and potentially very attractive to voters.

I'd love to see Lynch as Labour leader to be honest - think he's capable, charismatic and has actually worked for a living.

[Kenny's Jacket]

something got people out to vote for the tories and Johnson, I don't think its as simple as just Corbyn polling well, that may have been a factor.

Corbybn being portrayed as a Marxist bogey man in the media wont have helped. The general point is, you can get enough votes to win an election by having left policies.  You just need an establishment face to deliver them.

I was going to mention "getting Brtexit done" and "oven ready deal" too, but Elmo beat me to it

[Byrnee]

In JCs worst election he got more votes than Blair did in his 2005 election win.

In JCs best election  result he got more votes than Blair did in 2001 and 2005 wins.
Its possible to win an election and have policies. 

Numbers don't matter if you lose. Trump got more votes in 2020 than 2016, but he lost by ten million more votes. More importantly if those votes are all in cities and safe seats they are relatively useless, they need to be spread nationwide to win constituencies.

If Liverpool win 1-0 against Everton one season then lost 3-2 the next, who cares if we scored more?

Blair's government won 3 elections in a row because they had policies and were effective. So I take your last point but pointing to the results of the worst election defeat in near a century isn't the best way to prove it.

[Lusty]

I'd love to see Lynch as Labour leader to be honest - think he's capable, charismatic and has actually worked for a living.

He's been hugely impressive on the strikes, but I think he might still be a lexiter unfortunately.

[oldfordie]

I'd love to see Lynch as Labour leader to be honest - think he's capable, charismatic and has actually worked for a living.

He's in a different league to anyone on the left. he has original thoughts based on what he believes is right for us all rather than ideology. brilliant.  biggest asset though is he knows how to play the game.  he can be a left winger and a militant but he knows the importance of not giving the media etc the ammo to attack him for it.

[Yorkykopite]

Corbybn being portrayed as a Marxist bogey man in the media wont have helped. The general point is, you can get enough votes to win an election by having left policies.  You just need an establishment face to deliver them.

It wasn't Labour's economic programme at the last election that lost votes or deterred voters. In truth it was mild social democracy, if a bit incoherent.  Where Labour lost votes was firstly on its support for Brexit, which disillusioned Remainers who felt the issue was still 'alive'. And secondly, traditional Labour voters didn't like a leader who they rightly saw as having a long track record of consorting with extremist oddballs from regimes unfriendly to Britain and the West. These associations weren't invented by the press. They were a proud part of Corbyn's own past. The tipping point was the Salisbury attack of course. After Corbyn had taken the side of the Russians there was no way he could recover.

[Yorkykopite]

An excoriating attack on the Conservative party from....the Spectator. Yes, the Spectator!

 https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-crisis-at-the-heart-of-the-modern-conservative-party

[So… Howard Philips]

An excoriating attack on the Conservative party from....the Spectator. Yes, the Spectator!

 https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-crisis-at-the-heart-of-the-modern-conservative-party

Bloody hell!

Well written and to the point.

[Kenny's Jacket]

It wasn't Labour's economic programme at the last election that lost votes or deterred voters. In truth it was mild social democracy, if a bit incoherent.  Where Labour lost votes was firstly on its support for Brexit, which disillusioned Remainers who felt the issue was still 'alive'. And secondly, traditional Labour voters didn't like a leader who they rightly saw as having a long track record of consorting with extremist oddballs from regimes unfriendly to Britain and the West. These associations weren't invented by the press. They were a proud part of Corbyn's own past. The tipping point was the Salisbury attack of course. After Corbyn had taken the side of the Russians there was no way he could recover.

My post you replied to was in conversation about the notion that people voted Tory because of Corbyn.

But his first more successful came on the back of him wanting to invoke article 50 the very next day.
It did worse (2nd GE) when the shadow brexit secretary (whatever happened to him?)  announced a 2nd referendum option against the leaders wishes. 

Here is the bogey mans response to Salisbury
https://twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/973971196889980929?lang=en
The attack in Salisbury was an appalling act of violence, which we condemn in the strongest terms.

The Russian authorities must be held to account on the basis of the evidence and our response must be both decisive and proportionate.

Which part dont you like mate?

[thaddeus]

An excoriating attack on the Conservative party from....the Spectator. Yes, the Spectator!

 https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-crisis-at-the-heart-of-the-modern-conservative-party

It's a very well written piece by a columnist I'm not at all familiar with.  It looks like it's his first column for The Spectator (others can be seen here: https://muckrack.com/john-oxley/articles).  As he describes himself in the column he does seem to be "right of centre" as opposed to the lunatic fringe that mostly write for The Spectator.  It will be interesting to see if he's invited back for a second go.

The column itself did little to raise my optimism.  Whether the Tories are evil or incompetent, or both, doesn't make all that much difference right now.

[filopastry]

An excoriating attack on the Conservative party from....the Spectator. Yes, the Spectator!

 https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-crisis-at-the-heart-of-the-modern-conservative-party

Agree with pretty much all of that, its actually shocking to see how few ideas this govt has to deal with the myriad of issues the country is facing, there isn't really any serious economic policy at all

[Father Ted]

Who needs one when you blame everything on imaginary bogeymen or position yourselves as the solution to the problems you caused?

Obviously the cost of living crisis will test that flimsy strategy to it's limits.

[ianburns252]

Conference is only a month away. No doubt we'll be hearing concrete policies then.

As it is anything said now will probably get lost during this tory leadership contest and I believe conference is the best setting to put forth the vision, policies and ideals that we'll put to the country going into 2023 and beyond to a GE - probably in January 2025. A GE will either be incredibly soon i.e. October 2023 or as late as it can be which is January 2025. As the recession will be at its worst in the whole of 2024.

Oh and btw Zarah Sultana is as useful an MP as Harry Maguire is as a centre back. Thankfully Sultana will be deselected soon enough.

More importantly, thankfully, Harry Maguire won't be!

[Dr. Beaker]

An excoriating attack on the Conservative party from....the Spectator. Yes, the Spectator!

 https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-crisis-at-the-heart-of-the-modern-conservative-party

Its like no one has any idea why they came into politics. And that's probably it. A one issue party that has got Brexit done - or as much of it as they can be arsed with - and now they just see it as an all day drinking club.

[west_london_red]

Well I'm not sure about that

The news is full of it every single day (Though I don't read the right-wing rags, so probably they are saying that everything is fine)


But Labour can't actually do anything about that at the moment as they aren't in power. There is also no one to address and the news is more interested in the Tory Tumblers.

Andy no ones expecting Labour to fix the issues, but they do need to have policies in place. An Opposition just opposes, a Government in Waiting which is what Starmer is aiming for has to also have solutions as to how they would fix a problem if/when they are the Government.