Topic: Trent Alexander-Arnold

[nayia2002]

Must have some issues with mo lately as there was a few times during the game tonight he chose to pass it back to the defence or into the midfield when salah was making runs. 

At fault again for their goal! 😡

Sort it out lad! 

[afc tukrish]

Must have some issues with mo lately
 

Body language police made an arrest yet?

[Ravishing Rick Dude]

If he retires today, are people going to remember him as a great defender or a great footballer?

[Dree]

He always had midfielders covering him, he has been a "false rightback" if we can call him that.

Yeah this is exactly it! If he’s going to be an attacking RB we need pressure on the ball on turnovers. The goal last night, Napoli, and United, the perfect through ball into the channel was so easy as our pressing was poor. We could ask Trent to compensate by defending in line with the CBs or on the turn, but then he just becomes a normal RB. Klopp needs to sort this. Talk of Ramsay surprises me as if he wouldn’t constantly get caught in the channel with no genuine RCM.

[Knight]

Most definitely. Salah didn’t put pressure on the ball for their goal last night. That said, Trent was in the right position to cover and just chose not to follow his man. And then he loped back. It’s all very well saying he’s not getting the help he needs and he’ll sometimes be out of position, and those 2 things are making him look worse than he is right now. BUT, he’s got to do his job when he is in position. He’s got to react to what’s happening around him. He needed to notice there was no pressure on the back yesterday, he needed to notice the run, he needed to track it. Klopp was totally right to say in his interview that you can’t stop every ball and it’s about overall performance rather than obsessive focus on individual moments. It’s just that what we saw from Trent last night for their goal isn’t an isolated moment. He’s being exposed by teaming failings but he’s also exposing the team on occasion with personal failings.

[keyop]

Has there ever been a defender more debated and scrutinised by fans or the media than Trent?

He'll make mistakes sometimes and hit patches of bad form, but it all needs a massive dose of context when making any judgement.

Firstly, he is 23 and has had a meteoric rise from Academy player to arguably the best RB in world football in only 4 years. He's also a local lad upon which we heap far more expectation than many other players. That is all a huge responsibility for such a young man, who has been performing at an elite level since he was 19.

Secondly, I can't think of any defender who has ever been expected to do so much. He defends, he attacks, he creates, he's a goal threat, he takes corners, takes free kicks, can play in midfield, can play on the opposite flank, and gets up and down the pitch more than most defenders in Europe.

If he gets caught out occasionally or outmuscled, then that is the price we pay for all the good stuff. All the defensive greats also got caught out of position, or outmuscled by a physical attacker, or had the occasional bad spell, but I don't recall the same level of criticism or scrutiny. Every player needs to be held to high standards, but with Trent I think many often overlook his age, the multiple roles he plays, and the expectations he carries.

Consistency comes with experience, and experience comes with age. He could be playing with us for another 10 years, and I personally prefer to enjoy watching him play, and enjoy being blessed with such a generational talent rather than nit-picking an occasional defensive lapse or being out of position - many of which are an indirect result of the ridiculous amount of roles he plays in our team.

[Knight]

Fair enough, maybe you can only do one of those things. Personally, I've always been able to sit back enjoy, smile, sometimes even laugh, at some of the outrageous things he does with a football and also get slightly perturbed when things go wrong. They haven't gone wrong very often recently but the combination of tactics not working, and some poor form, is making them go wrong a little more often at the moment. And given this is a forum to discuss Liverpool I guess it's not surprising that these things are discussed. None of it means people don't think he's a joy to watch and have in our team.

[killer-heels]

Is there a creative player that has as much defensive responsibility as him? Cancelo maybe?

[Simplexity]

Is there a creative player that has as much defensive responsibility as him? Cancelo maybe?

I don't remember Cancelo popping up at the opposite flank much.

Nobody has ever played like Trent does now, for good reason.

[MonsLibpool]

Has there ever been a defender more debated and scrutinised by fans or the media than Trent?

He'll make mistakes sometimes and hit patches of bad form, but it all needs a massive dose of context when making any judgement.

Firstly, he is 23 and has had a meteoric rise from Academy player to arguably the best RB in world football in only 4 years. He's also a local lad upon which we heap far more expectation than many other players. That is all a huge responsibility for such a young man, who has been performing at an elite level since he was 19.

Secondly, I can't think of any defender who has ever been expected to do so much. He defends, he attacks, he creates, he's a goal threat, he takes corners, takes free kicks, can play in midfield, can play on the opposite flank, and gets up and down the pitch more than most defenders in Europe.

If he gets caught out occasionally or outmuscled, then that is the price we pay for all the good stuff. All the defensive greats also got caught out of position, or outmuscled by a physical attacker, or had the occasional bad spell, but I don't recall the same level of criticism or scrutiny. Every player needs to be held to high standards, but with Trent I think many often overlook his age, the multiple roles he plays, and the expectations he carries.

Consistency comes with experience, and experience comes with age. He could be playing with us for another 10 years, and I personally prefer to enjoy watching him play, and enjoy being blessed with such a generational talent rather than nit-picking an occasional defensive lapse or being out of position - many of which are an indirect result of the ridiculous amount of roles he plays in our team.

The issue is not him getting cut out. That can happen to any player. He just tends to stroll back when he's taken out of the game. Even Salah went on a 50 yard sprint to snuff out a counter in the second half and he did something similar against Everton.

[BER]

Woeful as he's been, he's had absolutely no cover on the counter. Is this a conscience tactical shift, is Elliot just not performing his duties - or was Henderson doing it instinctively all along?

[KirkVanHouten]

Woeful as he's been, he's had absolutely no cover on the counter. Is this a conscience tactical shift, is Elliot just not performing his duties - or was Henderson doing it instinctively all along?

Henderson is one of the hardest working and tactically astute players in the squad. Elliott doesn't have the same engine and defensive awareness but he has other strengths Henderson doesn't. If Henderson or Keita was available I don't think Elliott would be starting this game. We still have 8 out injured so I don't think it's a deliberate change.

[Kopenhagen]

He needs cover (and a rest!).

So unfair how he's slated constantly because of tactical instructions and being flogged all the time.

If he misses the World Cup because of his "form," he'll be sensational in the second half of the campaign. Chip on his shoulder + a rest means a dangerous Trent.

[keyop]

The issue is not him getting cut out. That can happen to any player. He just tends to stroll back when he's taken out of the game. Even Salah went on a 50 yard sprint to snuff out a counter in the second half and he did something similar against Everton.

'Tends to' suggests that's his standard style of play. A couple of examples highlighted by goons like Ferdinand or Neville doesn't characterise his whole game.

He's played 235 games for us already and he's only 23. Maybe, just maybe, there are rare occasions where he runs out of energy - especially after last season. Plus the fact almost everyone's been off their game and he's often trying to put out fires everywhere, or pushing up to help create something.

I think as he matures he'll realise he can't do it all (as Gerrard also used to think), and as others step up more to grab the game by the scruff of the neck, there'll be less pressure on him to be one of our main creative outlets.

[MonsLibpool]

'Tends to' suggests that's his standard style of play. A couple of examples highlighted by goons like Ferdinand or Neville doesn't characterise his whole game.

He's played 235 games for us already and he's only 23. Maybe, just maybe, there are rare occasions where he runs out of energy - especially after last season. Plus the fact almost everyone's been off their game and he's often trying to put out fires everywhere, or pushing up to help create something.

I think as he matures he'll realise he can't do it all (as Gerrard also used to think), and as others step up more to grab the game by the scruff of the neck, there'll be less pressure on him to be one of our main creative outlets.

It's becoming a recurring trend this season. It has happened against Unites, Napoli and Ajax already this season. Teams are exploiting it and it gives them hope even when they are behind. And that's in sharp contrast to Salah's defensive workrate.

I've never bought into the "Trent can't defend" bollocks but he's been poor this season. That doesn't mean he's not the same world class player that has won it all at 23. Sometimes, it's good to take players out for their own good but unfortunately we don't have another senior RB. Some might say Joe but he and Matip are injury prone and Matip can't play 3 games a week.

[Lastrador]

Henderson is one of the hardest working and tactically astute players in the squad. Elliott doesn't have the same engine and defensive awareness but he has other strengths Henderson doesn't. If Henderson or Keita was available I don't think Elliott would be starting this game. We still have 8 out injured so I don't think it's a deliberate change.

This is one thing the "Henderson can't play as a number 8" detractors don't understand. It's not only about the offensive part, although it's not like Harvey is creating much on that aspect, or ball retention and dribbling ability. For all his limitations, I think we are really missing the work rate and understanding Henderson had with Trent and Salah, when he played as an 8 on the right. He knows when to get wide to give Mo space to cut in. Where and when Trent likes the ball played to him, to play his crosses and long passes. He mostly covered Trent well defensively. Some blamed Hendo for some of the goals early last season, but I felt as the season progressed he did a far better job there.

Btw, I've heard someone say over here Elliot and Henderson have about the same defensive output in terms of numbers, which honestly had my head shaking for a while. I don't know how the tackles and interceptions numbers compare between the two, and I frankly don't care. Defence is much more nuanced than just tackles and interceptions. If someone honestly believes that Henderson and Elliot have the same defensive impact, then they don't know anything about football.

While I think Elliot has done well individually, I think his inclusion on that RCM has kind of disrupted our right side dynamic, just because of his strength and weakness as a player, and it's no wonder Salah and Trent's output and performance have suffered. I think if Harvey was scoring or assisting every other game, coupled with all the other things he brings to the table, you could make a case that his inclusion there has improved us as a team, but overall I don't think his level of performance is enough to warrant worse returns from Mo and Trent. I still love Elliot as a player and think he has a bright future here, but I don't think he impacts the game as much as we need him right now. He will in time though.

[Sheer Magnetism]

We can talk about if's and but's all day but the reality is that we're hugely vulnerable down our right hand side right now and it has to do with Trent continually being out of position and not tracking runners. If Hendo's out and we don't have that tactically adept player there then it's up to him to be more disciplined defensively. Elliott's still a teenager - it should be up to Trent as the senior player of the two to assume that tactical responsibility.

Or alternatively, we can look for Trent to fill the RCM space with Gomez as an option at right back. But the way he's currently playing as a right back simply isn't working in this system with these players.

[Clayton Bigsby]

Let him just patrol the right flank. He doesn't need to be popping up all over the gaff. Gerrard used to do that but there was a need then, this is a much more well oiled machine

[lionel_messias]

We can talk about if's and but's all day but the reality is that we're hugely vulnerable down our right hand side right now and it has to do with Trent continually being out of position and not tracking runners. If Hendo's out and we don't have that tactically adept player there then it's up to him to be more disciplined defensively. Elliott's still a teenager - it should be up to Trent as the senior player of the two to assume that tactical responsibility.

Or alternatively, we can look for Trent to fill the RCM space with Gomez as an option at right back. But the way he's currently playing as a right back simply isn't working in this system with these players.

Agree with this, it is a system problem really. I still think Trent might be the most talented of his generation. Yet, his naturally inclination is not to scan and track back always. I would be looking to give him more freedom and let him impose his attacking game, without the side losing out because of his defensive side. Let him play RCM or as a right winger in a new system.

Especially as Joe Gomez might need to play right back anyway, if he's going to get any games at this crucial point in his career. The more Trent combines with the likes of Mo, Nunez, Jota and Diaz the better it will be for all of them.

[Knight]

This is one thing the "Henderson can't play as a number 8" detractors don't understand. It's not only about the offensive part, although it's not like Harvey is creating much on that aspect, or ball retention and dribbling ability. For all his limitations, I think we are really missing the work rate and understanding Henderson had with Trent and Salah, when he played as an 8 on the right. He knows when to get wide to give Mo space to cut in. Where and when Trent likes the ball played to him, to play his crosses and long passes. He mostly covered Trent well defensively. Some blamed Hendo for some of the goals early last season, but I felt as the season progressed he did a far better job there.

Btw, I've heard someone say over here Elliot and Henderson have about the same defensive output in terms of numbers, which honestly had my head shaking for a while. I don't know how the tackles and interceptions numbers compare between the two, and I frankly don't care. Defence is much more nuanced than just tackles and interceptions. If someone honestly believes that Henderson and Elliot have the same defensive impact, then they don't know anything about football.

While I think Elliot has done well individually, I think his inclusion on that RCM has kind of disrupted our right side dynamic, just because of his strength and weakness as a player, and it's no wonder Salah and Trent's output and performance have suffered. I think if Harvey was scoring or assisting every other game, coupled with all the other things he brings to the table, you could make a case that his inclusion there has improved us as a team, but overall I don't think his level of performance is enough to warrant worse returns from Mo and Trent. I still love Elliot as a player and think he has a bright future here, but I don't think he impacts the game as much as we need him right now. He will in time though.

Henderson isn’t impacting on games with or without the ball from 8 these days. I’d be surprised if he’s doing the same as Elliot without the ball but it’s not pretty what he is doing. And of course he treats the ball like a hot potato at 8 which isn’t very helpful. The sooner we can get Fabinho and Henderson sharing minutes at 6, the better.

[Schmidt]

Henderson isn’t impacting on games with or without the ball from 8 these days. I’d be surprised if he’s doing the same as Elliot without the ball but it’s not pretty what he is doing. And of course he treats the ball like a hot potato at 8 which isn’t very helpful. The sooner we can get Fabinho and Henderson sharing minutes at 6, the better.

I find Henderson's decline tends to get a bit overstated, I don't think stats really do him justice as his work off the ball involves a lot of tracking runs, slowing down opposition attacks, covering passing lanes, etc. Gini was similar. Our worst performances have come with Jordan either not in the team or surrounded by other dysfunctional players, and the whole team started the season with a lethargy that can't be attributed to just age.

[pathetic]

Isn't the issue, though, that having a left-footed right-sided midfielder means that the ball comes inside from there and forces Mo further wide.  Mo further wide gets in the way of Trent.  I feel like we are sacrificing two of our generational talents (Mo/Trent) to get Harvey into the side.

This is exactly it. Why are we screwing the balance of the side for Harvey? I mean he's good, but he's not that good.

[Lastrador]

Henderson isn’t impacting on games with or without the ball from 8 these days. I’d be surprised if he’s doing the same as Elliot without the ball but it’s not pretty what he is doing. And of course he treats the ball like a hot potato at 8 which isn’t very helpful. The sooner we can get Fabinho and Henderson sharing minutes at 6, the better.

He does impact games with and without the ball as a number 8 these days. You obviously have an agenda that you feel you need to push, which is why after every iffy or bad match from him you can't wait to post in his thread, sometimes you don't even wait till the match is over. I get that you don't like him as a player, Babu clearly did a good job brainwashing you into this, but to say he doesn't impact games with or without the ball is so clearly false and stupid that only a person with no knowledge of football would say. A person who would admit to using another one's ideas as he is own, like you, and who can only paste stats to make a point. He obviously has an impact, you might not like it, you might think we can do without it, but he clearly does.

[Knight]

He does impact games with and without the ball as a number 8 these days. You obviously have an agenda that you feel you need to push, which is why after every iffy or bad match from him you can't wait to post in his thread, sometimes you don't even wait till the match is over. I get that you don't like him as a player, Babu clearly did a good job brainwashing you into this, but to say he doesn't impact games with or without the ball is so clearly false and stupid that only a person with no knowledge of football would say. A person who would admit to using another one's ideas as he is own, like you, and who can only paste stats to make a point. He obviously has an impact, you might not like it, you might think we can do without it, but he clearly does.

This is such a beautiful post Lastrador. Top marks. There's the reference back to something I said years ago, which I think was a reasonable comment about being influenced by those with more expertise than me and deliberately not trying to pass off other's opinions as my own, as if I'd come to them all by myself. Admittedly it was put in a slightly clumsy manner but it was jumped on as some sort of absurd and ridiculous thing to say. It's clearly had a huge impact on you for which I can only apologise.

Then there's the efforts to paint my contributions as some sort of brainwashed agenda, picking up on things I may or may not have posted in various threads at various points. Thanks for keeping up with my contributions.

Then there's the deliberate refusal to interpret what I meant by 'doesn't impact games' in a fair manner, a manner I would acknowledge as what i intended. Rather you read them in the most hyperbolic fashion possible, in an attempt to make me look silly.

It's top posting, it really is.

I think the last time you directed a comment at me it was about me being 'delighted' that Henderson was injured. This regular sniping does rather beg the question, am I obsessed with how bad I allegedly think Henderson is or are you obsessed with how bad I allegedly think Henderson is?

[El Lobo]

Without looking back at really old posts (which I know is a bit taboo), I'd probably go with the former Knight, just based on how often you have recently slated the captain in various different threads

[Knight]

Without looking back at really old posts (which I know is a bit taboo), I'd probably go with the former Knight, just based on how often you have recently slated the captain in various different threads

Lobo you're wonderfully predictable.

I actually just looked back at some of my comments from the last couple of weeks to find what I said in reply to Lastrador's 'delighted he's injured' comment. I've talked lots about the midfield, some about our shape and tactics, a little about Henderson. And of the comments in the Henderson thread, one was genuinely positive.

But yeah, I'm probably brainwashed.

[Johnny Foreigner]

He is 23-24 years old; local lad - humble - (does his posing etc which every 20+ does not - and he has at least something to back it up with), very nice - does a fair bit of charity/signings/just being around without informing the press). Winning everything for us - and being a major contributor - he can retire/play 200 games average, but still being a great lad.. he has played way too many games over a short period for being just too good/no replacements.. give hime some slack, pls

[El Lobo]

Lobo you're wonderfully predictable.

I actually just looked back at some of my comments from the last couple of weeks to find what I said in reply to Lastrador's 'delighted he's injured' comment. I've talked lots about the midfield, some about our shape and tactics, a little about Henderson. And of the comments in the Henderson thread, one was genuinely positive.

But yeah, I'm probably brainwashed.

I'm honestly not sure how you've built up even a few thousand posts without even a basic understanding of how a forum works, because you quite regularly seem put out that people reply to what you've posted, or offended that people have gone back and seen what you've posted previously. You post something blatantly hyperbolic and inflammatory in 'Henderson isn’t impacting on games with or without the ball from 8 these days' and then take great offence when someone tells you thats a bit silly. If you want people to interpret your posts differently to what you've actually posted then you know....I think thats more of a you problem than an everyone else problem.

[anandg_lfc]

Southgate is an idiot. Why pick trent as a 4th choice rb? He will never fit into that system.

Hope Southgate comes to his senses and picks someone else for the WC squad.

[Knight]

I'm honestly not sure how you've built up even a few thousand posts without even a basic understanding of how a forum works, because you quite regularly seem put out that people reply to what you've posted, or offended that people have gone back and seen what you've posted previously. You post something blatantly hyperbolic and inflammatory in 'Henderson isn’t impacting on games with or without the ball from 8 these days' and then take great offence when someone tells you thats a bit silly. If you want people to interpret your posts differently to what you've actually posted then you know....I think thats more of a you problem than an everyone else problem.

Forums often have a 'read as uncharitably as possible' approach and a desperate desire to nitpick. I'm as prone to this as anyone. But we should all try to do better! And yes, you should too because you're definitely prone to this.

It's entirely valid to make the point that Henderson isn't impacting on games with or without the ball. He doesn't keep the ball anywhere near as much as he should, he doesn't cover others anywhere near as much as he should, he is losing the ball in very costly positions on the pitch (this could be recency bias of course, we've conceded twice this season from him miscontrolling it but I doubt that'll continue), he is failing to track runners as much as he should. He is failing to impact the game as we would want an 8 to impact it. He's not the only one. That comment is being read as, 'Henderson isn't doing anything on a football pitch' but questioning what impact Henderson is having is not a silly point. 

It's actually quite easy this because if you want to see a player from 8 impact games with and without the ball, watch Thiago.

[El Lobo]

Forums often have a 'read as uncharitably as possible' approach and a desperate desire to nitpick. I'm as prone to this as anyone. But we should all try to do better! And yes, you should too because you're definitely prone to this.

It's entirely valid to make the point that Henderson isn't impacting on games with or without the ball. He doesn't keep the ball anywhere near as much as he should, he doesn't cover others anywhere near as much as he should, he is losing the ball in very costly position on the pitch, he is failing to track runners as much as he should. He is failing to impact the game as we would want an 8 to impact it. He's not the only one. That comment is being read as, 'Henderson isn't doing anything on a football pitch' but questioning what impact Henderson is having is not a silly point. 

It's actually quite easy this because if you want to see a player from 8 impact games with and without the ball, watch Thiago.

I dont really see any desire to nit-pick or read as uncharitably as possible. You've followed up quite a number of negative posts about our captain with one saying he doesn't influence the game at all offensively or defensively, so I really dont think its particularly outrageous that a poster has sought to defend him. Not really that crazy. Probably also pretty annoying that he wrote a fairly long post and got 'Henderson isn’t impacting on games with or without the ball from 8 these days' in reply.

And your reply to Last just summed it up, suggesting he was 'stalking you' (an old classic when someone calls you out), again your criticism of anyone mentioning older posts of yours, that something you'd said had a 'huge impact' on him, that he was sniping at you, sarcasm about it being a 'top post'. Same with your reply to me. 'Wonderfully predictable'. If you're coming across as having an agenda....then you're coming across as having an agenda. And you do, for the reasons mentioned. And have done for most of your time on RAWK, which is why Last went back to older posts.

I dont need to watch Thiago, we all know what a player he is. He's probably the best CM in the world right now, certainly one of them. I dont really have a desire to slate one of our players to big up another. Because of course, we could do it with a few right now couldnt we? 'If you want to see a player at CB impact games with and without the ball, watch Matip. If you want to see a player on the wing impact games with and without the ball, watch Diaz. If you want to see a player from full back impact games with and without the ball, watch Tsimikas.'

[sattapaartridge]

Dont know how we're slandering Henderson and lauding Thiago on this, this is a thread about Trent Alexander Arnold.

I really love Trent, but his performances from an attacking view point seem "forced" almost Gerrard like, when we're not winning, he shows a desperation to want to affect play and dictate it, but also leaving his duties to our weaker centre back. I do think Trent can play the right sided 8, as suggested, but we'll need someone just as good as Trent to play a more disciplined and traditional wingback role, if we were to do that. I dont think Klopp wants to move Trent out of position, but if Klopp is saying "yeah fucking do what you want mate", then i think this is dangerous. Cos thats how he is playing sometimes. You see him in the box, in the centre circle, on the left, right, everywhere. Unless Elliot or Salah is going to cover him, he shouldnt go.

I think he's world class, and he wants to show it. Maybe he needs some ego-curbing, but he's a world beater.

[Knight]

I dont really see any desire to nit-pick or read as uncharitably as possible. You've followed up quite a number of negative posts about our captain with one saying he doesn't influence the game at all offensively or defensively, so I really dont think its particularly outrageous that a poster has sought to defend him. Not really that crazy. Probably also pretty annoying that he wrote a fairly long post and got 'Henderson isn’t impacting on games with or without the ball from 8 these days' in reply.

We'll agree to differ on the nature of forums Lobo but of course even as you're claiming forums aren't like this you imply I thought it outrageous he defended him? Feel free to correct me. But of course I don't take exception with defences of Henderson, I appreciate people engaging on arguments and I may well have been too negative with the, 'he's not impacting games'. But we didn't get a post like that from Last. We got a highly personal attack on me ('clearly have an agenda', and 'am brainwashed') and dismissive comments about my post being "stupid". That's what I wasn't impressed by not the fact he had the temerity to defend Henderson. He didn't seek to clarify what I mean by 'not impacting games' if he needed that clarification. You go round calling people names and telling them their posts are stupid and you get a sarcastic response, what a surprise. But it's ok, Lobo will be along to gang up on someone.

As for the line you quote being my reply. But of course it wasn't. The selective quoting is another forum trick.

And your reply to Last just summed it up, suggesting he was 'stalking you' (an old classic when someone calls you out), again your criticism of anyone mentioning older posts of yours, that something you'd said had a 'huge impact' on him, that he was sniping at you, sarcasm about it being a 'top post'. Same with your reply to me. 'Wonderfully predictable'. If you're coming across as having an agenda....then you're coming across as having an agenda. And you do, for the reasons mentioned. And have done for most of your time on RAWK, which is why Last went back to older posts.

He's stalking me? Well that would be unpleasant. I simply made the point that he's keeping up with my contributions and clearly remembers one quite well. But yes, stalking makes it all sound so much worse than what I actually said so good job with that.

I dont need to watch Thiago, we all know what a player he is. He's probably the best CM in the world right now, certainly one of them. I dont really have a desire to slate one of our players to big up another. Because of course, we could do it with a few right now couldnt we? 'If you want to see a player at CB impact games with and without the ball, watch Matip. If you want to see a player on the wing impact games with and without the ball, watch Diaz. If you want to see a player from full back impact games with and without the ball, watch Tsimikas.'

I won't reprise my, and many other's, comments about the midfield. Some of our players aren't playing very well at the moment. The midfield, across the board, is having more significant issues. And if you want to see the sort of defensive, controlling performances we need from 8, you look at Thiago. Henderson isn't the solution on the other side, it probably isn't Elliot either. Keita would help.

Apologies for derailing the thread. I think Lastrador is totally right to pick up the RCM being important for the way Trent plays and so they're relevant to the discussion but not in this way.

[Historical Fool]

I dont really see any desire to nit-pick or read as uncharitably as possible. You've followed up quite a number of negative posts about our captain with one saying he doesn't influence the game at all offensively or defensively, so I really dont think its particularly outrageous that a poster has sought to defend him. Not really that crazy. Probably also pretty annoying that he wrote a fairly long post and got 'Henderson isn’t impacting on games with or without the ball from 8 these days' in reply.

And your reply to Last just summed it up, suggesting he was 'stalking you' (an old classic when someone calls you out), again your criticism of anyone mentioning older posts of yours, that something you'd said had a 'huge impact' on him, that he was sniping at you, sarcasm about it being a 'top post'. Same with your reply to me. 'Wonderfully predictable'. If you're coming across as having an agenda....then you're coming across as having an agenda. And you do, for the reasons mentioned. And have done for most of your time on RAWK, which is why Last went back to older posts.

I dont need to watch Thiago, we all know what a player he is. He's probably the best CM in the world right now, certainly one of them. I dont really have a desire to slate one of our players to big up another. Because of course, we could do it with a few right now couldnt we? 'If you want to see a player at CB impact games with and without the ball, watch Matip. If you want to see a player on the wing impact games with and without the ball, watch Diaz. If you want to see a player from full back impact games with and without the ball, watch Tsimikas.'

To be honest, I think that Henderson may have issues competing and impacting at 8-ball these days. But this is all conjecture, I hardly watch him play.

[El Lobo]

To be honest, I think that Henderson may have issues competing and impacting at 8-ball these days. But this is all conjecture, I hardly watch him play.

He's probably better at 8-ball than football.

[afc tukrish]

He's probably better at 8-ball than football.

Awkward cue stroke...

[Lastrador]

This is such a beautiful post Lastrador. Top marks. There's the reference back to something I said years ago, which I think was a reasonable comment about being influenced by those with more expertise than me and deliberately not trying to pass off other's opinions as my own, as if I'd come to them all by myself. Admittedly it was put in a slightly clumsy manner but it was jumped on as some sort of absurd and ridiculous thing to say. It's clearly had a huge impact on you for which I can only apologise.

Then there's the efforts to paint my contributions as some sort of brainwashed agenda, picking up on things I may or may not have posted in various threads at various points. Thanks for keeping up with my contributions.

Then there's the deliberate refusal to interpret what I meant by 'doesn't impact games' in a fair manner, a manner I would acknowledge as what i intended. Rather you read them in the most hyperbolic fashion possible, in an attempt to make me look silly.

It's top posting, it really is.

I think the last time you directed a comment at me it was about me being 'delighted' that Henderson was injured. This regular sniping does rather beg the question, am I obsessed with how bad I allegedly think Henderson is or are you obsessed with how bad I allegedly think Henderson is?

There was nothing fair or well-meaning about your post. It just was a hyperbolic comment with no substance made by a poster with a clear-as-day agenda. A poster who has no views of his own and just parrots other people's ideas, and whose only form of proving a point is pasting up stats. And I'm not obsessed with any part of you or your stolen ideas, you're not worth two seconds of my time. You're just an annoyance, an unavoidable one sadly. Every single match in which Henderson plays in, whether we win, draw or lose, his thread will bump up with a comment from you lambasting him, usually with some generic nonsense, just to spark the subsequent pile-on. And I'm the one who's obsessed? Please. 

You're a reminder of how so many people nowadays don't try to understand football or have any meaningful discussion. They just push on their agendas and hold on to their bias, with no place to be challenged or proved wrong. Just a deep dive into cynism. They will usually post magnificent generic fluff like "he doesn't impact the game as a number 8 with or without the ball", and when challenged either act as if you're a good faith actor who's unfairly maligned, or conjure any type of contextless stats to prove their point.

And I don't need to challenge any of your views about how he doesn't impact the game as a number 8. The post you originally replied to had some of MY THOUGHTS about how he still positively impacts the game as an 8 on the right, even if he had a poor start to the season. Do I think it's his best position nowadays? No, but he still has a positive impact there, even if you are meant to discredit every single contribution from him.

He doesn't keep the ball anywhere near as much as he should, he doesn't cover others anywhere near as much as he should, he is losing the ball in very costly positions on the pitch (this could be recency bias of course, we've conceded twice this season from him miscontrolling it but I doubt that'll continue), he is failing to track runners as much as he should.

These are the kind of points you make that have me convinced that either you don't understand the game or you just repeat other people's ideas. What is your basis to suggest he doesn't "keep the ball anywhere near as much as he should" or "he doesn't cover others anywhere near as much as he should"? What level of keeping the ball and covering should he do to be sufficient? I don't see any problems with his covering or him keeping possession this season. Those two errors you mentioned, one was a bad pass, yes, an error he rarely makes. The other was a botched interception, which he botched because he had to overstretch. Not really a case of him losing possession of a dangerous possession, as he never had possession of the ball, to begin with. That goal had several errors from several players, some of which were more fundamental errors like Trent's bad pass or Fabinho going to press when he was covering Virgil, than a botched interception product of what was probably an injured hammy, as we later found out. But the fact that you chose to blame Henderson for that goal, over all the rest, just speaks volumes, doesn't it?

[Knight]

It’s remarkable that with all the contributions I make on this forum it’s the few about Henderson, not all of them negative, which so disrupt your equilibrium. You really needn’t get so negative or personal Lastrador. Chill. You even think 8 isn’t his best position these days so we’re basically in agreement!

Just on the losing the ball. If you don’t watch Henderson at 8 and notice how prone he is to coughing up possession perhaps you’re being overly affected by a bias the other way. He’s never been brilliant under pressure or on the half turn. He has games where he gives the ball away loads. And this is a thing commented on by loads of people. It’s not just me, or those who’ve brainwashed me.

It’s so weird Last. You keep harking back to me parroting over peoples opinions, acknowledging my debt to other people and stealing other peoples ideas. Seriously, are you ok? I mean it’s impressive I manage to do all 3 at once, you’d of thought it’d be hard to steal ideas if I’m acknowledging my debt to other people, but also, it’s such an odd way of approaching a poster. Continually referring to a comment I made literally years ago. I’m sorry for replying to your post with what you clearly understood to be a dismissive post of my own, I should have been more careful with the way I engaged with your post. But this is getting silly now.

[Coolie High]

So much ado about nothing.

[Ghost Town]

So much ado about nothing.

At least that had a Hero...