Author Topic: Universal Basic Income  (Read 14929 times)

Offline west_london_red

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Re: Universal Basic Income
« Reply #80 on: July 16, 2020, 12:33:21 pm »
AI will change things, no doubt, but we will adapt. Societies have gone through changes before. What we get is for example a change when everyone was growing their own food and then we get a more efficient way to produce it. Fewer people worked with food, but then we got jobs in factories. So everyone did that. Then we came up with better ways to produce. Fewer people worked in typical factory floor jobs. What happened? We got lots and lots of service jobs. Introduce AI. Do we expect we can't adapt again? I believe we will adapt, but we can't see how just yet.

When we think of AI, I believe we can compare with going back to 1990, thinking nobody needs a mobile phone. People didn't know or care about the Internet and nobody expected people to need a mobile phone. Partly because nobody had one, so you could only call people on their home number anyway. And the phones weighed a lot and were extremely expensive. Who would want to use that? Maybe a surgeon on duty had a need for it. Who else? Society changed, we adapted. We can't predict all that follows with AI and we shouldn't introduce UBI because of our guesses now.

I think this is a very valid point and one that gets overlooked by people advocating UBI because of automation. I would hazard a guess that similar concerns would have been raised during the industrial revolution, the introduction of scientific management/Taylorism, Fordism and McDonaldisation but in the end society overcame them one way or another.
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Re: Universal Basic Income
« Reply #81 on: July 16, 2020, 12:39:30 pm »
but in the end society overcame them one way or another.

Or society found other ways to invent jobs because of the false idea that everybody has to be employed at some kind of drudgery.
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Offline Zeb

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Re: Universal Basic Income
« Reply #82 on: July 16, 2020, 12:41:54 pm »
I’m not sure UBI means the abolition of employment laws & rights to create an environment to allow a race to the bottom in employment practices.

Similarly I’m not sure there would be a race to the bottom wage wise. Some would decide not to work, others would decide to work less hours, and it would mean the worker pool may be less than currently - so no over supply for employers to take advantage of. Also, if the level of disposable income goes up then you’d likely see an increased demand for products, and therefore an increased demand for employees, and again this doesn’t allow for a race to the bottom wage wise.

It doesn't 'mean' it, because policy could be designed to try and mitigate it and level of UBI is actually a big factor. Speenhamland effect is a good real world example of how employers make bank off wage supplements. Anne Gray's old work on UBI is also useful for pointing out how many other policy measures are also needed because it doesn't change the systemic problems we have.
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Offline lobsterboy

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Re: Universal Basic Income
« Reply #83 on: July 16, 2020, 01:03:57 pm »
No incentive to work then is there?  Why should someone in a job get paid the same for someone sitting on their arse at home?

But you would get this if you worked as well? So those in work would have their wage plus this so it wouldn't be the same at all.
Sitting on their arse at home also implies that those out of work are there by choice rather than situation/cuts/changing economy.
The world is changing, technology is swallowing jobs and opportunity, there has to be a rethink on the current system.

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Re: Universal Basic Income
« Reply #84 on: July 16, 2020, 01:09:50 pm »
If for example the market was flooded with sausages, the price of sausages would go down regardless of how much money people have.
The argument of we don't want everyone to have money as the price of everything would go up makes absolutely no sense to me. This has nothing to do with UBI, but we should really be striving to create a world where wealth inequality isn't as great. The wage disparity between the top and the bottom has increased exponentially in the last few decades and has had a detrimental affect on society.

Wealth inequality is about power though. You have the wealth, you have the power so you can shape the world how you want, regardless of how wrong/right your idea is.
They aren't giving that power up, not in a million years.

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Re: Universal Basic Income
« Reply #85 on: July 16, 2020, 01:23:56 pm »
No incentive to work then is there?  Why should someone in a job get paid the same for someone sitting on their arse at home?

There are enough people who for some reason feel they have to work, are happier when working etc.

Let them have the essential/meaningful jobs. Let those who hate work spend their time doing something else worthwhile. Initially there will be a lot of "sitting on their arse at home" going on, but in the long term most of these people will get bored and start doing creative things that are interesting to themselves.

One result of this is that people are happier over all. General health and well-being improve.

We are still suffering from a weird and outdated "protestant work ethic" thing.
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Re: Universal Basic Income
« Reply #86 on: July 16, 2020, 03:10:40 pm »
There are enough people who for some reason feel they have to work, are happier when working etc.

Let them have the essential/meaningful jobs. Let those who hate work spend their time doing something else worthwhile. Initially there will be a lot of "sitting on their arse at home" going on, but in the long term most of these people will get bored and start doing creative things that are interesting to themselves.

One result of this is that people are happier over all. General health and well-being improve.

We are still suffering from a weird and outdated "protestant work ethic" thing.
You’ve made an awful lot of assumptions here with no evidence.

On the previous page Elmo claimed a universal basic income would be ‘transformative’.  Age is correct when he states that the outcomes would be unpredictable.

An awful lot of the claims for it are based on speculation and utter guesswork, and without any significant pilot studies it would be an absurd course of action to take en mass.
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Offline west_london_red

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Re: Universal Basic Income
« Reply #87 on: July 16, 2020, 03:27:00 pm »
Or society found other ways to invent jobs because of the false idea that everybody has to be employed at some kind of drudgery.

What are these invented jobs? Whose employing people to do them?
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Offline Zeb

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Re: Universal Basic Income
« Reply #88 on: July 16, 2020, 03:39:15 pm »
This is a decent left wing critique of potential pitfalls with UBI starting with lessons from the Speenhamland system of wage subsidies in the face of major technological changes.

http://renewal.org.uk/articles/speenhamland-automation-and-the-basic-income-a-warning-from-history

Thing it reminded me of was how Brexit was so fungible a term that it became something very other from the socialism in one country experiment some of its left wing fans imagined. If it ever was that outside their own internal discussions. (See also how the World Bank imagines UBI working...).

Article mentions Srnicek's work as engaging with the problems, although I found Inventing the Future had a bit of a problem with how it conceived capitalism and attempts to reshape I still found it a good read.
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Re: Universal Basic Income
« Reply #89 on: July 16, 2020, 03:41:18 pm »
What are these invented jobs? Whose employing people to do them?

Advertising and marketing for a start. Telesales, door to door sales. The production of unnecessary disposable rubbish that make people happy for 2 minutes.
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Re: Universal Basic Income
« Reply #90 on: July 16, 2020, 03:42:57 pm »
You’ve made an awful lot of assumptions here with no evidence.

On the previous page Elmo claimed a universal basic income would be ‘transformative’.  Age is correct when he states that the outcomes would be unpredictable.

An awful lot of the claims for it are based on speculation and utter guesswork, and without any significant pilot studies it would be an absurd course of action to take en mass.

Well I clarified what I meant by transformative in the next post. It was to point out that your basis for saying it was unaffordable was ridiculously flawed.

I honestly have huge doubts about it being affordable, I just think taking current spending and dividing it, as evidence of afforadability is wrong.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2020, 03:45:07 pm by Just Elmo? »

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Re: Universal Basic Income
« Reply #91 on: July 16, 2020, 03:50:51 pm »
Well I clarified what I meant by transformative in the next post. It was to point out that your basis for saying it was unaffordable was ridiculously flawed.

I honestly have huge doubts about it being affordable, I just think taking current spending and dividing it, as evidence of afforadability is wrong.
My comments on affordability were based entirely on the assumption that it could be  funded by reducing defence spending.

Which was absurd.
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Re: Universal Basic Income
« Reply #92 on: July 16, 2020, 03:54:14 pm »
My comments on affordability were based entirely on the assumption that it could be  funded by reducing defence spending.

Which was absurd.

Why is it absurd?

Best starting point is to reduce defence spending.
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Re: Universal Basic Income
« Reply #93 on: July 16, 2020, 03:55:59 pm »
My comments on affordability were based entirely on the assumption that it could be  funded by reducing defence spending.

Which was absurd.

Well I misread your typo'd defense then.  ;D

(Your post says 'Define')

To be honest I should probably have read the post you were quoting and replying to better.

Offline Devon Red

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Re: Universal Basic Income
« Reply #94 on: July 16, 2020, 05:12:53 pm »
You’ve made an awful lot of assumptions here with no evidence.

On the previous page Elmo claimed a universal basic income would be ‘transformative’.  Age is correct when he states that the outcomes would be unpredictable.

An awful lot of the claims for it are based on speculation and utter guesswork, and without any significant pilot studies it would be an absurd course of action to take en mass.

To be fair there have been a few pilot studies, with some encouraging results. What we need next is a much larger scale and longer term experiment. I expect someone will try it, governments have enacted much more dramatic, longer-lasting and costly policies than UBI.

Offline west_london_red

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Re: Universal Basic Income
« Reply #95 on: July 16, 2020, 05:56:36 pm »
Advertising and marketing for a start. Telesales, door to door sales. The production of unnecessary disposable rubbish that make people happy for 2 minutes.

Ruthless money pinching capitalists and companies don’t spend millions upon millions on marketing without clear evidence that it works, if it didn’t work they would just keep the money in their own pockets.

Likewise telesales, rubbish that only makes you happy for 2 mins etc, if these companies don’t sell something people want or need people don’t buy and they close down. Sometimes the reason people buy rubbish is because it’s all they can afford.

To write off entire industries based on what appears to be not more then your own opinion seems terribly arrogant.
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Offline Sudden Death Draft Loser

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Re: Universal Basic Income
« Reply #96 on: July 16, 2020, 07:12:56 pm »


To write off entire industries based on what appears to be not more then your own opinion seems terribly arrogant.

Such industries are causing a lot of environmental and social damage just to produce crap that we don't need and would not be bothered about being unavailable after a very short time.

There are plenty of opportunities to employ people in truly useful and satisfying jobs, things which really need doing for the benefit of the environment and the mitigation of climate change.
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Offline west_london_red

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Re: Universal Basic Income
« Reply #97 on: July 16, 2020, 07:29:38 pm »
Such industries are causing a lot of environmental and social damage just to produce crap that we don't need and would not be bothered about being unavailable after a very short time.

There are plenty of opportunities to employ people in truly useful and satisfying jobs, things which really need doing for the benefit of the environment and the mitigation of climate change.

So your argument has shifted from everyone needing a job being false to now it’s all about the environment?

And again, I’m not sure on what basis your deciding which jobs are worthwhile and which are not, because if it’s about the climate I’m pretty sure telesales and door to door sales aren’t at the top of the list of what’s killing the planet
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Re: Universal Basic Income
« Reply #98 on: July 16, 2020, 08:19:42 pm »
Such industries are causing a lot of environmental and social damage just to produce crap that we don't need and would not be bothered about being unavailable after a very short time.

There are plenty of opportunities to employ people in truly useful and satisfying jobs, things which really need doing for the benefit of the environment and the mitigation of climate change.
Define useful
Define satisfying.

This is silliness.  These terms mean nothing.

People don’t work because their jobs are ‘useful’ and satisfying.  Someone who wants off turkeys for a living isn’t gong to be finding that satisfying.
Painting pictures is satisfying but isn’t useful.

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“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
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Re: Universal Basic Income
« Reply #99 on: July 17, 2020, 01:50:40 pm »
My comments on affordability were based entirely on the assumption that it could be  funded by reducing defence spending.

Which was absurd.

I also didn't say only defence spending.  What are you arguing against exactly?  All this has given me is information that tepid is against ubi due to the bad faith approach to the matter rather than add anything to the issue.

You want to reallocate from waste to utility,  gain efficiency.  Both from areas of spending, and  in the government's revenue streams.  Voting in Trump is a spectacular example of that waste,  from his tax cuts for the businesses,  his wall,  his jollies.  Yet,  letting grandpa Stoke vote for Brexit to 'take his country back'  is part of that same,  work-free inefficiency.  Countries the world over are run very imprecisely,  I'm sure we can all google to do our own work on where the funding base can be found.

On a personal note if financially this was implausible I wouldn't be talking about it,  it's not necessary to quote high school economics at me.  It's a serious task to execute simply due to how mired in waste,  inefficiency and bad decision making political systems the world over are. It doesn't mean you just give it up and pretend working to exist is a natural order. It's manufactured nonsense.

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Re: Universal Basic Income
« Reply #100 on: July 17, 2020, 02:10:51 pm »
I also didn't say only defence spending.  What are you arguing against exactly?  All this has given me is information that tepid is against ubi due to the bad faith approach to the matter rather than add anything to the issue.

You want to reallocate from waste to utility,  gain efficiency.  Both from areas of spending, and  in the government's revenue streams.  Voting in Trump is a spectacular example of that waste,  from his tax cuts for the businesses,  his wall,  his jollies.  Yet,  letting grandpa Stoke vote for Brexit to 'take his country back'  is part of that same,  work-free inefficiency.  Countries the world over are run very imprecisely,  I'm sure we can all google to do our own work on where the funding base can be found.

On a personal note if financially this was implausible I wouldn't be talking about it,  it's not necessary to quote high school economics at me.  It's a serious task to execute simply due to how mired in waste,  inefficiency and bad decision making political systems the world over are. It doesn't mean you just give it up and pretend working to exist is a natural order. It's manufactured nonsense.
You said, you don't have to increase taxes if you can just reallocate defence spending, so I hope you can understand why I might have thought you meant that.

My questions are these:

What is waste spending in Britain? This is very subjective surely?

If we can get rid of ‘waste’ spending.  What’s that got to do with a universal basic income? We can do that anyway.  Inefficiency and bad decision making systems can exist with or without a basic income.


My point is that I am highly skeptical about universal basic income, because we have very little evidence of it being a positive or a negative for society. Generally I’m against ripping up the rule book and doing something completely different if I’m not sure what the genuine benefits  are and whether it would actually really work.
If we get that evidence I will change that position accordingly
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“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
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Offline Lusty

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Re: Universal Basic Income
« Reply #101 on: July 17, 2020, 03:37:02 pm »
My point is that I am highly skeptical about universal basic income, because we have very little evidence of it being a positive or a negative for society. Generally I’m against ripping up the rule book and doing something completely different if I’m not sure what the genuine benefits  are and whether it would actually really work.
If we get that evidence I will change that position accordingly


This should be basically everyone's position on everything ;D

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Re: Universal Basic Income
« Reply #102 on: July 17, 2020, 03:51:49 pm »
You said, you don't have to increase taxes if you can just reallocate defence spending, so I hope you can understand why I might have thought you meant that.

My questions are these:

What is waste spending in Britain? This is very subjective surely?

If we can get rid of ‘waste’ spending.  What’s that got to do with a universal basic income? We can do that anyway.  Inefficiency and bad decision making systems can exist with or without a basic income.


My point is that I am highly skeptical about universal basic income, because we have very little evidence of it being a positive or a negative for society. Generally I’m against ripping up the rule book and doing something completely different if I’m not sure what the genuine benefits  are and whether it would actually really work.
If we get that evidence I will change that position accordingly


The first two queries are straightforward to address. Waste isn't subjective,  it's measured.  Money,  as with time,  has an opportunity cost.  Take Brexit: in a well run organisation,  all you need to hear is that the work hasn't been done to prepare for all outcomes -  analysis,  projections -  to throw out a proposal.  In this case:

https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/brexit-impact-quantitative-forecasts/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+BritishPoliticsAndPolicyAtLse+%28British+politics+and+policy+at+LSE%29

I recall this news item from then,  just got the lse blog from a search.

No work,  don't proceed. The end.  Yet inefficient management,  starting from voters with no understanding of the issue getting a vote means what?  Money,  both what you have and what you may have had,  is channelled here.  This money has an opportunity cost

Which segues to your 2nd query.  Any sustainable initiative has to be backed by good capitalisation,  solid reserves.  There is a perception problem in finance where the details are broken down into quarters,  yet any solid organisation builds over years.  A country can build its reserves over decades,  cut out waste,  earn a healthy return on those reserves in a non negative interest rate environment, develop and execute,  fine tune a strong tax policy over decades,  in cooperation globally to stamp out evasion, fund that safety net.

Yet where are we? Policy changes every 4 years depending on the next government voted in,  power goes to incompetents with no work to back up a decision,  whether it's a guy on the street or a minister,  the tax code is subject to change,  execution is short term and limited globally,  monetary policy has become short term in nature,  even before Covid,  maintaining a low interest rate environment,  curtailing the ability to safely invest and build.  Only traders benefit from the current volatility.

Manage most factors under our control like shit and then say the money isn't there. Money begets money,  spectacularly after a certain point.  You need to build over time,  properly,  and the viability,  sustainability of that safety net,  including UBI is directly linked to this.

As for the last bit,  I'm glad there are a few initiatives off the ground already,  let's see how that goes but the biggest issue is truly shit management, there's so much room to improve.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2020, 04:07:22 pm by surfer. Fuck you generator. »

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Re: Universal Basic Income
« Reply #103 on: July 17, 2020, 03:53:01 pm »
Typing on a phone so not as comprehensive as it should be but you get the gist.

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Re: Universal Basic Income
« Reply #104 on: July 17, 2020, 04:19:29 pm »
This should be basically everyone's position on everything ;D

Except the transfer forum threads...
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Re: Universal Basic Income
« Reply #105 on: July 17, 2020, 04:45:16 pm »
Typing on a phone so not as comprehensive as it should be but you get the gist.
Look, I don’t necessarily disagree with much of what you say, but what’s any of it got to do with introducing a universal basic income?
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Re: Universal Basic Income
« Reply #106 on: July 17, 2020, 05:32:01 pm »
The first two queries are straightforward to address. Waste isn't subjective,  it's measured.  Money,  as with time,  has an opportunity cost.  Take Brexit: in a well run organisation,  all you need to hear is that the work hasn't been done to prepare for all outcomes -  analysis,  projections -  to throw out a proposal.  In this case:

https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/brexit-impact-quantitative-forecasts/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+BritishPoliticsAndPolicyAtLse+%28British+politics+and+policy+at+LSE%29

I recall this news item from then,  just got the lse blog from a search.

No work,  don't proceed. The end.  Yet inefficient management,  starting from voters with no understanding of the issue getting a vote means what?  Money,  both what you have and what you may have had,  is channelled here.  This money has an opportunity cost

Which segues to your 2nd query.  Any sustainable initiative has to be backed by good capitalisation,  solid reserves.  There is a perception problem in finance where the details are broken down into quarters,  yet any solid organisation builds over years.  A country can build its reserves over decades,  cut out waste,  earn a healthy return on those reserves in a non negative interest rate environment, develop and execute,  fine tune a strong tax policy over decades,  in cooperation globally to stamp out evasion, fund that safety net.

Yet where are we? Policy changes every 4 years depending on the next government voted in,  power goes to incompetents with no work to back up a decision,  whether it's a guy on the street or a minister,  the tax code is subject to change,  execution is short term and limited globally,  monetary policy has become short term in nature,  even before Covid,  maintaining a low interest rate environment,  curtailing the ability to safely invest and build.  Only traders benefit from the current volatility.

Manage most factors under our control like shit and then say the money isn't there. Money begets money,  spectacularly after a certain point.  You need to build over time,  properly,  and the viability,  sustainability of that safety net,  including UBI is directly linked to this.

As for the last bit,  I'm glad there are a few initiatives off the ground already,  let's see how that goes but the biggest issue is truly shit management, there's so much room to improve.
Look, I don’t necessarily disagree with much of what you say, but what’s any of it got to do with introducing a universal basic income?
Like Tepid, I probably do not disagree with anything you wrote above. But to be frank, surfer. Fuck you generator, it has nothing to do your initial claim that defense spending could be diverted to pay for UBI. That's the statement Tepid addressed, rebutted (successfully) and the claim you have failed to explain (away). Clearly, the numbers do not add up. It would better to simply accept that you made a mistake with your figures.
^ In a well run economy,  country a provision for UBI / UBI in another form is just an allocation of resources, you don't have to increase taxes if you can just reallocate defence spending.  I take the point about the current state of affairs: the answer to that is better husbandry not the complete abandonment of striving to show human quality.

Lest we forget,  a world where you pay for everything from water to good quality air (in places with such bad pollution)  is completely unnatural. People talk about a work routine as if it's a natural thing,  it is not.  This isn't an attempt to excuse laziness,  it's just logic

UBI / a version of it is the only way you can look another guy in the eye and be confident you're not lying when you say people are a community. Way overdue.
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Re: Universal Basic Income
« Reply #107 on: July 17, 2020, 06:41:09 pm »
Defence spending was clearly just a misunderstanding, let’s move on from that,.
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Re: Universal Basic Income
« Reply #108 on: July 17, 2020, 07:54:19 pm »
Like Tepid, I probably do not disagree with anything you wrote above. But to be frank, surfer. Fuck you generator, it has nothing to do your initial claim that defense spending could be diverted to pay for UBI. That's the statement Tepid addressed, rebutted (successfully) and the claim you have failed to explain (away). Clearly, the numbers do not add up. It would better to simply accept that you made a mistake with your figures.

What figures?

I gave no numbers,  I didn't specify a country,  I didn't say reallocating defence spending alone is enough.  That part you bolded,  where have I said I wasn't going to use tax revenue to fund UBI?  All I said was instead of an increase in taxation,  you can reallocate defence spending.

All this is very simplistic anyway,  I'm sure you and others have seen various UBI models, the Yang model was in the news a few months back. All of them work off various elements,  both on the income and expense columns.

I've made an effort to clarify,  got no problem with mistakes getting pointed out.  At least wait for me to make them.  :D
« Last Edit: July 17, 2020, 08:29:43 pm by surfer. Fuck you generator. »

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Re: Universal Basic Income
« Reply #109 on: July 17, 2020, 07:54:46 pm »
Having heard a few explanations (admittedly on reddit) I'm all for this. Seems like a really good Idea and one that can pull us away from the current broken system.

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Re: Universal Basic Income
« Reply #110 on: July 17, 2020, 08:32:00 pm »
This probably belongs on here,  in terms of assessing affordability and other factors in the future:

www.forbes.com/sites/trevornace/2020/07/17/world-population-expected-to-peak-in-just-44-years-as-fertility-rates-sink/amp/

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Re: Universal Basic Income
« Reply #111 on: July 19, 2020, 08:27:30 pm »
It certainly doesn't seem unreasonable to try and give all citizens a basic standard of living , especially for children. I guess we can look to see how the NHS compares here to the USA to see what Zeb means by a minimum standard of services. At the moment, for it to be acceptable I think there would need to be a lot of services decided, not cash handed out. In otherwise the usual arguments about it going on drugs and booze and fags and plasma TVs will be made. It needs also to be held at a level that doesn't encourage migration for it. Though I guess Priti can withhold it from migrants. Actually, on top of education and health. The services needed would beer housing, transport and food. If we could bring back decent levels of social housing and improve public transport, a structure for universal basic services wouldn't be that hard to achieve.
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Re: Universal Basic Income
« Reply #112 on: August 20, 2020, 09:27:16 pm »

Long-term study on basic income
The 1200 euro experiment
How does life change when you get a gift of 1200 euros a month? A study should provide information. DIW researcher Jürgen Schupp explains how to apply as a participant - and what result he expects.

Money from the state for everyone - just like that. This idea of ​​an unconditional basic income creates a passionate debate. One reason for the sharpness of the dispute is that there is a lack of common ground - namely facts and knowledge about the requirements and effects of a basic income that are recognized by both sides. Whether in terms of costs and financing, integration into the existing welfare state or the consequences for the world of work.

That is about to change, at least for one sub-area: This is what the initiators of the first German long-term study announced, for which the starting shot will be given this Tuesday. 120 people are to receive 1200 euros every month for three years - and are questioned and measured just as intensively as a comparison group of 1380 people who do not receive any cash payments.

The aim is to gain well-founded scientific knowledge about how people's behavior and attitudes change when they regularly receive money without any conditions: Are they lazy - or creative? Are they shortening working hours or giving up the job entirely? Do you use the extra time and money just for yourself - or are you committed to social benefit? The makers of the study want to find one million applicants for participation by November.

The team behind this "Basic Income Pilot Project" has a relatively unusual composition: It was initiated by the "Mein Grundeinkommen" association, which has been raffling off one-year payments of 1,000 euros a month financed by private donors for six years - that is, by clear advocates of a basic income . This time, too, the association is organizing the financing of the basic income and, according to its own information, has already won 140,000 private donors. But the activists also brought renowned scientists on board: behavioral economists, psychologists, and public welfare researchers.

The most important partner from science is the German Institute for Economic Research (DIW Berlin). DIW researcher Jürgen Schupp, who knows the life situation and attitudes of Germans better than almost anyone else, has a leading role: the 64-year-old has been working for the Socio-Economic Panel (SOEP) since 1984 - and thus almost from the beginning. for years he was its director. The SOEP is considered extremely informative; 30,000 people are surveyed for it every year - always the same if possible. Despite the cooperation with activists, Schupp wants the project that has just started to be understood in this context: "The study is not contract research," he says.

SPIEGEL: Mr. Schupp, you want to pay your study participants 1200 euros every month for three years, just like that. Is there really any need for scientific evidence that people find such a gift of money quite pleasant?

Schupp: If that were our question, certainly not. Happiness research has long since proven that more money increases well-being. But we want to find out a lot more: To what extent does such a reliable, unconditional flow of money affect people's attitudes and behavior - in relevant areas of life? How do, for example, professional life, daily structure, commitment, diet or relationships change? And how does that differ depending on age, area of ​​residence, other income and so on? That's a lot of exciting and so far unanswered questions.

SPIEGEL : But there have already been a few experiments on this. For example the recently completed state project in Finland or here in Germany by the association "Mein Grundeinkommen", which has now also initiated this study.

Schupp : Yes, and there was always valuable knowledge. What is new about our study, however, is the quality of the scientific method: It is designed in such a way that we can clearly and exclusively attribute these changes in people's behavior and attitudes to the payment of money - and not to any other factors.

SPIEGEL : How do you want to achieve that?

Schupp : We use the supreme discipline of empirical social research, randomization. We form two groups: one receives the basic income, the other does not. The key point is that we have people with the same characteristics and life situations as possible, on the one hand in the relatives and on the other in the comparison group - so-called statistical twins. In the best case scenario, people are the same and only differ in terms of their basic income. Measured changes are then clearly caused by the payment of money.

SPIEGEL : And how do you find such statistical twins?

Schupp : Through an elaborate selection process. We have a goal of one million applicants by November . From this large population, 20,000 people are randomly selected and interviewed extensively about their living situation. Based on this data, we can select 1500 participants: 120 receive the basic income, 1380 more do not receive it and form the comparison group. We are the first to examine the basic income in this way and at this level. Incidentally, it is important that the sample also includes people who tend to be negative about the basic income so as not to distort the results from the outset.

SPIEGEL : A basic income would not only make itself felt in the wallet of individual people, but would have an impact on consumer prices, wages, production, consumption and probably also the tax system - i.e. the economic environment of the recipients.

Schupp : That's right. We cannot simulate a basic income world, it would have to be introduced. It is important to make the limits of our study clear: We will not find out anything about these economic consequences, not even about possible shifts in power between employers and employees, the level of net costs or the effects on migration. This also applies to possible further stages of the experiment - we are planning variants in which the income of the recipients is only increased to 1200 euros or the basic income is offset against simulated taxes. Our subject of study is narrowly defined: the changes in attitudes and behavior of people who receive unconditional cash payments for three years.

SPIEGEL : What is the value of these findings?

Schupp : So far, the debate about the basic income has been like a philosophical salon in good moments and a war of faith in bad times. It is - on both sides - shaped by clichés: Opponents claim that with a basic income people would stop working in order to dull on the couch with fast food and streaming services. Proponents argue that people will continue to do fulfilling work, become more creative and charitable, and save democracy. Incidentally, these stereotypes also flow into economic simulations as assumptions about the supposed costs and benefits of a basic income. We can improve this if we replace these stereotypes with empirically proven knowledge and therefore can also conduct a more appropriate debate.

SPIEGEL : What results are you particularly looking forward to?

Schupp : We examine a lot, the effect on health or social cohesion and democracy. Personally, I'm particularly interested in the job market: Do more people really dare to take the plunge into self-employment? How does the new freedom to be able to say no once in a while - especially for those who do their job not because it makes sense for them, but because they simply need the money? How do people's time budgets change - do they perhaps do without one or the other overtime, do they work part-time? Then what do you do with your free time? In fact, if they were just sitting in front of the television, we wouldn't have won anything.

SPIEGEL : As a long-time social researcher, you have surely already made assumptions.

Schupp : In the Socio-Economic Panel we ask people what they would do if they "unexpectedly received 10,000 euros". Around half answered that they would not change anything and would not touch the money at all, but instead put it in their reserves. I wouldn't be surprised if a similarly high proportion of our basic income recipients would stick to it. In other preliminary studies, around ten percent of those surveyed said they would give up their job. My guess would be that some would actually do that who only work for the money.

SPIEGEL : The initiators of the study are clear advocates of an unconditional basic income, and some of the scientists involved at least sympathize with the idea. How do you feel about it personally?

Schupp : I'm not an ardent supporter who is one hundred percent committed to the basic income. I value our existing social security system in Germany too much for that, which is also of a high standard compared to other rich industrial countries. And I think one principle is important in political reforms: they should only be carried out if their positive effect is proven - if the situation afterwards is clearly superior to the previous one in terms of the balance of advantages and disadvantages. Nevertheless, I consider fundamental reforms of our social security system to be inevitable for the foreseeable future, and politics should now deal with them far more intensively.

SPIEGEL : Why?

Schupp : Because the previous system of contribution financing - i.e. through the burden on the labor factor - will reach its limits because of two megatrends : demography and digitization. When the baby boomers retire - in other words by 2030 at the latest - the relationship between contributors and beneficiaries in terms of pension, health and care will tip over into the intolerable. The tax subsidies in these systems are already substantial. Then there is digitization, which will revolutionize our working world ...

SPIEGEL : ... but according to all serious studies, the bottom line is that it will not lead to less gainful employment - which refutes an important argument in favor of the basic income, according to which there will soon not be enough work for everyone anyway.

Schupp : That may be, but what kind of jobs will they be - those requiring social security? Or will we get many forms of self-employment in the platform economy, in which the employed are simply not integrated into the network of social security that was so viable up to now. If these people lose their jobs after a few years, they too need to be caught. There are good arguments to change our social system - away from the burden of work towards financing from taxes. That will take a long time anyway, after all, the accumulated pension entitlements will be retained. This makes it all the more important to start now and not just when the financial crisis is huge. A study commission of the Bundestag could be a start.

SPIEGEL : There is already a tax-financed safety net: Hartz IV and basic security in old age. Since the Constitutional Court significantly restricted the sanctions, it has also been practically unconditional - with some discounts. What is the difference to the basic income?

Schupp : There are some differences, just the attitude towards the recipients. But let me highlight one aspect that is often overlooked: the basic income would be paid out to everyone - you have to apply for the current basic security. But an incredible number of people don't do that, out of shame or ignorance. We know from our data from the Socio-Economic Panel that only half of the senior citizens who are entitled to basic social security actually receive it. At Hartz IV, the proportion is also high. That might please a finance minister. But we as a society cannot accept that so many people live below the subsistence level - although they have a right to it.

SPIEGEL : And the job centers can be abolished when the basic income comes?

Schupp : No way! We still need job recruiters, professional qualifications and help for people who have difficulties meeting the demands of the labor market. Even with 1200 euros, you are certainly not happy if you take early retirement and sit at home alone.

SPIEGEL : The initiators of the study are clear advocates of a basic income; most of the 140,000 private donors are likely to be too. At the same time you affirm that the results of the study are open. Doesn't a renowned research institute like DIW get into a conflict?

Schupp : No, because we scientists have the final say in design and implementation. There are clear red lines, we maintain all scientific standards. Such a collaboration is certainly uncharted territory: During the preparation we had quite a few tough discussions, it was partly a clash of cultures. But what I appreciate about Michael Bohmeyer (founder of the association "My Income", editor's note ) is that he does not advertise the basic income with promises of salvation. And without his open attitude - according to the motto "If the basic income doesn't work, I at least want to know" - DIW Berlin and I personally wouldn't be there now.

https://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/soziales/grundeinkommen-studie-startet-das-1200-euro-experiment-a-413dcee7-1d58-4d19-abd1-8d241972ffd4

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Re: Universal Basic Income
« Reply #113 on: August 21, 2020, 12:28:00 pm »
Quick question regarding this experiment, and how something like this could ever be rolled out affordably.

If total public spending in the UK is £851bn, and we have 45m adults then the budget would be £19k per adult.

How could say £12k per year for adults be affordable? Am I missing something or thinking too simply?

*Gov spend from institute for government.

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Re: Universal Basic Income
« Reply #114 on: August 21, 2020, 12:44:24 pm »
Quick question regarding this experiment, and how something like this could ever be rolled out affordably.

If total public spending in the UK is £851bn, and we have 45m adults then the budget would be £19k per adult.

How could say £12k per year for adults be affordable? Am I missing something or thinking too simply?

*Gov spend from institute for government.

The idea is that people would have more disposable income, so would spend on goods and services which would see a return to the Govt. via various taxes. It could also stimulate innovation and entrepreneurship, which again could lead to a return to the Govt. via taxes.

Also there is an argument that stress levels would drop, and people would have more time & money for their own health (exercise & better diets) which would lead to a saving on health spending by the Govt.

The current various benefit spending would also drop.

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Re: Universal Basic Income
« Reply #115 on: August 21, 2020, 12:52:36 pm »
Using the current spending levels as a guide is not particularly useful as revenues would completely change.

For example most proponents of UBI propose getting rid of the tax free allowance, so people would get their UBI payments but would pay income tax and NI on all their earnings, not get the first ~£12k tax free (and whatever it is for NI).

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Re: Universal Basic Income
« Reply #116 on: August 21, 2020, 01:09:04 pm »
There would need to be greater taxation. But as income goes up and people move into higher brackets dues to the hike in their income (due to UBI), some of this will occur naturally. But you would also need to increase corporation tax (which must come as jobs become more scarce due to automation and AI).

When you have UBI, you can also dismantle much of the welfare state. Indeed, that's much of the point. To me, if it can be made to work (I think it can be, if there is the will), UBI offers something to most people: a safety net AND something in tune libertarianism principles.

https://www.libertarianism.org/columns/libertarian-case-basic-income

The way I look at it is this: if you have a productive society, where average income is quite comfortable, then the rest comes down to how (and to what degree) we redistribute income. I appreciate that UBI would be a huge shift in how society is organised. But with the prospect of work becoming increasingly scarce (but average income remaining static or even improving), something must give. Assuming that work becomes increasingly scarce, the obvious alternatives to UBI are dystopian.

I have not given a great deal of thought to UBI. But I do think it is interesting and balk at the alternatives with the way things are going.
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Re: Universal Basic Income
« Reply #117 on: August 21, 2020, 06:23:52 pm »
If everyone gets a certain sum of money each month I believe we'd get inflation. And it would be seen primaily in the things people buy every day. Why? If you have little money, say you're unemployed, how does it impact your life? You immediately start reviewing your expenses. You have to pay rent, you have to pay for food, electricity and your phone. You review your savings and calculate how long you can last. All ’extras’ are put on hold.

Let's say that's your situation. Now you win the lottery. What do you do? You may save some money, but you are also likely to buy something you couldn't afford before you won. This lottery win really benefits you. Meaning, if you try this on a smaller group of people, you give them extra benefits, I think their standard of living will go up. So UBI will look successful if you make such an experiment.

But....

Now let's say everyone gets UBI (everyone wins the same amount in that lottery). What happens? My bet - the prices on the things you need to pay for, even as an unemployed, will go up. And we find a new equilibrium. Nobody wins. If we take it to an extreme level, let's say everyone gets £10M in their bank account tomorrow. Who wins? Those who are the quickest to spend the money, before prices have gone up. You go and put down 1M at the nearest Ferrari store and it’s a deal. You have a new car. An hour later half the city enter the store and offer 2M, 5M or even 10M each but can't get the same deal. But food will get really expensive next. Who else loses? The real killer - anyone with savings. If you have worked and saved £10k, all that effort is now worthless. It's just 1/1000 of what everyone got for free. All that extra work where you tried to build up some savings - it may buy you a cup of coffee.

There are reasons why UBI is talked about. My view is governments/central banks have fucked up. They have rewarded the rich for too long and increased the wealth gap. People begin to realize it's unfair and expect to get their share too. Nobody has seen any real inflation, so why not give money to the people? But another reason is there is so much debt and it's a nice solution to inflate it all away. So the inflation I mentioned above - they want it. You don't. It will destroy your purchasing power.

If UBI comes to a neighborhood near you my advice is - take all the money you can and run to buy a piece of jewellery, a decent watch, some art,... whatever you prefer and can afford as long as it's ’real’ and will last. The people who spend the money first, before prices are adjusted, will gain the most.

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Re: Universal Basic Income
« Reply #118 on: August 21, 2020, 06:32:50 pm »
Your example only works if everyone gets a silly amount though and it also ignores other mechanisms which may prevent prices rises.

If everyone gets £12k UBI then that won’t cause people to rush out and spend spend spend. Some will stop working. Some will work less. It won’t make anyone rich. No one is buying Ferrari’s off the back of it.

Yes it will increase demand for certain goods, which has the ability to see the prices rise for those goods if demand outstrips supply. However it’s likely supply will be fine for the vast majority of everyday items and where it isn’t it will be increased.

You also have to consider that innovation will occur as people have the ability to take risks. As will entrepreneurship. All of which can drive prices down.

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Re: Universal Basic Income
« Reply #119 on: August 21, 2020, 07:04:40 pm »
Your example only works if everyone gets a silly amount though and it also ignores other mechanisms which may prevent prices rises.

If everyone gets £12k UBI then that won’t cause people to rush out and spend spend spend. Some will stop working. Some will work less. It won’t make anyone rich. No one is buying Ferrari’s off the back of it.

Yes it will increase demand for certain goods, which has the ability to see the prices rise for those goods if demand outstrips supply. However it’s likely supply will be fine for the vast majority of everyday items and where it isn’t it will be increased.

You also have to consider that innovation will occur as people have the ability to take risks. As will entrepreneurship. All of which can drive prices down.
And if much increased automation and AI is the driving force behind UBI, it is reasonable to expect downward pressure on prices derived from greater efficiency.
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