Author Topic: Russia launches invasion of Ukraine (*) & use spoiler tags for anything graphic!  (Read 562609 times)

Offline Classycara

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Chomsky's own words:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YeRX6ZYXH0 funnily enough he describes the Russian invasion of Ukraine as "pure aggression and criminal aggression "

Chomsky said in his interview with that nodding dog Owen Jones that he thinks that criminal and aggressive Russian invasion should be rewarded with a settlement over Donbas and Crimea.

So yep, he and Kissinger do agree on rewarding Russia

Offline bigbonedrawky

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So yep, he and Kissinger do agree on rewarding Russia
I'd rather hear that, from the person whom I asked the question of thanks. Ie Yorkykopite.

Offline Classycara

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I'd rather hear that, from the person whom I asked the question of thanks. Ie Yorkykopite.

You didn't ask a question :) You just refuted something that has been proven to be true, so I gave you a source

Offline Classycara

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You didn't ask a question about what I wrote. Thought that was obvious.

You should check out some of the points the Ukrainian scholars made against Chomsky. It might help you realise why it seems like you are refuting it by replying 'Chomsky's own words' to it. Point 7 in particular for the Kissinger crossover

Offline Classycara

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FFS
Why would I. I wasn't responding to you. I wasn't asking anything of you.  I know you're a mirror but let him speak for himself.
Honestly mate pause for a minute. I think your comprehension isn't keeping up with you.

I was merely responding to your 'find the question' jibe, and explaining that I very clearly was not responding about anything to do with that weird question you have for yorky. I am not stopping him speaking, and nothing I've said has made your odd question disappear, so please just chill out.

Can you just drop it now?

Offline Bend It Like Aurelio

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Chomsky's own words:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YeRX6ZYXH0 funnily enough he describes the Russian invasion of Ukraine as "pure aggression and criminal aggression " he also describes in someway how consent is manufactured in Russia and how descent is silenced ( A couple of things you'd agree with ) but points out how all press are good at highlighting the war-crimes of others.
He also talks of how Russian censorship differs from the UK when talking of Orwells Animal Farm and the censorship of the introduction to the novel, ( Ironically  a criticism of the UK's own censorship ) And how censorship in the US is reaching scary levels when it comes to education and history etc

As for Kissinger going from your opinions on places like Cuba Venezuela Libya Iran Iraq Syria and Israel etc and how they all tally with the ideals of Kissinger's real politic and American hedgemony...Is it your belief only the US should be rewarded for pure aggression but not places like Russia or China ? 

PS Anyone see George Dubya's conscience kicking in the other day: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eH3QqcUJnBY

Noam Chomsky is anti-West, anti-NATO, and anti-imperialist, don’t think that is in dispute. In regards to Ukraine, his take has been closer to Mearsheimer in that western hegemony provoked this conflict, and that they are just as responsible.

His quote of the war was the Ukrainian need for heavy weapons is ‘Western propoganda’.

He is, above all else, driven by ideology, and his thoughts aren’t rooted in reality. That is the problem here.

Offline 24∗7

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Go find an adult and ask them to find the question and where I refuted anything.
This is a starred thread. Pack it in. Behave more like an adult.
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Offline Yorkykopite

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Chomsky's own words:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YeRX6ZYXH0 funnily enough he describes the Russian invasion of Ukraine as "pure aggression and criminal aggression "

It's called 'throat-clearing'. Get the obvious bit out of the way and pretend you mean it. He always does it before launching into the gravamen of his case.

Ironically, of course, it makes his case even more repugnant. He knows how evil Putin is, he tells us, and yet Putin is always right.

Why is he always right? Because the real culprits are always America and the West and liberal democracy.
"If you want the world to love you don't discuss Middle Eastern politics" Saul Bellow.

Offline bigbonedrawky

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It's called 'throat-clearing'. Get the obvious bit out of the way and pretend you mean it. He always does it before launching into the gravamen of his case.

Ironically, of course, it makes his case even more repugnant. He knows how evil Putin is, he tells us, and yet Putin is always right.

Why is he always right? Because the real culprits are always America and the West and liberal democracy.
I missed the part where he said putin is always right or that he himself is always right, maybe he secretly thinks that and you yourself are always right when it comes to these things.

You summed up Kissingers beliefs that "aggression should be rewarded when its commited by ALL the great powers" generally speaking your probably right.
Like the MAD doctrine It may of even avoided nucular escalation in the past.
I might be wrong but I've always had the feeling you followed that belief given how your opinions  (expressed on here at least ) closely align with that ideology.
 If so have your thoughts on the matter recently changed after the last 20 years ? given you're clearly against rewarding Russian aggression and presumably China too
but what of the US ? What would it take for you to change your mind  ?
Most people passively accept the reality but you have been somewhat pro -activ when it comes to their aggression, you could say, in your own little way
you've helped manufacture consent.  ;)
 
I noticed Chomsky used the Mexico analogy and it has it's merits but I'd look closer to home to Eire and it's neutral status, which suits themselves and the UK but I doubt the UK
as with Germany in the past would allow Russia or China or any potentialy hostile power, to set up shop and start importing military hardware...Self determination Sovereign rights be damned it's not happening.
and that's the uncomfortable truth, the real politic if you like.     
 
As for Liberal Democracy the US has been stuck at a cross road these last 20 years but I'm not so sure where they'll be 20 years from now but that's for a another thread I suppose.
Right now it's Ukraine and whether we want to stop the war or keep it going ?
« Last Edit: May 25, 2022, 04:04:09 pm by bigbonedrawky »

Offline bigbonedrawky

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This is a starred thread. Pack it in. Behave more like an adult.
I do try but when a few paragraphs seem to confuse him, it's hard.
 Of course he may understand perfectly well and might be trolling and flaming...In a starred thread. 

Offline Red Berry

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I do try but when a few paragraphs seem to confuse him, it's hard.
 Of course he may understand perfectly well and might be trolling and flaming...In a starred thread.

You've just been told by a mod to pack it in. You used your reply to get a dig in. Give it a rest.

I'm here for updates on the war in Ukraine, not squabbles. If you have a genuine issue, take it to PMs or please contact a mod.
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Offline Yorkykopite

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More from the Russian diplomat Boris Bondarev who resigned earlier this week:

 https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/23/world/europe/boris-bondarev-russia-ukraine-war.html

“Those who conceived this war want only one thing — to remain in power forever, live in pompous tasteless palaces, sail on yachts comparable in tonnage and cost to the entire Russian Navy, enjoying unlimited power and complete impunity,” Mr. Bondarev said in his email. “To achieve that they are willing to sacrifice as many lives as it takes.”
"If you want the world to love you don't discuss Middle Eastern politics" Saul Bellow.

Offline Yorkykopite

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Offline Jiminy Cricket

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Newsweek a bit slow on the uptake, but here is the new love match:

https://www.newsweek.com/henry-kissinger-noam-chomsky-find-rare-common-ground-over-ukraine-war-1709733
Yeah. They probably read your posts here for ideas.
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Offline 24∗7

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I do try but when a few paragraphs seem to confuse him, it's hard.
 Of course he may understand perfectly well and might be trolling and flaming...In a starred thread. 
Seriously, read the room. Better still, read more of the forum. This is not the best way to respond.
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Offline Bend It Like Aurelio

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Quote
The last family photo in Mariupol. The beginning of March. Soon these three girls will be killed by Russians and buried at the kindergarten yard in front of this building.


https://twitter.com/tsybulskaliubov/status/1529505914503446529?s=21&t=C3k5tgtnT5l_Ly25V63FYA

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The additional scary thing emerging, is that there are people in Russia - with some influence - who are even more extreme than Putin. They're now beginning to more openly question the prosecution of the war. Not from a 'maybe it was a bad idea, how best do we de-escalate?' perspective, but from a 'nobody fucks with us, so we now need to go all-in at Ukraine and deliver a huge victory' one.


What western powers need to do is keep in mind the achievable outcomes. With piecemeal sanctions (those with bought political protection are safe), a refusal to stop buying Russian gas (and, to a lesser extent, oil), a clear 'we will not put troops on the ground in Ukraine or militarily engage Russia', there's very little 'the West' can do to dictate the outcome.


Russia is focused on the Donbas and its land bridge to Crimea. It's slowly sweeping the region and ethnically-cleansing it. This seems to have been the ultimate aim from the outset (albeit I reckon the original plan was to take Kiev and around half of Ukraine, install a puppet regime, and force Ukraine to cede the territory).

If they take and consolidate a region covering south/east of the Dnipro River up to say Vasylivka, then ENE'wards to the Russian border, how are they to be dislodged?

It's a sickening notion, and one that on the face of it sets a dangerous precedent - but, as some have pointed out, certain western countries (and a particular ally of some western countries) have done so previously, and been given a thumbs-up for doing to. But that seems the only realistic way to resolve this and stop the bloodshed. If we accept that, then it comes down to the terms - such as reparations and guarantees for border solidity going forwards.
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Offline Bend It Like Aurelio

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The additional scary thing emerging, is that there are people in Russia - with some influence - who are even more extreme than Putin. They're now beginning to more openly question the prosecution of the war. Not from a 'maybe it was a bad idea, how best do we de-escalate?' perspective, but from a 'nobody fucks with us, so we now need to go all-in at Ukraine and deliver a huge victory' one.


What western powers need to do is keep in mind the achievable outcomes. With piecemeal sanctions (those with bought political protection are safe), a refusal to stop buying Russian gas (and, to a lesser extent, oil), a clear 'we will not put troops on the ground in Ukraine or militarily engage Russia', there's very little 'the West' can do to dictate the outcome.


Russia is focused on the Donbas and its land bridge to Crimea. It's slowly sweeping the region and ethnically-cleansing it. This seems to have been the ultimate aim from the outset (albeit I reckon the original plan was to take Kiev and around half of Ukraine, install a puppet regime, and force Ukraine to cede the territory).

If they take and consolidate a region covering south/east of the Dnipro River up to say Vasylivka, then ENE'wards to the Russian border, how are they to be dislodged?

It's a sickening notion, and one that on the face of it sets a dangerous precedent - but, as some have pointed out, certain western countries (and a particular ally of some western countries) have done so previously, and been given a thumbs-up for doing to. But that seems the only realistic way to resolve this and stop the bloodshed. If we accept that, then it comes down to the terms - such as reparations and guarantees for border solidity going forwards.

Think what you are saying already happened in 2014 and the Minsk accords. Look at where we are now.

Achievable outcomes can only be determined by those fighting for it, not those who sit on the sideline dictating terms. Unless of course you believe the Russians will stop now and accept the status quo.

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Think what you are saying already happened in 2014 and the Minsk accords. Look at where we are now.

Achievable outcomes can only be determined by those fighting for it, not those who sit on the sideline dictating terms. Unless of course you believe the Russians will stop now and accept the status quo.


I'm not dictating anything.

I'm just recognising the practicalities of what is achievable, and what isn't.

Sticking to emotive positions and sneering at people who don't subscribe to that, helps nobody.

A Tory, a worker and an immigrant are sat round a table. There's a plate of 10 biscuits in the middle. The Tory takes 9 then turns to the worker and says "that immigrant is trying to steal your biscuit"

Offline Bend It Like Aurelio

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I'm not dictating anything.

I'm just recognising the practicalities of what is achievable, and what isn't.

Sticking to emotive positions and sneering at people who don't subscribe to that, helps nobody.

Not referring to you personally, but the governments who are attempting to steer the narrative to negotiating for Ukraine on their own terms. The French and German governments come to mind.

It is the ‘west’ dictating and westplaining to the world what Ukraine should do. The views from the likes of Macron and Scholz believe that an unstable Russia is potentially a danger to world security, which is not totally incorrect. But on the other hand, acceding to Russia every time it blames NATO for something will only lead to more violence and bloodshed. Case in point, the Ukrainian government and society is very much different that what it was in 2014, yet the Russian government very much is the same as it was back then. The relative stability has only brought on nothing more than more aggression on loosely based accusations.

So the question remains, do you believe Russia will stop at the status quo? I’m not sneering at you, but the question I think is very valid on the basis that I can’t answer it either. In that sense the only correct answer can only come from those who are subjected (or will potentially be subjected) to this aggression.

Offline bigbonedrawky

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Not referring to you personally, but the governments who are attempting to steer the narrative to negotiating for Ukraine on their own terms. The French and German governments come to mind.

It is the ‘west’ dictating and westplaining to the world what Ukraine should do. The views from the likes of Macron and Scholz believe that an unstable Russia is potentially a danger to world security, which is not totally incorrect. But on the other hand, acceding to Russia every time it blames NATO for something will only lead to more violence and bloodshed. Case in point, the Ukrainian government and society is very much different that what it was in 2014, yet the Russian government very much is the same as it was back then. The relative stability has only brought on nothing more than more aggression on loosely based accusations.

So the question remains, do you believe Russia will stop at the status quo? I’m not sneering at you, but the question I think is very valid on the basis that I can’t answer it either. In that sense the only correct answer can only come from those who are subjected (or will potentially be subjected) to this aggression.
Zelensky himself has stated  on several occasions negotiation is the only way to stop the war. But he want to negotiate from a position of strength, so it's not just Germany or France.
An unstable Russia or any other country with a nucular arsenal is a threat to world security and that statement is pretty far from been totally incorrect.
The lack of a negotiated peace settlement will certainly lead to more violence and bloodshed but it might lead to more violence and bloodshed in the future.

Will Russia stop at the status quo ? what your proposing seems to suggest they wont but 'm not sure. Before the invasion I half expected them to Invade Donbass and set up a buffer zone under the guise of peacekeeping (  Something the UN should of perhaps done ) and I think Covd delayed that plan but also bought Russia more time to prepare for a bigger invasion.

If Putin ordered a tactical nucular strike on Kiev  do you think Biden or Bo Jo would respond in like ?

Offline Jiminy Cricket

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Will Russia stop at the status quo ? what your proposing seems to suggest they wont but 'm not sure. Before the invasion I half expected them to Invade Donbass and set up a buffer zone under the guise of peacekeeping (  Something the UN should of perhaps done ) and I think Covd delayed that plan but also bought Russia more time to prepare for a bigger invasion.
Surely, Russia would have vetoed such a proposal.
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Offline Bend It Like Aurelio

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Zelensky himself has stated  on several occasions negotiation is the only way to stop the war. But he want to negotiate from a position of strength, so it's not just Germany or France.
An unstable Russia or any other country with a nucular arsenal is a threat to world security and that statement is pretty far from been totally incorrect.
The lack of a negotiated peace settlement will certainly lead to more violence and bloodshed but it might lead to more violence and bloodshed in the future.

Will Russia stop at the status quo ? what your proposing seems to suggest they wont but 'm not sure. Before the invasion I half expected them to Invade Donbass and set up a buffer zone under the guise of peacekeeping (  Something the UN should of perhaps done ) and I think Covd delayed that plan but also bought Russia more time to prepare for a bigger invasion.

If Putin ordered a tactical nucular strike on Kiev  do you think Biden or Bo Jo would respond in like ?

I don’t think the Russians are in it to just stop at what they have now, I think the wider issue is that the general public seems to be more worried about nuclear armageddon than the Russian army running rampant in Eastern Europe.

But my personal belief is that people are believing too much in the fearmongering, which plays into Russian hands. If they keep bringing up the nuclear card does that mean everyone has to lay down their arms in front of the advancing horde?

The other issue I have with people in the West negotiating for their eastern neighbours is that eventually the gulf will be driven so wide in Europe that the EU in and of itself will weaken considerably. That has wider implications for the long term which would be quite obvious.

Any peace eventually has to be negotiated, that is not in dispute. But if Europeans were to pressure Ukraine into concessions to soothe their own fears, I think it will not end well. The Ukrainians are willing to give up their lives in order to weaken the Russian army to the point where they won’t be able to mount another war in the foreseeable future, I think we should give them that chance to do so.

Offline Sangria

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I don’t think the Russians are in it to just stop at what they have now, I think the wider issue is that the general public seems to be more worried about nuclear armageddon than the Russian army running rampant in Eastern Europe.

But my personal belief is that people are believing too much in the fearmongering, which plays into Russian hands. If they keep bringing up the nuclear card does that mean everyone has to lay down their arms in front of the advancing horde?

The other issue I have with people in the West negotiating for their eastern neighbours is that eventually the gulf will be driven so wide in Europe that the EU in and of itself will weaken considerably. That has wider implications for the long term which would be quite obvious.

Any peace eventually has to be negotiated, that is not in dispute. But if Europeans were to pressure Ukraine into concessions to soothe their own fears, I think it will not end well. The Ukrainians are willing to give up their lives in order to weaken the Russian army to the point where they won’t be able to mount another war in the foreseeable future, I think we should give them that chance to do so.

Should there be reparations, or should complete withdrawal be enough of a condition for peace/a ceasefire?
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Offline Jiminy Cricket

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Should there be reparations, or should complete withdrawal be enough of a condition for peace/a ceasefire?
Well, I cannot see that happening. But maybe, just maybe, confiscated Russian assets could be redirected towards Ukraine.
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Offline Sangria

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Well, I cannot see that happening. But maybe, just maybe, confiscated Russian assets could be redirected towards Ukraine.

What do you make of those who demand that Russia must pay reparations and/or remove Putin?
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Offline Bend It Like Aurelio

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Should there be reparations, or should complete withdrawal be enough of a condition for peace/a ceasefire?

The recent polls carried out in Ukraine about the war were around 92% of the population supporting the continuation of the fighting until victory, and the polls have been fairly consistent over the past month.

Zelenskyy have varied in his responses, whether they were meant to motivate the army and the general populace, or the wider worldwide audience. His most recent remarks are that they will not cede any territory to the Russians under any circumstances as the definition of victory, which went against his earlier ethos of the Crimea and Donbas questions may need to be discussed earlier in the war. But you can see he very carefully cultivates what he says in order to have the desired effect on his target audience. In recent times, motivating his armed forces have been key as they go through some of the toughest stages of their campaign. The ones doing the fighting take the message of kicking out the invaders well, and it motivates them. But will it be the final settlement of this war? I highly doubt it.

I think what the Ukrainians may accept is to keep the territorial integrity of the country, including Luhansk, Donetsk, and Crimea, but allow for autonomy within that framework. I think the more likely scenario is that the Crimea may be a lost cause, but the other Eastern territories may have more complicated settlements.

As for reparations, if we ever get to that stage, don't think the Russians will pay from their own pocket, but rather from the confiscated funds and assets. But that's so far down the road I can't even imagine it.

This is all assuming the Ukrainians will win this war, which is not guaranteed at all.

Offline Jiminy Cricket

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What do you make of those who demand that Russia must pay reparations and/or remove Putin?
I think it is for Ukraine to determine their remands of Russia. Irrespective, the EU (and other countries) should continue to ostracise Russia until meaningful changes are enacted. The EU could make reparations one of their demands for re-engagement with Russia. It is for Ukraine to determine their demands, and the EU, theirs. Of course, where we agree with the demands made by Ukraine, we should support those. After all, Ukraine should be recognised as future close partner.

The way things are going, there will be no re-normalization of relations between Russia and EU/USA in the short to medium term. Nor should there be. Russia cannot be rewarded for their actions - rather, they need to pay a very high price.
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A couple of weeks ago they had a farmer from Mariopoul on the telly saying that he had two combine harvesters fitted with GPS trackers. After they disappeared he activated the tracker and found they were now located in Chechnya.

Offline Bend It Like Aurelio

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Looks like the Russian offensive has stalled, but the Ukrainians are still severely outnumbered in the East. Some of the footage of the Russians using thermite shells and thermobaric attacks are absolutely terrifying.

There have been reports of an Ukrainian offensive in the south near Kherson, still early days yet.

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Ben Grant ex-marine commando with video of their ambush. Trying to rescue a soldier with a leg wound in a firefight. Kharkiv region.

Part 1
https://twitter.com/caucasuswar/status/1530979269257703433?s=21&t=trlF6tz0Rpo2lA-Wd8aI8A

Part 2
https://twitter.com/caucasuswar/status/1530976816608976896?s=21&t=trlF6tz0Rpo2lA-Wd8aI8A

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Putin is an absolute cnut  :wanker

I think recession is the last of the world's concerns in the immediate term.

43 million people facing famine today as only 8 weeks of wheat supply is left in the world. Could well be looking at an influx of millions of refugees within 3 months. I read a report last week that the Italian defence forces have been in training for such a scenario.

https://www.oslint.org/community/index.php?threads/world-only-has-8-week-supply-of-wheat-left-expert-tells-un.540/

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Ben Grant ex-marine commando with video of their ambush. Trying to rescue a soldier with a leg wound in a firefight. Kharkiv region.

Part 1
https://twitter.com/caucasuswar/status/1530979269257703433?s=21&t=trlF6tz0Rpo2lA-Wd8aI8A

Part 2
https://twitter.com/caucasuswar/status/1530976816608976896?s=21&t=trlF6tz0Rpo2lA-Wd8aI8A

"Right, let's go get this tank"

Proper hard bastard that.
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This video actually came out first a few days ago, but it’s a follow up of the last two with Ben Grant. This is when they went and hit a BTR-80.

https://twitter.com/blue_sauron/status/1530067008246751233?s=21&t=JpdJev0ax5k5S-CHJ0RkQg

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Quote
Here is a video with jarring quotes from Russian State Duma Deputy Defense Committee Chairman Vladimir Shamanov, former Commander-in-Chief of the Russian Airborne Troops, accused war criminal. He talks about Russia's horrific plans for Ukraine, its gov't leaders and journalists.

https://twitter.com/juliadavisnews/status/1531012721713504257?s=21&t=JpdJev0ax5k5S-CHJ0RkQg

For those of you who want to watch more materiel gleamed off Russian TV and what they are saying, you can follow Julia Davis from the Daily Beast. The Russian Media Monitor literally has hours of videos of Russian TV with English subtitles and what they are saying about the war.

https://twitter.com/juliadavisnews?s=21&t=JpdJev0ax5k5S-CHJ0RkQg

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Head of regional administration says Sieverodonetsk is largely under Russian control. Unfortunately the Russians have made some serious gains the last couple of weeks and Ukraine has a major decision to make be it to fall back and regroup so they aren't surrounded by the orks or fight for every inch. Their hearts will tell them fight but i suspect the they will box smart and live for a counter attack in the weeks to come.
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Head of regional administration says Sieverodonetsk is largely under Russian control. Unfortunately the Russians have made some serious gains the last couple of weeks and Ukraine has a major decision to make be it to fall back and regroup so they aren't surrounded by the orks or fight for every inch. Their hearts will tell them fight but i suspect the they will box smart and live for a counter attack in the weeks to come.

They will cross the river to defend Lyschansk, which is much more defensible on higher ground and a natural river separating the two. It seems the Russians have thrown everything in this assault, a lot of their artillery was facing into this salient. But their advance has been really slow due to the artillery creep effect having to systematically demolish all that comes before them. Meanwhile, most of the Ukrainian forces have retreated across, with some rearguard to stall the now Russian charge into the city centre.

The Russians will have to stop there, otherwise they will have to ford the river with disasterous results.

There have been videos of Ukranian Territorial Defense units complaining of the lack of artillery, armour, and weapons in general in that sector. Seems a lot of them don’t have any armour plating or ammo for their rifles, and no anti tank weapons. Read a week ago Zelenskyy fired his top TDF general, possibly for these reasons.