Author Topic: Russia launches invasion of Ukraine (*) & use spoiler tags for anything graphic!  (Read 562624 times)

Offline bigbonedrawky

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First warcrime trial for murdering a civilian is taking place today,the 21 year old has pleaded guilty and he's potentially looking at a life sentance.

Offline So... Howard Phillips

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First warcrime trial for murdering a civilian is taking place today,the 21 year old has pleaded guilty and he's potentially looking at a life sentance.

He looks about 10. And he was commanding a tank!

Offline Bend It Like Aurelio

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First warcrime trial for murdering a civilian is taking place today,the 21 year old has pleaded guilty and he's potentially looking at a life sentance.

I don't like the timing of this trial, coinciding with the swap exchange of the prisoners from Azovstal. I think it just encourages the Russians to do mock trials over there.

Offline 24∗7

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I don't like the timing of this trial, coinciding with the swap exchange of the prisoners from Azovstal. I think it just encourages the Russians to do mock trials over there.
They don't even need to do that. If they declare Axov a terrorist group, they will just use that as an excuse not to follow international protocols over PoWs. 😳
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Offline Bend It Like Aurelio

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They don't even need to do that. If they declare Axov a terrorist group, they will just use that as an excuse not to follow international protocols over PoWs. 😳

Contrary to popular belief though, many of the soldiers that were present in Mariupol are regular Ukrainian Marines and Territorial Defense units. Azov actually are only a fraction of the total, some of the battalion are still active fighting in the Donbas region.

It's easy to get dragged into the narrative.

Offline stara

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"Research from Yale shows that companies exiting Russia are taking with them revenues equal to almost half of Russia's GDP."
https://www.investmentmonitor.ai/news/companies-leaving-russia-gdp-exports-fdi

Train getting slower and slower and slower and no dicount oil/gas sales to engine bay can prop this one out. They're fucked.
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Offline bigbonedrawky

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He looks about 10. And he was commanding a tank!
Always been the way hasn't it, old men sending the young to fight their wars. Usually other peoples children.
I don't like the timing of this trial, coinciding with the swap exchange of the prisoners from Azovstal. I think it just encourages the Russians to do mock trials over there.
The sooner they get started the sooner the common soldier will start to think twice. 

Online oldfordie

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"Research from Yale shows that companies exiting Russia are taking with them revenues equal to almost half of Russia's GDP."
https://www.investmentmonitor.ai/news/companies-leaving-russia-gdp-exports-fdi

Train getting slower and slower and slower and no dicount oil/gas sales to engine bay can prop this one out. They're fucked.
Putin had a plan from start to finish. the timing of the invasion was one of the most important pluses for him. economic turmoil all over the western world due to Covid would deter the west from coming to Ukraine's pleas for help. he got that badly wrong. he's left with the last part of his plan which western politicians still fear. the economic effects of the war on fuel prices and food etc. how the politicians will fear the wrath of voters come election day. I think he's still holding onto that one hope. he still believes the West will come crawling back to help them out of a hole. am not saying Russia will come out of this ok, they are f...
Putins done more harm to his cause than good. all the weaker countries who would have been fearful of Russia are now taking sides against Russia. the future if Ukraine looks more healthy than the future of Russia, Putin has been a disaster for Russia, a old man still stuck in his own twisted version of the past.
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Offline bigbonedrawky

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Contrary to popular belief though, many of the soldiers that were present in Mariupol are regular Ukrainian Marines and Territorial Defense units. Azov actually are only a fraction of the total, some of the battalion are still active fighting in the Donbas region.

It's easy to get dragged into the narrative.
I mentioned this before they'll be checking for tattoo's and social media post's,from the relatively mild "Ukraine for the Ukrainian's" type of thing
to any hint of hatred for Russian's, Jews or a tendency for White Supremacy. And, like 24/7 says they'll be treated as Terrorist and most likely, wont get a trial..

And No I'm not saying that kind of thing Isn't present within Russian society and military it's just what I think they'll use to justify their actions.

Offline Yorkykopite

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I mentioned this before they'll be checking for tattoo's and social media post's,from the relatively mild "Ukraine for the Ukrainian's" type of thing
to any hint of hatred for Russian's, Jews or a tendency for White Supremacy. And, like 24/7 says they'll be treated as Terrorist and most likely, wont get a trial..

And No I'm not saying that kind of thing Isn't present within Russian society and military it's just what I think they'll use to justify their actions.

Isn't that pretty much what you used to do back in 2014 when you used to come on here and explain that Putin was the good guy and Ukraine was full of fascists?
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Offline 24∗7

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It's easy to get dragged into the narrative.
You and I know that - most of the planet knows that - it's easy for Russia though to change the narrative to suit them and hold 900+ soldiers hostage on the basis of yet another lie - this is more akin to the point I was trying to make.
"Love does not claim possession, but gives freedom." - Rabindranath Tagore.

Offline Bend It Like Aurelio

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You and I know that - most of the planet knows that - it's easy for Russia though to change the narrative to suit them and hold 900+ soldiers hostage on the basis of yet another lie - this is more akin to the point I was trying to make.

The deputy commander of the Azov regiment put out a video recently, combined with the Russians claiming that the leadership of the said regiment were not found, signals to me that the surrendered soldiers were probably mostly Ukrainian regulars and reservists. The couple of interviews I’ve seen of hospitalised soldiers who surrendered were also Marines.

In effect, with supplies low, they probably reduced the numbers in Azovstal to keep the operation going longer. And I think there is probably a no surrender clause for a few members of that regiment. If I was to make a morbid thought, one could argue that the few left are probably tasked to dispose of the remaining bodies and create the illusion of an ‘immortal’ regiment, as they may not be found for a long time to come.

Think the Russians will create any narrative they want, but their credibility is so low at the moment that whatever news they put out will be highly suspect at best. But it is a sad ending nevertheless considering the number of lives lost in that city in such a short time.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2022, 07:23:59 pm by Bend It Like Aurelio »

Offline 24∗7

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The deputy commander of the Azov regiment put out a video recently, combined with the Russians claiming that the leadership of the said regiment were not found, signals to me that the surrendered soldiers were probably mostly Ukrainian regulars and reservists. The couple of interviews I’ve seen of hospitalised soldiers who surrendered were also Marines.

In effect, with supplies low, they probably reduced the numbers in Azovstal to keep the operation going longer. And I think there is probably a no surrender clause for a few members of that regiment. If I was to make a morbid thought, one could argue that the few left are probably tasked to dispose of the remaining bodies and create the illusion of an ‘immortal’ regiment, as they may not be found for a long time to come.

Think the Russians will create any narrative they want, but their credibility is so low at the moment that whatever news they put out will be highly suspect at best. But it is a sad ending nevertheless considering the number of lives lost in that city in such a short time.
Sobering read - and saddening, yes.
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Offline Barrow Shaun

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We are still in Poland trying to deal with red tape about the fucking cat.

Weeks ago the UK gave Ana a permission/visa letter but here we are, a month later.

I wonder how many people have had added trauma/just given up because of this shit. We can't get a ferry, board a plane or anything until this is sorted. A fucking cat for God's sake.

Losing the will to live.

Shaun, Ana and the cat.
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Offline bigbonedrawky

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Isn't that pretty much what you used to do back in 2014 when you used to come on here and explain that Putin was the good guy and Ukraine was full of fascists?
Vlad da Bad the good guy, damn I know the youth of today often use bad =  good but I've never been that trendy. I didnt realise you were either.
Ukraine full of fascist I rarely generalise and if it was they wouldn't of needed loads of Neo Nazi's flooding in from western Europe and Scandinavia to fight the old enemy.
Good riddance I thought.
While you were busy with the second coming of Hitler (JC ) I watched the equivalent of a bunch of kippers distill into Britain First types and finally morph into an hardcore National Action.  But I still wouldn't judge the 99 % on the actions of the 1%.
Of course it could of all been Russian propaganda from the FBI, Washington Post, BBC Newsnight, DW and Vice, it might all of been orchestrated by the puppetmaster that is Vlad da bad.
 Now given your quite famous for speaking  of fascist and Nazi's. I'd of thought you'd of been on it like a car bonnet so to speak but then I thought of the old adage about "My enemies enemy " as to why you may be turning a blind eye to an awkward truth.   :-\
 You did however genuinely surprise me the other week though... Speaking of which has John Mann and his camera crew caught up with you yet ? 

Offline KillieRed

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President Vladimir Putin has said that the number of cyber attacks on Russia by foreign “state structures” had increased, and that Moscow would need to bolster its cyber defences by cutting the risk of using foreign software and hardware.

“Purposeful attempts are being made to disable the Internet resources of Russia’s critical information infrastructure”, Reuters reports Putin saying.

-You live by the sword...

If he hadn`t pilfered his nations treasury perhaps he`d have a real army to back up his imperial aspirations, but instead he`s used some of that money to wage cyber war, pay foreign shills & agents and gain influence in the "third world". His greed will probably be his downfall.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2022/may/20/russia-ukraine-war-russia-has-turned-donbas-into-hell-zelenskiy-says-us-senate-approves-40bn-in-aid-for-ukraine-live
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Offline Mister Flip Flop

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Just had to sit and listen to a work colleague tell me the Monkey Pox virus is a bio weapon released by Russia on the west. Let him blab on for about 2 minutes before i got up and walked out.

The internet has a lot to answer for.
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Offline Flaccido Dongingo

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Just had to sit and listen to a work colleague tell me the Monkey Pox virus is a bio weapon released by Russia on the west. Let him blab on for about 2 minutes before i got up and walked out.

The internet has a lot to answer for.
I was genuinely wondering how long it would be until the crazies started peddling this particular narrative, they realise biological weapons of this nature are indiscriminate?, and would end up back in Russia killing his own people too?

Offline mickeydocs

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Just had to sit and listen to a work colleague tell me the Monkey Pox virus is a bio weapon released by Russia on the west. Let him blab on for about 2 minutes before i got up and walked out.

The internet has a lot to answer for.

Just had someone tell me vlad isn’t as bad as Bill Gates. Alleges that Gates created covid so is infinitely worse than putin. I need a drink.
It’s easy to believe when it’s going well.

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I was genuinely wondering how long it would be until the crazies started peddling this particular narrative, they realise biological weapons of this nature are indiscriminate?, and would end up back in Russia killing his own people too?

I'm not sure this is the silver bullet to debunk the theory, to be honest! Not that I give it any credence whatsoever of course...!

Offline "21C or 70F?" SchizoidWeatherMan!

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We are still in Poland trying to deal with red tape about the fucking cat.

Weeks ago the UK gave Ana a permission/visa letter but here we are, a month later.

I wonder how many people have had added trauma/just given up because of this shit. We can't get a ferry, board a plane or anything until this is sorted. A fucking cat for God's sake.

Losing the will to live.

Shaun, Ana and the cat.

Stay strong, it will be sorted out soon. You've waited this long. And hey, at least you are not stuck in Ukraine.,,🙂
Phuk yoo

Offline Flaccido Dongingo

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I'm not sure this is the silver bullet to debunk the theory, to be honest! Not that I give it any credence whatsoever of course...!
I didn't say it was, was merely making the point that biological weapons are indiscriminate.

Offline Yorkykopite

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Unexpected signs that Russian state propaganda isn't sweeping the field?

 https://twitter.com/Billbrowder/status/1528122626438221824
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Offline Bend It Like Aurelio

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The Ukrainians seem to be losing a bit of steam in the war. It's giving up a lot of territory in the East, looks like the Russians have changed their tactics to something more conservative and traditional instead of attempting to copy Western style combined arms attacks.

Offline 24∗7

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The Ukrainians seem to be losing a bit of steam in the war. It's giving up a lot of territory in the East, looks like the Russians have changed their tactics to something more conservative and traditional instead of attempting to copy Western style combined arms attacks.
Scorched earth policy won them 10% of Finland. They've not changed tactics (sucessfully) in 300 years.......
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Offline Bend It Like Aurelio

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Scorched earth policy won them 10% of Finland. They've not changed tactics (sucessfully) in 300 years.......

It's true. The stuff they are doing now is exactly the same as the Soviets used in WW2. Large artillery barrages followed by mass attacks. The problem is the Ukrainians are stuck with static battles in the East because they lack the heavy armour and artillery needed to break through Russian lines.

It's a race against time. The Ukrainians are still training their mobilized reservists, who may not come online until later next month.

Offline KillieRed

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https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/may/23/george-orwell-1984-about-liberalism-not-totalitarianism-claims-moscow-diplomat


Orwell’s Nineteen Eighty-Four was about liberalism, not totalitarianism, claims Moscow diplomat
Maria Zakharova says idea book is about totalitarianism is ‘one of the biggest global fakes’, in claim disputed by Russian translator

George Orwell’s dystopian classic Nineteen Eighty-Four was written to describe the dangers of western liberalism – not totalitarianism - a top Moscow diplomat has claimed.

“For many years we believed that Orwell described the horrors of totalitarianism. This is one of the biggest global fakes … Orwell wrote about the end of liberalism. He depicted how liberalism would lead humanity to a dead end,” Maria Zakharova, the spokesperson for Russia’s foreign ministry, said during a public talk in Ekaterinburg on Saturday.

Published in 1949, the book is seen as a cautionary tale warning of the consequences of totalitarianism and mass surveillance. Orwell is believed to have modelled the totalitarian government depicted in the novel on Nazi Germany and Stalinist Russia.

Zakharova had been asked by a member of the public how to respond to friends and relatives abroad when they suggested that Russia was living in a modern-day replay of Orwell’s novel.

“Orwell did not write about the USSR, it wasn’t about us,” she said. “He wrote about the society in which he lived, about the collapse of the ideas of liberalism. And you were made to believe that Orwell wrote it about you.” Zakharova suggested the audience member tell her relatives abroad: “It’s you in the west who live in a fantasy world where a person can be cancelled.”

Russia’s aggressive state media campaign to justify its invasion of Ukraine has drawn comparisons to Nineteen Eighty-Four and its most celebrated line: “War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength.”


Moscow has mobilised the full force of the state propaganda machine to portray Vladimir Putin’s invasion as a defensive campaign to “liberate” Ukraine, and authorities have introduced strict laws banning the description of the country’s actions in Ukraine as “war” and “an invasion”.


Despite, or perhaps because of, Moscow’s efforts, sales of Nineteen Eighty-Four have risen sharply in Russia recently, with one marketplace saying they had witnessed a 75% increase.

There has also been anecdotal evidence that Russian soldiers fighting in Ukraine have turned to Nineteen Eighty-Four. When one Ukrainian couple returned to their home last month after the Russian retreat from Irpin, a town just outside of Kyiv, they found that a Russian-language copy of Nineteen Eighty-Four had been removed from their shelf and lay open on the sofa, suggesting that the Russian soldiers had been reading it.

Viktor Golyshev, a prominent linguist who translated the novel into Russian, disputed Zakharova’s assertions and said the novel was “not at all” about the decline of liberalism.

“I think it is a novel about a totalitarian state. When he wrote it, totalitarian states were already in decline, but between the first and second world wars, half of Europe had totalitarian governments. At the time there was no decline of liberalism, not at all,” the translator said.

It is not the first time Russian officials have blasted liberalism. In 2019, Putin told the Financial Times that liberalism was “obsolete”.

In 2017, while comparing mainstream western media to “Big Brother”, the leader of the totalitarian state in Orwell’s novel, Zakharova mistakenly called the book 1982.

Across the border in Belarus, itself subjected to a crackdown on civil society and freedom of speech, authorities last week banned Nineteen Eighty-Four and local publishers were instructed to withdraw it from their shelves.

{Insert the "Sure, Jan" meme gif}

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Offline Bend It Like Aurelio

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Offline Yorkykopite

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https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/may/23/george-orwell-1984-about-liberalism-not-totalitarianism-claims-moscow-diplomat


Orwell’s Nineteen Eighty-Four was about liberalism, not totalitarianism, claims Moscow diplomat.

That sounds like something a character out of '1984' might say.
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Offline Yorkykopite

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Kissinger - yes he's still alive- explains that Ukraine should reward Russian aggression by giving Putin some of their territory. This is the cynical 'hard-nosed' realpolitik that Kissinger has advocated throughout his career. It's an approach to world affairs which says that the Powerful have an inalienable right to crush the Weak. It's the same view as currently held by Putin (of course) and by the likes of John Mearsheimer and Noam Chomsky.

https://www.theweek.in/news/world/2022/05/24/henry-kissinger-says-ukraine-should-give-up-territory-in-a-bid-to-find-a-peace-deal.html
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Offline Zlen

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Kissinger has been weirdly reformed in the past decade.
I guess all the mice crawled out for a merry dance after Hitchens died.

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Kissinger has been weirdly reformed in the past decade.
I guess all the mice crawled out for a merry dance after Hitchens died.


Bundesliga's finished and his team were 10 points adrift at the bottom, so he's probably got some anger issues.
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Offline AndyInVA

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Kissinger - yes he's still alive- explains that Ukraine should reward Russian aggression by giving Putin some of their territory. This is the cynical 'hard-nosed' realpolitik that Kissinger has advocated throughout his career. It's an approach to world affairs which says that the Powerful have an inalienable right to crush the Weak. It's the same view as currently held by Putin (of course) and by the likes of John Mearsheimer and Noam Chomsky.

https://www.theweek.in/news/world/2022/05/24/henry-kissinger-says-ukraine-should-give-up-territory-in-a-bid-to-find-a-peace-deal.html

I couldnn't believe that either. One, that Kissinger was still alive, two, that in a rush to get back to peace, Russia should just be rewarded with land and Ukraine should just suck it up. I hope that view is not supported by world leaders who would stop the supply of weapons if Ukraine did not just get in line. I would hope that enough weapons are supplied and put into Ukraine to allow Russia to be pushed back to the former borders.

Offline Yorkykopite

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I couldnn't believe that either. One, that Kissinger was still alive, two, that in a rush to get back to peace, Russia should just be rewarded with land and Ukraine should just suck it up. I hope that view is not supported by world leaders who would stop the supply of weapons if Ukraine did not just get in line. I would hope that enough weapons are supplied and put into Ukraine to allow Russia to be pushed back to the former borders.

I should have added that Kissinger believes that aggression should be rewarded when it is committed by ALL Great Powers, including the United States. Noam Chomsky however believes it should only be rewarded when the aggressor is someone the United States doesn't like. Russia is a perfect candidate of course.

On that note, this is an excellent criticism of Chomsky's support for Russian imperialism. It's from three Ukrainian scholars. https://blogs.berkeley.edu/2022/05/19/open-letter-to-noam-chomsky-and-other-like-minded-intellectuals-on-the-russia-ukraine-war/
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Offline leroy

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Kissinger - yes he's still alive- explains that Ukraine should reward Russian aggression by giving Putin some of their territory. This is the cynical 'hard-nosed' realpolitik that Kissinger has advocated throughout his career. It's an approach to world affairs which says that the Powerful have an inalienable right to crush the Weak. It's the same view as currently held by Putin (of course) and by the likes of John Mearsheimer and Noam Chomsky.

https://www.theweek.in/news/world/2022/05/24/henry-kissinger-says-ukraine-should-give-up-territory-in-a-bid-to-find-a-peace-deal.html

Kissinger is a fraud and a war criminal and no one should listen to a word he says. If he opens his mouth the nearest sane person should be shoving a fist down his throat.

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I couldnn't believe that either. One, that Kissinger was still alive, two, that in a rush to get back to peace, Russia should just be rewarded with land and Ukraine should just suck it up. I hope that view is not supported by world leaders who would stop the supply of weapons if Ukraine did not just get in line. I would hope that enough weapons are supplied and put into Ukraine to allow Russia to be pushed back to the former borders.

It's unlikely at this point, but who knows in the long term?  The US might flip, and if that happened I expect Germany would happily follow suit.  I'm not sure about France or the UK though, and I suspect the likes of Poland, the Baltic States etc would flat refuse to toe that line.
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Offline AndyInVA

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It's unlikely at this point, but who knows in the long term?  The US might flip, and if that happened I expect Germany would happily follow suit.  I'm not sure about France or the UK though, and I suspect the likes of Poland, the Baltic States etc would flat refuse to toe that line.

That is my thought too. I don't think Biden has the stones for it though.

I am assuming Zelensky will never ever agree.
If Zelensky doesn't agree he will fight.
If the supply of weapons dries up then there is every chance he will lose and lose badly and maybe lose everything.
Ukraine will look like Afghanistan if Russia wins and it will make Biden look like a shit if he pulls out support now when pretty much no regular person would support just giving Russia the land.

Offline Barrow Shaun

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Stay strong, it will be sorted out soon. You've waited this long. And hey, at least you are not stuck in Ukraine.,,🙂

Thanks, no worries.

Happy to see China's genocide exposed further today also.
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Offline bigbonedrawky

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I should have added that Kissinger believes that aggression should be rewarded when it is committed by ALL Great Powers, including the United States. Noam Chomsky however believes it should only be rewarded when the aggressor is someone the United States doesn't like. Russia is a perfect candidate of course.

On that note, this is an excellent criticism of Chomsky's support for Russian imperialism. It's from three Ukrainian scholars. https://blogs.berkeley.edu/2022/05/19/open-letter-to-noam-chomsky-and-other-like-minded-intellectuals-on-the-russia-ukraine-war/
Chomsky's own words:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YeRX6ZYXH0 funnily enough he describes the Russian invasion of Ukraine as "pure aggression and criminal aggression " he also describes in someway how consent is manufactured in Russia and how descent is silenced ( A couple of things you'd agree with ) but points out how all press are good at highlighting the war-crimes of others.
He also talks of how Russian censorship differs from the UK when talking of Orwells Animal Farm and the censorship of the introduction to the novel, ( Ironically  a criticism of the UK's own censorship ) And how censorship in the US is reaching scary levels when it comes to education and history etc

As for Kissinger going from your opinions on places like Cuba Venezuela Libya Iran Iraq Syria and Israel etc and how they all tally with the ideals of Kissinger's real politic and American hedgemony...Is it your belief only the US should be rewarded for pure aggression but not places like Russia or China ? 

PS Anyone see George Dubya's conscience kicking in the other day: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eH3QqcUJnBY
« Last Edit: May 24, 2022, 10:50:46 pm by bigbonedrawky »

Online Red Berry

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That is my thought too. I don't think Biden has the stones for it though.

I am assuming Zelensky will never ever agree.
If Zelensky doesn't agree he will fight.
If the supply of weapons dries up then there is every chance he will lose and lose badly and maybe lose everything.
Ukraine will look like Afghanistan if Russia wins and it will make Biden look like a shit if he pulls out support now when pretty much no regular person would support just giving Russia the land.

I think the big issue with Biden will how the midterms influence his ability to get anything done. He's struggling enough with Manchin and Sinema, but if the GOP regain either or both houses they will happily use Ukraine as a stick to beat him with, and damn the consequences for Ukraine itself.

PS: meant to say earlier to Shaun that I'm keeping him and his family (and the cat) in my thoughts. Stay the course mate.  :wave
« Last Edit: May 24, 2022, 10:42:16 pm by Red Berry »
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