Author Topic: Russia launches invasion of Ukraine (*) & use spoiler tags for anything graphic!  (Read 951060 times)

Offline Yorkykopite

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I was speaking to someone from the Czech Republic the other day: she was convinced that we (the West) were preparing to invade Russia, and that Putin had a right to defend his country.  She didn't really want to talk about it at all, and changed the subject quite quickly.  Obviously, we disagreed quite a bit.



Well being Czech she ought to know all about Russian invasions of her own country.
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Offline Red-Soldier

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Well being Czech she ought to know all about Russian invasions of her own country.

That's what I was thinking.

Maybe, it was still the old communist way of thinking.

Offline Yorkykopite

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That's what I was thinking.

Maybe, it was still the old communist way of thinking.
Maybe. But I thought a Czech - even a Commie Czech - might have wondered about all the Russian opponents of the war falling out of windows. Jan Masaryk and all that....

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Maybe. But I thought a Czech - even a Commie Czech - might have wondered about all the Russian opponents of the war falling out of windows. Jan Masaryk and all that....

At the end of the day, you have nutcases in every country and you'll find people supporting crazy things no matter where you look even if they shouldn't be from a historical point of view. People forget stuff (or they've not lived through it) or they just don't care about the past. You have neonazis celebrating Hitler's birthday in Poland. You have white supremacists in the US flying Swastika-flags. You have Viktor Orban supporting Putin. You have poor people voting for rich c*nts like Trump or Johnson. There are idiots and selfish people everywhere and if it fits their agenda they'll support everything even if for most others they shouldn't be according to what background they're from.

Offline kcbworth

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Someone has put together a list of different types of Russian sympathisers - supports the observations on this thread https://www.reddit.com/r/NonCredibleDefense/comments/xtqr7k/a_list_of_the_types_of_prorussian_sympathizers/

Offline Robinred

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I'd rather he's overthrown, he's not worth cremating the world for.

Like you Debs, I had for a long time assumed that if only we (the world) could see Putin somehow ‘removed’, things would immediately de-escalate and Ukraine and the rest of us could return to normal (whatever that means).

But on yesterday’s BBC4 P.M, Evan Davies interviewed John Simpson - currently in Moscow for BBC, and the FT’s Max Seddon. The gist of the conversation was, remarkably, that Putin is currently a moderating force in the Kremlin, and the newly promoted commander of the Ukraine war, General Surovikin, is having to be reigned in by Putin. Surovkin has a long history of waging war with scant regard for human life - civilian or military.

I cannot get out of my thinking the paranoia, plotting and backstabbing, which Russian communism creates for itself in a vicious circle, exemplified by Iannuci’s wonderfully dark ‘The death of Stalin’.
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Offline Red Beret

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Starting to think Putin will use the G20 trip to claim asylum and try the "it's everyone else who's crazy over there" defence. :o
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Offline KillieRed

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Not sure this really goes in this thread, but this is Adam Curtis`s view on the rise of Putin and the oligarchs:

https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2022/oct/12/russia-adam-curtis-extreme-capitalism-liz-truss-traumazone

‘They are stealing Russia’: Adam Curtis on how hyper-capitalism wrecked a nation – and why Liz Truss must take heed

In the 1990s, Russia embraced an extreme economics that led to chaos and corruption. Now, writes the maker of explosive new series TraumaZone, Liz Truss is taking Britain down the same toxic path

Adam Curtis
Wed 12 Oct 2022 06.00 BST
The central mystery of our time is why, at a moment when the whole political and social system is out of control and in total chaos, no one seems able to imagine any alternative. The economic system is not delivering the good life it once promised, but is instead creating chaos and hardship for millions. Meanwhile, those in charge of the system are profiting massively from that chaos, feeding off the uncertainty. And the political class are in thrall to an economic theory that has become absurd and corrupted.

I’ve just made TraumaZone, a series of films about another time when that was happening. It was in Russia in the 1990s after communism collapsed. Those in charge began an experiment to create an extreme form of capitalism. I made it because I don’t think we in the west understand what the Russians went through: a cataclysm that tore apart the foundations of society.

As the new elite staged lavish balls, bewildered shoppers were told: 'There are no potatoes in Moscow'
The films are made using a unique source of material: thousands of hours of raw footage recorded by BBC crews in Russia during that time, much of it never seen before. What makes it so extraordinary is that it records the experiences of Russians at every level of society as their world fell apart: from inside the Kremlin to the frozen mining cities of the Arctic circle, from life in the tiny villages of the vast steppes to the strange wars fought in the mountains and forests of the Caucasus.


As I watched the footage I decided that I shouldn’t use my voice or paste music over it. The material was so strong that I didn’t want to intrude pointlessly, but rather let viewers simply experience what was happening, because it is was out of this – the anger, violence, desperation and overwhelming corruption – that Vladimir Putin emerged. But as I made the films, the growing chaos here in Britain made me see parallels. There are of course vast differences between our society and the Russia of 30 years ago, but the more you find out about the extreme economic experiment there, and what is happening here now with the present government, the more you see that they both share very similar roots that have nothing to do with either capitalism or communism.


The clue lies in the man who imposed the “shock therapy” experiment on Russia. Called Yegor Gaidar, he was at the heart of the communist establishment. His grandfather was the most famous writer of children’s books in the Soviet Union, and Gaidar had married the daughter of one of the Strugatsky brothers, science-fiction writers who wrote the novel the film Stalker was based on. This economist who would become acting prime minister set out to create a perfect capitalist system in Russia. He had to do it fast, he said, to stop communism from ever returning. Overnight, he removed all controls over prices, while the government gave up on any attempt to manage the system. The aim, said Gaidar, was to create a new zone of perfect freedom in which, despite initial pain, the system would find its own natural equilibrium.

But if you look closer, you will see that his plan had little to do with freedom. It was in fact an odd, machine-like vision of the world driven by pseudoscientific ideas. Gaidar believed that by unleashing “free market forces” on an extreme scale, they would act as “market stimuli” that would then automatically lead people into “rational” patterns of behaviour. In reality, it was a simplified engineering system where human beings would be reshaped, turned into the right kinds of beings to make the new system work. In that way, it was like a reverse image of the Soviet plan. It was still a way of controlling behaviour through levers, but just a different way.



And it didn’t work. It led to total chaos.

The present government in Britain under Liz Truss has just announced its own experiment with extreme capitalism. The roots of her idea lie with the famous Austrian-British economist Friedrich Hayek. Both the right and the left see him as the man who masterminded the return of the free market, what is called “neoliberalism”. But I think Hayek, who was a powerful influence on Gaidar, was actually far stranger than that.

Hayek believed that economics was the key to the future of the world because it would stop governments trying to imagine new kinds of societies. He wrote a book called The Road to Serfdom, saying that in the new age of the mass, it was impossible to impose a vision of the future on to millions of people without leading to horror – like fascism and communism had. Instead, Hayek had an epic vision in which millions of people would together create a stable social system through the signals they send each other. At the heart of that was the pricing system. Governments should pull back and not control prices – and instead allow a “spontaneous order” without central control. The people, not politicians, would create the new society together as “economic actors”.



Up to that point, economics had been important in government, but only as a tool to help manage the societies politicians wanted to build. But in 1979, when Margaret Thatcher came to power, she began an experiment that brought economic logic into the very heart of the political system. The problem was that it almost immediately went haywire. It not only created massive inflation but was one of the main reasons for the de-industrialisation of British society. As her senior advisers admitted, Thatcher very quickly gave up on the experiment and turned instead to the banks to lend people money. And a wave of cheap money and debt covered up the problems until the financial crash of 2008.

In reality, the grand ideas of Gaidar and Hayek had very little to do with ideas of the free market. They were actually rooted in old dreams born in the 19th century that science and rational systems could be used on a grand scale to replace politics, because that would avoid the human messiness and uncertainties that continually push politics off course. In fact, the system Gaidar set out to replace – the Soviet plan – was also rooted in those pseudo-scientific dreams. It had little to do with communism.

In the 1930s, in the Soviet Union under Stalin, the old ideology fell away and was replaced by a giant experiment. Human beings became simplified into components in a system that could be managed in a rational way with predictable outcomes. Those ideas also flourished in America in the 1930s. A mass movement called “technocracy” rose up. Hundreds of men and women, dressed “rationally” in grey outfits, travelled through the US calling for what they called a “Technate”, a new kind of society that would be run rationally by engineers. One of their leading members was Elon Musk’s grandfather.



But all these movements were really the product of a weird overreach of science attempting to grab and colonise the political realm. And in reality, those experiments always failed. Whether in the Soviet Union, or in 1980s Britain, or under Gaidar’s shock therapy, and now with Liz Truss, it never creates a rational system. It actually creates the opposite: a system that becomes increasingly unequal and open to exploitation by a small elite. And there are no political levers to stop them.

In Russia, the films show moments that capture the terrifying speed with which the chasm between rich and poor opened up. Thousands couldn’t even afford food or pay for heating while the health service collapsed around them. Bewildered shoppers are told “there are no potatoes in Moscow”, while the new elite restage elaborate 18th-century balls in old palaces outside St Petersburg.

We see the ruthless self-interest of managers and gangsters as they discover more and more ways to loot the failing state, with machines in the oligarchs’ “banks” endlessly counting millions of rouble notes before they are moved into offshore zones. And no one in the political system could stop them. At the heart of all this was an increasingly drunken president Yeltsin who sat in the Kremlin staring at the wall saying to his bodyguard: “They are stealing Russia.”


And in Britain, quantitative easing and the extreme rise in asset prices and property it brought about are as destructive to the lives of millions of ordinary people as were the oligarchs in Russia in the 1990s. The kind of freedom that this sort of technate offers is always very limited: people are just components in a system, free to do what they want, but only within the narrow logic of the iron cage of pseudoscientific economics. A world where they dance, but only in those chains.

At this time of economic chaos, it feels imperative to reassess what both the west and Russia actually went through in the past 50 years. Perhaps it was neither communism nor the free market that failed, but the Technate. We should clear away the pseudoscience of economics that has politicians trapped in a death grip – and look again at both capitalism and communism for the human values and aspirations they contain. And from that could come real alternative visions of the future.

 Russia 1985-1999 TraumaZone: What It Felt Like to Live Through the Collapse of Communism and Democracy is on iPlayer from 13 October
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Offline BarryCrocker

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So apparently have identified a number of Ukrainian, Russian and Armenians who they say plotted the truck bombing of the bridge.

A few days it was reported that this is a 'still' from a video of the alleged truck



Today the FSB have released this x-ray of the alleged truck.



Firstly, if it was x-rayed why wasn't it stopped.
Secondly, the second picture shows a truck that as a single axle on the rig while the original has a double.
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Offline thaddeus

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So apparently have identified a number of Ukrainian, Russian and Armenians who they say plotted the truck bombing of the bridge.

A few days it was reported that this is a 'still' from a video of the alleged truck



Today the FSB have released this x-ray of the alleged truck.



Firstly, if it was x-rayed why wasn't it stopped.
Secondly, the second picture shows a truck that as a single axle on the rig while the original has a double.
It does all seem a bit convenient.

You'd think in the middle of a war and defending such an important (and symbolic) piece of infrastructure they'd be eagle eyed for anything resembling a bomb.  That said, it could just be that the person supposedly looking at the x-rays was dicking around on their mobile!

I thought the whole truck bomb idea had been disputed anyway as the blast seems to have come from below.

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Thought the lad on the left was Lovren at first glance.

Offline Gerry Attrick

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Thought the lad on the left was Lovren at first glance.

One of the foreign players who is still willing to accept a wage and play for a Russian team. Doesn’t surprise me with him though.

Offline didi shamone

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So apparently have identified a number of Ukrainian, Russian and Armenians who they say plotted the truck bombing of the bridge.

A few days it was reported that this is a 'still' from a video of the alleged truck



Today the FSB have released this x-ray of the alleged truck.



Firstly, if it was x-rayed why wasn't it stopped.
Secondly, the second picture shows a truck that as a single axle on the rig while the original has a double.

Amazing how quickly they can solve complex cases like this , but when opponents of Putin get murdered the culprit always eludes them.

Offline redbyrdz

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I'm more wondering who the people are they have arrested for that, and what sort of example trial they are going to do.

I'd bet they are either long-term critics who they couldn't nail down before, or people with famous relations abroad.

Obviously they won't actually have anything to do with the bridge.
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Offline Musketeer Gripweed

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So apparently have identified a number of Ukrainian, Russian and Armenians who they say plotted the truck bombing of the bridge.

A few days it was reported that this is a 'still' from a video of the alleged truck



Today the FSB have released this x-ray of the alleged truck.



Firstly, if it was x-rayed why wasn't it stopped.
Secondly, the second picture shows a truck that as a single axle on the rig while the original has a double.

They would have got away with it if it wasn't for those pesky kids FSB.

Offline rafathegaffa83

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Not even nine months in. That would be more than the Soviet-Afghan War if true (based on the Wikipedia figures)

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Russia's "irrecoverable losses" in the war with Ukraine have just become known: according to an FSB source, that figure is 90K. This includes troops who were killed, went missing, died from wounds, or were disabled and cannot return to military service.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2022, 08:27:13 pm by rafathegaffa83 »

Offline Red Beret

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Not even nine months in. That would be more than the Soviet-Afghan War if true (based on the Wikipedia figures)

Meduza in English@meduza_en
Russia's "irrecoverable losses" in the war with Ukraine have just become known: according to an FSB source, that figure is 90K. This includes troops who were killed, went missing, died from wounds, or were disabled and cannot return to military service.

Bloody hell.

I wonder how many of those are grunts, compared to those with specialised training, such as tank drivers?
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Offline Libertine

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Bloody hell.

I wonder how many of those are grunts, compared to those with specialised training, such as tank drivers?

Wonder how much specialised training this driver had??!!

https://twitter.com/JimmySecUK/status/1580297887782645760

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Would you drive over this??!!
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Offline BarryCrocker

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Wonder how much specialised training this driver had??!!

https://twitter.com/JimmySecUK/status/1580297887782645760

Is that a survivor at 20sec mark?
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Is that a survivor at 20sec mark?
I think it is one of the soldiers who inspected the wreckage after the blast. It looks strange because the camera angle is from almost directly above and he has on a backpack. Or, at least, that's how it appears to me.
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Offline Red Beret

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Wonder how much specialised training this driver had??!!

https://twitter.com/JimmySecUK/status/1580297887782645760

The other day I watched a video on thunder runs, which referenced how the US would drive tanks at high speed over AT mines to set them off and clear a path for the armoured column behind them.

This is not the way to do it!
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Offline Red Beret

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Latest Ukraine report.  Things are looking positive, but I dread to think how many young lives are being ruined.

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/HvHCXj-tmmQ" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/HvHCXj-tmmQ</a>
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Offline Schmidt

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Latest Ukraine report.  Things are looking positive, but I dread to think how many young lives are being ruined.

Seems like it's been quite slow this past week or so, lots of positioning and shuffling of resources but little ground gained. The two channels I've been watching seem to be predicting big pushes in a couple of different areas over the coming weeks but also lots of Russians reinforcing positions, so we'll see how it goes.

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Iran's elite troops secretly enter Ukraine frontline to aid Putin's horror blitz

It's been known for a few weeks that Russia is using Iranian drones but seems like they've also deployed some of their special forces.  It would be a shame for their despots if anything big were to kick off domestically... Oh.

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Latest on Ukraine dealing with Russian counter attacks


<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/621hfzVT55Y" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/621hfzVT55Y</a>
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It's been known for a few weeks that Russia is using Iranian drones but seems like they've also deployed some of their special forces.  It would be a shame for their despots if anything big were to kick off domestically... Oh.

I’m surprised the drones can get through Ukrainian air defences around Kiev, it’s one thing for a fast moving missile to get through, but a relatively slow moving drone?
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Offline Elmo!

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I’m surprised the drones can get through Ukrainian air defences around Kiev, it’s one thing for a fast moving missile to get through, but a relatively slow moving drone?

Is it not to do with their size making them much harder to detect with Radar etc?

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<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/Zl7Q2Z142Jg" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/Zl7Q2Z142Jg</a>
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« Last Edit: October 17, 2022, 06:34:45 pm by Jiminy Cricket »
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Those drones hitting apartment blocks in Kyiv is a fucking war crime.

Offline KillieRed

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Those drones hitting apartment blocks in Kyiv is a fucking war crime.

Who’s going to hold him to account? If Ukraine replied in kind he'd just use it as an excuse to up the ante. All because the bunker dwarf has been humiliated.
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I’m surprised the drones can get through Ukrainian air defences around Kiev, it’s one thing for a fast moving missile to get through, but a relatively slow moving drone?

Apparently very difficult for air defences to detect due to size and low flying. Also, they send them in "swarms" which makes it even more difficult.

Hideous things. When I saw the footage yesterday it reminded me of the V1 and V2 attacks on london towards the end of WW2. Random and terrifying for people.
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Offline So… Howard Philips

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Apparently very difficult for air defences to detect due to size and low flying. Also, they send them in "swarms" which makes it even more difficult.

Hideous things. When I saw the footage yesterday it reminded me of the V1 and V2 attacks on london towards the end of WW2. Random and terrifying for people.

They sound like the Iranian drones used to attack a Saudi oilfield a couple of years back.

Wonder how long it will be before that kicks off again?

Offline Schmidt

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Ukraine are apparently close to having their own drone production ready. Russia might regret their drone attacks if Ukraine start retaliating because even if their air defenses are solid, Ukraine can force them to burn through their missiles shooting drones down, and Russia seem to be the ones struggling with supplies right now.

It sounds like calls for sanctioning Iran are starting to gather pace, both for their role in the conflict and the human rights issues happening on Iranian soil, hopefully that leads to some pressure being applied to them.

We really do need to western world to start planning for existence without these oil nations, the sooner we fuck off the reliance on them the better.

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They sound like the Iranian drones used to attack a Saudi oilfield a couple of years back.

Wonder how long it will be before that kicks off again?

Trump and his ilk will blame Biden for not being hard enough on Iran and that's why this has happened.
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Offline surfer. Fuck you generator.

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Ukraine are apparently close to having their own drone production ready. Russia might regret their drone attacks if Ukraine start retaliating because even if their air defenses are solid, Ukraine can force them to burn through their missiles shooting drones down, and Russia seem to be the ones struggling with supplies right now.

It sounds like calls for sanctioning Iran are starting to gather pace, both for their role in the conflict and the human rights issues happening on Iranian soil, hopefully that leads to some pressure being applied to them.

We really do need to western world to start planning for existence without these oil nations, the sooner we fuck off the reliance on them the better.

Yep, remember reading some speculation some days back that the US should put developing hydrogen fuel technology and infrastructure (production, storage, fuel cell, combustion) on the same footing as the Manhattan Project during the second world war. Allocate funding, scientists, engineers to that level of priority. Good work is done now on developing this tech for narrow body aircrafts in the UK, heavy commercial vehicles around the world, it's already in early stage use but to develop the storage and supply, that network will require significant funding. Iirc early to mid2030s was when it was predicted to become mainstream but channelling more funds there, especially from the US, could speed it up by a few years.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2022, 11:20:54 am by surfer. Fuck you generator. »

Offline Qston

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Hmm. I wonder if something else is going on. Ben Wallace has cancelled his select committee meeting to attend an emergency meeting in the US which needs to be face to face. That's off the back of truss conveniently having another meeting yesterday that prevented her from answering the urgent question directly. I wonder if her reason was actually the truth for once.
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Offline Gerry Attrick

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Hmm. I wonder if something else is going on. Ben Wallace has cancelled his select committee meeting to attend an emergency meeting in the US which needs to be face to face. That's off the back of truss conveniently having another meeting yesterday that prevented her from answering the urgent question directly. I wonder if her reason was actually the truth for once.

Could just be Britain being put on the naughty step for some of our so called patriots training Chinese pilots. If it was anything more sinister I suspect other nations would be at the table but Britain and America are the ones most likely to be at the front of the queue if it is war related.