Topic: The Irish Politics Thread.

[FlashGordon]

One side was fighting a war against an occupying force, the other side were......the occupiers.

[Macphisto80]

The US government was involved with supplying and aiding the IRA? Thats some claim. I think thats what you call - and I hate the useage of this term - "whataboutery", becsuse it gets flung about this forum as a argument debunker on a regular basis, even when its justified. Anyway, imagine just disregarding actual British state sanctioned murder of it own supposed citizens just because a load of IRA members fled the country and hid themselves in the States. It's not like the POTUS of the time had an open policy to shelter them. An absolutely absurd thing to even state.

[Daniel Cabbaggio]

Are you seriously comparing the collusion of the southern security forces to the British? I'm sure both happened but it's scale, and it's beyond not even close. Whataboutchery and the troubles who would have thought it?

[stockdam]

The US government was involved with supplying and aiding the IRA? Thats some claim. I think thats what you call - and I hate the useage of this term - "whataboutery", becsuse it gets flung about this forum as a argument debunker on a regular basis, even when its justified. Anyway, imagine just disregarding actual British state sanctioned murder of it own supposed citizens just because a load of IRA members fled the country and hid themselves in the States. It's not like the POTUS of the time had an open policy to shelter them. An absolutely absurd thing to even state.

Except nobody said anything about the US supplying aid to the IRA. The point of the article is that the USA swung from one extreme to another based on the relationships with either the Irish or British government. Nobody stated that the British murdered its own citizens because of what the USA did. The point is that the USA were not neutral. However that's not a big issue in the bigger picture and not something I care about.

I do care about digging up the past and making out that one "side" was worse than the other. It doesn't bring anyone back and doesn't lead anywhere other than years of wasted time and money. There are many, many people who have lost relatives and who have moved on with their lives. Every single death is important to somebody and either you decide to draw a line on the whole sordid time or you investigate every single death and who did what and who knew what.

I was talking to one woman recently who saw her father get shot right in front of her and she traced the killer who is free to come and go as he pleases. She confronted him in a bar and he denied it saying that he was only the getaway driver.........but all the eye witnesses described the driver and the gunman and she knows who killed her father. It's a disgrace that scum like this are free to walk the streets whilst she is left mentally scared for life. That's the reality of what went on. She isn't asking for an inquiry into who did what and who knew what as she has come to terms with it. The killer wasn't the British government nor were they directly involved.

[stockdam]

Are you seriously comparing the collusion of the southern security forces to the British? I'm sure both happened but it's scale, and it's beyond not even close. Whataboutchery and the troubles who would have thought it?

Ok so here we go.........collusion by the Irish security forces is ok as it wasn't "on the same scale"..........that's getting very close to sweeping it under the carpet. I couldn't care less what the scale was. It happened and it matters a huge amount to the victims. I guess we should also turn a blind eye to supplying guns to the IRA etc.

It's all wrong and people died because of it. Each life was precious if you were involved.

And leave out the whataboutery shite...........that's again trying to belittle the lives of the people who were killed. It wasn't one-sided nor will anyone be brought back to life debating who did what.

[Macphisto80]

But Dan, sweeping it under the carpet is exactly what you were alluding to in your previous post.

[Reds r coming up the hill]

Ok so here we go.........collusion by the Irish security forces is ok as it wasn't "on the same scale"..........that's getting very close to sweeping it under the carpet. I couldn't care less what the scale was. It happened and it matters a huge amount to the victims. I guess we should also turn a blind eye to supplying guns to the IRA etc.

It's all wrong and people died because of it. Each life was precious if you were involved.

And leave out the whataboutery shite...........that's again trying to belittle the lives of the people who were killed. It wasn't one-sided nor will anyone be brought back to life debating who did what.

The poster said, and I'm paraphrasing here... can't believe the brits haven't got more blow back from the recent findings of a report that there was collusion by RUC  ....
You jumped in and had a right go,  with loads of whataboutery shite ... what about the Irish police collusion, whatabout the US collusion,  man you are a little precious with that whataboutery shite.

Agree with looking forward, but you must learn from the past and that's not by ignoring it. I'm sure for your anecdote of that woman's story there are those other victims familes and mothers  who are disgusted at collusion by RUC, and I'm fairly sure they'd be looking for someone to be held to account.
By your standards ther'd be no benefit to a  Hillsborough Inquiry, and the results of it shouldn't be bothered with either, let's just move on ..?
I think you are bending over backwards to excuse murder, that's really shocking if I am honest.

[Daniel Cabbaggio]

And leave out the whataboutery shite...........

Look closer to your own fucking posts then

[fowlermagic]

More of a comment about the state of affairs in the country as just about six years ago politicians were saying the house prices are at their true value which was pretty much 50% of their value at the height of the Celtic Tiger years. Of course today we are nearly back at those silly over inflated prices again and the same cowboys have let it happen. Honestly we are the sheep that continue to be led down the same path by the clowns we put in charge.

On a similar vein i saw an article where the children's hospital expected budget went from 900m to 1.4 billion in its first two years and now four years later will easily surpass 2 billion. Those clowns in charge don't even want to project the final costs as im betting it will be closer to 3 billion

[DangerScouse]

Big day today up North!!

[Macphisto80]

Shinners are cleaning up.

[BobOnATank]

Shinners are cleaning up.

In 98 it was obvious to me that, us Irish patriots (I hate the term nationalist and nationalists, but some are)  when the GFA was defined and that it would require serious leadership from the unionist (mostly british patriots, but some are nationalists) coming to terms with an equal society. Unfortunately the dupers took advantage of the UUP moderate position and have done so since then, but at least even though we throw words like shinners around, it not the same as before, we don't vote shinner for "Tiocfaidh ár lá" solely, yes that, but that is only because they are a serious political party.

[FlashGordon]

In 98 it was obvious to me that, us Irish patriots (I hate the term nationalist and nationalists, but some are)  when the GFA was defined and that it would require serious leadership from the unionist (mostly british patriots, but some are nationalists) coming to terms with an equal society. Unfortunately the dupers took advantage of the UUP moderate position and have done so since then, but at least even though we throw words like shinners around, it not the same as before, we don't vote shinner for "Tiocfaidh ár lá" solely, yes that, but that is only because they are a serious political party.

Well said. Delighted for our brothers up north.

[Macphisto80]

I just say it, or rather, type it, because it's more convenient for my space bar, which I really have to mash down to get working.

I think Colum Eastwood is correct in saying that when Jeffrey Donaldson said that a Nationalist couldn't be first minister, it backfired spectacularly in his face. It was a good reason for me to vote.

[thejbs]

I’m a lefty green voter, but I do appreciate how much Sinn Fein have evolved. People like my parents (an English mum, no less) now vote for them. Brexit has been a big factor in this election. Unionists who don’t oppose the protocol are giving alliance a 40% boost.

[oldfordie]

I’m a lefty green voter, but I do appreciate how much Sinn Fein have evolved. People like my parents (an English mum, no less) now vote for them. Brexit has been a big factor in this election. Unionists who don’t oppose the protocol are giving alliance a 40% boost.

I know many are against Brexit but I hope they go into a bit more detail as am sure the Torys will use more spin and lies to attack anyone who says this is about Brexit.
The impression am getting is they understand the consequences of Brexit. how all countries need a border so if there has to be a border then let it be in the Irish sea. the DUP are either too thick to understand the consequences of the vote to leave on Ireland or they lied to their supporters +power corrupts as well.

[Libertine]

Fantastic to see Alliance doing so well - a non-sectarian, progressive and diverse party (even if the sectarian parties are still getting >80% of the vote).

Also, multi-seat STV really is the best electoral system. Not just for how interesting the counts are for political geeks, but for producing a broadly proportional result while keeping constituency links. Comparing to FPTP while browsing the results from England yesterday - shocking to see some councils with >90% of seats from a single party (even when it's Labour or the Lib Dems). Such a poor and undemocratic system.

[SouthDerryLaggo]

Historic stuff this

[Jiminy Cricket]

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-61355419

NI election results 2022: Sinn Féin wins most seats in historic election

Sinn Féin will be the largest party in the Northern Ireland Assembly for the first time, pushing the Democratic Unionist Party (DUP) into second place.

Sinn Féin has 27 seats, compared to the Democratic Unionist Party's (DUP) 24.

The result means Michelle O'Neill will be entitled to become first minister, an unprecedented move for a nationalist.

A unionist party has had the most seats at Stormont since Northern Ireland was formed in 1921.

The most seats the DUP can return with is 25.

Earlier, Ms O'Neill described the results as a "defining moment for our politics and for our people".

"Today ushers in a new era which I believe presents us all with an opportunity to reimagine relationships in this society on the basis of fairness, on the basis of equality and on the basis of social justice," she continued.

The Alliance Party has returned 17 MLAs, more than doubling its previous number in 2017.

So far, the Ulster Unionist Party (UUP) has returned nine MLAs and the SDLP seven.

Although Sinn Féin can now nominate a first minister, they cannot take up the office unless the DUP, the biggest party from the unionist bloc, agrees to nominate a deputy first minister.

Its leader Sir Jeffrey Donaldson has not yet made a decision on whether the party will do that.

On Saturday, the DUP leader said his party would respect the result of the election, however there needed to be changes made to the Northern Ireland Protocol.

The protocol is an element of the UK's Brexit agreement with the European Union which keeps Northern Ireland aligned with the EU single market for goods.

Some unionists have said the protocol created a trade border between Northern Ireland and Great Britain.

[TSC]

Cat among the pigeons time for the DUP Brexit enablers in a remain voting region.  Who’d have thought?  Looking at the results it’s clear that a lot of support has drifted to the ‘centrist’ Alliance party while SF has consolidated the nationalist vote.

[thejbs]

Can see the DUP torpedoing stormont so there’s no executive and no Sinn Fein first minister. That would be incredibly damaging to NI but, sadly, will win them votes. 

[Libertine]

Think the media coverage of this is a bit overblown. Yes, it's highly noteworthy that a nationalist party wins an election (most first pref votes and seats) in NI. But the changes are largely symbolic:

 - SF vote was only marginally up on 2017, 1% more votes and same number of seats
 - they won because the DUP shipped a lot of votes to TUV (who hilariously wasted all of those by gaining a total of 0 extra seats)
 - there is no real difference in terms of power between First Minister and the deputy
 - no indication that there is any increased support for unification

The big winners were Alliance, more than doubling their seats and consolidating the middle ground by taking votes of the SDLP, UUP and Greens.

[Red-Soldier]

Can see the DUP torpedoing stormont so there’s no executive and no Sinn Fein first minister. That would be incredibly damaging to NI but, sadly, will win them votes.

Yep.  Can't see a NI government any time soon.

[TSC]

Can see the DUP torpedoing stormont so there’s no executive and no Sinn Fein first minister. That would be incredibly damaging to NI but, sadly, will win them votes. 

DUP made it clear that was its stance throughout the election, so any voters attracted by that will have moved to the DUP.  Conversely the electorate opposing such a strategy have moved to other parties.  So don’t think there is any more movement on that front.

Notwithstanding the fact the time for gaining votes was pre election.  It’s now over.

[TSC]

Think the media coverage of this is a bit overblown. Yes, it's highly noteworthy that a nationalist party wins an election (most first pref votes and seats) in NI. But the changes are largely symbolic:

 - SF vote was only marginally up on 2017, 1% more votes and same number of seats
 - they won because the DUP shipped a lot of votes to TUV (who hilariously wasted all of those by gaining a total of 0 extra seats)
 - there is no real difference in terms of power between First Minister and the deputy
 - no indication that there is any increased support for unification

The big winners were Alliance, more than doubling their seats and consolidating the middle ground by taking votes of the SDLP, UUP and Greens.

Sadly with the DUP symbolism is everything, hence why it will be unlikely to accept Sinn Fein holding the title of ‘first minister’.

While the above is correct regarding the Sinn Fein increase, the gap between them and the DUP was sizeable (29% v 21%).

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election/2022/northern-ireland/results

[liverbnz]

DUP made it clear that was its stance throughout the election, so any voters attracted by that will have moved to the DUP.  Conversely the electorate opposing such a strategy have moved to other parties.  So don’t think there is any more movement on that front.

Notwithstanding the fact the time for gaining votes was pre election.  It’s now over.

Except of course there could be another election in 6 months.

But you are right, their torpedoing of Stormont didn’t work this time around so I’d imagine it will only annoy the electorate further if they do it again, which it seems they will.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

Can see the DUP torpedoing stormont so there’s no executive and no Sinn Fein first minister. That would be incredibly damaging to NI but, sadly, will win them votes.

I can't stand the bastards,they should've stayed the fuck out of Westminster.

c*nts.

[SouthDerryLaggo]

Except of course there could be another election in 6 months.

But you are right, their torpedoing of Stormont didn’t work this time around so I’d imagine it will only annoy the electorate further if they do it again, which it seems they will.

I fear what will happen here is that there will be another election. The dup will campaign on the basis of “look what happened when you split the Unionist vote….. Sinn Fein IRA got the most seats.” Blah blah. Jim allister will likely reign it in causing the DUP vote to go back up to where it was.
I also heard this week that first and deputy first minister have to be a nationalist and a unionist. So even if alliance could beat the DUP in an election they could t hold the title of deputy first minister. They would have to declare as unionist to be able to take the position. This is so fucking broken.

[Macphisto80]

If Brexit proved anything, it proved that partition on the island of Ireland doesn't work. Well, seems like democracy within the partion is broken too. Could anyone imagine what would be said in the international press if an opossition party was allowed to bring down government on the predication of what amounts to nothing but pure bigotry. It wont be worded like that, but that's exactly what it is.

I wrote this without a disclaimer stating that all of it only applys if the DUP decide to throw the toys out of their pram. But, you know, its the DUP, so chances of that are likely.

[SouthDerryLaggo]

Wee sir Jeffrey says no
https://twitter.com/irish_news/status/1523639301170671616?s=20&t=BrFc-EdU0ZDd2CFoxmixiw
Round and round we fucking go

[Jiminy Cricket]

Wee sir Jeffrey says no
https://twitter.com/irish_news/status/1523639301170671616?s=20&t=BrFc-EdU0ZDd2CFoxmixiw
Round and round we fucking go

Does anyone know what's the process for recalling MLAs? My searches are not turning up anything.

[TSC]

Except of course there could be another election in 6 months.

But you are right, their torpedoing of Stormont didn’t work this time around so I’d imagine it will only annoy the electorate further if they do it again, which it seems they will.

Let’s have elections until the DUP win one?  Yep can’t see the DUP putting the protocol (which it enabled) ahead of cost of living, health, education, etc, playing out well with the electorate.

[Macphisto80]

They're shitting themselves and doing the only thing they can do.

[reddebs]

I'm not sure if this is the right thread for this as it's UK stuff mingled with Brexit stuff intertwined with Ireland.

The recent results got me thinking about whether we, me and Paul, or anybody really, could become EU citizens again by moving to Northern Ireland.

We looked into Paul's paternal ancestry for Irish decent to apply for Republic of Ireland passports after covid prevented us moving to France before the Brexit deadline, turns out they're Northern Irish.

If we end up with a United Ireland that's a member of the EU then that would work, presumably?

[TSC]

I'm not sure if this is the right thread for this as it's UK stuff mingled with Brexit stuff intertwined with Ireland.

The recent results got me thinking about whether we, me and Paul, or anybody really, could become EU citizens again by moving to Northern Ireland.

We looked into Paul's paternal ancestry for Irish decent to apply for Republic of Ireland passports after covid prevented us moving to France before the Brexit deadline, turns out they're Northern Irish.

If we end up with a United Ireland that's a member of the EU then that would work, presumably?

Think it’s possible if one of the grandparents was Irish (north or south)?  Not 100% on that.

Anyway join the queue

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/brexit-more-irish-passports-than-uk-passports-issued-in-northern-ireland-for-first-time/ar-AAWRY2m

[tinner777]

It’s a e1000 to apply for citizenship, if you’re successful you can apply for the passport

[Macphisto80]

I'm not sure if this is the right thread for this as it's UK stuff mingled with Brexit stuff intertwined with Ireland.

The recent results got me thinking about whether we, me and Paul, or anybody really, could become EU citizens again by moving to Northern Ireland.

We looked into Paul's paternal ancestry for Irish decent to apply for Republic of Ireland passports after covid prevented us moving to France before the Brexit deadline, turns out they're Northern Irish.

If we end up with a United Ireland that's a member of the EU then that would work, presumably?

Not sure what the law is for applying for an Irish passport on a lineage basis, but Northern Irish or not, the Good Friday agreement mandates that it doesn't matter what part of the island you were born or come from: you are still entitled to an Irish passport. If you move to the north and become a citizen, then I'd assume you can still get one that way too. Not sure how long that would take, though.

[reddebs]

Thanks for the info guys 👍

[SouthDerryLaggo]

Emma Little Pengelly is back. Fucking hell you couldn't write it. Jeffs election posters are still up

[thejbs]

So, the majority of parties are for the protocol.
The majority of people are anti Brexit.
The majority want stormont up and running.
And Northern Ireland returned SF as the largest party.

And they have the gall to call themselves the DEMOCRATIC unionist party.