Topic: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"

[ShakaHislop]

To be fair I think lucas is spot on. I think British politics needs shaking up, it's full of stuffy old men from the same background, doing and thinking the same thing. It's like a bloody gentleman's club. Her idea is wild and radical, but maybe this will ruffle a few feathers. It's not too say her idea can't be opened up to include men eventually. But maybe getting this off the ground needs new tact, a group of strong women forming a strong coherent plan is better than watching corbyn be a wet lettuce in a group trying to form a coup but no idea how to lead it, or knowing what he really wants to achieve. As for the other men within politics at the moment I can't think of many who would be good leading this country against Brexit. She may shoot herself in the foot, it might not work but by god I'm behind her for actually trying. There's very few people in politics I actually have faith or believe in anymore, but I've met lucas a few times, and I don't think she's crazy, I think she's strong and calculated at just the right times. I don't believe she'll allow men to shout her down, she'll give as good as she gets. I for one would love to see it work. At the very least it'll get people talking. I can't wait for the sexist male pigs to come out the woodwork and say a group of women running the country bless them, or who do they think they are?

Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson, corbyn or lucas? Real tough choice there......

Lucas' comments are sexist.

[ShakaHislop]

Tough day in here for those proposing the greens as the 'sensible' choice for the next election, that idea proposed by Lucas is as much a turn off and just plain bad as near enough anything else suggested in the past 3 years.

Here's an idea to get past the divisive identity driven politics of Brexit, lets put together an all female cabinet.

Embarrassing stuff.

Every chance the Lib Dems or the Greens get to step up and show they *might* be a reasonable alternative their expose themselves as either being closeted tories for the former or woefully out of their depth for the latter.

Yeah, boo hiss "identity politics"

[filopastry]

Owen Jones is the king of identity politics on twitter surely!

(For what its worth I do think the comments from Lucas were pretty stupid)

[Cpt_Reina]

Never voted for them before, so I can't pretend to speak for them. But if one 'policy' being announced, and then catching some flak in the media and then requiring some clarification/tweaking afterwards as plain bad then I wonder what you must make of Corbyn's policies. At one point, when they were still into parliamentary politics, there were two or three of those a week.

I mean we seem to have arrived at the point whereby the environmental party in our political landscape seems to be heavily lobbying and invested in remaining inside the EU who are doing relatively little to combat climate change as Europe literally burns up around it. And also well up for inviting the pro fracking Tories inside to enable it.

But at least they're not confused about their policies as you say.

[filopastry]

I mean we seem to have arrived at the point whereby the environmental party in our political landscape seems to be heavily lobbying and invested in remaining inside the EU who are doing relatively little to combat climate change as Europe literally burns up around it. And also well up for inviting the pro fracking Tories inside to enable it.

But at least they're not confused about their policies as you say.

I'm not sure the premise that the EU is doing relatively little to combat climate change really stands up when we live in a world where climate change is clearly a global problem and needs global solutions and the west's largest polluter has leadership that happily ignores the problem. But ok if you think the EU is the main problem so be it.

Whether you think the EU is doing enough or not (and let's be honest which countries really are) surely UK Greens would believe they would have greater influence on decarbonising the EU economy from within rather than by leaving.

If you want to find any kind of solution to climate change it will need greater international cooperation and enforcement not a race to the bottom pursuing some kind of populist nationalist agenda which will actively make intl cooperation much less likely.

[Zeb]

In her public letter to try and establish the broadest possible common ground to prevent 'no deal', Lucas didn't mention Iraq either so I think we can safely say she's now a Blairite.

[Cpt_Reina]

I'm not sure the premise that the EU is doing relatively little to combat climate change really stands up when we live in a world where climate change is clearly a global problem and needs global solutions and the west's largest polluter has leadership that happily ignores the problem. But ok if you think the EU is the main problem so be it.

Whether you think the EU is doing enough or not (and let's be honest which countries really are) surely UK Greens would believe they would have greater influence on decarbonising the EU economy from within rather than by leaving.

If you want to find any kind of solution to climate change it will need greater international cooperation and enforcement not a race to the bottom pursuing some kind of populist nationalist agenda which will actively make intl cooperation much less likely.

All well and good but if the appetite to make meaningful change at the expense of enriching its member states isn't there from the EU (as certainly appears to be the case) then what use is the membership to the green party?

[oldfordie]

EU climate action

Preventing dangerous climate change is a key priority for the European Union. Europe is working hard to cut its greenhouse gas emissions substantially while encouraging other nations and regions to do likewise.

Key EU targets for 2020
20% cut in greenhouse gas emissions compared with 1990
20% of total energy consumption from renewable energy
20% increase in energy efficiency

Regulation
The EU's emissions trading system is the key tool for reducing greenhouse gas emissions from industry at the lowest cost.
EU countries are required to support renewable energy sources such as wind, solar and biomass to reach the green energy targets.
EU countries have to reduce the energy use of their buildings and industries are required to improve the energy efficiency of a wide array of equipment and household appliances.
Car manufacturers have to reduce CO2 emissions from new cars and vans.
Key EU targets for 2030
At least 40% cut in greenhouse gas emissions compared with 1990
At least 32% of total energy consumption from renewable energy
At least 32.5% increase in energy efficiency

Long-term goal
By 2050, the EU aims to cut its emissions substantially – by 80-95% compared to 1990 levels as part of the efforts required by developed countries as a group.

Turning Europe into a highly energy efficient and low-carbon economy will also boost the economy, create jobs and strengthen Europe's competitiveness.

Action towards climate targets

The EU is pursuing its climate targets through a combination of financial support and regulation.

Financial support

At least 20% of the EU's budget for 2014 to 2020 - as much as €180 billion - should be spent on protecting the climate. This is on top of funding from individual EU countries.
The EU finances low-carbon energy demonstration projects from the sale of emission certificates. This includes technologies to trap carbon dioxide from power stations and other industrial installations and store it in the ground, so-called carbon capture and storage (CCS)
https://ec.europa.eu/clima/citizens/eu_en

[classycarra]

I mean we seem to have arrived at the point whereby the environmental party in our political landscape seems to be heavily lobbying and invested in remaining inside the EU who are doing relatively little to combat climate change as Europe literally burns up around it. And also well up for inviting the pro fracking Tories inside to enable it.

So you're saying you wouldn't mind a brexit (no deal or otherwise), because the EU aren't doing enough for you in combating climate change?

[filopastry]

All well and good but if the appetite to make meaningful change at the expense of enriching its member states isn't there from the EU (as certainly appears to be the case) then what use is the membership to the green party?

How do you plan to combat climate change without increasing international cooperation using institutions like the EU.

The UK could leave the EU and become a zero carbon economy tomorrow and it would basically make sod all difference to the global fight against  climate change.

The more transnational institutions get weakened the less likely it is that we will ever find the level of international cooperation required to make a serious start in dealing with climate change.

[Lush is the best medicine...]

https://twitter.com/misselliemae/status/1160866049283301376?s=21

It’s hard to out-stupid Owen but Ellie mae has done so, the greens are centrists now in loony lefty land, how long until it’s ‘green tories’

[Zeb]

Owen Jones is the king of identity politics on twitter surely!

(For what its worth I do think the comments from Lucas were pretty stupid)

Amusing part to it for me is that the current general public perception of the Greens is what Labour under Corbyn could have been. Even Labour's 2016 Leavers (leaning towards Frottage's populism) generally prefer the Greens to both Corbyn's Labour and Frottage. Not sure if it damages the positive perception of Lucas (and by implication the Greens) or strengthens it when the Corbynistas get all upset with her. Certainly a fun way to demonstrate priorities right now.

[redmark]

Certainly a fun way to demonstrate priorities right now.

The problem is, you could make precisely the same argument about Lucas's intervention. 'Unite to Remain' is gathering some momentum. The talk has been about a GNU alternative to a Corbyn opposition, with advocates of the former including Lucas as one of the possible figureheads and a 'respected politician' across the house. With one clumsy initiative (and the lack of a BAME name I'm sure is genuine 'colour blindness' rather than anything sinister - but the Greens' do have a slight issue with colour blindness, having put up fewer BAME candidates in 2015 than UKIP did), all she's done is lower the chances of finding a majority for a GNU. She's right that a number of key people in current discussions are women, but ignores that people like Dominic Grieve and Oliver Letwin will be key in delivering some wavering Tory men, and Hilary Benn and (perhaps) Keir Starmer amongst others on the Labour side.

This just didn't need doing.

[naka]

Lucas' comments are sexist.

actually agree with this.
very naive from lucas

[Zeb]

This just didn't need doing.

As I said, I don't agree with the specifics, but it's interesting the instant response taken against it hasn't been in the principle of forming a government of national unity. Not sure Lucas' letter does anything different to anyone else proposing their fantasy cabinet line-up. It's not even cover for Labour's leadership because it's so amendable once the foundational principle has been conceded. 

[Sangria]

Tough day in here for those proposing the greens as the 'sensible' choice for the next election, that idea proposed by Lucas is as much a turn off and just plain bad as near enough anything else suggested in the past 3 years.

Here's an idea to get past the divisive identity driven politics of Brexit, lets put together an all female cabinet.

Embarrassing stuff.

Every chance the Lib Dems or the Greens get to step up and show they *might* be a reasonable alternative their expose themselves as either being closeted tories for the former or woefully out of their depth for the latter.

What would you call Corbyn then? Closet kipper? Or open kipper?

Fuck Brexit. Fuck the far right and all its enablers. That is all.

[redmark]

As I said, I don't agree with the specifics, but it's interesting the instant response taken against it hasn't been in the principle of forming a government of national unity. Not sure Lucas' letter does anything different to anyone else proposing their fantasy cabinet line-up. It's not even cover for Labour's leadership because it's so amendable once the foundational principle has been conceded. 

The other fantasy cabinet lineups have come from commentators like Polly Toynbee rather than actual political leaders themselves proposed as possible PMs though, haven't they?

[Zeb]

The other fantasy cabinet lineups have come from commentators like Polly Toynbee rather than actual political leaders themselves proposed as possible PMs though, haven't they?

Think it's the first time an MP has written a public letter to other, named, MPs about it, yeah.

[Skeeve]

To be fair I think lucas is spot on. I think British politics needs shaking up, it's full of stuffy old men from the same background, doing and thinking the same thing. It's like a bloody gentleman's club. Her idea is wild and radical, but maybe this will ruffle a few feathers. It's not too say her idea can't be opened up to include men eventually. But maybe getting this off the ground needs new tact, a group of strong women forming a strong coherent plan is better than watching corbyn be a wet lettuce in a group trying to form a coup but no idea how to lead it, or knowing what he really wants to achieve. As for the other men within politics at the moment I can't think of many who would be good leading this country against Brexit. She may shoot herself in the foot, it might not work but by god I'm behind her for actually trying. There's very few people in politics I actually have faith or believe in anymore, but I've met lucas a few times, and I don't think she's crazy, I think she's strong and calculated at just the right times. I don't believe she'll allow men to shout her down, she'll give as good as she gets. I for one would love to see it work. At the very least it'll get people talking. I can't wait for the sexist male pigs to come out the woodwork and say a group of women running the country bless them, or who do they think they are?

Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson, corbyn or lucas? Real tough choice there......

It needs shaking up, but her idea is flawed when you consider just how many fuckwits there are within the ranks of the female MPs, would anyone want to see the likes of Hoey, Leadsom, Dories or a return of May just because of their gender?

A bigger issue with her idea is that it allows the very sensible need of a national unity government to be sidetracked by her unnecessary addition to that plan.

[ShakaHislop]

I mean we seem to have arrived at the point whereby the environmental party in our political landscape seems to be heavily lobbying and invested in remaining inside the EU who are doing relatively little to combat climate change as Europe literally burns up around it. And also well up for inviting the pro fracking Tories inside to enable it.

But at least they're not confused about their policies as you say.

I'm glad that the Labour Party has taken the environmental baton from the Green Party and run with it.

Labour's official position was to oppose expansion, but its MPs were given a free vote.

More Labour MPs supported the government than backed their leader Jeremy Corbyn, who had opposed the expansion.

The development was supported by 119 Labour MPs, while 96 voted against the move.

Heathrow airport: MPs vote in favour of expansion

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44609898

[ShakaHislop]

Yet again, more Labour MPs voting with those Tories than against, this time on HS2.

https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/2019-07-15/division/6A3441EA-EAFA-4DF5-8E96-70D52903AE3A/HighSpeedRail(WestMidlands-Crewe)Bill?outputType=Party

Jezza couldn't even be arsed to turn up for that one, although he did make the effort to vote with the boys in blue in favour of Phase 1.

https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/2016-03-23/division/20917D65-544C-4305-99D0-686CD3A0F684/HighSpeedRail(London%E2%80%93WestMidlands)Bill?outputType=Party

[Zeb]

Ian Dunt on Sky setting out the options for MPs to take control of the timetable and so legislate: https://twitter.com/Haggis_UK/status/1160914601665581057 (twitter video)

Essentially, it's still very possible through a few routes. As said before, problem comes when MPs get to what they want to do once legislating. May didn't play hardball with the Commons with Cooper's bill and negotiating an extension as she didn't want to exit without the Withdrawal Agreement. Johnson has every incentive not to be even that accommodating.

[Team Sleep]

All well and good but if the appetite to make meaningful change at the expense of enriching its member states isn't there from the EU (as certainly appears to be the case) then what use is the membership to the green party?

Not being able to influence climate change policy is a hot new take on leaving the EU. Definitely something we could better influence from the outside as our absence gives more space to right wing populist regimes to drive climate change policy. Yup. Uh huh.

Could I interest you in leaving to save the whales and polar bears too?

[Banquo's Ghost]

There are a number of flaws in Lucas' proposal aside from simple political naivety. Not least of which, is that she has now had to go and apologise for not including BAME women.

There is an interesting counterpoint to the idea which is that the only two female prime ministers of the UK have both been amongst the very worst occupants of that position. Personally, I'd attribute that to them being Tories, but it is demonstrable that being a woman does not automatically mean you will be a good politician. Further, both were tyrannical and anti-Cabinet, rather undermining the thesis of the letter that women are better at forging consensus.

[Team Sleep]

There are a number of flaws in Lucas' proposal aside from simple political naivety. Not least of which, is that she has now had to go and apologise for not including BAME women.

I thought the point of the people she reached out to was that they were the most senior or active women advocating for Remain or People's Vote across the other parties. The onus should be on those parties to explain themselves, not Lucas.

That said, there's no denying the naivety of how an all woman list would be received, even after accounting for how the typical Corbyn outriders would respond. Just pick the best people regardless of gender and give people less reason to snipe.

[ShakaHislop]

There are a number of flaws in Lucas' proposal aside from simple political naivety. Not least of which, is that she has now had to go and apologise for not including BAME women.

There is an interesting counterpoint to the idea which is that the only two female prime ministers of the UK have both been amongst the very worst occupants of that position. Personally, I'd attribute that to them being Tories, but it is demonstrable that being a woman does not automatically mean you will be a good politician. Further, both were tyrannical and anti-Cabinet, rather undermining the thesis of the letter that women are better at forging consensus.

The last leader of a party to unite the country behind him and win a majority was a man. The coalition formed in the midst of an economic crisis was brokered by two men.

[Zeb]

[No-one agreeing about a government of national unity] does not change simply by suggesting an all-female-reboot for the idea, as Caroline Lucas, the Greens’ sole MP, has done. But it’s a clever way to keep the Green party in the headlines by emphasising some of its different credentials. Although the party is not constitutionally obliged to have joint co-leaders, it has had a run of them for close to four years, and its candidate for the London mayoralty, many of its most highly-rated MEPs, its sole member of the House of Lords (and, I’m told, its second member of the House of Lords, nominated by Theresa May in her resignation honours but not yet officially cleared by the new regime) are all women.

The idea reflects an underrated element of Lucas’ political skillset: keeping her party in the headlines through eyecatching measures – a tax on meat was one, and this was another – that reiterate the party’s key messages.

Stephen Bush

[ShakaHislop]

Stephen Bush

But it’s a clever way to keep the Green party in the headlines by emphasising some of its different credentials.

Someone tell political journalists not every move a politican makes is some 4D chess move, particularly when they're mostly thick as shit.

[Zeb]

Someone tell political journalists not every move a politican makes is some 4D chess move, particularly when they're mostly thick as shit.

Hardly 4d chess to be seen as waving more to voters and potential voters when you post a public letter to the Guardian though?

[ShakaHislop]

Hardly 4d chess to be seen as waving more to voters and potential voters when you post a public letter to the Guardian though?

Who's going to be won over by what she said? Corbynites already have their own women in their party (Thornberry, Pidcock, Rayner etc) to get behind. Everyone else bar some people who are already voting Green just view it as looney left stuff surely?

[Zeb]

Who's going to be won over by what she said? Corbynites already have their own women in their party (Thornberry, Pidcock, Rayner etc) to get behind. Everyone else bar some already Greens just view it as looney left stuff surely?

If Greens hold onto what they're currently polling then it's treble their vote share from 2017 and more clout when negotiating seat arrangements under the proposed Remain alliance. I don't see too much difference to her doing it, the act rather than the details - which are a nonsense but here we are, than, say, Swinson putting out her letter to Corbyn about a VoNC. Or even Labour MPs agreeing to be quoted by name about cross-party discussions on a government of national unity, even those who only want to say it's jolly hard but they're trying.

[Ghost Town]

Ha ha, been away so just catching up.  It would never have happened anyway, so 'keeping her party in the public eye' or not, it was a dumb thing to suggest.

[TheShanklyGates]

The so called anti-no deal parties and politicians are an absolute disgrace. Not one of them are willing to put aside their own petty agendas to stop us crashing out of the EU and with mere weeks to go until doomsday there's no common plan to stop Johnson riding roughshod over democracy and all the attention is on ludicrous bullshit like the 'suggestion' Lucas has come up with.

The 'Tory rebels', if such a thing even exists, and the Lib Dems would rather no deal than see Corbyn as Prime Minister.

Corbyn is completely unwilling to countenance any solution which doesn't involve him becoming PM and I suspect would be fine with the damage no deal will do so he can point the finger at the Tories and hope the country turns to him to save us.

The SNP would probably quite happily see it happen as it helps their real goal of Scottish independence.

Everyone has their own priorities and none of them are willing to sacrifice anything for the good of the country. We're totally, utterly and probably irretrievably fucked.

[Lush is the best medicine...]

The so called anti-no deal parties and politicians are an absolute disgrace. Not one of them are willing to put aside their own petty agendas to stop us crashing out of the EU and with mere weeks to go until doomsday there's no common plan to stop Johnson riding roughshod over democracy and all the attention is on ludicrous bullshit like the 'suggestion' Lucas has come up with.

The 'Tory rebels', if such a thing even exists, and the Lib Dems would rather no deal than see Corbyn as Prime Minister.

Corbyn is completely unwilling to countenance any solution which doesn't involve him becoming PM and I suspect would be fine with the damage no deal will do so he can point the finger at the Tories and hope the country turns to him to save us.

The SNP would probably quite happily see it happen as it helps their real goal of Scottish independence.

Everyone has their own priorities and none of them are willing to sacrifice anything for the good of the country. We're totally, utterly and probably irretrievably fucked.

one group you are missing out is labour MPs effectively binning off the front bench to form a national unity govt, only realistic hope left really

[TheShanklyGates]

one group you are missing out is labour MPs effectively binning off the front bench to form a national unity govt, only realistic hope left really

First rule of politics is being able to count and all that. There probably isn't the numbers for a national unity government anyway but there certainly isn't without the Labour front bench.

[Alan_X]

https://twitter.com/femi_sorry/status/1160824995611848704?s=21

This is what we’re fighting against.

[Brissyred]

https://twitter.com/femi_sorry/status/1160824995611848704?s=21

This is what we’re fighting against.

It was like the monty python argument sketch.

[leroy]

https://twitter.com/femi_sorry/status/1160824995611848704?s=21

This is what we’re fighting against.

A patient, patient man.

[24/7]

The so called anti-no deal parties and politicians are an absolute disgrace. Not one of them are willing to put aside their own petty agendas to stop us crashing out of the EU and with mere weeks to go until doomsday there's no common plan to stop Johnson riding roughshod over democracy and all the attention is on ludicrous bullshit like the 'suggestion' Lucas has come up with.

The 'Tory rebels', if such a thing even exists, and the Lib Dems would rather no deal than see Corbyn as Prime Minister.

Corbyn is completely unwilling to countenance any solution which doesn't involve him becoming PM and I suspect would be fine with the damage no deal will do so he can point the finger at the Tories and hope the country turns to him to save us.

The SNP would probably quite happily see it happen as it helps their real goal of Scottish independence.

Everyone has their own priorities and none of them are willing to sacrifice anything for the good of the country. We're totally, utterly and probably irretrievably fucked.

Best summary I've seen for a while. Thanks. Can I use it elsewhere please?

[Red-Soldier]

https://twitter.com/femi_sorry/status/1160824995611848704?s=21

This is what we’re fighting against.

You can't discuss with stupid.