Topic: Welcome to Liverpool Thiago Alcantara

[DelTrotter]

Hard to say because you ask whether we’d be trying to effectively replace Thiago’s skillset or offer something different. There’s basically no one in Europe who can effectively do what Thiago does as consistently and at such a high level - the younger players who might become that player just aren’t ready yet and realistically we don’t have the time at present to give them those minutes. So the alternative is you adapt what you’re asking for from your midfield and make them more carrier-heavy and transition-based with short passes into the wide players to create space.

You may well be better getting an attacking 8 and playing two 6s, with the wide players slightly deeper. This means there’s still a place for Henderson, or you go two traditional 8s with Fabinho, Keita/Henderson and one more. It sounds lazy but Bellingham is the obvious one. He’s a great carrier, hasn’t Thiago’s passing ability but is flexible enough to allow us to play several different midfield set-ups. Outside of him, if you’re looking at different profile midfielders there’s Barella, Dahoud and dare I say it, Frenkie De Jong. They’re all very famous players but it’s Thiago you’re replacing. If you’re willing to be a touch more patient or want something a bit left field, there’s Gerson at Marseille who has a lot of physical quality and is tidy, or Ridle Baku from Wolfsburg offers technical quality, endless energy and pace, but is small and not the most heavyweight (though like Thiago uses his body well for his size). He can also play right back to an equally high standard so makes sense as a utility player. If you’re willing to really give a player time, Frankfurt have a young midfielder called Ansgar Knauff who looks a future star, but I’m not sure if he’s been loaned to them by Dortmund as he definitely came out of their academy.

Maybe not a great amount of surprise in those names but you simply can’t replicate what Thiago can do, realistically speaking. You have to change the way the whole midfield is set up. I’ll save more names for the transfer window threads if it comes up, but it’s going to be a big issue if we are hoping our next-in-lines can play the volume of games expected without any injury.

My man! Always a good read. Cheers mate. Yeah if it's "we need what Thiago gives us, can you find anyone?" to the scouting team then we are in a pickle.  De Jong would be really good, it's a shame the numbers won't quite add up but if the wages and fee could come down a bit....mega massive bonus points for the Utd fan fume and if it gave Barca money to take Silva too.

[Dree]

I don’t think we need to replace Thiago’s whole skill set - Wijnaldum had similar attributes without the creativity. We just need someone to withstand pressure (someone like Kovacic?)

[Saus76]

Thiago is boss. His injury record isn't!! Hopefully it's not too serious. His fitness is imperative to our success this season.

[MonsLibpool]

I don’t think we need to replace Thiago’s whole skill set - Wijnaldum had similar attributes without the creativity. We just need someone to withstand pressure (someone like Kovacic?)

Harvey is ready to step up IMO.

[Ravishing Rick Dude]

Losing your best midfielder in the first game of the season is terrible luck ffs.

[Knight]

I don’t think we need to replace Thiago’s whole skill set - Wijnaldum had similar attributes without the creativity. We just need someone to withstand pressure (someone like Kovacic?)

Keita, Jones and Elliot are all press resistant. I’m not sure Klopp is willing to play 2 of them alongside a 6 though. The progressive passing is a real miss because no one else is anywhere close to him.

[naYoRHa2b]

I'd rather see carvalho in there. I see him as a mini coutinho really at this stage. I think his attributes are best suited to that area out of the options we have. A lack of experience will go against him I guess but that's where I think he will end up long term.

Gutted to see Thiago go off, the only midfielder yesterday out of the three that was able to cope with the intensity of Fulham.

[Nick110581]

Unfortunate injury but he was always a luxury signing.

Maybe we will dip into the market now as holding out for Bellingham only seems odd.

[Jookie]

Losing your best midfielder in the first game of the season is terrible luck ffs.

It’s a big blow. But is it really terrible luck when it’s a muscle injury for a player who rarely plays more than 2700 minutes across a season?

Thiago is a quality player but he’s not durable enough. Look at the best midfielders at the other big clubs and they regularly play +3500 minutes per season. Fabinho and Henderson do that for us as well.

With Thiago we know we are getting a quality player but one we can only really rely on for 60% of the time (c.f. De Bruyne or Bernardo Silva for example). I don’t think you can put yesterdays injury down to luck when we know that this will happen every season. I suppose to be fair the 1st came of the season and with other midfielders already being out, is bad luck. But not necessarily wholly unexpected.

We have a lot of focus on our midfield at the moment. Particularly about the quality of our 5th to 8th choice options. I’m surprised there hasn’t been more focus and emphasis on why we continue to rely on Thiago and Keita so much given their poor fitness records. They only played 4500 minutes combined last season. That’s the equivalent of just over what you’d expect from 1 of your primary midfielders. We’ve paid over 70M in transfer fees and at a conservative estimate pay a combined 16-17M in wages per year for what amounts to 1 and a bit midfielders.

That’s why for me the conversation about midfield should be more focused on why we continue to rely heavily on 2 midfielders who’s availability is sub optimal. Why we invest significant funds each season in both when we don’t get the same return in minutes as other top teams midfielders? Those funds also include the wages we need to pay to carry 8 senior midfielders rather than 6 or 7 (City have 6 or 7 at max in their squad).

Focusing on how good your 7th or 8th midfielder is seems like a red herring to me. The focus should be on why your 7th or 8th choice (or even 6th choice) needs to be of such high quality when at most other top teams they’d hardly ever get a game.

[Dree]

Keita, Jones and Elliot are all press resistant. I’m not sure Klopp is willing to play 2 of them alongside a 6 though. The progressive passing is a real miss because no one else is anywhere close to him.

Well yeah, none of those are reliable or experienced enough to be considered a first XI player. It’s such a weak link.

[killer-heels]

Losing your best midfielder in the first game of the season is terrible luck ffs.

Its not luck really, he has a history of missing a lot of games. We are always on a knife edge for our midfielders so if you really want to push the luck angle then towards last season it was pure luck they stayed fit for so long.

[amir87]

We are a bit fucked in midfield if Thiago is out for a while. Given his unique attributes we won't be able to find a replacement internally or externally.

Having so many midfielders but barely any of them being durable seems a strange way to operate.

[rocco]

Personally think we’re going to have to put Elliott in and trust he can produce , which I think he can .With Henderson as a 6 not a 8

Does  Klopp going with 4231 now ?

[Funky_Gibbons]

What is it with the obsession over 4-2-3-1 on here!! Almost every thread banging on about it.

[Jookie]

Well yeah, none of those are reliable or experienced enough to be considered a first XI player. It’s such a weak link.

Jones and Elliott will only get experience by playing games.

We could loan the out for a few seasons and buy 2 x 40M midfielders to replace them if money was no object.

Unfortunately we don’t have unlimited funds so that really isn’t an option.

General question, who are City’s 1st 4 midfield choices and what depth do they have beyond that (5th to 8th choice without converting forwards into midfielders)?

Then compare their 1st 4 midfield choices to ours. In terms of quality and availability.

City - Rodri, De Bruyne, Silva, Gundogan

Liverpool - Fabinho, Thiago, Henderson, Keita

Then compare City’s 5th to 8th choices to ours.

City - Phillips, Foden (though he played front 3 last season), Palmer, Herrera

Liverpool - Elliott, Jones, Milner, AOC

Looking at those breakdowns of midfielders what is our major issue(s)? Is it related to the 1st 4 midfield choices or the last 4?

In my opinion City have a better 1st choice 4. Arguably they have 4 better individual players than our equivalents. It’s equally arguable that they are better in only 1 or 2 comparisons. Overall though the quality is not that dissimilar in my opinion.

If you look at minutes played last season then City have a big advantage. All 4 of city’s primary midfield choices played over 3000 minutes each. We had 2 players break that 3000 minute barrier despite playing more games.

City’s 1st 4 midfielders played a combined ~14,000 minutes in 2021/22z

Liverpool’s 1st 4 midfielders players played a combined ~12,000 minutes in 2021/22.

That’s about the equivalent of 22 x 90 mins that we need to rely on our 5th to 8th choice midfielders that City don’t. Also our minutes are likely skewed by playing more games and therefore more opportunity to accumulate those 12k minutes.

Our reliance on our back up midfielders is the biggest concern. The pattern for that being the case in 2022/23 is already starting to emerge. That’s the worry for me and where we are worse than City - 1st 4 choice midfielders rather than depth.

[peachybum]

What is it with the obsession over 4-2-3-1 on here!! Almost every thread banging on about it.

Consequence of lack of investment in midfield. No top signing in that position for years. It's a stale position. And the way we set them up it's almost lack they're instructed to be uninteresting. 4231 means you only have to pick two of them!

[Jookie]

We are a bit fucked in midfield if Thiago is out for a while. Given his unique attributes we won't be able to find a replacement internally or externally.

Having so many midfielders but barely any of them being durable seems a strange way to operate.

We won a CL and PL without Thiago so it’s obviously do-able to succeed in our tactical system without him.

He’s definitely our most talented midfielder but I equally don’t see him as a unicorn player who can’t be replaced. I think the question is whether his attributes can be replaced by the current squad when he misses game time.

[Funky_Gibbons]

Consequence of lack of investment in midfield. No top signing in that position for years. It's a stale position. And the way we set them up it's almost lack they're instructed to be uninteresting. 4231 means you only have to pick two of them!

The lack of ‘investment in midfield’ is not an opinion shared by Klopp no matter how many people disagree. He’s said he’s happy with his options and he’s consistently played 4-3-3, which has worked amazingly for us for a number of seasons.

[Jookie]

Consequence of lack of investment in midfield.

Investment in what sense? Are you talking just about new player acquisitions? Holistically i see quite a lot of investment in midfield if I’m honest. Tge question is whether we’ve best utilised those funds. Over the last 2 seasons we’ve done the following:

Bought Thiago and made him highest wage earner at the club 2 summers ago.

Gave new contracts to Fabinho and Henderson to retain them.

Invested funds and game time to acquire and/or develop Elliott’s and Jones

Continually carry more designated central midfielders in our squad than others top teams. Probably at a considerable wage cost.

It doesn’t feel like a neglected area to me. Though equally it’s not been an area where we’ve bought lots of players.

[peachybum]

The lack of ‘investment in midfield’ is not an opinion shared by Klopp no matter how many people disagree. He’s said he’s happy with his options and he’s consistently played 4-3-3, which has worked amazingly for us for a number of seasons.

I totally agree. I'm just saying the clamour for 4231 wouldn't be so vociferous if we were lining up Fabinho, Bellingham and Nunes instead of Fabinho, Thiago and Henderson again.

[killer-heels]

We are a bit fucked in midfield if Thiago is out for a while. Given his unique attributes we won't be able to find a replacement internally or externally.

Having so many midfielders but barely any of them being durable seems a strange way to operate.

The only reason we have so many is because quite a few of them have injury records. There are only two players we bought with questionable injury records and that was Oxlade-Chamberlain and Thiago. Keita has kind of become an issue in our colours only.

[LuverlyRita]

Personally think we’re going to have to put Elliott in and trust he can produce , which I think he can .With Henderson as a 6 not a 8

Watching Elliot pre-season, he looks to have great vision (more so than Jones) but at the moment he isn't always executing the pass he intended. Perhaps if he plays more regularly and gets used to the movement in front of him, he will be able to produce.

[Fromola]

Consequence of lack of investment in midfield. No top signing in that position for years. It's a stale position. And the way we set them up it's almost lack they're instructed to be uninteresting. 4231 means you only have to pick two of them!

It has gone stale. However, the Thiago signing refreshed it but he's not on the pitch enough. Elliott as well refreshed it at the start of last season and then was out injured long term himself. Jones and Thiago can never seem to get a decent run going.

We knew through 20/21 though that Wijnaldum was leaving (and Thiago may have been an early replacement) but Wijnaldum still started every game that season. Those minutes were going to need replacing, ideally with one player. For the 2nd summer in a row we've sat on our hands though and kept our fingers crossed injury prone players wouldn't get injured. Tchouameni was targeted but we knew even before the CL final that was dead in the water.

We're at the point now where we need a long term Henderson replacement (Bellingham earmarked) and proper cover/rotation for Fabinho. We might get Bellingham next summer (and we might not) and Baj may become that other player as well. It doesn't help us now though. Thiago is essentially a bonus at this point if he's available.

[LuverlyRita]

The only reason we have so many is because quite a few of them have injury records. There are only two players we bought with questionable injury records and that was Oxlade-Chamberlain and Thiago. Keita has kind of become an issue in our colours only.

I have always liked The Ox. He started his career with us so well, chipped in with some great goals and he was always so thoughtful and articulate in front of the media. I even wondered if he'd eventually be captain because of the way in which he was protective of his team mates - in particular stepping in to divert awkward questions away from Coutinho when transfer speculation was being ramped up. But, as with Sturridge, there comes a time when you have to face the fact that you cannot rely on the player being fit and that perhaps his body is no longer up to playing the Klopp way. He may even be better suited to a less physical league.

[amir87]

We won a CL and PL without Thiago so it’s obviously do-able to succeed in our tactical system without him.

He’s definitely our most talented midfielder but I equally don’t see him as a unicorn player who can’t be replaced. I think the question is whether his attributes can be replaced by the current squad when he misses game time.

Of course it was but I don't think it's as likely with players we have at our disposal. Henderson and Milner are older and Gini is no longer here and all 3 were huge components of what made us successful then.

I can't see us replicating that system again so easily.

[Jookie]

Of course it was but I don't think it's as likely with players we have at our disposal. Henderson and Milner are older and Gini is no longer here and all 3 were huge components of what made us successful then.

I can't see us replicating that system again so easily.

I agree and that’s what my last sentence was alluding to.

I think we need to tweak the way we play without Thiago. I’m 100% sure Klopp’s knows this and has a plan around a Thiago-less midfield.

[JackWard33]

Credit to @joel_archie online for this:

Last season in the league with Thiago  W15 D2 L0 / 2.76PPG  (105 point pace?!)
Last season without Thiago.                 W13 D6 L2 / 2.14 PPG (81 point pace)

In the first 11 games we dropped points vs Chelsea, Brentford, City, Brighton and West Ham ... he started none of them

81 point pace is still a good team and comfortably top 4 but its not title winning 
You have to be careful with these 1 player effects on the team numbers but it backs up the eye test. We probably do need a different way of playing without him or different personnel

[Chris~]

With/without stats are the worst though. He seems to be getting credit for the Wolves win (subbed off when drawing) but nothing against him for playing in the West Ham game so it doesn't even look.weoghted for his time on the pitch. Plus I'm guessing they're not wanting to include all his time here to skew it more in his favour by being selective

[Funky_Gibbons]

I mean, I don’t need ppg stats to tell me we’re a far better team when he plays, but it’s true that we are.

[JackWard33]

With/without stats are the worst though. He seems to be getting credit for the Wolves win (subbed off when drawing) but nothing against him for playing in the West Ham game so it doesn't even look.weoghted for his time on the pitch. Plus I'm guessing they're not wanting to include all his time here to skew it more in his favour by being selective

They are and I don’t love them but the more games you have the more indicative they become because you start to filter out the affect of anomalies like the ones you’ve identified. I’d also agree with the last post that we don’t need them to know he’s our best midfielder
It’s the games we struggled him when he was absent that are the concern

[slotmachine]

This is why getting in on the Gini loan deal made so much sense. Knows the system to a tee and never gets injured. He would have slot in easily and can play the 6, controller 8 and the attacking 8. PSG would have paid at least half of his wages and he would have tied us over until the Bellingham chase next summer.

The mad thing is with Milner, OX and Keita potentially leaving we could have signed Gini permanently (He is a great athlete and never gets injured he could easily play at the top level as long as Milner) next summer and still get Bellingham with the wages saved with them 3 leaving.

I know bringing players back and is age and wages and no sell on value stc. But bringing Gini back would have been such a logical move in my opinion. The thing is as well he walks into the dressing room as a leader as well as the respect of all the other lads.

[Saus76]

This is why getting in on the Gini loan deal made so much sense. Knows the system to a tee and never gets injured. He would have slot in easily and can play the 6, controller 8 and the attacking 8. PSG would have paid at least half of his wages and he would have tied us over until the Bellingham chase next summer.

The mad thing is with Milner, OX and Keita potentially leaving we could have signed Gini permanently (He is a great athlete and never gets injured he could easily play at the top level as long as Milner) next summer and still get Bellingham with the wages saved with them 3 leaving.

I know bringing players back and is age and wages and no sell on value stc. But bringing Gini back would have been such a logical move in my opinion. The thing is as well he walks into the dressing room as a leader as well as the respect of all the other lads.

Three simple words.

Never go back.

[slotmachine]

I will give you four simple words.

Ian Rush Kenny Dalglish

[Funky_Gibbons]

Three simple words.

Never go back.

It’s like no-one remembers his last season where he basically went on strike.

[BigCDump]

It’s like no-one remembers his last season where he basically went on strike.

14 simple words. I'm sold.

[slotmachine]

It’s like no-one remembers his last season where he basically went on strike.

Is this serious? He held the midfield together for most of the season until Thiago for the last 2 months of the season was superb. Remember Hendo and Fabinho were dragged all over the place because of the injuries at the back. Fuck me what do you want Gini to do. Klopp said that season that Gini was our best midfielder and was consistent as always. We were playing that season from December onwards with CB's who were miles below the level required and that's not a knock on Kabak, Phillips and Rhys Williams they did brilliantly when you consider how difficult it is to play at CB in our system.

[Ghost Town]

Is this serious? He held the midfield together for most of the season until Thiago for the last 2 months of the season was superb. Remember Hendo and Fabinho were dragged all over the place because of the injuries at the back. Fuck me what do you want Gini to do. Klopp said that season that Gini was our best midfielder and was consistent as always. We were playing that season from December onwards with CB's who were miles below the level required and that's not a knock on Kabak, Phillips and Rhys Williams they did brilliantly when you consider how difficult it is to play at CB in our system.

Agreed. Nothing was normal that season. Everyone was playing with abnormal load and lack of familliarity. It's extremely churlish to denigrate any player in that season from hell, and totally uninstructive as well.

[Funky_Gibbons]

Is this serious? He held the midfield together for most of the season until Thiago for the last 2 months of the season was superb. Remember Hendo and Fabinho were dragged all over the place because of the injuries at the back. Fuck me what do you want Gini to do. Klopp said that season that Gini was our best midfielder and was consistent as always. We were playing that season from December onwards with CB's who were miles below the level required and that's not a knock on Kabak, Phillips and Rhys Williams they did brilliantly when you consider how difficult it is to play at CB in our system.

He was awful, look at his stats, he was outperformed in almost every department by every other midfielder.

He didn’t have an assist in something like his last three seasons.

[Ghost Town]

He was awful, look at his stats, he was outperformed in almost every department by every other midfielder.

Everything was awful that season. You can't draw any conclusions from it, not unless you are wilfully looking to trash a player

He didn’t have an assist in something like his last three seasons.

Is this a joke?

[Funky_Gibbons]

Everything was awful that season. You can't draw any conclusions from it, not unless you are wilfully looking to trash a player

Argh so because we had some injuries at centre back it prevents one of your senior central midfielders from performing? Just as well no-one else had that attitude hey, would have been a truly awful season.

Is this a joke?

I wish it was.