Author Topic: What's up with Turkey?  (Read 19378 times)

Offline BarryCrocker

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Re: What's up with Turkey?
« Reply #120 on: July 11, 2020, 07:33:00 am »
One of the most beautiful buildings I've ever been in.

Condemnation from abroad as Erdogan converts Hagia Sophia into mosque

Istanbul: Turkish President Tayyip Erdogan has declared Istanbul's Hagia Sophia a mosque with the first Muslim prayers to begin in two weeks, after a top court ruled the ancient building's conversion to a museum nearly 90 years ago was illegal.

Erdogan spoke just hours after the court ruling was published, brushing aside international warnings not to change the status of the nearly 1500-year-old monument that is revered by Christians and Muslims alike.

Turkey's top administrative court ruled to annul a 1934 decree that turned the historic Hagia Sophia into a museum.

The United States, Russia and church leaders were among those to express concern about changing the status of the UNESCO World Heritage Site, a focal point of both the Christian Byzantine and Muslim Ottoman empires and now one of the most visited monuments in Turkey.

Greece's Culture Ministry described the court decision as an "open provocation" to the civilised world, saying it would have repercussions not only on relations between the two countries, but on Turkey's ties with the European Union.

UNESCO said it regretted it was not notified ahead of time and would now review the building's status.

Erdogan has sought to shift Islam into the mainstream of Turkish politics in his 17 years at the helm. He has long floated restoring the mosque status of the sixth-century building, which was converted into a museum in the early days of the modern secular Turkish state under Mustafa Kemal Ataturk.

"With this court ruling, and with the measures we took in line with the decision, Hagia Sophia became a mosque again, after 86 years, in the way Fatih [the Ottoman Sultan Mehmet II] the conqueror of Istanbul had wanted it to be," Erdogan said in a national address.

In a telling of history at times critical of the Byzantine Empire and the modern republic's founders, Erdogan said Turkey could now leave behind "the curse of Allah, profits and angels" that Fatih said would be on anyone who converted it from a mosque.

"Like all our mosques, the doors of Hagia Sophia will be open to all, locals and foreigners, Muslims and non-Muslims," said Erdogan, who earlier on Friday signed off on the Religious Affairs Directorate managing the site.

Turkey will now convert Hagia Sophia, a 6th-century Byzantine cathedral, into a mosque.

The US State Department, which had urged Turkey to maintain the building as a museum, said in a statement it was "disappointed" by the decision but looked forward to hearing the plans "to ensure it remains accessible without impediment for all."

The association which brought the court case, the latest in a 16-year legal battle, said Hagia Sophia was the property of Sultan Mehmet II who captured the city in 1453 and turned the already 900-year-old Greek Orthodox cathedral into a mosque.

The Ottomans built minarets alongside the vast domed structure, while inside they added panels bearing the Arabic names of God, the Prophet Mohammad, and Muslim caliphs. The golden mosaics and Christian icons, obscured by the Ottomans, were uncovered again when Hagia Sophia became a museum.

In its ruling the Council of State, Turkey's top administrative court, said: "It was concluded that the settlement deed allocated it as a mosque and its use outside this character is not possible legally.

"The cabinet decision in 1934 that... defined it as a museum did not comply with laws," it said, referring to an edict signed by Ataturk.

Erdogan, a pious Muslim, threw his weight behind the campaign before local elections last year which dealt a painful blow to his ruling Islamist-rooted AK Party. Members stood and applauded in parliament on Friday when his decree was read out.

In Istanbul, hundreds of people gathered near Hagia Sophia to celebrate the ruling. "Those who built this did it to worship God as well," said Osman Sarihan, a teacher.

"Thank God today it reverted to its main purpose. Today God will be worshipped in this mosque."

By reversing one of Ataturk's most symbolic steps, which underlined the former leader's commitment to a secular republic, Erdogan has capped his own project to restore Islam in public life, said Soner Cagaptay, director of the Turkish Research Program at the Washington Institute for Near East Policy.

"Hagia Sophia is the crowning moment of Erdogan's religious revolution which has been unfolding in Turkey for over a decade," he said, pointing to greater emphasis on religion in education and across government.

The Russian Orthodox Church said it regretted that the court did not take its concerns into account and said the decision could lead to even greater divisions, the TASS news agency reported.

People wave flags and chant slogans after the evening prayers outside Istanbul's famous Hagia Sophia on after the court decision in Istanbul, Turkey.

Previously, Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew, the spiritual head of some 300 million Orthodox Christians worldwide and based in Istanbul, said converting it into a mosque would disappoint Christians and would "fracture" East and West.

Turkish groups have long campaigned for Hagia Sophia's conversion, saying it would better reflect Turkey's status as an overwhelmingly Muslim country.

Reuters

https://www.smh.com.au/world/middle-east/condemnation-from-abroad-as-erdogan-converts-hagia-sophia-into-mosque-20200711-p55b5c.html
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Offline So... Howard Phillips

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Re: What's up with Turkey?
« Reply #121 on: July 11, 2020, 08:42:28 am »
Putting aside the politics what's the difference between Sophia Hagi and Westminster Abbey?

One was Catholic, now Anglican and open to the public. One Orthodox, then Muslim, then secular and now a mosque again and open to the public.

I know Erdogan is playing to his base and it is part of his campaign to de secularise Turkey but can we in the West criticise when you look at our religious history?

Offline BarryCrocker

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Re: What's up with Turkey?
« Reply #122 on: July 11, 2020, 09:36:58 am »
Putting aside the politics what's the difference between Sophia Hagi and Westminster Abbey?

One was Catholic, now Anglican and open to the public. One Orthodox, then Muslim, then secular and now a mosque again and open to the public.

I know Erdogan is playing to his base and it is part of his campaign to de secularise Turkey but can we in the West criticise when you look at our religious history?

About 460 years.

Think you'll find Westminster Abbey changed denominations around the same time as the CoE was starting so it was natural (not necessarily right) for them to claim religious buildings as their own.

Erdogan is turning Turkey backwards.
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Re: What's up with Turkey?
« Reply #123 on: July 11, 2020, 09:38:30 am »
Itll only alienate Turkey further from the EU, and stop thousands of tourists going into Turkey out of protests at this.
Its a beautiful building, so much history. Would have been better if they just assigned a designated prayer section and kept it as a museum.
When I went I had a local tour guide talk me through the history, and how different empires are reflected in the architecture of the place over hundreds of years, its fascinating, and adds a lot to Turkey's historical appeal. Stupid decision.


Offline Indomitable_Carp

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Re: What's up with Turkey?
« Reply #124 on: July 11, 2020, 09:48:59 am »
I haven´t had the chance to go to Istanbul yet, but would definitely love to.

But it certainly wouldn´t stop me from visiting the Hagia Sophia, and in some ways it sounds nice that it would be an active place of spiritual worship again, which is what it was made for, rather then ´just´ a museum streaming with tourists. They are all worshipping the same god anyway. Nothing stopping the tours guides, who I imagine will still be leading you around, from explaining its history.

I am obviously no fan of Erdogen, and maybe he is doing this for symbolic Islamist political/dick waving purposes, but having people back praying in a place of worship after an 86-year hiatus isn´t the worst thing.

« Last Edit: July 11, 2020, 09:51:46 am by Indomitable_Carp »

Offline Classycara

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Re: What's up with Turkey?
« Reply #125 on: July 11, 2020, 10:02:53 am »
I haven´t had the chance to go to Istanbul yet, but would definitely love to.

But it certainly wouldn´t stop me from visiting the Hagia Sophia, and in some ways it sounds nice that it would be an active place of spiritual worship again, which is what it was made for, rather then ´just´ a museum streaming with tourists. They are all worshipping the same god anyway. Nothing stopping the tours guides, who I imagine will still be leading you around, from explaining its history.

I am obviously no fan of Erdogen, and maybe he is doing this for symbolic Islamist political/dick waving purposes, but having people back praying in a place of worship after an 86-year hiatus isn´t the worst thing.
Not the same supposed god

Poor old Attaturk

Offline nayia2002

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Re: What's up with Turkey?
« Reply #126 on: July 11, 2020, 10:24:56 am »
This will create even more hate/tensions between Christian and Muslim religions as if there's not enough problems in the world to go around at the moment  ::) :butt
Its a blatant racist attack by Erdoğan against the Greeks/ Greek orthodox religion  :no :wanker
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Re: What's up with Turkey?
« Reply #127 on: July 12, 2020, 06:23:52 pm »
Itll only alienate Turkey further from the EU, and stop thousands of tourists going into Turkey out of protests at this.
Its a beautiful building, so much history. Would have been better if they just assigned a designated prayer section and kept it as a museum.
When I went I had a local tour guide talk me through the history, and how different empires are reflected in the architecture of the place over hundreds of years, its fascinating, and adds a lot to Turkey's historical appeal. Stupid decision.

Yep, I agree. It's one of the places I most want to visit but on principal, I won't go while Erdoğan is there and trying to fire up religious tensions.

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Re: What's up with Turkey?
« Reply #128 on: July 12, 2020, 09:06:40 pm »
This will create even more hate/tensions between Christian and Muslim religions as if there's not enough problems in the world to go around at the moment  ::) :butt
Its a blatant racist attack by Erdoğan against the Greeks/ Greek orthodox religion  :no :wanker

You may need to read the definition of racism.

Offline Iska

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Re: What's up with Turkey?
« Reply #129 on: July 12, 2020, 09:46:57 pm »
Putting aside the politics what's the difference between Sophia Hagi and Westminster Abbey?

One was Catholic, now Anglican and open to the public. One Orthodox, then Muslim, then secular and now a mosque again and open to the public.

I know Erdogan is playing to his base and it is part of his campaign to de secularise Turkey but can we in the West criticise when you look at our religious history?
I think the answer is in your question.  It’s less about prioritising one religion over another, or giving other countries the finger, than it is about humiliating secularists domestically.  I always thought they were very proud of state secularism, but that must be symbolically dead now.

Can anyone explain the actual mechanism of the decision?  Having a court declare one of Ataturk’s flagship decisions unlawful, after 80 years, sounds absolutely bizarre to me.

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Re: What's up with Turkey?
« Reply #130 on: July 12, 2020, 10:34:24 pm »
I think the answer is in your question.  It’s less about prioritising one religion over another, or giving other countries the finger, than it is about humiliating secularists domestically.  I always thought they were very proud of state secularism, but that must be symbolically dead now.

Can anyone explain the actual mechanism of the decision?  Having a court declare one of Ataturk’s flagship decisions unlawful, after 80 years, sounds absolutely bizarre to me.

I think Erdogan is trying to diminish Ataturk's decisions. The death of the Young Turks.

Offline AndyInVA

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Re: What's up with Turkey?
« Reply #131 on: July 22, 2020, 07:12:02 pm »
I think Erdogan is trying to diminish Ataturk's decisions. The death of the Young Turks.

That is my take as well, and to the other poster, he does seem to be taking Turkey backwards, at least taking it away from turning towards the West anyway.

It is an incredible building in an amazing City. It is a bit sad that it does seem to be becoming less friendly towards the West and including Western tourists. It is hard to criticise Turkey for turning more inward and making decisions for themselves when United Kingdom and USA are doing the exact same thing with Brexit and Trump's America First.

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Re: What's up with Turkey?
« Reply #132 on: July 23, 2020, 01:59:06 pm »
That is my take as well, and to the other poster, he does seem to be taking Turkey backwards, at least taking it away from turning towards the West anyway.

It is an incredible building in an amazing City. It is a bit sad that it does seem to be becoming less friendly towards the West and including Western tourists. It is hard to criticise Turkey for turning more inward and making decisions for themselves when United Kingdom and USA are doing the exact same thing with Brexit and Trump's America First.

Good point. I think Trump, Johnson and Erdogan are cut from the same populist cloth.

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Re: What's up with Turkey?
« Reply #133 on: December 5, 2021, 04:20:32 pm »
Insane monetary policy move from Erdogan drops the lira to historic low:

www.cnbc.com/2021/11/30/turkish-lira-slides-after-erdogan-doubles-down-on-rates-policy-.html

The currency has steadily,  and now spectacularly depreciated under Erdogan's 'leadership' . If this results in his ouster great but he has a firm,  dictatorial grip on power there doesn't he.  Anyone from / in turkey here..


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Re: What's up with Turkey?
« Reply #134 on: December 5, 2021, 04:24:40 pm »
Makes for a cheap holiday of course….
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Offline Linudden

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Re: What's up with Turkey?
« Reply #135 on: May 14, 2022, 12:05:56 pm »
The aforementioned inflation has escalated dramatically this spring as Erdogan now threatens to veto Sweden and Finland joining NATO calling Scandinavian countries 'hostels for terrorists'. That's quite some lack of self-awareness considering his ties to certain movements in Syria.

Since the last post he's also trying to drop the English name of Turkey in favour of 'Türkiye' seemingly unaware that umlauts don't exist in the English language. That's also some distraction from his obsession with the printing press. Not to mention his lowering of interest rates while hyperinflation is going on.

He's also pushed through the bulding of a canal west of Istanbul, upsetting the locals. With all the economic factors at play I think his days as leader of Turkey are increasingly numbered. The leftist kemalists are quite likely to win the 2023 presidential election and be able to form a winning coalition in the parliament election at this rate.

Turkey would really benefit from a pro-western government to clean up the mess the AKP have caused for all these years.
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Re: What's up with Turkey?
« Reply #136 on: May 16, 2022, 05:10:29 pm »
The aforementioned inflation has escalated dramatically this spring as Erdogan now threatens to veto Sweden and Finland joining NATO calling Scandinavian countries 'hostels for terrorists'. That's quite some lack of self-awareness considering his ties to certain movements in Syria.

Since the last post he's also trying to drop the English name of Turkey in favour of 'Türkiye' seemingly unaware that umlauts don't exist in the English language. That's also some distraction from his obsession with the printing press. Not to mention his lowering of interest rates while hyperinflation is going on.

He's also pushed through the bulding of a canal west of Istanbul, upsetting the locals. With all the economic factors at play I think his days as leader of Turkey are increasingly numbered. The leftist kemalists are quite likely to win the 2023 presidential election and be able to form a winning coalition in the parliament election at this rate.

Turkey would really benefit from a pro-western government to clean up the mess the AKP have caused for all these years.


He won't go without a fight. Literally.

The crackdown on the 'treasonous traitors' (jailing thousands political opponents just for opposing him) will look like a picnic.

He's a dictator, as brutal and fascistic as any.
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Re: What's up with Turkey?
« Reply #137 on: May 16, 2022, 06:47:55 pm »
Erdogan just confirmed he will not vote for Sweden or Finland to join NATO under any circumstance.

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Re: What's up with Turkey?
« Reply #138 on: May 16, 2022, 06:59:58 pm »
Did they vote to sanction Turkey in the past?

Or was it because of their reluctance to deport Kurdish individuals?

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Re: What's up with Turkey?
« Reply #139 on: May 16, 2022, 07:03:26 pm »
Did they vote to sanction Turkey in the past?

Or was it because of their reluctance to deport Kurdish individuals?

Probably both. Well, in Sweden’s case anyway.

Offline Jiminy Cricket

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Re: What's up with Turkey?
« Reply #140 on: May 16, 2022, 07:34:48 pm »
Probably both. Well, in Sweden’s case anyway.
Just what's the point of Turkey's membership of NATO?
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Re: What's up with Turkey?
« Reply #141 on: May 16, 2022, 07:44:35 pm »
Just what's the point of Turkey's membership of NATO?

Unfotunately they occupy an enormously important strategic geographic position.

Offline Jiminy Cricket

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Re: What's up with Turkey?
« Reply #142 on: May 16, 2022, 08:07:20 pm »
Unfotunately they occupy an enormously important strategic geographic position.
Of course, I do appreciate this. My comment was somewhat tongue-in-cheek. But at the same time, what's the point of a member within a defensive alliance who is very much less than fully supportive of it? There are very good reasons to expand NATO amongst democratic countries, certainly Sweden, and particularly, Finland. At what point is Turkey more of a hindrance than asset?
« Last Edit: May 16, 2022, 10:27:10 pm by Jiminy Cricket »
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Offline Linudden

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Re: What's up with Turkey?
« Reply #143 on: May 16, 2022, 10:21:00 pm »
The Turkish government are basically doing a posture - everything is for sale with them lot. They're demanding some people they claim are PKK members to be deported from Sweden and Finland to them. If they're citizens in their new countries that can't happen either way, but I assume some money would appease them. Erdogan wouldn't want to take any chances with the Americans ahead of his election. The inclusion of Sweden and Finland into NATO has been a key geostrategic goal for the Americans for decades now and they will not take kindly to any objections. It's not a coincidence that Mitch McConnell of all people showed up in Stockholm yesterday. If the US political class, the CIA and western media throw their weight behind the Turkish left he could be toast.

He's definitely not got anywhere near the clout in Turkey that Putin has had in Russia. So, it's about playing strong and getting some concessions, like Sweden and Finland ceasing material support for any Kurdish movements et cetera. He's gonna get a lot of what he wants but in the end Erdogan is a realist and knows he can't fuck over the US government and have no consequences for that. I still fancy the left winning the elections because he's driven the country off a cliff economically in the past few years and the populace of Istanbul which is like 1/4 of the country will vote for the opposition in extremely high numbers.
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Offline Red-Soldier

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Re: What's up with Turkey?
« Reply #144 on: May 17, 2022, 09:44:10 am »
I've always though it ridiculous that all these groups (EU, UN, NATO) work on an all or nothing concensus.  It should be majority vote, 60/40 or 70/30 etc.

It's one of the main reasons why things are so slow / or never happen at all.

During the 1992 Earth Summit in Rio, the Saudis managed to get a single country veto - that's one of the reasons why we're still in such dire straits with biodiversity loss and climate change.

Offline Linudden

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Re: What's up with Turkey?
« Reply #145 on: May 17, 2022, 10:49:19 am »
Geostrategic decisions are always at the forefront for the US and that's why a solution will be found. There's a clear reason why Albania and Montenegro even with rather inept military capabilities were admitted to NATO and it's because of their geographical positions in combination with the relative poverty. Both would've been prime targets for a Chinese naval buildup in Europe if not securing their allegiances early. There could've been a situation where 'infrastructure' money from Beijing had led to military bases within 50 miles of Lecce and 125 miles of Bari in Southern Italy with Chinese nukes in them. Provided the political leadership would've changed of course. There was just no way a chance was going to be taken with that. Any country with minimal or no coastline is of much less importance, which is why Bosnia and Kosovo are a long way off membership yet.

It's essential to US and Western European foreign policy to cover all the bases and that's why there's no way NATO are going to miss out on having the air force potential of Gotland and the large military reserves of Finland - two reliable and financially stable long-term allies the Americans know they can trust. I'm rather neutral on the NATO question myself but from an objective standpoint it's pretty clear that the American and British governments really want Sweden and Finland in and they're the ones wielding power within that organization. No matter what Erdogan says, he'll be forced to fall in line or he's in even worse political turmoil than before. In fact, from 1989 until today NATO have gone from narrow fringes of the Baltic Sea coastline along with island of Bornholm to every single landmass not sovereign Russian territory. There's just no way Erdogan will be allowed to stand in the way of that unpunished. He's only as useful to the US government as his actions dictate.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2022, 11:15:20 am by Linudden »
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Re: What's up with Turkey?
« Reply #146 on: May 17, 2022, 06:23:54 pm »
The Turkish government are basically doing a posture - everything is for sale with them lot. They're demanding some people they claim are PKK members to be deported from Sweden and Finland to them. If they're citizens in their new countries that can't happen either way, but I assume some money would appease them. Erdogan wouldn't want to take any chances with the Americans ahead of his election. The inclusion of Sweden and Finland into NATO has been a key geostrategic goal for the Americans for decades now and they will not take kindly to any objections. It's not a coincidence that Mitch McConnell of all people showed up in Stockholm yesterday. If the US political class, the CIA and western media throw their weight behind the Turkish left he could be toast.

He's definitely not got anywhere near the clout in Turkey that Putin has had in Russia. So, it's about playing strong and getting some concessions, like Sweden and Finland ceasing material support for any Kurdish movements et cetera. He's gonna get a lot of what he wants but in the end Erdogan is a realist and knows he can't fuck over the US government and have no consequences for that. I still fancy the left winning the elections because he's driven the country off a cliff economically in the past few years and the populace of Istanbul which is like 1/4 of the country will vote for the opposition in extremely high numbers.
During the Nato airstrikes against ISIS we were in the situation where we had Nato (Turkey) providing medical aid supplying military aid, & assistance plus cash to ISIS. And after Erdogan ordered that Russian Jet shot down. Well the US thought they needed a regime change and they began planning. Final steps been the removal of all the family members of US military on bases in Turkey.
How did Putin respond to his jet been shot down and US attemts to stabilise and avoid any further escalation's... He basically snitched on the US and warned Erdogan of the Coup and probably saved his life.
When it comes to the expansion of NATO or any other military pact, sooner or later you'll get conflicting agenda's and a conflict of morals and principles. Couple that with "an attack on one, is a attack on all" mantra... You can end up been led into to a war which goes against all your own morals or principles.
How many of us would want to fight against any future Kurdistan ? or be prepared to once again sell the Kurds down the river in order to expand Nato ?
Difficult decisions to be made for Nato and I'm thinking a goat may need sacrificing and we're not talking Gavle.       

Offline Iska

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Re: What's up with Turkey?
« Reply #147 on: May 22, 2022, 08:18:15 am »
Huge Rally For Opposition’s Canan Kaftancioglu

An example here of something I really hate about the modern media on any controversial speech issues - they’ll report that someone is in trouble for saying something, but will not tell you what was actually said.  Leaves you unable to properly understand the story - is the opposition being persecuted here, or is it the side that’s in the wrong?  No way to form a view from this.

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Re: What's up with Turkey?
« Reply #148 on: May 22, 2022, 10:45:11 pm »
Huge Rally For Opposition’s Canan Kaftancioglu

An example here of something I really hate about the modern media on any controversial speech issues - they’ll report that someone is in trouble for saying something, but will not tell you what was actually said.  Leaves you unable to properly understand the story - is the opposition being persecuted here, or is it the side that’s in the wrong?  No way to form a view from this.
 

i think you can make an educated guess that it was bullshit charges and that the opposition is getting persecuted by erdogan and his islamic crew.

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Re: What's up with Turkey?
« Reply #149 on: May 22, 2022, 11:23:40 pm »
Oh yeah, I assume that to be the case … but I’d rather work that out for myself, and in any case even that one layer’s remove from the facts is bad for understanding what’s going on.  Like: were they incendiary tweets, does any criticism whatsoever lead to charges, are they factual or conspiratorial, and so on.

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Re: What's up with Turkey?
« Reply #150 on: May 31, 2022, 02:51:29 pm »
More bullshit prosecutions.

This time a left-wing philanthropist found guilty of “attempting to overthrow the government by force”. He's received a life sentence. The near-dictatorship accused him of helping to fund the 2016 protests in Istanbul against a new development on green space, protests that spread to the whole of Turkey.

His 'crime'?

He bought a picnic table and some snacks for protestors.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/apr/25/philanthropist-sentenced-to-life-in-turkey-in-travesty-trial-over-gezi-park-protests
A Tory, a worker and an immigrant are sat round a table. There's a plate of 10 biscuits in the middle. The Tory takes 9 then turns to the worker and says "that immigrant is trying to steal your biscuit"

Offline Iska

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Re: What's up with Turkey?
« Reply #151 on: June 7, 2022, 12:39:09 pm »
Huge Rally For Opposition’s Canan Kaftancioglu

An example here of something I really hate about the modern media on any controversial speech issues - they’ll report that someone is in trouble for saying something, but will not tell you what was actually said.  Leaves you unable to properly understand the story - is the opposition being persecuted here, or is it the side that’s in the wrong?  No way to form a view from this.
Prophet Muhammad row deepens India’s diplomatic woes

Another even clearer example here, not about Turkey so apologies for cluttering the thread.  Who’s in the wrong here?  Absolutely no way to tell, because they won’t report what the row is actually about.

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Re: What's up with Turkey?
« Reply #152 on: June 7, 2022, 12:54:20 pm »
Prophet Muhammad row deepens India’s diplomatic woes

Another even clearer example here, not about Turkey so apologies for cluttering the thread.  Who’s in the wrong here?  Absolutely no way to tell, because they won’t report what the row is actually about.


She simply said that (50-odd year old) Mohammad married Aisha when Aisha was 6 years old, and consummated the marriage (some allege by raping her) when she was 9.

The source of the Aisha marriage/consummation story is a text by Aisha herself (Sahih Bukhari volume 5, book 58, number 234)


https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/2012/sep/17/muhammad-aisha-truth#:~:text=Critics%20allege%20that%20Aisha%20was,when%20the%20marriage%20was%20consummated.


Because the story has been used to denigrate Mohammad, the Muslimists are really aggressive-defensive about it.

And, of course, in today' society, one cannot say anything to upset the Muslimists. They take their imaginary friend bullshit so ridiculously seriously.
A Tory, a worker and an immigrant are sat round a table. There's a plate of 10 biscuits in the middle. The Tory takes 9 then turns to the worker and says "that immigrant is trying to steal your biscuit"

Offline Jiminy Cricket

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Re: What's up with Turkey?
« Reply #153 on: June 7, 2022, 01:18:42 pm »
Prophet Muhammad row deepens India’s diplomatic woes

Another even clearer example here, not about Turkey so apologies for cluttering the thread.  Who’s in the wrong here?  Absolutely no way to tell, because they won’t report what the row is actually about.
I missed your comment there when I originally read your post. I clicked the link and read the BBC article and was similarly confused.
She simply said that (50-odd year old) Mohammad married Aisha when Aisha was 6 years old, and consummated the marriage (some allege by raping her) when she was 9.

The source of the Aisha marriage/consummation story is a text by Aisha herself (Sahih Bukhari volume 5, book 58, number 234)

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/2012/sep/17/muhammad-aisha-truth#:~:text=Critics%20allege%20that%20Aisha%20was,when%20the%20marriage%20was%20consummated.

Because the story has been used to denigrate Mohammad, the Muslimists are really aggressive-defensive about it.

And, of course, in today' society, one cannot say anything to upset the Muslimists. They take their imaginary friend bullshit so ridiculously seriously.
It is distinctly odd when the BBC will not report about what the diplomatic row revolves.
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Re: What's up with Turkey?
« Reply #154 on: June 7, 2022, 01:27:10 pm »
It is distinctly odd when the BBC will not report about what the diplomatic row revolves.


That was Iska's original point.

The BBC isn't the only media outlet to do this, either.

Anything contentious doesn't get reported in full.

I can understand one aspect of the argument - that if you report the actual contentious opinion in full, then it gives a platform to people to get their 'contentious opinion' out there into mass-publication (eg, someone makes a bitterly racist comment, it gather media attention, and that bitterly racist comment is repeated across the media).

But, all too often, the policy goes too far and merely stating facts (historical or contemporary) is hushed-up in case some overly-sensitive types (and the evidence shows just how over-sensitive Muslimists can be about their sky-fairy bollocks) take offence.

A Tory, a worker and an immigrant are sat round a table. There's a plate of 10 biscuits in the middle. The Tory takes 9 then turns to the worker and says "that immigrant is trying to steal your biscuit"

Offline Jiminy Cricket

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Re: What's up with Turkey?
« Reply #155 on: June 7, 2022, 01:55:18 pm »
That was Iska's original point.
Yeah, I know - I acknowledged in my my post that I had originally missed Iska's comment about this:
I missed your comment there when I originally read your post. I clicked the link and read the BBC article and was similarly confused.
The BBC isn't the only media outlet to do this, either.

Anything contentious doesn't get reported in full.
This probably goes right back to the fatwa on Salman Rushdie after publication of The Satanic Verses.
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Re: What's up with Turkey?
« Reply #156 on: June 7, 2022, 02:53:49 pm »
I wonder if the media ever reflect on how dangerous this practice is?  There’s no way to take a view on the story except through your own prejudices, which needn’t be particularly vile or deep-seated - most people, I reckon, are going to see that and think ’ridiculous, they’re at it again’ or ’India is so fascist’.  And so those prejudices get ingrained further.

People mostly aren’t going to research it for themselves, and even if they are it’s actually really hard to get to the facts - I did try after posting and found something backing up Nobby’s account, but it was from Geert Wilders.  I don’t want to be relying on Geert Wilders, but the BBC have actually turned him into a more useful source than they are.

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Re: What's up with Turkey?
« Reply #157 on: June 8, 2022, 12:04:20 am »
I wonder if the media ever reflect on how dangerous this practice is?  There’s no way to take a view on the story except through your own prejudices, which needn’t be particularly vile or deep-seated - most people, I reckon, are going to see that and think ’ridiculous, they’re at it again’ or ’India is so fascist’.  And so those prejudices get ingrained further.

People mostly aren’t going to research it for themselves, and even if they are it’s actually really hard to get to the facts - I did try after posting and found something backing up Nobby’s account, but it was from Geert Wilders.  I don’t want to be relying on Geert Wilders, but the BBC have actually turned him into a more useful source than they are.

As an Indian, it's obvious though, why this is a big story. All religions have some pretty questionable stories and facts that zealots like to cover up. In the Middle East and even in India, all stuff around criticizing religions is pretty heavily censored and punished.

This is also true of Hinduism, Sikhism etc. as well. For example, drawing a Hindu god or goddess naked could get you in some deep trouble despite many ancient temples having such statues.

The big story is that there has been a lot of dog-whistle anti-muslim rhetoric in Indian TV news and from the ruling party. Usually, the senior leaders don't say it themselves, they just let their minions say the quiet part out loud. I must have watched like a 100 news segment from India basically blaming all of countries problems on Muslims within the past year or so. Calls of genocide, communal violence, you name it. However, despite all that, India has maintained relatively decent relations with most Muslim nations.

India is heavily dependent on crude oil and gas imports from the middle east. Looks like the Government's lap dogs have overstepped and pissed off a bunch of countries that previously turned a blind eye. To me, all the calls for genocide etc are way worse but hopefully, this forces the Indian government to slow down its rhetoric and be more inclusive.

There are no good guys here. Religious zealots on both sides.

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Re: What's up with Turkey?
« Reply #158 on: June 8, 2022, 09:21:58 am »
As an Indian, it's obvious though, why this is a big story. All religions have some pretty questionable stories and facts that zealots like to cover up. In the Middle East and even in India, all stuff around criticizing religions is pretty heavily censored and punished.

This is also true of Hinduism, Sikhism etc. as well. For example, drawing a Hindu god or goddess naked could get you in some deep trouble despite many ancient temples having such statues.

The big story is that there has been a lot of dog-whistle anti-muslim rhetoric in Indian TV news and from the ruling party. Usually, the senior leaders don't say it themselves, they just let their minions say the quiet part out loud. I must have watched like a 100 news segment from India basically blaming all of countries problems on Muslims within the past year or so. Calls of genocide, communal violence, you name it. However, despite all that, India has maintained relatively decent relations with most Muslim nations.

India is heavily dependent on crude oil and gas imports from the middle east. Looks like the Government's lap dogs have overstepped and pissed off a bunch of countries that previously turned a blind eye. To me, all the calls for genocide etc are way worse but hopefully, this forces the Indian government to slow down its rhetoric and be more inclusive.

There are no good guys here. Religious zealots on both sides.



 :thumbup


I hate how religious beliefs are somehow enshrined for special consideration.

I get that people are often perniciously brainwashed into religions from an early age (even 'soft brainwashing'), but ultimately it's a personal choice no different from people choosing a football team or political position or preferred choice of cake.

A Tory, a worker and an immigrant are sat round a table. There's a plate of 10 biscuits in the middle. The Tory takes 9 then turns to the worker and says "that immigrant is trying to steal your biscuit"