Poll

RAWK and Brexit

No Deal!
65 (8.8%)
Mays Deal!
14 (1.9%)
No Brexit!
539 (72.8%)
Don't Know
10 (1.4%)
Don't Care
15 (2%)
I don't live in the UK
97 (13.1%)

Total Members Voted: 740

Author Topic: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"  (Read 1244457 times)

Online TheShanklyGates

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Re: Brexit thread - Just cancel it dickheads.
« Reply #19760 on: March 30, 2019, 12:05:20 am »
After a brief moment of relief coupled with a dollop of schadenfreude earlier today when May's deal went down my mind turned to what happens next. I just can't get my head around this indicative votes process any more and what the Remainers in parliament are hoping to achieve by backing anything other than a second referendum or revoking article 50 on Monday. Literally any of the 'soft Brexit' options require the withdrawal agreement to be passed first because the EU have made it perfectly clear that they consider things like customs union, single market membership etc. as separate - matters for the political declaration on the future relationship and not for the legal process of the UK leaving.

The problem here though is obvious. The political declaration is non binding on either party. Even in the event that the Commons agree a majority for a customs union, which seems the most likely outcome from Wednesday's first round, there is absolutely nothing that guarantees it actually happens. Even if you then get May to agree to actually implement it, which is unlikely given that her first priority is keeping the Tory party together and if a softer Brexit ever became government policy it would cause a split, and then manage to agree it with the EU it's still just warm words and aspirations. The second the withdrawal agreement is passed we are out of the EU and completely at the mercy of the internal politics of the Tory party. May has already said she's gone as soon it passes - a political declaration modified by the May government becomes even more useless when we have different nutter in Number 10. What the fuck is the point in voting for a softer Brexit option when even it gets a majority you're still effectively voting for a 'blind Brexit'?

I've pretty much resigned myself to a referendum not happening and remain being dead because of the utter fucking morons on all sides of the house. Maybe that's just my eternal pessimism about this whole sorry state of affairs clouding my thinking but I honestly can't see a route to it getting a commons majority. Maybe I'm wrong and after May's deal being rejected yet again there will be a few more Tories who reconsider their votes on Monday. But I think that even if it did by some miracle manage to scrape a majority I'm convinced that May would ignore it and resign or call an election instead in order to try and kill it, something the leader of the 'opposition' would be only too happy to go along with.

Even now, on what was originally supposed to be 'Brexit day', we still have a Prime Minister who refuses to accept that she doesn't have the support to force her abomination through. You've got utter dickheads, including my MP, who are still voting for us to crash out with no deal. You've got MPs needing lessons on what a customs union is 3 fucking years after that god damned referendum. Even now you've still got gormless cretins like Richard Burgon grinning like a Cheshire cat as he continues to argue that a soft Brexit is possible without approving the withdrawal agreement and without holding EU elections. https://twitter.com/RichardBurgon/status/1111672950829314050

I feel so angry and helpless right now. Brexit has broken this country.
I've just wiped the sticky residue from my bellend onto the television screen. Taste it Leo. You deserve it.
I would honestly let Wijnaldum jizz in my face right now

Offline Riquende

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Re: Brexit thread - Just cancel it dickheads.
« Reply #19761 on: March 30, 2019, 12:08:15 am »
This is great for the Remainers. The raw racist, anti-semitic hatred of the Brexit janissaries.

Janissaries? Do they have spoons tucked into their headbands? Honestly...

Also, Janissaries were forcibly converted to Islam. Let's not open that can of worms.

London's streets tonight have been a precursor to Brexit Britain. The worst of us, free to unleash their bile.



An actual human being has taken valuable time out of their life to create that sign. Time that could have been spent laughing with children, or picking daisies, or taking cyanide. Any one of a number of more pleasant things.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2019, 12:11:20 am by Riquende »
Oh it comes to Divock Origi... he's won the European Cup for Liverpool! The man who cut down Barcelona has taken Tottenham down in Madrid! And it's dreamland worrying times for Liverpool Football Club. Shame really.

Offline Zeb

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Re: Brexit thread - Just cancel it dickheads.
« Reply #19762 on: March 30, 2019, 12:12:22 am »
^isn't that the defrocked priest who kept getting arrested for trying to disrupt sporting events?
"And the voices of the standing Kop still whispering in the wind will salute the wee Scots redman and he will still walk on.
And your money will have bought you nothing."

Offline Riquende

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Re: Brexit thread - Just cancel it dickheads.
« Reply #19763 on: March 30, 2019, 12:18:36 am »
A thought just struck me. Pro-Trump evangelicals and apparently now pro-Brexit.. um... twats... are very quick to invoke the support of the almighty in their utterings, but apparently the 21st century Christ/God axis is no longer bothering with the humble woodworker schtick and is sending messages these days exclusively through philandering billionaires and racist investment bankers.

That seems fairly off-message for Jesus, it has to be said.
Oh it comes to Divock Origi... he's won the European Cup for Liverpool! The man who cut down Barcelona has taken Tottenham down in Madrid! And it's dreamland worrying times for Liverpool Football Club. Shame really.

Offline Not that Gareth

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Re: Brexit thread - Just cancel it dickheads.
« Reply #19764 on: March 30, 2019, 12:21:21 am »
Janissaries? Do they have spoons tucked into their headbands? Honestly...

Also, Janissaries were forcibly converted to Islam. Let's not open that can of worms.

London's streets tonight have been a precursor to Brexit Britain. The worst of us, free to unleash their bile.



An actual human being has taken valuable time out of their life to create that sign. Time that could have been spent laughing with children, or picking daisies, or taking cyanide. Any one of a number of more pleasant things.
That is one conflicted image! He appears to be part paddys day parade, part Jewish,  part trans and part evangelical

Offline lamad

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Re: Brexit thread - Just cancel it dickheads.
« Reply #19765 on: March 30, 2019, 12:21:41 am »
...Brexit has broken this country.
Some British vox pop on German tv earlier today, before the vote, and a guy said the usual 'we voted for Brexit, we need to get this done'. And then he says, we need to get this done because then we can all come together again and the country will be whole again. And I was thinking, no honey, that's not how this works. He sounded so naive and clueless... Regardless of how this will end, your country and its people will stay torn apart for many years, in a really not good way. Makes me sad.

Offline coolbyrne

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Re: Brexit thread - Just cancel it dickheads.
« Reply #19766 on: March 30, 2019, 12:23:14 am »
Unless there's agreement to stop Brexit altogether then, yeah, the EU are in charge and we have to meet their demands. If no agreement is found in Parliament before the 12th April then we leave the EU with only whatever provisions they're willing to grant unilaterally. They have already stated that the minimum requirement to open further talks if that happens will be agreeing to what is in front of us now.

Thanks to those who answered. Wow. I'm just... this is just the most fucked up useless thing ever. (says Captain Obvious)
Oh, these sour times.

No one admires resilience when you were just plain wrong all along - that's just twattishness.

Online TheShanklyGates

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Re: Brexit thread - Just cancel it dickheads.
« Reply #19767 on: March 30, 2019, 12:23:40 am »
Some British vox pop on German tv earlier today, before the vote, and a guy said the usual 'we voted for Brexit, we need to get this done'. And then he says, we need to get this done because then we can all come together again and the country will be whole again. And I was thinking, no honey, that's not how this works. He sounded so naive and clueless... Regardless of how this will end, your country and its people will stay torn apart for many years, in a really not good way. Makes me sad.

Yep. I'm effectively going to be disenfranchised for the rest of my life unless Brexit is stopped. I'm not voting for any party that enabled it and in our two party system that rules out any chance of my vote ever counting.

I remember back to the summer of 2012 when we held the Olympics and how proud I felt of my country. It wasn't perfect, sure, but I felt that at a fundamental level Britain was a largely open, decent, tolerant, welcoming nation. There were divisions as there are in any society, political and otherwise, but I never had the feeling they were irreconcilable. Brexit shattered that illusion for me. It's all so desperately sad.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2019, 12:32:28 am by TheShanklyGates »
I've just wiped the sticky residue from my bellend onto the television screen. Taste it Leo. You deserve it.
I would honestly let Wijnaldum jizz in my face right now

Offline Skeeve

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Re: Brexit thread - Just cancel it dickheads.
« Reply #19768 on: March 30, 2019, 12:28:57 am »
Goes back to my point earlier, can you trust the electorate now? Its a huge risk, I never thought the Tory's would loose their majority in the last GE, it was completely unpredictable.

If they didn't see sense then at least we get the car crash out of the way in one go, you just know once we vote for any kind of brexit, it will just drag things on for years as each subsequent tory government will look to chip away at it even more, while simultaneously blaming the EU for all the problems this brexit idiocy has caused.


Offline drmick

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Re: Brexit thread - Just cancel it dickheads.
« Reply #19769 on: March 30, 2019, 12:39:52 am »
To be honest, before all this stuff started the whole Europe thing would have been of no importance at all to the DUP. It's not like the rights and wrongs of the Single Market got any mileage in their conferences and manifestos.

I think the DUP supported Brexit cos (a) their fellow travelers at the reactionary end of the Tory party supported it and (b) the Shinners and Dublin opposed it.
Make no mistake, if SF had supported Brexit, the DUP would have been Remainers.

Now I think they might be desperate for all this nonsense to end and get back to their normal version of bigotry and intransigence and most people on The Mainland ignoring them. Cos they now know that May's likely successors like Johnson and Rees-Mogg would sell them out in a nanosecond if it meant getting into no. 10.

I've said this here before I think, but nothing practical about the implications of Brexit would work out well for the DUP. Sure, there may have been a slight right-wing, conservative values allegiance. But to this day, I am convinced that massive amounts of monies were put through DUP accounts to take an official Brexit stance.

The DUP have proved that they only need a few months to mobilise their electorate. So if they commit a major faux pas, as long as it is more than 6 months before an election they will be ok.

Offline Mag Hull

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Re: Brexit thread - Just cancel it dickheads.
« Reply #19770 on: March 30, 2019, 12:42:38 am »
I apologize in advance if the answers seem obvious, but I'm having a hard time following all this. Without getting into the Party/politician discussion (which confuses me quite a bit as a Canadian), I just have a few basic questions:

-So people voted to leave the EU, but the politicians in charge had no real plan if that happened? I mean, this talk of "soft" and "hard" Brexit seems to indicate that even the Leavers couldn't agree.

-Now they're voting on a bunch of different options, including a 2nd referendum? And none of those passed a majority vote, so nothing was accomplished?

-What ultimately happens if, come April 12th, no agreement is made? Can the EU just say, "Enough. Goodbye."?

Coolbyrne - here goes  :-\

Decent overview:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/nov/16/brexit-paranoid-fantasy-fintan-otoole

The background to Brexit has always been the problem with reconciling one nation Tories with the EU, which has ultimately been the graveyard of every Tory Leader. Cameronís vanity project was to offer a referendum on membership of the EU to countermand this and due to the fallout from 2008 and his Austerity project, gave the floor to right wing extremists who with their usual smoke and mirrors, made this about immigration and focussed on the disenfranchised to exploit a protest vote.

With Eton related hubris he assumed the deal was in the bag until it wasnít, and then did a swerve worthy of Pontius Pilate by resigning. Fallout was that no plans were in place, with the vote itself being a simple Yes or No meaning the nuances of our relationship with Europe were massively understated. Gobshites on the right immediately swept in to interpret the sanctified ďwill of the peopleĒ and have subsequently caused May to play Russian Roulette with a fully loaded gun, in terms of the red lines n general intransigence.

Despite the fact that exiting the EU will have a catastrophic fallout, May has put the unity of the Conservatives above all which is why her vote has been rejected because yer canít fool all of the people all of the time. The EU do not want the UK to leave in the knowledge that this realisation/demographic changes mean that a new referendum would probably (ref Ipsos Mori) lead to remain.

What youíve got now is a situation where politicians are finally cottoning onto the real impact and indeed Realpolitik, and are looking to soften Brexit completely; the indicative votes suggest the way forward lies somewhere between a soft Brexit and/or a new referendum based upon existing options identified. Todayís vote make this more rather than less likely as Parliament has overwhelmingly voted to take no deal off the table.

Errr thatís it (I think)
« Last Edit: March 30, 2019, 02:00:13 am by Mag Hull »
Get your fucking hedge cut!!!!

Offline drmick

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Re: Brexit thread - Just cancel it dickheads.
« Reply #19771 on: March 30, 2019, 12:59:53 am »
Next Tigger/ChangeUK-er?

Surely the beginning of the end of the Conservative Party?

Offline thejbs

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Re: Brexit thread - Just cancel it dickheads.
« Reply #19772 on: March 30, 2019, 01:12:24 am »
A thought just struck me. Pro-Trump evangelicals and apparently now pro-Brexit.. um... twats... are very quick to invoke the support of the almighty in their utterings, but apparently the 21st century Christ/God axis is no longer bothering with the humble woodworker schtick and is sending messages these days exclusively through philandering billionaires and racist investment bankers.

That seems fairly off-message for Jesus, it has to be said.

Itís almost like there is no Jesus or god and people are just being dicks. 🤔

Offline oldfordie

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Re: Brexit thread - Just cancel it dickheads.
« Reply #19773 on: March 30, 2019, 01:22:36 am »
Surely the beginning of the end of the Conservative Party?
Brexit could have been the opportunity to wipe out the Tories for many years to come. Brexit could have been turned into a positive, it could have exposed the Tories for what they are,  we had a group of MPs who were willing to put their safety and careers fighting to protect the people of this country to do just that, this new party may well be wiped out at the next election and some will cheer, they will be cheering MPs who put their safety and careers on the line trying to protect them from Tory exploitation loosing their seats.  the people of this country claim they want change for the good and I believe them, it will never happen until they understand who their friends and enemies really are.
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He's four months old.

Offline Mag Hull

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Re: Brexit thread - Just cancel it dickheads.
« Reply #19774 on: March 30, 2019, 01:40:34 am »
Brexit could have been the opportunity to wipe out the Tories for many years to come. Brexit could have been turned into a positive, it could have exposed the Tories for what they are,  we had a group of MPs who were willing to put their safety and careers fighting to protect the people of this country to do just that, this new party may well be wiped out at the next election and some will cheer, they will be cheering MPs who put their safety and careers on the line trying to protect them from Tory exploitation loosing their seats.  the people of this country claim they want change for the good and I believe them, it will never happen until they understand who their friends and enemies really are.

If only we had a Labour Leader who would have seized that opportunity- Momentum have done as much damage as the Tories which is why I despise them
Get your fucking hedge cut!!!!

Offline FiSh77

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Re: Brexit thread - Just cancel it dickheads.
« Reply #19775 on: March 30, 2019, 01:42:55 am »
Janissaries? Do they have spoons tucked into their headbands? Honestly...

Also, Janissaries were forcibly converted to Islam. Let's not open that can of worms.

London's streets tonight have been a precursor to Brexit Britain. The worst of us, free to unleash their bile.



An actual human being has taken valuable time out of their life to create that sign. Time that could have been spent laughing with children, or picking daisies, or taking cyanide. Any one of a number of more pleasant things.

On his days off he makes scruffy A4 banners for Chelsea fans and those "can I have your shirt please" signs for spoilt brats

Offline lamad

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Re: Brexit thread - Just cancel it dickheads.
« Reply #19776 on: March 30, 2019, 01:44:53 am »
And in typical RAWK fashion, I'd like to ask what's YOUR opinion on this?

Because as a RAWKite, your personal view is valued far more than a media opinion, its what sets us apart from other forums. (Be prepared to be shouted down if its outrageous!).
Okay, so how do I put this? I am not British, but since approx. age 16 have been in love with all things (well, most, lol) British. I am an anglophile, I love your language, your history (good and bad), your culture - you guys. I lived and worked in London for a while back in the late 90s. I always figured in my retirement years I would spend a lot of time on the English and Scottish coasts and with exploring all the parts of the country I haven't seen yet (and that's a lot although I have been around a bit).

So apart from Remain being the logical thing (looking at economy, rights etc.) I am deeply invested in this from a personal point of view (I wrote some longer rants on here shortly after the referendum). My heart is bleeding when I see the state Britain and its people are in. At the same time I feel a bit like a lover spurned... wherever I went in the UK I was always welcomed with open arms and so much friendliness and warmth. Even with Britain always having been more Euro sceptic than other countries, I thought that the positives of what the EU represents had gotten a certain hold in British society. But then Brexit happened and it's like... the British saying, hey you Europeans, we don't want to be aligned with you anymore. We don't value what you try to do and so we don't want to be with you fullstop. I try to rationalise and of course it is not "the British". Many hold a different view, but it still hurts (may sound strange, I know).

For the past three years I have been torn between varying degrees of depression, anger and hope. Being depressed at the utter stupidity of it all, trying to accept that there will be a Brexit at one point. Mad at the way this is being handled and the Leave camp still chasing unicorns and selling it to those gullible enough. A few weeks ago I had reached a point of 'oh you lot, just leave with a no deal then, it might be the only way some learn of the effects'. But that option will hurt so so many people, especially those who already struggle, that I cannot really stick with it. So then hope kicked in (again), that by some miracle enough decision makers would see sense and stop the whole thing. Mainly by now I am hoping for a longer extension and that at the end Brexit will simply be cancelled (or it will be very very soft).

All this time I am thinking, while I may sometimes be conflicted about my feelings regarding the best way forward, I am on the outside - at the end of the day my view is rather insignificant. How must all of you feel, who have to directly deal with this every day, in your lives, with friends, family, mates, and in regards to your future.

Some of the EU people I know who have lived in the UK for many years have packed their bags: One couple, both German, with a pre-school kid, he used to work for London Transport, she worked at a bank. They are now back in Frankfurt, she already has a new job, he is a stay at home dad for now, but as an engineer will surely find work. Another couple, she is German and a professor at Oxford, he is English and in the last few years worked for a brewery (he said that there are a lot of non-British working there and he can see that industry is doomed in parts). They have two kids, dogs, a farm with horses. A few weeks ago she got a job offer in the South of Germany and she took it and they have now moved there. Both of these families would have loved to stay in the UK and surely would have done so without Brexit, but there is so much uncertainty that they grabbed these opportunities and left. Of course this is a privilege only EU citizens have and maybe those with Irish family background or similar. Most of you will have to live through it all, come what may.

So this whole thing makes me feel ragey and sad and helpless and I am Remain Remain Remain. I don't want you to leave and I never thought that this mess is where Britain and the EU would end up in the year 2016 and after...

Sorry for this rant, you can shout me down now if you like.  :wave

Offline Dr. Beaker

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Re: Brexit thread - Just cancel it dickheads.
« Reply #19777 on: March 30, 2019, 01:57:28 am »
Okay, so how do I put this? I am not British, but since approx. age 16 have been in love with all things (well, most, lol) British. I am an anglophile, I love your language, your history (good and bad), your culture - you guys. I lived and worked in London for a while back in the late 90s. I always figured in my retirement years I would spend a lot of time on the English and Scottish coasts and with exploring all the parts of the country I haven't seen yet (and that's a lot although I have been around a bit).

So apart from Remain being the logical thing (looking at economy, rights etc.) I am deeply invested in this from a personal point of view (I wrote some longer rants on here shortly after the referendum). My heart is bleeding when I see the state Britain and its people are in. At the same time I feel a bit like a lover spurned... wherever I went in the UK I was always welcomed with open arms and so much friendliness and warmth. Even with Britain always having been more Euro sceptic than other countries, I thought that the positives of what the EU represents had gotten a certain hold in British society. But then Brexit happened and it's like... the British saying, hey you Europeans, we don't want to be aligned with you anymore. We don't value what you try to do and so we don't want to be with you fullstop. I try to rationalise and of course it is not "the British". Many hold a different view, but it still hurts (may sound strange, I know).

For the past three years I have been torn between varying degrees of depression, anger and hope. Being depressed at the utter stupidity of it all, trying to accept that there will be a Brexit at one point. Mad at the way this is being handled and the Leave camp still chasing unicorns and selling it to those gullible enough. A few weeks ago I had reached a point of 'oh you lot, just leave with a no deal then, it might be the only way some learn of the effects'. But that option will hurt so so many people, especially those who already struggle, that I cannot really stick with it. So then hope kicked in (again), that by some miracle enough decision makers would see sense and stop the whole thing. Mainly by now I am hoping for a longer extension and that at the end Brexit will simply be cancelled (or it will be very very soft).

All this time I am thinking, while I may sometimes be conflicted about my feelings regarding the best way forward, I am on the outside - at the end of the day my view is rather insignificant. How must all of you feel, who have to directly deal with this every day, in your lives, with friends, family, mates, and in regards to your future.

Some of the EU people I know who have lived in the UK for many years have packed their bags: One couple, both German, with a pre-school kid, he used to work for London Transport, she worked at a bank. They are now back in Frankfurt, she already has a new job, he is a stay at home dad for now, but as an engineer will surely find work. Another couple, she is German and a professor at Oxford, he is English and in the last few years worked for a brewery (he said that there are a lot of non-British working there and he can see that industry is doomed in parts). They have two kids, dogs, a farm with horses. A few weeks ago she got a job offer in the South of Germany and she took it and they have now moved there. Both of these families would have loved to stay in the UK and surely would have done so without Brexit, but there is so much uncertainty that they grabbed these opportunities and left. Of course this is a privilege only EU citizens have and maybe those with Irish family background or similar. Most of you will have to live through it all, come what may.

So this whole thing makes me feel ragey and sad and helpless and I am Remain Remain Remain. I don't want you to leave and I never thought that this mess is where Britain and the EU would end up in the year 2016 and after...

Sorry for this rant, you can shout me down now if you like.  :wave

Fuck off.
I admit fully that my judgment was probably coloured by my tendency to be too honourable

Offline Dr. Beaker

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Re: Brexit thread - Just cancel it dickheads.
« Reply #19778 on: March 30, 2019, 01:58:11 am »
Fuck off.
That was a joke by the way.
I admit fully that my judgment was probably coloured by my tendency to be too honourable

Offline oldfordie

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Re: Brexit thread - Just cancel it dickheads.
« Reply #19779 on: March 30, 2019, 02:09:31 am »
If only we had a Labour Leader who would have seized that opportunity- Momentum have done as much damage as the Tories which is why I despise them
The Labour members were offered a choice of leaders.
The had to choose between a leader who promised to fight to expose the Tory Brexit lies, he argued we should not accept Brexit if it brings economic disaster. his argument never won over all those momentum supporters, they supported the candidate who argued we must respect the result of the referendum.
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Offline lamad

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Re: Brexit thread - Just cancel it dickheads.
« Reply #19780 on: March 30, 2019, 02:17:31 am »
That was a joke by the way.
Haha you almost had me for a teeny tiny second there, when I saw the two word reply before seeing who posted it.  ;D

Offline Dr. Beaker

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Re: Brexit thread - Just cancel it dickheads.
« Reply #19781 on: March 30, 2019, 02:19:03 am »
Grieve will have a long successful career as an MP, probably as an independent. Sadly I can't see the tiggers/chUKkas lasting 5 minutes.

May is totally deluded. No one admires resilience when you were just plain wrong all along - that's just twattishness.

A long extension to A50 is best. By that time the baby will have forgotten why it was having a tantrum.

Some right twats at parliament today, one of them tried to pick a fight with me in the tube station - all I was doing was sitting down reading a book, but he was just so fired up with his own self-importance.

Did I mention May has lost it.

It's like one of those dreams where you are walking around bollock naked. No nation should be voluntarily doing this to itself.

Just caught up on the last few pages and a few whiskies, and forgot half of what I wanted to say.
I admit fully that my judgment was probably coloured by my tendency to be too honourable

Offline oldfordie

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Re: Brexit thread - Just cancel it dickheads.
« Reply #19782 on: March 30, 2019, 02:25:32 am »
Grieve will have a long successful career as an MP, probably as an independent. Sadly I can't see the tiggers/chUKkas lasting 5 minutes.

May is totally deluded. No one admires resilience when you were just plain wrong all along - that's just twattishness.

A long extension to A50 is best. By that time the baby will have forgotten why it was having a tantrum.

Some right twats at parliament today, one of them tried to pick a fight with me in the tube station - all I was doing was sitting down reading a book, but he was just so fired up with his own self-importance.

Did I mention May has lost it.

It's like one of those dreams where you are walking around bollock naked. No nation should be voluntarily doing this to itself.

Just caught up on the last few pages and a few whiskies, and forgot half of what I wanted to say.
:) Sums up the state of the country right now.
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Re: Brexit thread - Just cancel it dickheads.
« Reply #19783 on: March 30, 2019, 02:28:09 am »
... Just caught up on the last few pages and a few whiskies, and forgot half of what I wanted to say.
And still you make more sense than most MPs and Leave voters when stone cold sober.

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Re: Brexit thread - Just cancel it dickheads.
« Reply #19784 on: March 30, 2019, 02:32:41 am »
And still you make more sense than most MPs and Leave voters when stone cold sober.
And that previous post (the long one) was brilliant and I'm sure will resonate with everyone on here - even if that last one was bollocks.
I admit fully that my judgment was probably coloured by my tendency to be too honourable

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Re: Brexit thread - Just cancel it dickheads.
« Reply #19785 on: March 30, 2019, 03:10:33 am »
Oh I've just seen that Francois on the telly going on about how his  dad won the war and how he is made of the same stuff and will repel the EU foe. FUCK OFF you charlatan pipsqueak, basking in the reflected glory of genuine heroes. If your antecedents could see the EU, and how it has prevented you being in the situation where you saw your brethren having their guts blown out and limbs blown off, they wouldn't be backing you, you pointless, pernicious, self-serving useless cretin.
I admit fully that my judgment was probably coloured by my tendency to be too honourable

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Re: Brexit thread - Just cancel it dickheads.
« Reply #19786 on: March 30, 2019, 03:31:25 am »
Okay, so how do I put this? I am not British, but since approx. age 16 have been in love with all things (well, most, lol) British. I am an anglophile, I love your language, your history (good and bad), your culture - you guys. I lived and worked in London for a while back in the late 90s. I always figured in my retirement years I would spend a lot of time on the English and Scottish coasts and with exploring all the parts of the country I haven't seen yet (and that's a lot although I have been around a bit).

So apart from Remain being the logical thing (looking at economy, rights etc.) I am deeply invested in this from a personal point of view (I wrote some longer rants on here shortly after the referendum). My heart is bleeding when I see the state Britain and its people are in. At the same time I feel a bit like a lover spurned... wherever I went in the UK I was always welcomed with open arms and so much friendliness and warmth. Even with Britain always having been more Euro sceptic than other countries, I thought that the positives of what the EU represents had gotten a certain hold in British society. But then Brexit happened and it's like... the British saying, hey you Europeans, we don't want to be aligned with you anymore. We don't value what you try to do and so we don't want to be with you fullstop. I try to rationalise and of course it is not "the British". Many hold a different view, but it still hurts (may sound strange, I know).

For the past three years I have been torn between varying degrees of depression, anger and hope. Being depressed at the utter stupidity of it all, trying to accept that there will be a Brexit at one point. Mad at the way this is being handled and the Leave camp still chasing unicorns and selling it to those gullible enough. A few weeks ago I had reached a point of 'oh you lot, just leave with a no deal then, it might be the only way some learn of the effects'. But that option will hurt so so many people, especially those who already struggle, that I cannot really stick with it. So then hope kicked in (again), that by some miracle enough decision makers would see sense and stop the whole thing. Mainly by now I am hoping for a longer extension and that at the end Brexit will simply be cancelled (or it will be very very soft).

All this time I am thinking, while I may sometimes be conflicted about my feelings regarding the best way forward, I am on the outside - at the end of the day my view is rather insignificant. How must all of you feel, who have to directly deal with this every day, in your lives, with friends, family, mates, and in regards to your future.

Some of the EU people I know who have lived in the UK for many years have packed their bags: One couple, both German, with a pre-school kid, he used to work for London Transport, she worked at a bank. They are now back in Frankfurt, she already has a new job, he is a stay at home dad for now, but as an engineer will surely find work. Another couple, she is German and a professor at Oxford, he is English and in the last few years worked for a brewery (he said that there are a lot of non-British working there and he can see that industry is doomed in parts). They have two kids, dogs, a farm with horses. A few weeks ago she got a job offer in the South of Germany and she took it and they have now moved there. Both of these families would have loved to stay in the UK and surely would have done so without Brexit, but there is so much uncertainty that they grabbed these opportunities and left. Of course this is a privilege only EU citizens have and maybe those with Irish family background or similar. Most of you will have to live through it all, come what may.

So this whole thing makes me feel ragey and sad and helpless and I am Remain Remain Remain. I don't want you to leave and I never thought that this mess is where Britain and the EU would end up in the year 2016 and after...

Sorry for this rant, you can shout me down now if you like.  :wave
Fantastic post, from the heart and definitely resonates. We love you, too. You and the rest of Europe. We belong together.

I'm one of the unlucky ones who has no Irish or European ancestary to call upon. If we leave, I'm stuck here with the fucking morons and c*nts, all of them resplendant and triumphant. I'm a well known Remainer and Europhile in my area so I will get it bad from them. They'll be likes dogs with two dicks around me.
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Re: Brexit thread - Just cancel it dickheads.
« Reply #19787 on: March 30, 2019, 03:41:06 am »
The Labour members were offered a choice of leaders.
The had to choose between a leader who promised to fight to expose the Tory Brexit lies, he argued we should not accept Brexit if it brings economic disaster. his argument never won over all those momentum supporters, they supported the candidate who argued we must respect the result of the referendum.
I think one thing to consider is that Labour members probably did not have Brexit in mind when they chose Corbyn over Smith.

I don't think that they made that choice because Corbyn demanded that we respect the referendum, or any other aspect of his Brexit position. And I don't think they rejected Smith due to his warnings about Tory Brexit lies and his wisely suggesting that the result be ignored if it was disadvantageous.

I'd say that at that point Besxit still seemed a lifetime away.

I guess they chose him because they believed he would genuinely introduce the many policies and changes that they believed were essential to rebuild this country and make it fairer and less nasty, whereas they didn't quite trust that Smith would do that - rightly or wrongly.

That's Corbyn's big selling point, I think. People really believe that he is crazy/eccentric enough to really revolutionise the way the country is run, and genuinely build a fairer Britain, instead of just saying he will, like everyone else does, but without delivering.

That he's a class A knobjockey in so many other ways seems not to matter compared to that. That's how desperate so many Labour voters in this country had become for fairness and change. On that score, I don't think I can really blame them, even if Corbs has turned out to be  a nightmare over Brexit.

(Edited)
« Last Edit: March 30, 2019, 06:32:59 am by Ghost Town »
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Re: Brexit thread - Just cancel it dickheads.
« Reply #19788 on: March 30, 2019, 04:56:35 am »
Yep. I'm effectively going to be disenfranchised for the rest of my life unless Brexit is stopped. I'm not voting for any party that enabled it and in our two party system that rules out any chance of my vote ever counting.

I remember back to the summer of 2012 when we held the Olympics and how proud I felt of my country. It wasn't perfect, sure, but I felt that at a fundamental level Britain was a largely open, decent, tolerant, welcoming nation. There were divisions as there are in any society, political and otherwise, but I never had the feeling they were irreconcilable. Brexit shattered that illusion for me. It's all so desperately sad.
Reads like one of your HT threads when we are still 0-0.  :)
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Re: Brexit thread - Just cancel it dickheads.
« Reply #19789 on: March 30, 2019, 06:13:45 am »
Bit confused here, I thought most of NI voted remain, which is understandable? The £1bn bribe for the DUP to back the Tory's was always a bit dubious and founded on what? Then when the Tory's fucked them over with the backstop, whatever so called partnership they had was over.

The majority of NI did vote remain but DUP opposed it, as we all know. I was just pointing out that if the DUP had supported remain, it's reasonable to assume the vote to stay would have been overwhelming.

My overall point is that they would be in a more difficult position now if they had supported remain in the referendum. Their position on Brexit would be very much at odds with their position on the Union and the simple fact that NI  could avoid Brexit by joining with the South would  be much more of a debating point than it is now.

Don't get me wrong they would brazen it out anyway but it would be more difficult and this would most likely cause them short term electoral damage. Although you can never be sure in NI. Their position just appears more consistent as Brexiteers than it would if they had supported remain.

The bribe wasn't about Brexit per se ( at least not the bribe from the Tories!). With the numbers the way they were after the election that money would have been available to prop up a Tory Govt regardless of Brexit.
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Re: Brexit thread - Just cancel it dickheads.
« Reply #19790 on: March 30, 2019, 06:45:58 am »
I don't think the bbc news is run by right-wingers, it seems far more like they have been cowed by numerous tory governments threats to their funding to remain impartial.
Did you read the link I posted? It seems to suggest that a number of people high up in BBC News/politics are right wingers, and that while there has long been questions about lefty influence within the BBC (going back to the 1940s), there never seems to have been similar questions about right-wingers:

Quote
Otherwise, why would they have employed Nick Robinson as chief political correspondent. In 1985 he was President of the Oxford University Conservative Association and caused considerable embarrassment with his right-wing extremist views.

Robinson's senior editor, Thea Rogers, was also a strong supporter of the Conservative Party. In 2012 she left the BBC to become special advisor to the chancellor of the exchequer, George Gideon Oliver Osborne, son of Sir Peter Osborne, 17th Baronet of Ballentaylor and Ballylemon and Felicity Alexandra Loxton-Peacock, educated at St. Paul's and Magdalen College, Oxford. In July, 2015 the chancellor told thousands of teachers, nurses, police, firefighters and civil servants that they would face another four years of having pay rises limited to 1% a year. At the same time he gave Rogers a 42% pay increase and she now receives £98,000 a year.

Then there is Robbie Gibb, the current editor of all BBC TVís political programmes. Before he joined the BBC he was a vice-chairman of the extreme right wing Federation of Conservative Students and went on to become chief of staff to the senior Tory MP Francis Maude.

Andrew Neil, is the presenter of five hours of television a week including This Week, the Daily Politics and Sunday Politics. He is another with a right-wing background. He is a former Rupert Murdoch editor, was a researcher for the Conservative party and is chairman of the Conservative-supporting Spectator magazine. He also argued his free market views at the Hayek lecture at the rightwing Institute of Economic Affairs in November 2005.

It is interesting to note that David Cameron replaced his previous press secretary, Andy Coulson, with the then editor of BBC News, Craig Oliver. Soon afterwards, London mayor Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson recruited BBC political correspondent Guto Harri, to head his media team. When Harri moved on to work for the Murdoch empire he was replaced by Will Walden, a BBC news editor at Westminster.

For over twenty-five years Jeremy Paxman presented Newsnight. It was only after he left the show that he admitted that he had been a long-time supporter of the Conservative Party and in the past had been approached to become the Tory candidate as London mayor. He was replaced by Evan Davis, who in 1998, published a book, Public Spending, where he argued for the privatization of public services.

Although the BBC only seems to employ Conservative supporting presenters. As soon as Melvyn Bragg became a Labour peer, he was immediately banned from appearing on any BBC programmes that might have any political content.

I wonder if they look at their output as a whole, most topical or satirical comedy is going to be anti-tory since they are the party in government, so in the name of 'balance' the news shifts to the right rather than trying to actually be balanced.
[/quote]

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Re: Brexit thread - Just cancel it dickheads.
« Reply #19791 on: March 30, 2019, 06:57:54 am »
Quote
I remember back to the summer of 2012 when we held the Olympics and how proud I felt of my country. It wasn't perfect, sure, but I felt that at a fundamental level Britain was a largely open, decent, tolerant, welcoming nation. There were divisions as there are in any society, political and otherwise, but I never had the feeling they were irreconcilable. Brexit shattered that illusion for me. It's all so desperately sad.
After the Brexit vote, I said to my daughter that that is the model of Britain we have to try to fashion out of the debris. No matter what happens, we cannot sit in despair, we must be active and try to shape the future image of our country.

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Re: Brexit thread - Just cancel it dickheads.
« Reply #19792 on: March 30, 2019, 07:29:32 am »
Okay, so how do I put this? I am not British, but since approx. age 16 have been in love with all things (well, most, lol) British ... Sorry for this rant, you can shout me down now if you like.  :wave
Lovely post, thank you, and Iím sorry about it all.

If it makes you feel any better (lol), another way to think about it is that this isnít really about you at all, or even about Europe as such - itís more an internal ritual pantomime thatís got out of hand, few people really deep down care about it, but here we all are somehow dug in like a derby day crowd, or arguing relatives round the Christmas table.  Part of me still hopes that eventually the taxi home will arrive, or the ref will blow the whistle, and we can all go home and come Monday morning act like it never happened, because in a real sense it didnít.

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Re: Brexit thread - Just cancel it dickheads.
« Reply #19793 on: March 30, 2019, 08:11:11 am »
^isn't that the defrocked priest who kept getting arrested for trying to disrupt sporting events?
Yep, the guy who cost the Brazilian marathon runner the Olympic gold in Athens I think.
It's a sad indictment of the state of mental health nowadays that he's been in a paranoid delusional state for a couple of decades without any signs that he's ever been treated for it.
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Re: Brexit thread - Just cancel it dickheads.
« Reply #19794 on: March 30, 2019, 08:17:40 am »
Lovely post, thank you, and Iím sorry about it all.

If it makes you feel any better (lol), another way to think about it is that this isnít really about you at all, or even about Europe as such - itís more an internal ritual pantomime thatís got out of hand, few people really deep down care about it, but here we all are somehow dug in like a derby day crowd, or arguing relatives round the Christmas table.  Part of me still hopes that eventually the taxi home will arrive, or the ref will blow the whistle, and we can all go home and come Monday morning act like it never happened, because in a real sense it didnít.

The problem is, while most of us, like the end of the Truman show, will forget all about it and move onto the next thing, this desire by the Tories to keep their party in power/further political ambitions/make money has torn families and communities apart, hurt the economy, damaged businesses and caused job losses.
Fuck the Tories

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Re: Brexit thread - Just cancel it dickheads.
« Reply #19795 on: March 30, 2019, 08:29:01 am »
^isn't that the defrocked priest who kept getting arrested for trying to disrupt sporting events?

Defrocked?

At least he's wearing a mini skirt now.

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Re: Brexit thread - Just cancel it dickheads.
« Reply #19796 on: March 30, 2019, 08:32:31 am »
Oh I've just seen that Francois on the telly going on about how his  dad won the war and how he is made of the same stuff and will repel the EU foe.

I was reading about him actually, as to be honest he doesn't look old enough to have a dad who fought at D-Day. There's a 10 year old interview where he talks about it. His dad was in the navy, and after the war met Mark's (Italian immigrant) mother. It doesn't say how old his dad was, but he died when Mark was still young so it doesn't seem he knew him that well. He said then that he grew up obsessed with WW2, building Airfix kits and the like.

So clearly poor Mark has some unresolved issues around his father, the war and possibly Germans in general.
Oh it comes to Divock Origi... he's won the European Cup for Liverpool! The man who cut down Barcelona has taken Tottenham down in Madrid! And it's dreamland worrying times for Liverpool Football Club. Shame really.

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Re: Brexit thread - Just cancel it dickheads.
« Reply #19797 on: March 30, 2019, 08:35:55 am »

-So people voted to leave the EU, but the politicians in charge had no real plan if that happened? I mean, this talk of "soft" and "hard" Brexit seems to indicate that even the Leavers couldn't agree.


I saw someone post a bit in here yesterday that there is an educational session being organised for MPs (including ministers I think it said) about the customs union!  Mate never doubt that the overriding priority for any politician is how any given situation can benefit them - everything else is a secondary consideration.  I know there are a handful where this may not apply but we must assume it does until proven otherwise beyond doubt.

I mean think about that.  The referendum was nearly 3 years ago right?  And it was known to be happening a year before that?  So something that should be fundamental knowledge for any member of parliament and after four years of this shit they still need educating on it?

Hah!  The entire thing was a political maneuver to begin with that they wanted to fail - so there was no need for a plan. Gambling with the future of tens of millions with no regard at all.

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Re: Brexit thread - Just cancel it dickheads.
« Reply #19798 on: March 30, 2019, 08:48:15 am »

The lighting on newsnight was unfortunate but somehow apt.
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Re: Brexit thread - Just cancel it dickheads.
« Reply #19799 on: March 30, 2019, 08:49:47 am »
- So people voted to leave the EU, but the politicians in charge had no real plan if that happened?
I mean it sounds stupid when you put it like that, but one of the things that whole fiasco has brought to the surface for me is just how much our culture values acting like youíre 100% certain of everything, no matter how ridiculous it might be to do so:

- the government made no plans for Leave winning
- the government opposed asking the ECJ whether revocation is possible
- the government still will not contemplate any other outcome but Mayís Deal passing

The thing is theyíre not even wrong to do so.  Doubt is weakness, and weakness is death.  I might not think so, but the culture will not allow it.

Is it like this in other places?  It seems to be so in the US, but hopefully other countries have found a way to get by that isnít a perpetual rolling confidence trick.