Topic: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"

[Ray K]

So it looks like Grieve's No Confidence vote was organised and led by a 'former' Kipper who rejoined the Beaconsfield association.
So basically the Tory loons have learned well from the Labour loons on how to purge their party of the moderates.


I do laugh at my sister, who moved house last year and has gone from having Dominic Grieve as her MP to having Dominic Raab. What a downgrade that is.

[John C]

why  is the BBC broadcasting the speeches of pro-Leave headbangers like Peter Bone, Tim Martin, and Nigel Frottage when it did not extend the same courtesy to the PeoplesVote speakers on Saturday? shocking. So much for not being biased in your coverage

Yep, I'm not convinced about the BBC bias accusations but that really pissed me off yesterday.

[Zeb]

If anyone's unsure about the difference between a free trade agreement, a customs union, and the single market, trade law prof (and red) Sylvia de Mars' book has you covered from p.28 onwards in her book on Brexit and NI. Free (legitimately!) pdf version here: http://www.oapen.org/viewer/web/viewer.html?file=http://www.oapen.org/document/1000392

Spoiler

[close]

[killer-heels]

If anyone's unsure about the difference between a free trade agreement, a customs union, and the single market, trade law prof (and red) Sylvia de Mars' book has you covered from p.28 onwards in her book on Brexit and NI. Free (legitimately!) pdf version here: http://www.oapen.org/viewer/web/viewer.html?file=http://www.oapen.org/document/1000392

Spoiler

[close]

So according to that diagram a free trade arrangement would be better for British producers than a customs union, in that it discourages the importing of products from outside to sell on?

[rob1966]

I was reading about him actually, as to be honest he doesn't look old enough to have a dad who fought at D-Day. There's a 10 year old interview where he talks about it. His dad was in the navy, and after the war met Mark's (Italian immigrant) mother. It doesn't say how old his dad was, but he died when Mark was still young so it doesn't seem he knew him that well. He said then that he grew up obsessed with WW2, building Airfix kits and the like.

So clearly poor Mark has some unresolved issues around his father, the war and possibly Germans in general.

He was born in 1965, I was 41 when I had my first son, so his Dad was probably late teen/early 20's when he served on the minesweeper.

He must hate his Ma seeing as she is the enemy.

[24/7]

The lighting on newsnight was unfortunate but somehow apt.

That is fucking fantastic, thanks I always say in coaching that there is no such thing as coincidence.....!

[andy07]

I was reading about him actually, as to be honest he doesn't look old enough to have a dad who fought at D-Day. There's a 10 year old interview where he talks about it. His dad was in the navy, and after the war met Mark's (Italian immigrant) mother. It doesn't say how old his dad was, but he died when Mark was still young so it doesn't seem he knew him that well. He said then that he grew up obsessed with WW2, building Airfix kits and the like.

So clearly poor Mark has some unresolved issues around his father, the war and possibly Germans in general.

He probably is old enough, similar age to me and my dad was at D-Day.   Similarities end there.  What he doesn’t seem to grasp is the likes of my father fought against exactly the type of regime that Francois personifies.   My dad was incredibly pro European as were many who fought through the Second World War.   Unfortunately we are let down badly by the majority of generations born between 1935 and 1970. 

[Dr. Beaker]

That is fucking fantastic, thanks I always say in coaching that there is no such thing as coincidence.....!

I spotted that at the time and pointed it out to Mrs. Beaker. He got an absolute arse kicking off Maitlis too.

[killer-heels]

Francois bigs up his own military credentials but as someone pointed out on TV, he was in the TA for a bit.

[24/7]

Francois bigs up his own military credentials but as someone pointed out on TV, he was in the TA for a bit.

[24/7]

I spotted that at the time and pointed it out to Mrs. Beaker. He got an absolute arse kicking off Maitlis too.

Is there any video of that for us ex-pats to view?

[Zeb]

So according to that diagram a free trade arrangement would be better for British producers than a customs union, in that it discourages the importing of products from outside to sell on?

Only to the extent they neither import nor export themselves.

[killer-heels]

Is there any video of that for us ex-pats to view?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8dM-lxTgQ6U

[killer-heels]

Only to the extent they neither import nor export themselves.

So for example I am a food producer here in Britain and if I have a free trade deal with the EU then I can sell onto them with no tarrifs. But if I import stuff from another nation outside that bloc to sell on then i am hit with tarrifs?

[24/7]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8dM-lxTgQ6U

[TepidT2O]

It’s ironic isn’t it?

Time after time, the ERG, Johnson et al told us that we hold alll the power and that the EU would cave in at the last minute.

And what actually happened? The ERG types and Johnson backed down, they caved in, they were the ones who bowed to the power of the EU.

I’m pretty sure that the rest will now back down and that enough labour MPs will back it and Mays deal will pass.
How will they get it to parliament? Who knows. But I think it will pass now.

[The Gulleysucker]

His Dad appears to have been born in 1925 so would have been 19 around the time of D Day so it's certainly very possible though his precise role appears to be currently obscure.

According to the digging that went on here, there is no record of him in the RN but there does seem to have been a man of the same name in the Royal Pioneer Corps from 45-48 who served in Palestine.

Now members of the Pioneer Corps would certainly have been present at D Day attached to various units, though exactly why one would have been posted to a RN minesweeper, if it is the same man, is open to conjecture, but stranger things have happened in the chaos of war.

I see no reason to doubt that his Dad served in the armed forces at that time and for that alone his Dad should be respected, though I think perhaps there's been a slight embellishment of what he actually did occuring over the years when telling his son tales.

(All a bit like that Harry character who died the other year being somehow referred to as an RAF pilot by a lot of people when he wasn't air crew at all but ground crew.)

[24/7]

It’s ironic isn’t it?

Time after time, the ERG, Johnson et al told us that we hold alll the power and that the EU would cave in at the last minute.

And what actually happened? The ERG types and Johnson backed down, they caved in, they were the ones who bowed to the power of the EU.

I’m pretty sure that the rest will now back down and that enough labour MPs will back it and Mays deal will pass.
How will they get it to parliament? Who knows. But I think it will pass now.

Good point about caving - but can you see the DUP backing down? They are the ones holding what is, after all, a coalition government together. With Parliament still in control, the house of cards could still collapse. Nothing here is certain.

[Zeb]

So for example I am a food producer here in Britain and if I have a free trade deal with the EU then I can sell onto them with no tarrifs. But if I import stuff from another nation outside that bloc to sell on then i am hit with tarrifs?

Right. But if you're a manufacturer with a supply chain spanning several countries then you're not moving all of that to Britain, you're in a tighter spot.

Just asked Sylvia de Mars your original question. Here's her reply:

"Good question to which there isn't a one fits all answer: it depends on what the supply chain for any given product looks like, eg if products are part-composed with non-EU stuff. If so, producers in UK would run into rules of origin issues when sending things on to EU etc.

You can be a wholly British producer of a final product that still needs eg steel from outside of the EU to be made. Rules of Origin then might mean that that product is not classed as "British" for EU import purposes and is charged import duties anyway. So: depends on sector!"

[TepidT2O]

Good point about caving - but can you see the DUP backing down? They are the ones holding what is, after all, a coalition government together. With Parliament still in control, the house of cards could still collapse. Nothing here is certain.

If they get the rest of the nutters to follow Rees Mogg then I don’t think it matters.

Enough labour MPs will back it to make it pass.

Some of the people who voted for it last time were furious when it didn’t pass ‘disgusted with themselves for backing it.  But they backed it once, they’ll back it again.

These are people who said that this deal was worse than staying in the EU of course. Seemingly not the case now.

And the deal itself? 2021?  Laughable. It will take a decade to sort out future arrangements.

[24/7]

Enough labour MPs will back it to make it pass.

Sadly I think you're right there - and when that happens, I really hope that's the end of Labour as we currently know it. It's fucking depressing to see the state of British politics right now - but no surprise. Everything needs to change - but it won't. And we'll be paying the price for this for decades to come.........

.........maybe though when things have settled, in a couple of generations' time, the kids of the future will study this time period and manage to learn the lessons. Once they've stopped laughing hysterically and shaking their heads in disbelief of course.

Oh and they'll probably be wearing scuba gear, or learning in buildings on stilts

[Riquende]

I see no reason to doubt that his Dad served in the armed forces at that time and for that alone his Dad should be respected, though I think perhaps there's been a slight embellishment of what he actually did occuring over the years when telling his son tales.

Oh I don't disbelieve him, I just assumed his dad must have been older when he was born and wanted to find out a little more. I was more remarking on how Mark's childhood has shaped his views today, he clearly has a very romantic view of his dad as a hero that, due to his passing, has never faded.

I don't have any direct family stories to draw on, but I too was very interested in the war as a kid, made Airfix planes, visited museums, so on. I've grown up with a conviction that such a time must never be allowed to happen again, a healthy disgust for populism and a respect for institutions that try to bridge peoples of the world.

[gamble]

Yesterday wasn’t half as bad as it could have been and yet it was enough to turn my stomach.

This country is going to hell.

And there will be winners from this, the rich will gain far more from it than the actual dumbasses who voted for it. Let alone the dumb asses paying Tommy Robinson £50 a month.

[Ray K]

Matthew Parris in pungent form

[rob1966]

His Dad appears to have been born in 1925 so would have been 19 around the time of D Day so it's certainly very possible though his precise role appears to be currently obscure.

According to the digging that went on here, there is no record of him in the RN but there does seem to have been a man of the same name in the Royal Pioneer Corps from 45-48 who served in Palestine.

Now members of the Pioneer Corps would certainly have been present at D Day attached to various units, though exactly why one would have been posted to a RN minesweeper, if it is the same man, is open to conjecture, but stranger things have happened in the chaos of war.

I see no reason to doubt that his Dad served in the armed forces at that time and for that alone his Dad should be respected, though I think perhaps there's been a slight embellishment of what he actually did occuring over the years when telling his son tales.

(All a bit like that Harry character who died the other year being somehow referred to as an RAF pilot by a lot of people when he wasn't air crew at all but ground crew.)

He reminds me of those social media posts, where there will be a picture of some old veteran with claims that migrants get this that and the other while our servicemen/women are forgotten. Right wing bastards who use someone who fought against what they stand for, for their own political aims..

[Elmo!]

[24/7]

Matthew Parris in pungent form

Oooof!

[BobOnATank]

If you are saying that they would not be naturally idealogical supporters of Brexit, I'd agree. However, I'm not sure that their support for Brexit was just down to the attitudes of thier respective friends and foes.My instinct is that a big factor was that in the event, albeit unlikely at the time, of a Brexit outcome to the referendum, they really didn't want to take the chance of been in a position where they and the overwhelming majority oh NI ( which it would have been if the DUP had opposed it) were against it.

Refusal to accept special treatment for Ni, which at the very least would optically challenge the concept of the Union, would be difficult to brazen out in the event that they had led opposition to Brexit in the first place.

You are being far to purist in your thinking. The DUP have no problem with NI being a special case as long as it is on their terms. They went along with brexit because it was the right wing/british are superior/british are masters of the world attitude i.e their bigotry. The DUP simply have a built in belief that they can do want they want and the british government will pay for it/bail them out. The ideal world for them is that NI is a vassal state and companies are planted/handed to them to decide where and when and how they make money alongside a percentage of the profits for their pockets...

The dark side of it of course is that "take back control" would mean its easier to take bribes and embezzle tax payers money so they are all for that.

[24/7]

When I awoke this morning, the first thing I did is reach for my phone to check the news......in case May had come to her fucking senses yet......but through bleary eyes, the BBC's main headline on its UK page just made me facepalm, groan and then go back to sleep.

PM considers fourth bid to pass Brexit deal

I mean, what the fuck? Einstein's famous quotation springs to mind here.

[The Gulleysucker]

I loved the crocodile on the sandbank analogy.

[Red_Mist]

Bizarre isn’t it. Must be really difficult to work with someone as blinkered and single-minded as that. If she put a tenth of this amount of stubborn determination into solving homelessness, you’d never see anyone on streets again, ever (unless her plan was rubbish of course, which is always a possibility!)

If she goes again and gets it through, you might just have to hold your hands up and say fair enough. She’s relentless, like rust or rising damp. The Japanese Knotweed of politics.

[No666]

Chris Grey's latest is up:
http://chrisgreybrexitblog.blogspot.com

[thejbs]

I mean, what the fuck? Einstein's famous quotation springs to mind here.

No record of Einstein having said that but either way, it fits.

[Red Beret]

Wish the EU had space for roughly 16 million refugees...

If I were able minded I would just up sticks and fuck off out of the country. Maybe take my chances in Spain or Malta or Amsterdam.

[Red_Mist]

Chris Grey's latest is up:
http://chrisgreybrexitblog.blogspot.com

Thanks No666, it’s good to get a clear summary, even though it’s reassuring and unnerving in equal measure. They should just read it out on the news. Still, vox pops eh. They’re much more informative! Let’s have more of them 

[rob1966]

Wish the EU had space for roughly 16 million refugees...

If I were able minded I would just up sticks and fuck off out of the country. Maybe take my chances in Spain or Malta or Amsterdam.

I can't uproot the wife and kids otherwise I would do that. I know a fella lives in Southern Spain, flies back to the UK, does 6 weeks tramping on the HGVs for the agencies then goes back to Spain for a few weeks.

[24/7]

No record of Einstein having said that but either way, it fits.

Oh? Never knew that thanks* - it's like the Gandhi line about being the change you want to see - apparently he never said it - but the lines are attributed to these great people so I take them at face value - and yes, it fits - May is just hitting repeat. It's like she's plugged in each night and rebooted to 'safe mode' every morning. Just bizarre. I can't see how she can justify it - but with Brexit we're in unchartered waters so it's hardly surprising to see people running on repeat mode - because they lack the will and/or the imagination to do anything else..

*edit - did a bit of digging - found this - https://www.businessinsider.com/misattributed-quotes-2013-10

The Gandhi line's not in it - but the Einstein one is - as well as Voltaire's misattributed one about rights, which also fits here, I guess - I don't agree with what these Brexit Brainwashers are saying - but I defend their right to say it - how else can we learn about their ignorance and attempt to re-educate if we don't hear them......

[rob1966]

Oh? Never knew that thanks - it's like the Gandhi line about being the change you want to see - apparently he never said it - but the lines are attributed to these great people so I take them at face value - and yes, it fits - May is just hitting repeat. It's like she's plugged in each night and rebooted to 'safe mode' every morning. Just bizarre. I can't see how she can justify it - but with Brexit we're in unchartered waters so it's hardly surprising to see people running on repeat mode - because they lack the will and/or the imagination to do anything else..

Other than revoking A50 and getting the economy going again (I know, thats a stupid idea right?), she has nothing else to offer, so all she can do is keep putting it forwards in the hope they give in to her.

[24/7]

Other than revoking A50 and getting the economy going again (I know, thats a stupid idea right?), she has nothing else to offer, so all she can do is keep putting it forwards in the hope they give in to her.

She could offer her resignation

[Red_Mist]

She could offer her resignation

She’s already made the strangest resignation offer in history. Succeed and I’ll resign. Fail and I’ll stay on. 

I might try that one at work!