Topic: The Klopp Template

[Chris~]

Jones would be fine in midfield as a two in the right set up. Arsenal are playing Xhaxa there and they've been fine, City play B. Silva and De Bruyne in midfield and are fine defensively. I get the argument Klopp needs midfielders to do x more then other managers, but he's adaptable as he constantly shows.

I also think the fear of Jones and Elliott playing in midfield, not just from Dave but wider from some fans, ties in to why England only produces one type of midfielder it seems. There is a massive fear of what they can't do if your a technical player and so it's easier to shove them forward as they develop in to the first team, similar to centre backs coming through at full back I guess. England has so much money you can buy anyone ready made you want so you don't have to worry about trying to develop players. Klopp actually seems like one of the few who's not like this Henderson and to an extent Lallana were moved back, Jones and now Elliott as well. He's trying them both there so he sees something worthwhile in their midfield roles.

[tubby]

The difference between Elliott and Jones is that Jones is way stronger at shielding the ball and getting away from people, he's, what, 6'1 and is quicker over the ground in comparison.  No worries about him playing as one of two in a double-pivot and I think that plays to his strengths.  It's when he gets closer to the box that it all starts to fall apart a little for him.

[RedG13]

Average positions they took up last night.

Even when it was technically a 433 on paper it would show up like with with Firmino even with mane, Henderson or whoever on the right side even with them and Salah in front of the player on the right. It just moving Salah from the Wide striker role to more of 2nd striker type on the right and using an central type 9.

[redk84]

Happy with Curtis playing that role when back to fitness. I too think he was being shaped in Gini's style before he got his injury too

Elliott would be ok and Arthur I guess aswell at some point...only thing I worry about with this new setup is if the attacking players get isolated from the rest. Can happen if their movement is not as good and we are being pressured. But we shall see

Arsenal will be a good warmup to City

[Eeyore]

I don't really understand how you can equate not winning the ball, almost ever, to well rounded but to each their own.

Maybe because it isnt true last season in the Premier League, Jones averaged just under 1 successful tackle per game.

That was better than Hendo and half a tackle less per 90 than Fabinho. Sure he could improve in that area but he is 20 years of age and transitioning from a front three player to a more defensive one.

[Knight]

Even when it was technically a 433 on paper it would show up like with with Firmino even with mane, Henderson or whoever on the right side even with them and Salah in front of the player on the right. It just moving Salah from the Wide striker role to more of 2nd striker type on the right and using an central type 9.

I may be misunderstanding you because you must have written this quickly but I'm pretty confident this looks quite different to how our normal heat maps from this season look. Trent is way deeper, we have 2 forwards central (nowadays Salah and the left forward play wider), and we have 2 clear 6s. That said, if someone could post some others from this season, that'd show it either way.

[Schmidt]

The difference between Elliott and Jones is that Jones is way stronger at shielding the ball and getting away from people, he's, what, 6'1 and is quicker over the ground in comparison.  No worries about him playing as one of two in a double-pivot and I think that plays to his strengths.  It's when he gets closer to the box that it all starts to fall apart a little for him.

Jones seems to have the tactical requirements of that role drilled into him too, he does a lot of what he does from a deeper position and covers the fullback more. The left side 8 probably is a bit easier compared to the right as we've always had forwards happy to defend and play a little deeper on that side, and Robertson/van Dijk/Tsimikas are strong defensively, but still Jones does his job over there first and foremost before getting involved in the attack.

I'm also not completely convinced on the tackling stats (even though his are decent) being hugely important. A big part of that role involves jockeying players to slow down their attacks and cut off passing lanes while other players can move in, which often results in us winning the ball back without the 8 getting anything other than a pressure counted towards their stats (his pressure stats are good too).

[Dave McCoy]

Jones seems to have the tactical requirements of that role drilled into him too, he does a lot of what he does from a deeper position and covers the fullback more. The left side 8 probably is a bit easier compared to the right as we've always had forwards happy to defend and play a little deeper on that side, and Robertson/van Dijk/Tsimikas are strong defensively, but still Jones does his job over there first and foremost before getting involved in the attack.

I'm also not completely convinced on the tackling stats (even though his are decent) being hugely important. A big part of that role involves jockeying players to slow down their attacks and cut off passing lanes while other players can move in, which often results in us winning the ball back without the 8 getting anything other than a pressure counted towards their stats (his pressure stats are good too).

This is just crazy town type stuff for me. It's one thing to say maybe tackling isn't all that important but a completely different thing to say that it's ok to just not really do it at all and instead you just need to run at someone and hope the rest of your teammates take care of it. I'd have to go back in Curtis's thread but I think it was Funky who made a whole show of how since Jones got in front of the ManC player then that counted as doing something even though it didn't actually affect ManC moving the ball forward and scoring. How can that have any value to a team? Especially if we all acknowledge that Thiago is basically the pinnacle of midfield play then it's just non-sensical as Thiago actually wins the ball a ton and isn't just shepherding the attacking player towards a defender who will do something about it.

Jones would be fine in midfield as a two in the right set up. Arsenal are playing Xhaxa there and they've been fine, City play B. Silva and De Bruyne in midfield and are fine defensively. I get the argument Klopp needs midfielders to do x more then other managers, but he's adaptable as he constantly shows.

I also think the fear of Jones and Elliott playing in midfield, not just from Dave but wider from some fans, ties in to why England only produces one type of midfielder it seems. There is a massive fear of what they can't do if your a technical player and so it's easier to shove them forward as they develop in to the first team, similar to centre backs coming through at full back I guess. England has so much money you can buy anyone ready made you want so you don't have to worry about trying to develop players. Klopp actually seems like one of the few who's not like this Henderson and to an extent Lallana were moved back, Jones and now Elliott as well. He's trying them both there so he sees something worthwhile in their midfield roles.

Arsenal haven't been fine playing Xhaka in midfield until this year, otherwise it was always a joke and a reflection of how far they had fallen. If they falter this year it will probably revolve around having to rely on him while Partey is injured or in jail. They also are playing 3 CB's in defense now which is more cover than we use.

For ManC, you can get away with playing Silva, Foden and KdB as midfielders when you have 5 players covering at all times to stop any type of transition attacks. You could certainly play Jones or Elliott or Carvalho more comfortably as midfielders if you were to take the same tactics to where 1 FB + 2 CB are always reserved with then Rodri and the other FB in front of them. We don't do that, you need your midfielders then to actually win the ball and when they don't we've seen consistently this year the result.

[Schmidt]

This is just crazy town type stuff for me. It's one thing to say maybe tackling isn't all that important but a completely different thing to say that it's ok to just not really do it at all and instead you just need to run at someone and hope the rest of your teammates take care of it. I'd have to go back in Curtis's thread but I think it was Funky who made a whole show of how since Jones got in front of the ManC player then that counted as doing something even though it didn't actually affect ManC moving the ball forward and scoring. How can that have any value to a team? Especially if we all acknowledge that Thiago is basically the pinnacle of midfield play then it's just non-sensical as Thiago actually wins the ball a ton and isn't just shepherding the attacking player towards a defender who will do something about it.

Except no one is saying that, as has been pointed out he does make tackles, at a pretty similar rate to what Gini was doing back in our title winning season. He also has a lot of pressures and his pass rate is high, and he does a lot of both in the middle third. He's generally doing everything he needs to be doing in the role, all at a young age while transitioning from being an attacker.

He's a good player, still learning but much more suited to that midfield role than Elliot. Would I play him and Elliot together? No, but that's because I wouldn't play Elliot in midfield at all if given the choice, I'd be fine with Jones and any of our other midfielders however.

[Eeyore]

Jones made more tackles per 90 in the Premier League than Hendo

[Dave McCoy]

Except no one is saying that, as has been pointed out he does make tackles, at a pretty similar rate to what Gini was doing back in our title winning season. He also has a lot of pressures and his pass rate is high, and he does a lot of both in the middle third. He's generally doing everything he needs to be doing in the role, all at a young age while transitioning from being an attacker.

He's a good player, still learning but much more suited to that midfield role than Elliot. Would I play him and Elliot together? No, but that's because I wouldn't play Elliot in midfield at all if given the choice, I'd be fine with Jones and any of our other midfielders however.

He doesn't make tackles and neither did Gini. What Gini actually ever did was just all in the eye of the beholder which is similar to how you're viewing Jones. There is no "there there" so to say.

[Eeyore]

He doesn't make tackles and neither did Gini. What Gini actually ever did was just all in the eye of the beholder which is similar to how you're viewing Jones. There is no "there there" so to say.

He made more tackles per 90 than Hendo.

["21C or 70F?" SchizoidWeatherMan!]

He made more tackles per 90 than Hendo.

Successful tackles/total tackles? 


Interceptions?

Meaningful numbers please

[Eeyore]

Successful tackles/total tackles? 


Interceptions?

Meaningful numbers please

Jones made more successful tackles per 90 minutes in the League last season than Hendo.

[Egyptian36]

Don't think the number of tackles means much to be honest. Alot of things doesn't show in stats or get noticed like If the midfielder positioned himself to force the opponent player to pass to a specific area or cut the option of a dangerous pass. That's why Gini was so underrated by us fans while Klopp kept talking about how smart he is tactically. With Jones I don't know but it seems we have more gaps with him and easier to get past our midfield but to be fair the balance is important too some players work well together and some don't depending on the players skill set.

[Eeyore]

Don't think the number of tackles means much to be honest. Alot of things doesn't show in stats or get noticed like If the midfielder positioned himself to force the opponent player to pass to a specific area or cut the option of a dangerous pass. That's why Gini was so underrated by us fans while Klopp kept talking about how smart he is tactically. With Jones I don't know but it seems we have more gaps with him and easier to get past our midfield but to be fair the balance is important too some players work well together and some don't depending on the players skill set.

Absolutely but Dave McCoy keeps stating that Jones never wins the ball back.

Which is patently false.

[Dave McCoy]

Successful tackles/total tackles? 


Interceptions?

Meaningful numbers please

It's basically the same, Hendo attempted 1.28 tackles and won .83 per 90 vs. Jones attempted 1.26 and won .95 last season. Both are bottom 10% for midfielders in this stat. What this would scream to me is in no situation would you want to play Jones and Hendo together. Unless you just want the opponent to possess the ball until they shoot or kick the ball out of play then someone at some point does need to win it back. This really isn't a hard concept to understand.

Edit: It should also be noted that Hendo used to win the ball a lot, it's only now as he ages out where you could say this is even a comparison. I don't think that reflects well but to each their own.

[RedG13]

I may be misunderstanding you because you must have written this quickly but I'm pretty confident this looks quite different to how our normal heat maps from this season look. Trent is way deeper, we have 2 forwards central (nowadays Salah and the left forward play wider), and we have 2 clear 6s. That said, if someone could post some others from this season, that'd show it either way.

It will so more a lopsided 4231 with Salah as the 9 but on the right most of the time. RCM in the spot is more where salah was last game at times. This is just clearly on being defined of it. I think trent was generally higher too. If you go look at the games where Elliott played start of last year it will be clear. Same with City game in Fa cup semi final. Sometimes it was not as  clear but role wise it been 4231 since Klopp been here. Now kinda moving to a clearer 4231 because moving Salah to be more a creator and getting an central 9(nunez).

[killer-heels]

Thought Klopp sounded really good today. The guy is so relaxed and definitely not pressured in anyway. Very reassuring.

[Samie]

[killer-heels]

In a positive, we are getting younger.

[Knight]

In a positive, we are getting younger.

It’s not as bad as this owing to Konate being out and Firmino playing more minutes than he will normally with Jota out and Nunez suspended/ settling in. That said, it’s not great.

[tubby]

We're finishing this game chasing a goal playing 442 with Henderson and Elliott on the wings.  Wtf is going on, why is this happening?  Some really odd decisions from the coaching team of late.

[CS111]

Any other manager at any other club and you'd think they have lost the plot or are trying to make a certain point

[SMASHerano]

Not sure what the template is anymore. We're putting in one bad performance after another and we seem to have forgotten how to defend.

[Oldskoolcool]

I'm a staunch Klopp fan but we are going in to complete tailspin, Trent sums us up as a team atm. We look in total disarray, absolute chaos defensively, midfield looks incoherent and the forward line very inconsistent.

I trust in Klopp and the team to turn this around, just totally confused how we have gone from 2 games away from 4 trophies to what we are witnessing atm.

[Cafe De Paris]

Worryingly we are 14 points off the top and 4 points off the bottom 3. Terrible.

[Studgotelli]

The defending this season has been shocking. Big mess for him to sort out the coaching team have believed their own hype a bit too much imo

[Clint Eastwood]

His subs have been terrible recently. Having lost Diaz to injury, taking off Salah and then Jota was baffling.

[Dree]

The defending this season has been shocking. Big mess for him to sort out the coaching team have believed their own hype a bit too much imo

[Caps4444]

An end of a cycle….that’s all it is.  we should have prepared for it, but we didn’t….and now this will set us back this year and probably next.

[Dree]

You can’t coach players into not being so old and getting overrun all the time.

[Knight]

From top to bottom we’ve dropped the ball. At the top there has been bizzare inability to move players on, temper Klopp’s natural loyalty and refresh the midfield. Klopp and his staff have had, and are having, a nightmare. This team which is finishing the game is so weird. Some of the players are either unable to do it these days, their legs have gone, or they’re having an absolute shocker and need to look in the mirror and take some responsibility.

[naYoRHa2b]

The higher you are the further the fall and we've fucking fallen alright.

[A-Bomb]

An end of a cycle….that’s all it is.  we should have prepared for it, but we didn’t….and now this will set us back this year and probably next.

Yup, out fought, out worked and out thought today - Arsenal looked young and hungry., similar ironically to what you'd have came to expect from a typical Klopp team. 

[adruk87]

His subs have been terrible recently. Having lost Diaz to injury, taking off Salah and then Jota was baffling.

Jota I agree, but Salah was non existant today, had to go off

[DHRED]

Mentality minstrels

[Haggis36]

You can’t coach players into not being so old and getting overrun all the time.

You can put them into a set-up that emphasises their strengths rather than absolutely rinsing their weaknesses though...

[Johnnyboy1973]

Can't defend and no legs in that second half.

Doesn't look like changing either.

[David Struhme]

Very odd subs today