Author Topic: Thoughts on Shamima Begum?  (Read 62159 times)

Offline Jiminy Cricket

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Re: Thoughts on Shamima Begum?
« Reply #1160 on: February 27, 2024, 11:05:52 am »
This is always an odd one because it depends on how people ask the question, it’s can be asked in a genuinely inquisitive and friendly way or it can be asked in an aggressive way. I was born in the UK but if someone asks me where I’m from my default answer is usually “my parents are from India” because you can usually tell that’s what they really want to know so why not just give them the answer, it’s not something to be ashamed of.
Funnily enough, many, many years ago, on a night out with the lads, I was approached by an attractive woman. I initially thought she was chatting me up. Nope. She asked if was I Irish? 'Well, my parents are from Ireland', I responded. With that, she was off back to her mates. 'Yep. Irish'. It seems that there had been some kind of debate/bet about her being able to recognise Irish people. So, milky white people get it occasionally too. ;D

But I am with you. Surely, even if a bit presumptive, awkward, and indicative of some unworldliness, most people asking you this question are probably just trying to be nice. But in the case of accents, the question is more understandable. I got it rather a lot when I lived in the US. And I was once complimented by a Mexican US immigrant on the standard of my English, presumably, not realising that we speak English in the United Kingdom (perhaps I should have said that 'I am from England'). I was somewhat lost for words. ;D
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Offline WhereAngelsPlay

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Re: Thoughts on Shamima Begum?
« Reply #1161 on: February 27, 2024, 04:14:26 pm »
Your green top hat and tails would've given it away jiminy.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2024, 10:17:54 pm by WhereAngelsPlay »
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Offline Jiminy Cricket

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Re: Thoughts on Shamima Begum?
« Reply #1162 on: February 27, 2024, 05:06:34 pm »
Your top hat and tails would've given it away jiminy.
They were in at the dry cleaners. But I was wearing my monocle.
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Offline Sangria

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Re: Thoughts on Shamima Begum?
« Reply #1163 on: February 27, 2024, 09:56:12 pm »
Funnily enough, many, many years ago, on a night out with the lads, I was approached by an attractive woman. I initially thought she was chatting me up. Nope. She asked if was I Irish? 'Well, my parents are from Ireland', I responded. With that, she was off back to her mates. 'Yep. Irish'. It seems that there had been some kind of debate/bet about her being able to recognise Irish people. So, milky white people get it occasionally too. ;D

But I am with you. Surely, even if a bit presumptive, awkward, and indicative of some unworldliness, most people asking you this question are probably just trying to be nice. But in the case of accents, the question is more understandable. I got it rather a lot when I lived in the US. And I was once complimented by a Mexican US immigrant on the standard of my English, presumably, not realising that we speak English in the United Kingdom (perhaps I should have said that 'I am from England'). I was somewhat lost for words. ;D

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Offline WhereAngelsPlay

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Re: Thoughts on Shamima Begum?
« Reply #1164 on: February 27, 2024, 10:18:21 pm »
They were in at the dry cleaners. But I was wearing my monocle.

My post never made sense, it does now  ;D
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Re: Thoughts on Shamima Begum?
« Reply #1165 on: February 27, 2024, 10:34:21 pm »
This is always an odd one because it depends on how people ask the question, it’s can be asked in a genuinely inquisitive and friendly way or it can be asked in an aggressive way. I was born in the UK but if someone asks me where I’m from my default answer is usually “my parents are from India” because you can usually tell that’s what they really want to know so why not just give them the answer, it’s not something to be ashamed of.

That's very magnanimous of you. Many 2nd+ Australians of SE Asian decent feel resentment at being asked where they come from, and I think that's perfectly understandable. Perhaps it doesn't feel so egregious in the UK where the person asking the question is probably part of the indigenous population, but being asked by a white Australian whose ancestors have a maximum 236 years connection to the land, usually far less, must feel a bit rich. Chinese settlement in Australia exploded during the Gold rush era so there's really very little discrepancy there. If I was asked by an aboriginal Australian where I'm from, I would not be offended even if my great great...grandfather had landed in 1788.

Offline Jiminy Cricket

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Re: Thoughts on Shamima Begum?
« Reply #1166 on: February 27, 2024, 11:30:02 pm »
My post never made sense, it does now  ;D
I worked with what I had. ;D
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Offline ChaChaMooMoo

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Re: Thoughts on Shamima Begum?
« Reply #1167 on: February 29, 2024, 06:40:13 am »
This is always an odd one because it depends on how people ask the question, it’s can be asked in a genuinely inquisitive and friendly way or it can be asked in an aggressive way. I was born in the UK but if someone asks me where I’m from my default answer is usually “my parents are from India” because you can usually tell that’s what they really want to know so why not just give them the answer, it’s not something to be ashamed of.

Thats not something to be ashamed of to be honest. 1 out of 1000 might probably have nefarious intentions, on a bad day, if you are unlucky. But thats not the norm in the soceity, no matter how effed the society seems to be now.

Where one is from, they should be proud of it. Afterall, what are we without history and identity.

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Re: Thoughts on Shamima Begum?
« Reply #1168 on: February 29, 2024, 11:16:23 am »
Afterall, what are we without history and identity.

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Offline bigbonedrawky

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Re: Thoughts on Shamima Begum?
« Reply #1169 on: February 29, 2024, 02:05:11 pm »

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Re: Thoughts on Shamima Begum?
« Reply #1170 on: February 29, 2024, 02:48:00 pm »
I'm not proud of being a Brit.

Scouser first, Chinese/Taffy second and third.

England's done some good things and some shite things I'm not proud of.
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Offline bigbonedrawky

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Re: Thoughts on Shamima Begum?
« Reply #1171 on: February 29, 2024, 04:42:41 pm »
I'm not proud of being a Brit.

Scouser first, Chinese/Taffy second and third.

England's done some good things and some shite things I'm not proud of.
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Offline Brissyred

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Re: Thoughts on Shamima Begum?
« Reply #1172 on: March 1, 2024, 12:47:49 am »
It's a bit different if you have an accent. How many people ask you before you open your mouth?
If you are non white and asked that question, jumping to the conclusion that the question is due to racism is a bit racist, is it not?

Offline WhereAngelsPlay

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Re: Thoughts on Shamima Begum?
« Reply #1173 on: March 1, 2024, 12:52:57 am »
If you are non white and asked that question, jumping to the conclusion that the question is due to racism is a bit racist, is it not?

Not really, no it's not.  (says the white man).
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Re: Thoughts on Shamima Begum?
« Reply #1174 on: March 1, 2024, 12:57:21 am »
No.

It may not be malicious racism, but it's still based on a subconscious assumption that "real Australians" look a certain way that excludes the person being asked.

Maybe I've misunderstood what you're getting at, but I can totally understand a born-and-bred Australian being annoyed or offended that they're forever treated as an outsider while those with equal or lesser connection to the country are accepted as insiders because of skin colour. Tell me you've never heard anyone in this country, without any intended malice, say something like "I went to the shops today and there were hardly any Aussies there", meaning the shop was full of people of Asian or Middle Eastern appearance who, for all we know, might be descended from 19th century immigrants.

Offline Red_Mist

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Re: Thoughts on Shamima Begum?
« Reply #1175 on: March 1, 2024, 08:37:39 am »
This is always an odd one because it depends on how people ask the question, it’s can be asked in a genuinely inquisitive and friendly way or it can be asked in an aggressive way. I was born in the UK but if someone asks me where I’m from my default answer is usually “my parents are from India” because you can usually tell that’s what they really want to know so why not just give them the answer, it’s not something to be ashamed of.
Your response is admirable, but personally I can’t really understand why people ask it at all. I never would IN CASE it caused offence. Obviously if the conversation is specifically about heritage then fine. But to just come out with it…I’d think “mind your own business” if I was asked it, especially by someone I didn’t know well.

Offline Boston always unofficial

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Re: Thoughts on Shamima Begum?
« Reply #1176 on: March 1, 2024, 07:22:51 pm »
Not sure if i've got the wrong end of this but if i'm sat next to someone at a bar and hear an accent and i wanna chat i'll ask them where they're from,no harm in it.Same as wearing a team shirt.Might talk to em,might just ignore em!
                                         And if Begum was born in Britain she should be allowed back and then dealt with.
« Last Edit: March 1, 2024, 10:37:21 pm by Boston always unofficial »

Offline west_london_red

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Re: Thoughts on Shamima Begum?
« Reply #1177 on: March 1, 2024, 09:56:13 pm »
Your response is admirable, but personally I can’t really understand why people ask it at all. I never would IN CASE it caused offence. Obviously if the conversation is specifically about heritage then fine. But to just come out with it…I’d think “mind your own business” if I was asked it, especially by someone I didn’t know well.

There’s plenty of reasons why people might ask you where your from and it not be offensive, sometimes it’s just to break the ice, sometimes they might have some connection of their own to the Indian subcontinent, sometimes they are after travel tips, sometimes it’s because they want to wish you happy Diwali or Eid so might ask your background for example and are trying to be polite.

And here’s an interesting one for you and without coming over all Norman Tebitt… we’re all so British but come the Cricket World Cup you’ll be hard pressed to find a British born Asian who isn’t supporting India, Pakistan, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh or Afghanistan…
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Offline Jiminy Cricket

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Re: Thoughts on Shamima Begum?
« Reply #1178 on: March 1, 2024, 10:40:28 pm »
There’s plenty of reasons why people might ask you where your from and it not be offensive, sometimes it’s just to break the ice, sometimes they might have some connection of their own to the Indian subcontinent, sometimes they are after travel tips, sometimes it’s because they want to wish you happy Diwali or Eid so might ask your background for example and are trying to be polite.

And here’s an interesting one for you and without coming over all Norman Tebitt… we’re all so British but come the Cricket World Cup you’ll be hard pressed to find a British born Asian who isn’t supporting India, Pakistan, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh or Afghanistan…
Similar for many of us Brits with Irish parents when Ireland are in the FIFA World Cup - but that's an exceedingly rare beast! I see it as simply a celebration of heritage.
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Offline west_london_red

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Re: Thoughts on Shamima Begum?
« Reply #1179 on: March 1, 2024, 11:04:27 pm »
Similar for many of us Brits with Irish parents when Ireland are in the FIFA World Cup - but that's an exceedingly rare beast! I see it as simply a celebration of heritage.

To be clear I’m not judging or criticising someone for supporting the country their parents are from over the country they are born and live in (I generally don’t support either), but more pointing out that it’s a complex subject how people identify themselves and it isn’t always consistent and people also shouldn’t assume that someone necessarily identifies themselves as being from where they are born, personally I identify myself as more Indian than British as a lot of children of immigrants do.
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Re: Thoughts on Shamima Begum?
« Reply #1180 on: March 2, 2024, 06:36:10 am »
Not sure if i've got the wrong end of this but if i'm sat next to someone at a bar and hear an accent and i wanna chat i'll ask them where they're from,no harm in it.Same as wearing a team shirt.Might talk to em,might just ignore em!
                                         And if Begum was born in Britain she should be allowed back and then dealt with.

No problem with that at all... I spoke about accents earlier, it's an obvious indicator (along with clothing etc) that you are not local so of course it's a natural icebreaker.

Offline Jiminy Cricket

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Re: Thoughts on Shamima Begum?
« Reply #1181 on: March 2, 2024, 10:20:26 am »
To be clear I’m not judging or criticising someone for supporting the country their parents are from over the country they are born and live in (I generally don’t support either), but more pointing out that it’s a complex subject how people identify themselves and it isn’t always consistent and people also shouldn’t assume that someone necessarily identifies themselves as being from where they are born, personally I identify myself as more Indian than British as a lot of children of immigrants do.
No problem. I took your comment as you have explained it there. I was just commenting too. I was not meaning to imply anything about you or that you were 'judging'.
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Offline Red_Mist

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Re: Thoughts on Shamima Begum?
« Reply #1182 on: March 2, 2024, 11:45:23 am »
There’s plenty of reasons why people might ask you where your from and it not be offensive, sometimes it’s just to break the ice, sometimes they might have some connection of their own to the Indian subcontinent, sometimes they are after travel tips, sometimes it’s because they want to wish you happy Diwali or Eid so might ask your background for example and are trying to be polite.
Yes that’s fine if no offence is caused. But….not everyone has the same mindset as you (don’t mind being asked). For some it might cause offence, so I’d much rather have conversations about other stuff, unless the other person randomly makes it clear they want a chat about their heritage (which has occasionally happened, but it’s pretty rare).

Also, I did a training course on equality and inclusion, and it specifically said “where are you from” is not something you should ask. That just confirmed what I already thought. I work with dozens of people with all kinds of heritage and we all get on perfectly without it, so I think I’ll stick to that rule.

Offline classycarra

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Re: Thoughts on Shamima Begum?
« Reply #1183 on: March 2, 2024, 12:11:12 pm »
I get what you're saying, why you're motivated that way and can see that it's working fine - just to be clear that the following isn't a criticisim, or a 'yu should do like i do!' post.

i just think not feeling comfortable to share a sincere interest with someone about their culture/background etc would (in my shoes only) have prevented so many interesting discussions, and getting to know so many people better than if neither party wanted to broach heritage

separate point, but i feel like following hard and fast rules (like that workplace one, potentially) is so limiting - especially when those rules often fail with some of the fundamental stuff, like acknowledging that intent is hugely significant. obviously there's times when questions about 'from' are negative and hostile, but theyre usually obvious and clearly distinguished from when someone is keen on a nice chat about it

Offline Red_Mist

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Re: Thoughts on Shamima Begum?
« Reply #1184 on: March 2, 2024, 12:42:14 pm »
I get what you're saying, why you're motivated that way and can see that it's working fine - just to be clear that the following isn't a criticisim, or a 'yu should do like i do!' post.

i just think not feeling comfortable to share a sincere interest with someone about their culture/background etc would (in my shoes only) have prevented so many interesting discussions, and getting to know so many people better than if neither party wanted to broach heritage

separate point, but i feel like following hard and fast rules (like that workplace one, potentially) is so limiting - especially when those rules often fail with some of the fundamental stuff, like acknowledging that intent is hugely significant. obviously there's times when questions about 'from' are negative and hostile, but theyre usually obvious and clearly distinguished from when someone is keen on a nice chat about it
Good points CC, and yes it would be a shame to miss out on those interactions. But I don’t really miss out doing it my way. For instance, I regularly have really interesting chats with a colleague from Eritrea, and want to hear all about the country as it’s fascinating every time he comes back from a trip there to see his family. But it stemmed initially, eight years ago, from him telling me he’s off to visit family in Eritrea. Before that, our conversations were far less interesting, just the usual mundane stuff that goes on between colleagues, which sort of bears out your point to be honest :)

On your other point, I must admit I was surprised it was said on the course. Despite me not asking it, I agree there are times and ways it can be asked without causing offence. That that point was not made as a caveat did make me stop and wonder why. But then when I thought it through, i realised that it MIGHT offend, so probably best avoided, which is what I was doing anyway. But it did surprise me and I did think maybe it’s in some way counter productive.

I’d still personally think that I’d think ‘mind your own business’ unless it was asked in a certain way that not everyone can manage. But it’s impossible to know how you’d react really so how I’d imagine I’d react is probably a moot point. Which goes full circle to the option least likely to cause offence being to not ask it. We’re probably repeating the debate that was had when designing the course content!
« Last Edit: March 2, 2024, 01:12:49 pm by Red_Mist »

Offline Red_Mist

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Re: Thoughts on Shamima Begum?
« Reply #1185 on: March 2, 2024, 01:11:26 pm »
I’ve just gone through the list of every black or Asian colleague in my head and, apart from my Eritrean friend and a new girl who I had a recent chat in the canteen with about Jamaica as she’d just been to visit family, it’s just not something that it would be right to ask, imo. I think it would be an odd conversation starter. But maybe that’s something lacking in me, I don’t know.

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Re: Thoughts on Shamima Begum?
« Reply #1186 on: March 2, 2024, 02:32:18 pm »
We were looking at getting some private tuition for our youngest and first looked at online. The company we decided to take a closer look with offered a free half-hour taster with a tutor they'd hand-picked.

The girl they chose was only young and looked to have south-Asian heritage. I was concerned about her level of experience, as we wanted an actual experienced teacher who taught GCSE.

At the end of the session - and she came across really well, was very likeable - I asked what her background was.

I was mortified when she started with "Well my parents originally came from Bangladesh and..." I had to cut in and clarify I meant her career/teaching experience.

 :-[

(She was a 2nd year Med student, so we didn't end up using her)
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Offline bigbonedrawky

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Re: Thoughts on Shamima Begum?
« Reply #1187 on: March 2, 2024, 03:30:12 pm »
Damn I ask people all the time  :D "Where you from ?" It's generally with locals ie which local area.
But... I also do it when I hear different accents especially if its rare. If I hear the same rare British or
foreign accent twice, I got to know, regardless of race, religion or what they look like. Context is key
though, It's the words that come before and after "Where you from" that are more important.

It's a pursuit of knowledge...

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Re: Thoughts on Shamima Begum?
« Reply #1188 on: March 2, 2024, 03:31:49 pm »
Damn I ask people all the time  :D "Where you from ?" It's generally with locals ie which local area.
But... I also do it when I hear different accents especially if its rare. If I hear the same rare British or
foreign accent twice, I got to know, regardless of race, religion or what they look like. Context is key
though, It's the words that come before and after "Where you from" that are more important.

It's a pursuit of knowledge...

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Same, it's a common question when you're working on site.
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Offline bigbonedrawky

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Re: Thoughts on Shamima Begum?
« Reply #1189 on: March 2, 2024, 04:20:22 pm »
Same, it's a common question when you're working on site.
When I was a kid answering that question to other kids, who live a mile away or less, quite often led
to violence...  ;D
We changed the meaning of that phrase in around 89/90 When strangers asked you that question, it usually meant they about to shake your hand or try to hug you  ;)

Offline Red_Mist

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Re: Thoughts on Shamima Begum?
« Reply #1190 on: March 2, 2024, 04:56:13 pm »
Damn I ask people all the time  :D "Where you from ?" It's generally with locals ie which local area.
But... I also do it when I hear different accents especially if its rare. If I hear the same rare British or
foreign accent twice, I got to know, regardless of race, religion or what they look like. Context is key
though, It's the words that come before and after "Where you from" that are more important.

It's a pursuit of knowledge...

Honest...I'm not racist ...Some of my best friends are Ginger.       
 
Same, it's a common question when you're working on site.
Can I just clarify…and apols for going right off topic here….I ask people where they’re from (meaning ‘where do they live’ or ‘which town or city do you call home’) all the time too. We’re talking here about specifically asking (by implication) an Englishman or woman with black or Asian heritage where their parents or grandparents or great grandparents emigrated to England from. If you go around asking that with that specific meaning all the time then I think that’s a bit odd.

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Offline WhereAngelsPlay

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Re: Thoughts on Shamima Begum?
« Reply #1191 on: March 2, 2024, 05:15:43 pm »
Can I just clarify…and apols for going right off topic here….I ask people where they’re from (meaning ‘where do they live’ or ‘which town or city do you call home’) all the time too. We’re talking here about specifically asking (by implication) an Englishman or woman with black or Asian heritage where their parents or grandparents or great grandparents emigrated to England from. If you go around asking that with that specific meaning all the time then I think that’s a bit odd.

YEEEEEESSSSSSSSS!!!!!!! Sorry we just scored 😂

Pretty much, I don't think I've ever asked anybody where their parents are from unless I'm already a friend.
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Offline west_london_red

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Re: Thoughts on Shamima Begum?
« Reply #1192 on: March 2, 2024, 05:52:11 pm »
We were looking at getting some private tuition for our youngest and first looked at online. The company we decided to take a closer look with offered a free half-hour taster with a tutor they'd hand-picked.

The girl they chose was only young and looked to have south-Asian heritage. I was concerned about her level of experience, as we wanted an actual experienced teacher who taught GCSE.

At the end of the session - and she came across really well, was very likeable - I asked what her background was.

I was mortified when she started with "Well my parents originally came from Bangladesh and..." I had to cut in and clarify I meant her career/teaching experience.

 :-[

(She was a 2nd year Med student, so we didn't end up using her)

Be honest, if she said she was Indian you would have hired her :D

But in all seriousness, that exactly how I answer the question. We’ve spent most of the last 30 odd years telling each other it’s ok to be different in whatever way you are different, and I’m different from the majority of the population of the country because of the colour of my skin, we’re supposed to celebrate and enjoy each other diversity not pretend it doesn’t exist which is sometimes how it can feel (although with the best of intentions as the people posting here are doing it I’m sure).
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