Author Topic: A change in Venezuela?  (Read 48057 times)

Offline 24/7

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #120 on: August 5, 2018, 03:35:09 pm »
No worries mate - it's just that very few of us have experienced the conditions portrayed on the news. It's a fucking shame what's happening there - in fact it's literally a criminal shame - and ordinary people suffer the most while that fat Mario lookalike murdering c*nt just gets fatter and his tash gets bigger and his bank balance grows. It's infuriating. And it's getting worse daily.

Change? Not until he's dead.

Offline Trendisnotdestiny

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #121 on: August 5, 2018, 03:55:47 pm »
No worries mate - it's just that very few of us have experienced the conditions portrayed on the news. It's a fucking shame what's happening there - in fact it's literally a criminal shame - and ordinary people suffer the most while that fat Mario lookalike murdering c*nt just gets fatter and his tash gets bigger and his bank balance grows. It's infuriating. And it's getting worse daily.

Change? Not until he's dead.

FWIW, history is not on Maduro's side, as very few socialist leaders live long enough to spend their resources. 

Castro being a major exception.  Heading back to the Betting, draft league stuff for now, will leave this discussion for a bit.

Cheers.

« Last Edit: August 14, 2018, 02:37:11 pm by Trendisnotdestiny »
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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #122 on: August 5, 2018, 04:51:11 pm »
somehow I don’t think they support this regime because they see it as the lesser of two evils, just need to look up some of the tricks they pull for the elections

If they have memories of a better option, the opposition would not be so fragmented. If there was a clear option that would get majority buy-in, the US and others would intervene. The old regimes were funded by the oil industry. They had their tricks too.

It’s a terrible situation. But I don’t think there are simple solutions.
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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #123 on: August 5, 2018, 04:59:04 pm »
This is the difference between fighting a war with a country who has the world's reserve currency (21Trillion in national debt it never has to pay back to anyone) and a GDP that dwarfs entire continents, let alone countries.  Have you seen the history of Argentinian financial crises led by US backed corporations who keep sticking it to them with debt upon debt?
correct me if I’m wrong here but don’t Goldman Sachs own quite a lot of Venezuelan debt, seem to remember them buying up loads of bonds a while ago so that’s one to keep an eye on

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #124 on: August 5, 2018, 05:42:17 pm »
Maduro is the problem, not America. That is clear to most Venezuelans.
"If you want the world to love you don't discuss Middle Eastern politics" Saul Bellow.

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #125 on: August 5, 2018, 06:08:10 pm »
correct me if I’m wrong here but don’t Goldman Sachs own quite a lot of Venezuelan debt, seem to remember them buying up loads of bonds a while ago so that’s one to keep an eye on

Could very well be... This is where the debt vultures reside, GS.   And I do know it is a tool that used to put pressure on existing regimes to implement different programs (like austerity or privatizations of certain ilk).  I'll check it out.

 Deffo something to keep an eye on!  Well out.
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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #126 on: August 5, 2018, 06:33:53 pm »
Maduro is the problem, not America. That is clear to most Venezuelans.

Not to disagree, but this makes me wonder about a few things. 

I certainly cannot talk for "most Venezuelans" admittedly, since Venezuela is neither my home nor do I have any unique information to share about the majority of its people, but I do know my country pretty well.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States%E2%80%93Venezuela_relations


United States
Despite the continually strained ties between the two governments, 82% of Venezuelans viewed the U.S. positively in 2002, though this view declined down to 62% in 2014 (per the Pew Research Global Attitudes Project).[83] The Gallup Global Leadership Report indicates that as of 2013, 35% of Venezuelans approve of United States' global leadership, and 35% disapprove.[84] The Spring 2017 Global Attitudes Survey by Pew Research Center found that 35% of the Venezuelan population views the United States unfavorable and 47% view it favorably

- Trust in America has fallen for the most part like a Tom Petty song.  And the more recent upsurge is due to their policies working and the deteriorating condition in Venezuela versus any commitment of serious trust for US policies at home or abroad.  This is what happens in desperate times.

A second point that needs to be made is how foreign policy directives changed under G W Bush -- after Chavez came to power in 1999.

Vargas Tragedy 2000
Chavez becomes critical of GW Bush's Foreign Policy 2002
Failed Coup in 2002
Pat Robertson calling for Chavez Assassination in 2005
Expelling 2 US military attaches by Maduro conspiring to overthrow existing gov't (like Chile) 2014

Even more important, there have been plans in the works to remove both of the Venezuelan leaders for some time.


"Despite allegedly waning of Hugo Chavez's aggressive foreign policy due to the sharp drop in oil in the last quarter of 2008, hostility with America continued. "American Corners," (AC) a partnership between the Public Affairs sections of U.S. Embassies worldwide and their host institutions, was said to be an interference in Venezuela. In their book, Imperial Spiderweb: Encyclopedia of Interference and Subversion, Eva Golinger and Frenchman, Riman Mingus, warned that it was one of Washington's secret forms of propaganda, Golinger denouncing AC to the Venezuelan National Assembly as virtual consulates, which are not formally sponsored by the US government, but by an organization, association, school, library or local institution. Additionally, they have not only functioned as a launch pad for a psychological war, but also sought to subvert and violate diplomatic rules. The AC's were alleged to be closely supervised by the State Department"

But obviously, there are many here who only want one conclusion ------>  that's fine.  But we cannot ignore US history in these and other matters, especially when the biggest douchbag on the planet is saying this:

"On August 11, 2017, President Trump said that he is “not going to rule out a military option” to confront the autocratic government of Nicolás Maduro and the deepening crisis in Venezuela.[80] Venezuela’s Defense Minister, Vladimir Padrino López, immediately criticized Trump for his statement, calling it “an act of supreme extremism” and “an act of madness”. The Venezuelan Communications Minister, Ernesto Villegas, said Trump’s words amounted to “an unprecedented threat to national sovereignty”

Even today, we have Trump's strategy on how to deal with dissent - https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/trump-i-%E2%80%98destroy-careers-of-republicans-who-say-bad-things-about-me/ar-BBLuIzF?li=BBnb7Kz

Maduro is not the answer here by any means, but to forget how we have managed central and south America over the last 100 years is a big piece to miss with what is happening on the ground to decent and vulnerable people. 

We have to be honest.  The US does not give a shit about the people of Venezuela, in as much as they are a pawn to change the narrative from something that causes criticism to them (has since 1999) to a state with oil reserves who could come under their influence.

« Last Edit: August 5, 2018, 06:48:13 pm by Trendisnotdestiny »
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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #127 on: August 5, 2018, 07:48:53 pm »

We have to be honest.  The US does not give a shit about the people of Venezuela, in as much as they are a pawn to change the narrative from something that causes criticism to them (has since 1999) to a state with oil reserves who could come under their influence.

I don't know. I'm not American and I don't live there.

But it's possible that you're right. But I don't think many people give a shit about Venezuela. The international Left certainly don't. They cared enormously about Chavez and about an idea. But after a while it was obvious that they didn't care two shits about the Venezuelan people who were suffering, and eventually starving, because that idea was inflicted on them by a despot. 
"If you want the world to love you don't discuss Middle Eastern politics" Saul Bellow.

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #128 on: August 5, 2018, 08:44:12 pm »
I don't know. I'm not American and I don't live there.

But it's possible that you're right. But I don't think many people give a shit about Venezuela. The international Left certainly don't. They cared enormously about Chavez and about an idea. But after a while it was obvious that they didn't care two shits about the Venezuelan people who were suffering, and eventually starving, because that idea was inflicted on them by a despot. 
and it massively failed, which is why they dont like talking about it now (despite fawning over it for years)

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #129 on: August 5, 2018, 09:12:09 pm »
I don't know. I'm not American and I don't live there.

But it's possible that you're right. But I don't think many people give a shit about Venezuela. The international Left certainly don't. They cared enormously about Chavez and about an idea. But after a while it was obvious that they didn't care two shits about the Venezuelan people who were suffering, and eventually starving, because that idea was inflicted on them by a despot.

This is spot on in my estimation.  Survival of their plan (themselves) was elevated to a top priority at the expense of Venezuelan people, like you say causing suffering and starvation. 

It is the perversion of wanting to serve others (help people out of poverty) that is evil here -- selling Venezuelans on one thing and then succumbing to the right's view of them.   It was their responsibility to the people to get it right, clearly they did not.

This means very few people actually care, in positions of power, about suffering and starvation.  In the US, it is similar to this video below, but for the most part the media is owned and these types of direct criticisms are uttered less and less when it comes to US sacrifice zones

Venezuela is not that far off from US Sacrifice Zones: Omakalee (FL), Appalaichia (WV), Pine Ridge (SD), & Camden (NJ)
http://outbreaknewstoday.com/west-virginia-hepatitis-outbreak-now-700-cases-16282/
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/G-49tKzXe2Y" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/G-49tKzXe2Y</a>


 

« Last Edit: August 6, 2018, 02:44:38 pm by Trendisnotdestiny »
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You need to get more wives mate, it fixes everything. Apart from then you have loads of wives, which is a nightmare.  -  Djozer

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #130 on: August 6, 2018, 02:40:05 pm »
Found this today

https://www.alternet.org/grayzone-project/cia-venezuela-us-mike-pompeo-coup-opposition

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/JWiA4kWgUnU" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/JWiA4kWgUnU</a>
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It’s there to remind our lads who they’re playing for and to remind the opposition who they’re playing against! - Bill Shankly

We have everything we need - Jurgen Klopp

You need to get more wives mate, it fixes everything. Apart from then you have loads of wives, which is a nightmare.  -  Djozer

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #131 on: August 20, 2018, 07:01:58 pm »
What the collapse of an economy / finance looks like:

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/el3OlIaUrsU" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/el3OlIaUrsU</a>


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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #132 on: August 21, 2018, 11:04:39 pm »
Massive earthquake as well, 7+ on the Richter scale

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #133 on: August 21, 2018, 11:05:49 pm »
Oh no.... oh no no no...

The last thing those poor people need...
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
W

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #134 on: August 23, 2018, 02:18:58 pm »
Interesting pull Surfer!

Came across this today on the word regime and US Policy.   

Let's be careful here to suggest that criticism of the US is the same thing as advocacy for Maduro ---  The US has been using invisible tactics against every semi leftist to outright leftist leadership in the southern cone of America for centuries.   Nothing new, but this article makes overt what attempts to stay under the surface

https://fair.org/home/a-regime-is-a-government-at-odds-with-the-us-empire/

John Perkins work here is relevant!  Confessions of an Economic Hit Man. 

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/XWuAct1BxHU" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/XWuAct1BxHU</a>
« Last Edit: August 24, 2018, 05:42:45 pm by Alan_X »
THIS IS ANFIELD SIGN:
It’s there to remind our lads who they’re playing for and to remind the opposition who they’re playing against! - Bill Shankly

We have everything we need - Jurgen Klopp

You need to get more wives mate, it fixes everything. Apart from then you have loads of wives, which is a nightmare.  -  Djozer

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #135 on: August 24, 2018, 03:05:28 pm »
THIS IS ANFIELD SIGN:
It’s there to remind our lads who they’re playing for and to remind the opposition who they’re playing against! - Bill Shankly

We have everything we need - Jurgen Klopp

You need to get more wives mate, it fixes everything. Apart from then you have loads of wives, which is a nightmare.  -  Djozer

Offline Alan_X

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #136 on: August 24, 2018, 06:02:00 pm »
Interesting pull Surfer!

Came across this today on the word regime and US Policy.   

Let's be careful here to suggest that criticism of the US is the same thing as advocacy for Maduro ---  The US has been using invisible tactics against every semi leftist to outright leftist leadership in the southern cone of America for centuries.   Nothing new, but this article makes overt what attempts to stay under the surface

https://fair.org/home/a-regime-is-a-government-at-odds-with-the-us-empire/

John Perkins work here is relevant!  Confessions of an Economic Hit Man. 

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/XWuAct1BxHU" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/XWuAct1BxHU</a>

Any independent corroboration for that video? A lot of conspiracy thinking and unsubstantiated joining of dots. No wonder you post some of the stuff you do if that's what you watch. There are real issues with US foreign policy and the old Monroe Doctrine, but it's not some coordinated centralised global plot by faceless corporations employing 'hitmen' and jackals.
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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #137 on: August 24, 2018, 06:48:35 pm »
Any independent corroboration for that video? A lot of conspiracy thinking and unsubstantiated joining of dots. No wonder you post some of the stuff you do if that's what you watch. There are real issues with US foreign policy and the old Monroe Doctrine, but it's not some coordinated centralised global plot by faceless corporations employing 'hitmen' and jackals.

First, Alan I resent the "no wonder you post some of the stuff you do" criticism.  This kind of comment lacks imagination and denigrates the contribution I make.  If you do not like a point I am making then address it at the root of the issue.  Don't go for all-encompassing haymakers on every topic as a means to discredit my posts.  What I write here is neither monolithic in approach nor do I claim victory. Regularly, I engage in self-doubt or criticism of them simultaneously in an effort to improve my arguments from a position of curiosity versus "knowing everything".   
 
Second, I have seen Perkins in person lecture when his book came out, I have taught his book in my course (Confessions of an Economic Hit Man) and I integrate his work into a whole body of literature which includes William Blum, Eduardo Galleano, Naomi Klein and US Government documents released from FOIA.   I am sure I can find a more persuasive video, but I was not intent upon having to prove Perkins' credibility in the thread --- instead I was offering up the notion of CIA assets affecting the internal workings of foreign governments.  Not an outlandish issue, since we have spent months talking about Russian involvement in our elections and it is almost non-existent the analysis of US overt/covert involvement in Venezuela --- which is central to the point of this thread.

I'll grant that Perkins is a bit of an eccentric, new agey kind of spook. His need to out the system is a bit indulgent (as he discusses everything from his own sex life, manipulation into working for a CIA front company Chas T Main, and the anecdotes from his conversations with foreign leaders all over the world.  But, he does provide us information that is useful and not difficult to corroborate.




I might suggest before you make these kinds of judgments, you should read his work or at least see a few free lectures on Youtube with some knowledge beforehand.  But maybe this is how you work --- Er.. Scientifically?

Third, there is nothing conspiratorial about this.  The US government has openly admitted their involvement in many of these events ever since Mossadegh nationalized the oil fields in Iran in the 50's.  And if you did any kind of research on the career of Allen Dulles or his network, you would know the US presence all over the world (military bases, coups, and cold war asset gathering) for decades.  I can point you to entire bibliographies of work that discuss these issues. 

Of course, they do not run a "skeptic's guide to the universe" website -- like the reference you trotted out in Monsanto thread.

Finally, I resent your tone and how you argue. 

It is easy to sit back and make little quips like "Er Science" in the Monsanto thread or ask for more information on Payday lending thread and then not engage.  You do not have to contribute much, but some gruff doubt and paint posters here as somehow deficient, or quit the thread claiming a lack of time and totally ignoring issues that make you uncomfortable or demonstrate ignorance.

And your last sentence is not something I have ever said or even believe. Sad this is what you have to contribute.   

And I never get the feeling that when you ask questions, you want the answer.  You seem to have already formed an opinion - why would anyone respond and be a part of your echo chamber - unless it is a direct attack against person or reason?
« Last Edit: August 24, 2018, 07:14:26 pm by Trendisnotdestiny »
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You need to get more wives mate, it fixes everything. Apart from then you have loads of wives, which is a nightmare.  -  Djozer

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #138 on: August 25, 2018, 01:32:29 am »
Amy Goodman at Democracy Now interviews John Perkins 2010

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/dWo4ZhjdTHg" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/dWo4ZhjdTHg</a>
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We have everything we need - Jurgen Klopp

You need to get more wives mate, it fixes everything. Apart from then you have loads of wives, which is a nightmare.  -  Djozer

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #140 on: December 6, 2018, 12:33:05 pm »
Beyond tragic that. What a mess. Thing is, it's such a beautiful country in many places and in many ways......or was :(

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #141 on: December 6, 2018, 01:13:15 pm »
Beyond tragic that. What a mess. Thing is, it's such a beautiful country in many places and in many ways......or was :(

Surely we are to blame....somehow? Or America? Or George Soros? All this autocracy, corruption, larceny, state brutality and mass starvation can't be the fault of the Chavistas. The Zionists perhaps?
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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #142 on: December 6, 2018, 01:51:19 pm »
Blairites

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #143 on: December 6, 2018, 02:31:10 pm »
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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #144 on: December 6, 2018, 03:42:27 pm »
It's more simple than that and I'm reminded of the old addages around division and rule (invented by the Romans) and Orwell I think it was who said that power corrupts but absolute power corrupts absolutely. It's greed and ego driving tyrants into deceiving their own people.

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #145 on: December 6, 2018, 07:50:24 pm »
It's more simple than that and I'm reminded of the old addages around division and rule (invented by the Romans) and Orwell I think it was who said that power corrupts but absolute power corrupts absolutely. It's greed and ego driving tyrants into deceiving their own people.

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #146 on: December 6, 2018, 08:22:25 pm »

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #147 on: December 7, 2018, 03:48:40 pm »
Rick for the rikes, prick for the pricks

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #148 on: December 7, 2018, 05:59:21 pm »
I remember a time when Corbyn, the unicorn guy, couldn't shut up about the great Venezuelan economy and how it was a model he might follow. He even appeared on a Venezuelan broadcast talking up Chavez and talking down Britain. That's fine. He was bonkers but that's what he wanted to do.

I do think he owes us an explanation now though. But instead of that he has gone totally silent and the only thing he's done, really, is expunge a load of stuff from his website.

This isn't just of academic interest. The unicorn guy is now banking on Brexit, or 'Lexit' or whatever he calls it, and is looking forward to enacting socialism in one country British style. I'm not saying that a Corbyn government would trample on human rights like Chavez did on Venezuela. Our liberal democratic traditions are a hell of a sight stronger than the poor Venezuelans' were. Nor do I expect it would end in the total collapse of the economy and several million people seeking to get residence in Ireland or any other European country. But there are certain parallels between what Corbyn wants to do and what Chavez did. And, certainly, for a long while Corbyn was very forward in making those parallels himself.

So come on 'Jeremy', what's your latest thinking on the Chavez debacle being enacted right now in Venezuela?
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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #149 on: December 7, 2018, 06:39:50 pm »
.... is expunge a load of stuff from his website.

I'm led to believe the young Jones has also been a bit busy recently weeding his own past thinking on such matters too.

But I think you're correct, it would be interesting if not educational to hear of the latest thinking from those who until recently were so vocal in their praise for the great Venezuala experiment especially since they had expressed such admiration for it, though I expect rather than any apology, instead the considered blame for the collapse of the dream will be unequivocally and solely laid at the door of the great Satan and neo liberalism conspiring together, and with an added slice of malevolent meddling by shady International Banking, etc etc.
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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #150 on: December 7, 2018, 06:56:28 pm »
Ah, but in fairness the issue here isn't so much the substance of the belief at the time (Chavez was a proponent of the concept called 'The 3rd Way', which on paper looks great!) - it's more the manner in which that dream/philosophy/tactic/ whateveryoucallit has been............executed.........that looks bad.

If I were a politician looking to improve my image, I'd have distanced myself from the practices behind The 3rd Way a long, long time ago. As it is, the silence from some people is deafening, yes.

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #151 on: December 7, 2018, 11:47:52 pm »
Evo Morales in Bolivia seems to be the new one, got rid of term limits last year and had issues with the human rights groups, much like Chavez did so there’s another one they’re pally with right now who they’ll try to forget ever happened in a few years

This from young owen from four years ago has really aged terribly

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/owen-jones-socialism-s-critics-look-at-venezuela-and-say-we-told-you-so-but-they-are-wrong-9155295.html

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #152 on: December 8, 2018, 09:17:22 am »
What a disaster. It’s horrible - 10% of the population has left, of those left, 90% live in poverty.

I’m astonished that people can hold onto power in the face of it. It’s a massive failure, and wont get any better until that regime is gone. The army is also given perks and has power - they are loyal to Chavismo because of this. So no danger of a coup, at least for now, but they have the army to quash any unrest. There would be more unrest, but imagine going to a protest when you’re starving, and the only way to get food is to queue at a bakery for 4-5hrs a day.

In the meantime your inept government just consolidates its power, and there is no organised ‘opposition’ to speak of.

Something will light this touch paper soon. It’ll end in a nasty civil war. It looks like they’re already going through one, without the fighting, but the effects of economic destruction are the same. It’s a humanitarian crisis and I hope it doesn’t get worse - but it seems like it will.

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #153 on: January 11, 2019, 12:45:51 am »
Well, another six years of that fucking lunatic - how much more of the country can be destroyed in that time? Let's find out.

Anyway, decent article on the Beeb about the state of a nation in freefall. In case you didn't know, three million have left the country. That's incredible. But at the same time, utterly believable.........


How Venezuela's crisis developed and drove out millions of people

Venezuela's economy is in freefall. Hyperinflation, power cuts and shortages of food and medicine are driving millions of Venezuelans out of the country.

And yet the man many blame for the dire state of the nation, Nicolás Maduro, is about to be sworn in as president for another six years.

So what is going on with Venezuela's economy, how did it get to this point, and what have Mr Maduro and his government done to halt the country's decline?

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-36319877

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #154 on: January 13, 2019, 09:02:01 am »
None of that shite here please.

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #155 on: January 15, 2019, 09:03:10 pm »
Well, another six years of that fucking lunatic - how much more of the country can be destroyed in that time? Let's find out.

Anyway, decent article on the Beeb about the state of a nation in freefall. In case you didn't know, three million have left the country. That's incredible. But at the same time, utterly believable.........


How Venezuela's crisis developed and drove out millions of people

Venezuela's economy is in freefall. Hyperinflation, power cuts and shortages of food and medicine are driving millions of Venezuelans out of the country.

And yet the man many blame for the dire state of the nation, Nicolás Maduro, is about to be sworn in as president for another six years.

So what is going on with Venezuela's economy, how did it get to this point, and what have Mr Maduro and his government done to halt the country's decline?

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-36319877

The BBC is an imperialist tool that promotes British/Western interests abroad under the guise of enlightened neutrality. I don't trust a word of what they write when it comes to foreign policy and international relations. The tone of this article is pretty clear: they severely underplay the role of US sanctions.

There's a clear mainstream narrative about Venezuela going around. Given that this concerns 1) an oil-rich country in 2) Latin America, I would be very wary of anything that is reproduced in mainstream media. I don't want sound like a conspiracy theorist or anything, and I'm not at all suggesting the chavistas and Maduro are not to blame -  but the 'left-wing populist ruins entire country' narrative is way too simplistic.

An article I read a couple months ago and enjoyed is the following: https://venezuelablog.org/crude-realities-understanding-venezuelas-economic-collapse/. The author is a long and fierce critic of the Maduro government, and his point is basically that Venezuela is fucked because it cannot import, which was made worse by US sanctions especially now that the oil price picked up slightly. The article deals only with economic matters, and I wish I had something more substantial issues pertaining to international relations involving Venezuela, but the main point remains: take anything to do with Latin America with a pinch of salt.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2019, 09:11:56 pm by Johnny B. Goode »
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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #156 on: January 15, 2019, 09:27:30 pm »
Thank you - but I've also seen the reality - and that was when it was nothing like as bad as it is now! If you don't trust the BBC, do you at least trust the UN? Do you deny that three million refugees is a hugely significant factor in all of this? Venezuela is a proper fucking mess - and the people responsible for it continue to blind or subjugate or outright lie to or bribe or threaten or cajole those who oppose - it's not even about convincing people to vote for them any more, they actually stole the legislature. It's madness. And not believing it just cos it's the Beeb doesn't change the reality.....

....nothing personal against you, mind.

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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #157 on: January 15, 2019, 09:51:28 pm »
Thank you - but I've also seen the reality - and that was when it was nothing like as bad as it is now! If you don't trust the BBC, do you at least trust the UN? Do you deny that three million refugees is a hugely significant factor in all of this? Venezuela is a proper fucking mess - and the people responsible for it continue to blind or subjugate or outright lie to or bribe or threaten or cajole those who oppose - it's not even about convincing people to vote for them any more, they actually stole the legislature. It's madness. And not believing it just cos it's the Beeb doesn't change the reality.....

....nothing personal against you, mind.

It's not just because it's the BBC, and I don't deny that Venezuela is a mess. People don't flee their home country leaving their belongings behind to be homeless somewhere else if things are rosy. I just think it's important to put this crisis into perspective, particularly, as I said, since this concerns a country full of oil in a region that has been fucked over by the US for the last century. What are the underlying interests behind the mainstream narrative? Who is responsible and why? Who stands to gain from which outcome?

Latin America is heading towards a neo-Cold War. Recent elections in Colombia and Brazil returned right-wing populists who won in a context where 'chavismo' and 'Venezuela' became credible insults and strategies to play on people's fears. Brazil, the region's biggest country, elected a president who in his inauguration speech said he would rid the country of 'socialism', and guess who's winning out? Multinationals and big corporations, many of them from the US, that had already been involved in the impeachment of Dilma Rousseff in 2016 (see: http://www.brasilwire.com/dont-call-it-brazilgate/)

I find the situation in Venezuela absolutely disgusting from a 'humane' point of view, as I'm sure you and everyone following the news do too. The problem is that this isn't an excuse to disregard everything else surrounding the political context in Venezuela and Latin America at large. We've been here before: the fear of communism in the 60s plunged our continent into over 20 years of capital-sponsored darkness. I'm fearful that this may happen again, and the discourse around Venezuela isn't reassuring me one bit. There's a world outcry over what's happening there, whilst business-friendly dictatorships are left mostly unquestioned. If the US and the mainstream Anglophone media are in favour or something, there's a high chance that 'something' is a threat to countries in the Global South.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2019, 09:53:55 pm by Johnny B. Goode »
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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #158 on: January 15, 2019, 10:40:44 pm »
That fear of communism was rational. Just as the fear of fascism was rational. Those places were human-rights hell holes.

I can't believe anyone looking in at the self-inflicted mess of Venezuela is talking about "narratives". Chavez was bent on a dictatorship as soon as he won power. Despite being oil rich he and his corrupt cronies somehow ran the economy into the ground. A kleptocracy I suppose you'd call it.
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Re: A change in Venezuela?
« Reply #159 on: January 15, 2019, 11:00:12 pm »
The BBC is an imperialist tool that promotes British/Western interests abroad under the guise of enlightened neutrality. I don't trust a word of what they write when it comes to foreign policy and international relations. The tone of this article is pretty clear: they severely underplay the role of US sanctions.

There's a clear mainstream narrative about Venezuela going around. Given that this concerns 1) an oil-rich country in 2) Latin America, I would be very wary of anything that is reproduced in mainstream media. I don't want sound like a conspiracy theorist or anything, and I'm not at all suggesting the chavistas and Maduro are not to blame -  but the 'left-wing populist ruins entire country' narrative is way too simplistic.

An article I read a couple months ago and enjoyed is the following: https://venezuelablog.org/crude-realities-understanding-venezuelas-economic-collapse/. The author is a long and fierce critic of the Maduro government, and his point is basically that Venezuela is fucked because it cannot import, which was made worse by US sanctions especially now that the oil price picked up slightly. The article deals only with economic matters, and I wish I had something more substantial issues pertaining to international relations involving Venezuela, but the main point remains: take anything to do with Latin America with a pinch of salt.

Did you actually read it?

To say that the policies of Chávez and Maduro are to blame for this collapse is both true and trivial.  Chavismo has been in power for almost twenty years now, so it is obvious that pretty much anything that is happening in Venezuela now – expect perhaps for last month’s earthquake – is the direct or indirect consequence of what it has done while running the country.  But this tells us nothing about the mechanisms through which the country has become poorer and the reasons why we have seen this dramatic worsening emerge only in recent years.

and...

When an economy’s exports fall, that economy’s imports won’t necessarily decline immediately if the economy can borrow or dip into its savings in order to cushion the blow.  That is why countries subject to high terms of trade volatility are well advised to save during boom times.  And that is precisely what Venezuela didn’t do.

On this, the blame falls squarely to the government of Hugo Chávez, who led the economy during the largest external boom in its history and basically spent all of it.
As a result of Chávez’s willingness to pour money into everything – from paying off nationalizations to buying the support of Caribbean countries with cheap oil –  Venezuela ended up in a much more vulnerable position than just about any other oil exporting country when the shock hit.   At the end of 2013, despite a prolonged period of buoyant oil markets that had taken the price of a Venezuelan barrel above $100, Venezuela’s international reserve were only $22bn, enough to pay for just 5 months of imports.  By contrast, Saudi Arabia at the time had accumulated $725bn in reserves covering 5 years of imports.


and...

As we warned previously, these observations should not be taken as decisive proof that sanctions caused the output collapse.  There are many other factors at play in the Venezuelan economy which can also be put forward as explanations. Maduro’s decision to appoint a general with no previous industry experience and the broad-ranging corruption investigation that led to the jailing of 95 industry executives, including two former PDVSA presidents, appear to have caused a paralysis in many of the sector’s professional cadres. The loss of the industry’s specialized human capital, part of the brain drain that accompanies large scale migration exoduses, also contributed to the deterioration of its operational capacity....

There is a bit on the possible impact of US Executive Orders on Venezuelan credit but the warnings of criminality and corruption were just as much of a factor.

Your article is just as damning of the Chavistas in general and Maduro in particular for the destruction of the Venezuelan economy.
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