Topic: Liverpool's Midfield

[LFCDynamic]

On a positive note, anyone remember Can's run yesterday? Very Toure like and what I'd want to see more of. Thought he was good once he came on.

[GrkStav]

Wasn't trying to make this a thread about transfers. I was trying to suggest that all of our combinations in midfield have their weaknesses, some bigger than others. Playing Gerrard and Coutinho in a midfield 3 would make us defensively vulnerable, but attacking and creative. Henderson, Allen, Lucas lacks ability to create, but would probably be our best defensive line up. 

And its not about getting more players, its about getting the right players with the right qualities so our balance in the team is right. We are struggling in attack and defense, that would suggest that somethings wrong in the midfield(not the only reason, but part of the problem). IMO no matter what combination we choose we will struggle in some way.

Fair enough. I am one of those people who wishes for a functional midfield. 'Creativity' is a nice-to-have, to be sure, but I'd rather it were 80-20 functional, dedicated, skilled vs creative. People who can pass and receive passes well, who can get turned easily and  well, who mind their defensive duties, etc.

The midfield you claim would have 'no creativity' would be perfectly good enough for me for some games. For example, vs Real Madrid, or when we need a victory away from home vs a tough opponent. If our creative players cannot press well enough, I'd rather have midfielders who can, together with the CBs, keep it tight and organized, giving the aggressively attack-minded fullbacks and forwards opportunities to do "their thing".

[L666KOP]

Fair enough. I am one of those people who wishes for a functional midfield. 'Creativity' is a nice-to-have, to be sure, but I'd rather it were 80-20 functional, dedicated, skilled vs creative. People who can pass and receive passes well, who can get turned easily and  well, who mind their defensive duties, etc.

The midfield you claim would have 'no creativity' would be perfectly good enough for me for some games. For example, vs Real Madrid, or when we need a victory away from home vs a tough opponent. If our creative players cannot press well enough, I'd rather have midfielders who can, together with the CBs keep it tight and organized, giving the aggressively attack-minded fullbacks and forwards opportunities to do "their thing".

Agree entirely with the substance over style part.
And at the level we are buying they will be players that can play a bit anyway. If we had 3 MF that could zip it about easily it negates the need for players that can beat a man, or flick it over an opponents head, the ball moves quicker than any player ever will.

[GrkStav]

Did anyone notice how Can (understandably) has also caught the "where is Stevie so I can pass the ball to him" little ailment? We have two players (one of whom is Gerrard) in close proximity too often.

And Henderson doing one-half of the Lucas wall-pass deal and forgetting the other half (the part where you have to move and then 'guide' the recipient of your next pass into space)? And he does it with Glen Johnson, of all people.

[leivapool]

Why is Emre Can not a DM? It's his favoured position.

We signed a DM in the summer. His name was Emre Can. Repeat after me.

Not just at you, it's just irritating to hear people going on about how we didn't sign one, when we did.

Can only played DM 5 times last season.  I'm not sure that makes him a DM aged 20 .........not by any stretch of the imagination,  and he looked lost against QPR truth be told.  Looked much much better when he replaced Hendo last night.  Make of that what you will

[L666KOP]

Can only played DM 5 times last season.  I'm not sure that makes him a DM aged 20 .........not by any stretch of the imagination,  and he looked lost against QPR truth be told.  Looked much much better when he replaced Hendo last night.  Make of that what you will

Madrid's lack of midfield helped.

At times yesterday they played a 5-0-5.

There were swathes of grass available to play in.

[Broad Spectrum]

On a positive note, anyone remember Can's run yesterday? Very Toure like and what I'd want to see more of. Thought he was good once he came on.

Funnily enough I remember having a friendly debate with someone on here in the summer about Can's pace. When he gets going he's very similar to Yaya Toure in that he looks virtually impossible to stop.

I was really, really pleased with how he looked last night. 

And I'm not just saying this to try and be positive, but I genuinely believe Markovic is going to develop into a quality player for us, I really do.

[Jookie]

It's not his fault but in our current set up I don't see the point of having Gerrard as the anchor in midfield. Last season he was brilliant there after Xmas. This was when we had Suarez and Sturridge up top and Coutinho and Sterling playing in between the lines. This gave Gerrard loads of options to use his passing range to start attacks. More importantly it gave him space to play in.

Teams had a choice playing against us - play a high back line and condense the space for Gerrard to play in or drop off a play a deeper back line. If teams played a high defensive line we had the pace and movement to kill them with the one pass. If they dropped off it gave Gerrard the opportunity to play further up the pitch and/or gave Coutinho and Sterling more space to play in-between the lines.

Without Sturridge and Suarez teams can push up and play a high line against us safe in the knowledge that our striker isn't going to play on the shoulder of the last defender. It's also compounded by the fact that only Sterling (and occasionally Lallana) from our midfield want to get beyond the striker. Teams push up and condense the space and in turn can put a midfielder on Gerrard and put pressure on him. By condensing the space the likes of Coutinho and Sterling have less space and time to play. The knock on effect is that he look clueless going forward.

On top of this I don't think Gerrard offers the defence enough protection as that anchor in midfield. That was fine last season since his ability to start attacks from deep completely outweighed this. Diminish his ability to influence us offensively and I'm not sure he offers enough in that position.

The problem we have is that we don't have a good defensive midfielder in the squad. We have Lucas who can do a job there but it'd a very brave manager who drops Gerrard and plays Lucas in our current run of form. I think we are in essence waiting for Sturridge to return. His pace and movement will change how teams play against us and in turn hopefully give the likes of Gerrard, Coutinho and Sterling more time and space to influence games.

[Packalacky]

The midfield doesn't provide enough protection to the back four or enough creativity for our main striker. Think the simple reality is that none of our midfielders are even close to a Kroos/Isco/Modric. The gap in quality is so huge it's not even funny, especially when we spent Ł110M just a few months ago. I won't comment of Can as he needs time to adjust to a new league/country/team.

But for me at least, the reality is that:

Lucas is still our best DM, even after a major injury. Can was bought to add competitiveness to position so we'll see how that goes. He isn't as mobile as he was before the injury and that has affected his game a lot. But he is still disciplined and provides more cover to the back four than anyone else in the team.
Henderson is so average. The typical English hard working midfielder that runs around a lot and shouts at people and gets the plaudits for it, ala brave Scott Parker. He's a good option to have on the bench but having him as a cornerstone of our midfield is just asking for trouble. He simply doesn't provide enough going forward or decent cover for the back four. He's good at pressing, but as we aren't using a system that presses from the front, that attribute is not as useful as last year.
Gerrard, our 34 year old captain, and still our most creative midfielder. Unfortunately he is very vulnerable defensively, but going forward he still provides more than anyone else. Side looks unbalanced when he starts, and doesn't create enough changes when he doesn't. Hard to figure out.
Allen, same as Henderson but with better technical ability.
Lallana, our best midfielder. Good going forward and does a decent defensive job. Need to add players that complement his own attributes.

[The 5th Benitle]

Henderson is so average. The typical English hard working midfielder that runs around a lot and shouts at people and gets the plaudits for it, ala brave Scott Parker. He's a good option to have on the bench but having him as a cornerstone of our midfield is just asking for trouble. He simply doesn't provide enough going forward or decent cover for the back four.

Wait, we've gone back in time to 2011?

[Djimi Smicer34]

Henderson is so average. The typical English hard working midfielder that runs around a lot and shouts at people and gets the plaudits for it, ala brave Scott Parker.

Jesus wept, that's terrible comparison.  Then again, you're dismissal of Henderson in general is pretty shocking.  He "runs around a lot and shouts at people"?  What rubbish.

[The 5th Benitle]

Jesus wept, that's terrible comparison.  Then again, you're dismissal of Henderson in general is pretty shocking.  He "runs around a lot and shouts at people"?  What rubbish.

It's the kind of analysis that makes you think that people having a right to an opinion is a very bad thing.

[Packalacky]

Jesus wept, that's terrible comparison.  Then again, you're dismissal of Henderson in general is pretty shocking.  He "runs around a lot and shouts at people"?  What rubbish.

Maybe I'm being a bit harsh on him, but what he does is the minimum that I would expect from any Liverpool midfielder. The tidy passing and pressing, the odd assist and goal, these aren't world class attributes. Henderson is an average player with average stats. He has a place at Liverpool but if we are seriously looking at securing our place in the top four/winning the league, then we'll need better.

[CLOCKSPEED]

On a positive note, anyone remember Can's run yesterday? Very Toure like and what I'd want to see more of. Thought he was good once he came on.

Agreed highlight of match for me and very strange to see a CM of ours running through the middle with the ball

[CLOCKSPEED]

And I'm not just saying this to try and be positive, but I genuinely believe Markovic is going to develop into a quality player for us, I really do.

Now hang on there quite simply as someone posted on here "not as advertised" seen nothing to disagree with that comment yet

[Djimi Smicer34]

Maybe I'm being a bit harsh on him, but what he does is the minimum that I would expect from any Liverpool midfielder. The tidy passing and pressing, the odd assist and goal, these aren't world class attributes. Henderson is an average player with average stats. He has a place at Liverpool but if we are seriously looking at securing our place in the top four/winning the league, then we'll need better.

He needs to score and be involved in more goals but the progress he's made in nearly every other area over the past two years has been remarkable and he's still young enough and has the required attitude to improve further.  Comparing him to Scott Parker and saying he runs about a bit and shouts at his team-mates does him a massive disservice to say the least.  Henderson is not an average player anymore. 

[scumbagcollege]

Our only really creative midfielder is Gerrard, but as defensive midfielder i'm not sure that he offers the protection and control we need in that position. Henderson has a lot of qualities, but creativity is not one of them. Same goes for Allen. I would have Henderson in my midfield any day though, and i think he has the potential to add more goals and assists to his game. Lucas is in my opinion not good enough after his injury, and offers nothing on the ball. Thats why a midfield 3 with them would lack in creativity, even though it might be defensively the best we could offer right now.

Eh? That Lucas Hendo Allen midfield was part of a team that scored 10 goals in 4 games, three of them away to Spurs, City and Chelsea (dont forget Raheems 'offside' and Eto's penalty area assault too).
We were without Sturridge and Gerrard for those games too.

[Roger Federer]

The midfield doesn't provide enough protection to the back four or enough creativity for our main striker. Think the simple reality is that none of our midfielders are even close to a Kroos/Isco/Modric.

I thought the defence were quite well protected yesterday, against a brilliant side. Not every goal conceded is the fault of the midfield, although you'd think that reading on here. The first was a brilliant piece of play, extremly difficult to defend against but, not sure what the midfield did wrong there really. Neither for the second or third.

Also, when taking about protection and the game yesterday, I fail, again, to understand the talk of DMs and the like (not saying you specifically suggest we do need one). Modric and Kroos are hardly your typical DMs. What sets them apart, and what was evident yesterday, is their movement, first touch and passing. Compared to both Henderson and Allen (who I thought really struggled with the basics yesterday), everything goes quicker, the touch is more assured, the decions making is faster and the abilty to keep ball and calm things down much greater. There was really a noticable difference in quality there, I agree with that part of your post,. The midfielder closest in qualty yesterday was Gerrard, but he was too alone in the middle.

One positive was Coutinho's return to form, along with Sterling our best player by some distance. Hope we play him a bit deeper again, to gain some much needed guile, passing and dribbling ability to the midfield, and give him the chance to really make that role his own. Wouldn't mind a diamond with Lallana at the tip (he's more of a goal threat so prefer him higher up the pitch than Coutinho), and Sterling as a striker until Sturridge is back.

[Walshy nMe®]

The midfield doesn't provide enough protection to the back four

I think you have hit the nail on the head.  I just posted this in the defence thread, but I don't think Gerrard offers any protection at the moment, teams are just streaming through our midfield.

He only attempted TWO tackles in 90 minutes last night, winning one of them.  For our defensive midfielder, I don't think that is anywhere near enough.

http://www.fourfourtwo.com/statszone/5-2014/matches/782739/player-stats/1814/3_DEFENCE_01#tabs-wrapper-anchor

[Shaved Crossbar]

Henderson compared to Scott Parker

RAWK never fails

[Upinsmoke]

When DS is back I'd look at the 442 diamond with Joe Allen at the base as a long term thing.

[The 5th Benitle]

Henderson compared to Scott Parker

RAWK never fails

One person on RAWK, you mean.

[Giono]

On a positive note, anyone remember Can's run yesterday? Very Toure like and what I'd want to see more of. Thought he was good once he came on.

Can did look good, but RM took their foot off the pedal. I do think he has potential, but 2nd half last night could be a bit deceiving.

[Wernerred]

Last night, even during that good spell early on, highlighted some weaknesses of Henderson and Allen. The former can´t turn on the ball. His back to goal play is tragic for a box to box midfielder. It leads to slowing down our built up, choosing wrong passing options and it seeds a nervousness into the side.

Allen can do this. He always receives a ball on half turn so can´t be easily pressed into trouble. Joes problem is all mental. I´ve been pulled out for this claim many times but it was all there to see last night, again. The number of poor first touches and bad passes was ridiculous. And it has nothing to do with ability as he has shown, when on song, how technically great player he is. He just doesnt trust himself enough, hes scared on the big stages, and then just goes into his shell like in the first half yesterday and it all falls apart, even his pressing and movement.

You can talk about work rate, quickness, "creativity" of these two in comparison with Lucas all night, but without ability to do the right things in tight spaces under pressure - no matter which side of the pitch youre facing - and a mental strenght to actually execute it in Allen case - you´ll always look vulnerable, esp. against intelligent side like Madrid. 180% vision, and confidence. Could it be trained, coached, or improved?

[Loo Pan]

I think the best combination is going to vary depending on opposition standard, and whether we're home or away.

But we have to find the combination that gives more protection for the back four, and more control of the game in the centre of the park.

If that means Gerrard sits out occasionally, then so be it.

[Mutton Geoff]

Ball, Harvey Kendall,























oh shit wrong forum

[SerbianScouser]

Really disappointed last night with the performances of Gerrard, hendo and Allen. I thought Coutinho was the our only midfielder out of the 4 who wasn`t technically short and who showed how you do it against the press with the drop of the shoulder and many other tricks that buy you that half a yard of space to keep the ball.

You can not go away to W.Ham and Qpr and not be able to string 2 passes together. You will know we are a good team when we go away to a random PL ground and dominate possession with 70-80%, pin the teams back not in their own half but their own box - that`s when we`ll know we are ready to have a better go at elite european teams.

There is this sport within football that`s called `keepball`. It is essential if you want to compete with the 4 elite european teams that are in a league of their own. For that you need masters of passing. It was my belief for some time with 34-year old Gerrard and Henderson we don`t have enough quality to compete against european elite midfields with or without the ball. We have a DM that can`t win the ball back, doesn`t anticipate anything, can`t play under any pressure whatsoever and Hendo on the other hand in his 3rd year under Rodgers still takes 3 touches to control the ball, still doesn`t receive passes on the half-turn.

They can still do the decent job as they are in this league as we`ve seen last season but we don`t want just to be decent PL and European team we want to be good enough to compete with european elite. With the type of players Gerrard and Hendo are it`ll never happen for them not being good enough technically to pass around opposition`s pressing.

[Anywhichwayicant]

In desperate need of two top midfielders.


I don't care who we were playing last night, the midfield is way below an acceptable standard.

[Obviously]

Eh? That Lucas Hendo Allen midfield was part of a team that scored 10 goals in 4 games, three of them away to Spurs, City and Chelsea (dont forget Raheems 'offside' and Eto's penalty area assault too).
We were without Sturridge and Gerrard for those games too.

5 of those goals where against Spurs, 3 of the goals came after spurs went down to 10 men. Without that game its 5-4 in goal difference. 3 goals came against Cardiff, the team that were relegated and came last. We lost the 2 matches against Chelsea and City 2-1.

I dont think you can use that as evidence that its a midfield that that works. Henderson of the leash attacking and a top 3 of Sterling, Suarez and Coutinho creating most of our goals. The way we are setting up the team we need more creativity in midfield.

One solution could be to play 4-2-3-1 and play Lallana, Coutinho, Sterling and Balotelli and use the full backs more to get around kind of like how Man City play. City is a team who has a defensively solid midfield, but lack creativity in the midfield when using Fernando, Fernandinho and Yaya. And they are also struggling in europe.

[redmark]

One solution could be to play 4-2-3-1 and play Lallana, Coutinho, Sterling and Balotelli and use the full backs more to get around kind of like how Man City play. City is a team who has a defensively solid midfield, but lack creativity in the midfield when using Fernando, Fernandinho and Yaya. And they are also struggling in europe.

I think that's clearly what we've been trying to do for most of the season, injuries allowing; the switch to 4231 to get an extra creative player in behind the striker (thus replacing Suarez with two players in attacking areas, not one). It's not clicked yet, and the 2 behind hasn't yet worked consistently well.

[rscanderlech]

Yesterday finally exposed to everyone what I've been thinking for a long time, even when we were doing so well last season in the PL: that our midfield was overrated.

There was an impression that our midfield was flawed in terms of defensive protection but great at controlling games in possession and in being creative. With all due respect, you could see the vast technical inferiority of our Henderson and Allen compared with the opposition's Kroos (and Modric). At some point we do need to sign a CM who is seriously good and be willing to pay serious money for it.

I don't mean to condemn Henderson and Allen, who have been good players for us - and Henderson is quite vital to our team - but we have to be realistic. They are no Mascherano or Alonso or young Gerrard. Coutinho is the exception, and he was our best player, but you could see the difference in age between him and most of Real's midfielders

We were outclassed technically, and I don't see any young CM ready to come in who is of that kind of potential (that includes Can, who btw can end up a great player too). Rossiter's quite young...

[L666KOP]

I think that's clearly what we've been trying to do for most of the season, injuries allowing; the switch to 4231 to get an extra creative player in behind the striker (thus replacing Suarez with two players in attacking areas, not one). It's not clicked yet, and the 2 behind hasn't yet worked consistently well.

Won't work because we have to play Gerrard.

End of conversation.

[rscanderlech]

In desperate need of two top midfielders.


I don't care who we were playing last night, the midfield is way below an acceptable standard.

I'm not sure about 'desperate' need of two. Desperate need of one, for sure. We are not Chelsea that we can just go out and get two 'top' guys, but one is definitely needed. And, frankly, we can afford it this year.

[redmark]

Won't work because we have to play Gerrard.

End of conversation.

Tell Rodgers, not me. And 'end of...' is always such a great response .

[L666KOP]

Tell Rodgers, not me. And 'end of...' is always such a great response .

It's the only response in this case though ?

4231 will never work with Gerrard.

It won't work with Balotelli either, but Sturridge would do it if fit.

[Bolrick]

Actually there is no one answer to thread starter's question.

We can't have one group of midfield combination always starting regardless of the opposition (this is why Rodgers is finding it tough at the moment....it seems he does not find it comfortable in rotating the team according to the opposition).

For me....against weaker oppositions at home...I would play Henderson, Lallana and Gerrard.
Against tough teams away...I will play with Lucas, Allen and Henderson.

[L666KOP]

Actually there is no one answer to thread starter's question.

We can't have one group of midfield combination always starting regardless of the opposition (this is why Rodgers is finding it tough at the moment....it seems he does not find it comfortable in rotating the team according to the opposition).

For me....against weaker oppositions at home...I would play Henderson, Lallana and Gerrard.
Against tough teams away...I will play with Lucas, Allen and Henderson.

You're basically retiring Stevie though.

Brendan needs to do quite a bit of thinking, he may have to invent a system to get Gerrard in it.

Our problem as regards this is that Stevie hasn't the legs to play in an ideal Brendan side, but he's better than most in every department barring stamina.

It's a tough one for sure.

The games most would have Gerrard playing in are the ones he'd want to rest for, and play the ones we don't think he can.
 

[paddysour]

I think you have hit the nail on the head.  I just posted this in the defence thread, but I don't think Gerrard offers any protection at the moment, teams are just streaming through our midfield.

He only attempted TWO tackles in 90 minutes last night, winning one of them.  For our defensive midfielder, I don't think that is anywhere near enough.

http://www.fourfourtwo.com/statszone/5-2014/matches/782739/player-stats/1814/3_DEFENCE_01#tabs-wrapper-anchor

Against QPR in the first half we had Henderson and Can as the DMs, and that was as bad as any defensive display I've seen from us under Rodgers. And it had the extra knock on that neither of them could deal with being pressed the way Gerrard can

[Coolie High]

Really disappointed last night with the performances of Gerrard, hendo and Allen. I thought Coutinho was the our only midfielder out of the 4 who wasn`t technically short and who showed how you do it against the press with the drop of the shoulder and many other tricks that buy you that half a yard of space to keep the ball.

You can not go away to W.Ham and Qpr and not be able to string 2 passes together. You will know we are a good team when we go away to a random PL ground and dominate possession with 70-80%, pin the teams back not in their own half but their own box - that`s when we`ll know we are ready to have a better go at elite european teams.

There is this sport within football that`s called `keepball`. It is essential if you want to compete with the 4 elite european teams that are in a league of their own. For that you need masters of passing. It was my belief for some time with 34-year old Gerrard and Henderson we don`t have enough quality to compete against european elite midfields with or without the ball. We have a DM that can`t win the ball back, doesn`t anticipate anything, can`t play under any pressure whatsoever and Hendo on the other hand in his 3rd year under Rodgers still takes 3 touches to control the ball, still doesn`t receive passes on the half-turn.

They can still do the decent job as they are in this league as we`ve seen last season but we don`t want just to be decent PL and European team we want to be good enough to compete with european elite. With the type of players Gerrard and Hendo are it`ll never happen for them not being good enough technically to pass around opposition`s pressing.

Gerrards gone to the top of European football and back, i don't think his technique is in question, he made 86 passes yesterday, with a passing completion of 94%. Its his work going back that worries me, and how easy Madrid found it to penetrate our midfield, his passing though was crisp and conservative, that wasn't the problem.

[wemmick]

I'd like to see how Can, Henderson and Coutinho works as a midfield three. Could be dominant.