Author Topic: Bomb incident at Liverpool Womens Hospital  (Read 13782 times)

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Re: Bomb incident at Liverpool Womens Hospital
« Reply #280 on: November 17, 2021, 05:16:55 am »
Maybe he thought converting to Christianity was a good way of integrating and starting his new life here.


Or maybe he saw things or did things in the name of Islam that he wanted to get away from, and the Christian idea of salvation appealed to him. Maybe those things caught up with him. He probably didn't get sectioned for 6 months for nothing.

Maybe the police will find some clues why he did what he did.
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Re: Bomb incident at Liverpool Womens Hospital
« Reply #281 on: November 17, 2021, 05:19:18 am »
This for me is the real story.

He had come into contact with them through Liverpool Cathedral where Christian volunteers worked with predominantly Iranian asylum seekers who were taking part in a conversion course, known as Alpha.

Mr Hitchcott said they had not seen Al Swealmeen in the four subsequent years after he left their home.

"He wanted to be a Christian. And he liked what he heard about salvation by faith. And that's what we taught him," said Mr Hitchcott.



Either someone has a legitimate reason to be granted asylum or they don't. Converting to a different religion should have no bearing on whether someone should be granted asylum.

Converting to a religion that's a minority in their home country would be relevant though? They can say since they're now Christian, if they go back home to an Islamic country, they'll be persecuted.

Again, like others have said, not saying that every potential asylum seeker who converts does it for this reason. But you can't really blame them for trying everything they can to stay.
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Re: Bomb incident at Liverpool Womens Hospital
« Reply #282 on: November 17, 2021, 09:32:32 am »
Predictably, Himmler Patel is exploiting the bombing to criticise the asylum system and have a dig at the legal sector who, you know, do their job in trying to ensure the law is followed by a vindictive and quasi-racist government that relies on a nasty brand of nationalist-populism and xenophobia to bolster its electoral appeal amongst a certain [sadly substantial] section of the population.

What she's being to have said...

Quote
A whole sort of professional legal services industry has based itself on rights of appeal, going to the courts day-in day-out at the expense of the taxpayers through legal aid. That is effectively what we need to change.

...should send shivers. She's essentially saying that she wants to curtail the right of appeal* for asylum seekers who have their applications initially declined. Worth noting that between 2016 and 2018, 43% of appeals saw the initial rejection decision overturned (https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/resources/briefings/migration-to-the-uk-asylum/) so it's clear the initial process can be wrong too often and needs a right of appeal.

Annoyingly, you just know there'll be electoral support for 'cracking down' on the asylum system.


* bit ironic when her and her government were seeking to drive through changes to the Parliamentary Standards rules because they said a lack of a right to appeal was intrinsically unjust
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Offline Zeb

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Re: Bomb incident at Liverpool Womens Hospital
« Reply #283 on: November 17, 2021, 09:36:25 am »
Contrast between Patel trying to stoke up anger against people and the religious, political, and community leaders in Liverpool coming together to say 'don't target others for scapegoating' is pretty stark.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-59304800
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Re: Bomb incident at Liverpool Womens Hospital
« Reply #284 on: November 17, 2021, 09:45:25 am »
Predictably, Himmler Patel is exploiting the bombing to criticise the asylum system and have a dig at the legal sector who, you know, do their job in trying to ensure the law is followed by a vindictive and quasi-racist government that relies on a nasty brand of nationalist-populism and xenophobia to bolster its electoral appeal amongst a certain [sadly substantial] section of the population.

What she's being to have said...

...should send shivers. She's essentially saying that she wants to curtail the right of appeal* for asylum seekers who have their applications initially declined. Worth noting that between 2016 and 2018, 43% of appeals saw the initial rejection decision overturned (https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/resources/briefings/migration-to-the-uk-asylum/) so it's clear the initial process can be wrong too often and needs a right of appeal.

Annoyingly, you just know there'll be electoral support for 'cracking down' on the asylum system.


* bit ironic when her and her government were seeking to drive through changes to the Parliamentary Standards rules because they said a lack of a right to appeal was intrinsically unjust

There is nothing wrong with the appeals process and everyone should have the opportunity for their case to be heard by a judge (or judges) in the tribunals. There are huge issues with the legal aid cuts which have made it so much harder for those without money to step through the government's increasingly complex hurdles. It's highly ironic that she mentions legal aid when there's barely any of it left (thanks to her Government).

The one issue of immigration law that needs attention is judicial review (and I say this having worked in it for 4 years) which is misused extensively in the immigration context. An industry of lawyers DOES exist to encourage those at the end of the leave to remain process to file judicial review claims challenging their refusal as an option of last resort, whether or not there is any merit in the claim. Whilst the JR is live (and it usually takes 6 months to a year to resolve) then the applicant remains in the UK.

After 6-12 months the applicant has lost thousands of pounds to a feckless lawyer, who has often promised them that they have a case, and is then removed from the UK. Significant public funds are spent on lawyers to defend the pointless claim, and judges/the court system to process it, which could better be spent on almost anything. The only person who "wins" is the applicant's dodgy lawyer.

This is NOT to say that judicial review doesn't play a vital role in safeguarding against unlawful or terrible immigration decisions - it does. But it's taken advantage of to a ridiculous extent at significant cost to the public and to the ultimate detriment of thousands of individuals who are lied to about their prospects and lose a load of money.

Sorry, this is a bit of a digression really ;D I don't want to detract from the main point which is PP's attempts to link this terror attack to immigration or, worse, asylum seekers.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2021, 09:52:20 am by JerseyKloppite »

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Re: Bomb incident at Liverpool Womens Hospital
« Reply #285 on: November 17, 2021, 09:53:25 am »
That being said, the asylum system across the developed world is fucked.

And it's been fucked by people who don't need asylum - predominantly 'economic migrants' who just want a better life - nefariously exploiting the system. It creates such a logjam that the system isn't able to function as it was intended. And genuine asylum seekers are not just failed by the system but demonised by populations due to the huge numbers of bogus asylum applicants.

How to address the issue of stopping economic migrants from destroying the system is such a difficult problem to solve, though. On the one hand, I won't criticise anyone for wanting to improve their lives, especially when images of shiny shit and extravagance from 'the West' are beamed around the world constantly. But then, life is a lottery that deals many different hands; some good, some bad, some downright fucking awful - whether that's lifespan, looks, intelligence, disability... or where you happen to have been born. And the 'West' - large parts of it already overcrowded and unable to be self-sufficient - cannot absorb millions of people who want a slice of Western life for themselves. But then, a large chunk of the wealth within the 'West' is derived from the exploitation of natural resources and people from the rest of the world, so it could be argued there's a moral responsibility to assist.

You could go on and on making arguments for either side (like how, in too many 'developing nations' to much of the wealth generated is hoarded by a small number of people, through a mix of corruption and archaic 'tribal' mentalities; but then, it is the banking systems of the 'West' that facilitate them being able to move that money into untraceable assets)

The upshot is that chronic economic imbalance both between developed and developing countries, and within the developing world, creates an environment where economic migration will always be a huge thing.

And just wait until the growing impacts of climate change really ramp up human migration.

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Re: Bomb incident at Liverpool Womens Hospital
« Reply #286 on: November 17, 2021, 09:54:59 am »
Does Patel not get that when she panders to these



What they think when they see her face?

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Re: Bomb incident at Liverpool Womens Hospital
« Reply #287 on: November 17, 2021, 09:58:19 am »
That being said, the asylum system across the developed world is fucked.

And it's been fucked by people who don't need asylum - predominantly 'economic migrants' who just want a better life - nefariously exploiting the system. It creates such a logjam that the system isn't able to function as it was intended. And genuine asylum seekers are not just failed by the system but demonised by populations due to the huge numbers of bogus asylum applicants.

How to address the issue of stopping economic migrants from destroying the system is such a difficult problem to solve, though. On the one hand, I won't criticise anyone for wanting to improve their lives, especially when images of shiny shit and extravagance from 'the West' are beamed around the world constantly. But then, life is a lottery that deals many different hands; some good, some bad, some downright fucking awful - whether that's lifespan, looks, intelligence, disability... or where you happen to have been born. And the 'West' - large parts of it already overcrowded and unable to be self-sufficient - cannot absorb millions of people who want a slice of Western life for themselves. But then, a large chunk of the wealth within the 'West' is derived from the exploitation of natural resources and people from the rest of the world, so it could be argued there's a moral responsibility to assist.

You could go on and on making arguments for either side (like how, in too many 'developing nations' to much of the wealth generated is hoarded by a small number of people, through a mix of corruption and archaic 'tribal' mentalities; but then, it is the banking systems of the 'West' that facilitate them being able to move that money into untraceable assets)

The upshot is that chronic economic imbalance both between developed and developing countries, and within the developing world, creates an environment where economic migration will always be a huge thing.

And just wait until the growing impacts of climate change really ramp up human migration.



Can you back up your claim that asylum seekers are predominantly economic migrants?
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Re: Bomb incident at Liverpool Womens Hospital
« Reply #288 on: November 17, 2021, 10:06:02 am »
Can you back up your claim that asylum seekers are predominantly economic migrants?

I wouldn't agree that asylum seekers are predominantly economic migrants (and I'm not sure it would ever be possible to prove that even if you suspected it). What I will say is that "the system", such as it is in the UK at least, suffers from a lack of resource, bloated costs and significant delay due in part to claims made by economic migrants who often have no hope of success due to the UK's increasing movement towards very restrictive immigration law. And this has a significant adverse impact on genuine asylum seekers.

And this isn't to criticise economic migrants who have every right to seek a better life for themselves in the UK - but as I said above, the issue is with dodgy lawyers who are capitalising on people's situations to make money.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2021, 10:10:01 am by JerseyKloppite »

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Re: Bomb incident at Liverpool Womens Hospital
« Reply #289 on: November 17, 2021, 10:07:33 am »
I wouldn't agree that asylum seekers are predominantly economic migrants (and I'm not sure it would ever be possible to prove that even if you suspected it). What I will say is that "the system", such as it is in the UK at least, suffers from a lack of resource, bloated costs and significant delay due in part to claims made by economic migrants who often have no hope of success due to the UK's increasing movement towards very restrictive immigration law). And this has a significant adverse impact on genuine asylum seekers.

I wouldn't agree either. 
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Re: Bomb incident at Liverpool Womens Hospital
« Reply #290 on: November 17, 2021, 10:08:14 am »
Can you back up your claim that asylum seekers are predominantly economic migrants?


I said that those people who don't need asylum are predominantly 'economic migrants'.

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Re: Bomb incident at Liverpool Womens Hospital
« Reply #291 on: November 17, 2021, 10:09:13 am »
I wouldn't agree that asylum seekers are predominantly economic migrants (and I'm not sure it would ever be possible to prove that even if you suspected it). What I will say is that "the system", such as it is in the UK at least, suffers from a lack of resource, bloated costs and significant delay due in part to claims made by economic migrants who often have no hope of success due to the UK's increasing movement towards very restrictive immigration law). And this has a significant adverse impact on genuine asylum seekers.


Which was exactly my point.
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Re: Bomb incident at Liverpool Womens Hospital
« Reply #292 on: November 17, 2021, 10:10:03 am »

I said that those people who don't need asylum are predominantly 'economic migrants'.



Ok - but your statement didn't really make that clear.  You also used the term "huge numbers of bogus Asylum applicants"
« Last Edit: November 17, 2021, 10:12:40 am by Millie »
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Offline JerseyKloppite

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Re: Bomb incident at Liverpool Womens Hospital
« Reply #293 on: November 17, 2021, 10:14:05 am »

Which was exactly my point.

It's difficult. If you're an unscrupulous immigration lawyer, whose case are you going to try to take forward - the economic migrant who can pay your fees but probably has no hope of success, or the genuine asylum seeker with no money and (due to cuts) no access to legal aid?

Unsurprisingly it's often the former, which as I said helps no-one but the lawyer. The economic migrant ends up facing removal anyway but is thousands of pounds worse off, and the asylum seeker doesn't get the support they need to properly make their asylum claim in a system which presents huge challenges. The public end up paying money to defend a meritless claim from the economic migrant and the courts end up backlogged.

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Re: Bomb incident at Liverpool Womens Hospital
« Reply #294 on: November 17, 2021, 10:26:58 am »
The converting to Christianity has been a scam for years, are people really denying it happens ?
My youngest sister is a recently retired solicitor and she switched from criminal to asylum cases years ago as it was so lucrative, she hated it but it paid well and yes she encouraged them to blatantly lie, home country, sexual orientation, born again Christian whatever it took to keep the appeals going and the money rolling in.

The one thing they all do which should be a red flag but isn't, is destroy all their documentation, again this is in the standard playbook that law firms use. If you are genuine why would you not want to prove who you are and where you are from ?

My sister has recently - just before the pandemic - bought herself a 450,000 euro place in Portugal to retire to, she already has a £850,000 house on the Wirral (be worth well over a million now) and paid a significant deposit for both her privately educated kids for a house each.
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Re: Bomb incident at Liverpool Womens Hospital
« Reply #295 on: November 17, 2021, 10:38:56 am »
Ok - but your statement didn't really make that clear.  You also used the term "huge numbers of bogus Asylum applicants"


I was also talking about 'across the developed world'. It's not just the UK that has issues.
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Re: Bomb incident at Liverpool Womens Hospital
« Reply #296 on: November 17, 2021, 10:46:21 am »
Police say he had been planning the attack since April…

This was no spur of the moment event….
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Re: Bomb incident at Liverpool Womens Hospital
« Reply #297 on: November 17, 2021, 11:10:09 am »
Predictably, Himmler Patel is exploiting the bombing to criticise the asylum system and have a dig at the legal sector who, you know, do their job in trying to ensure the law is followed by a vindictive and quasi-racist government that relies on a nasty brand of nationalist-populism and xenophobia to bolster its electoral appeal amongst a certain [sadly substantial] section of the population.

What she's being to have said...

...should send shivers. She's essentially saying that she wants to curtail the right of appeal* for asylum seekers who have their applications initially declined. Worth noting that between 2016 and 2018, 43% of appeals saw the initial rejection decision overturned (https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/resources/briefings/migration-to-the-uk-asylum/) so it's clear the initial process can be wrong too often and needs a right of appeal.

Annoyingly, you just know there'll be electoral support for 'cracking down' on the asylum system.


* bit ironic when her and her government were seeking to drive through changes to the Parliamentary Standards rules because they said a lack of a right to appeal was intrinsically unjust

I find the faux outrage of using "tax payers" money quite sickening considering what theyve done.  She is evil to the core
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Re: Bomb incident at Liverpool Womens Hospital
« Reply #298 on: November 17, 2021, 11:12:41 am »
And this isn't to criticise economic migrants who have every right to seek a better life for themselves in the UK
No, they don’t.  There are routes for economic migrants.  If they choose to try to lie their way through the asylum system instead, they deserve criticism.  They’re not children.

Btw this quote jumped out at me this morning: ”The year before Swealmeen converted, the Rev Pete Wilcox, a former Dean of Liverpool, said: ‘I can’t think of a single example of somebody who already had British citizenship converting here with us from Islam to Christianity.’”.  I was well aware of the sham conversion route, but had never considered it from that angle before.

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Re: Bomb incident at Liverpool Womens Hospital
« Reply #299 on: November 17, 2021, 11:19:27 am »
Maybe he thought converting to Christianity was a good way of integrating and starting his new life here.

Or maybe he saw things or did things in the name of Islam that he wanted to get away from, and the Christian idea of salvation appealed to him. Maybe those things caught up with him. He probably didn't get sectioned for 6 months for nothing.

Maybe the police will find some clues why he did what he did.
This is purely anecdotal but I'm friends with an Iranian Brit whose parents sought asylum in the UK (around 30 years ago, to be clear). She was telling me earlier this year that her mum was never big on islam (certainly not zealously and publicly, as wasn't uncommon around the period they needed to leave Iran), but tried out local churches and church groups as a way of getting to meet people and take part in a community.

She said her mum never gave any indication that she was on board with christianity (or any organised religion), or seeking any conversion. I don't believe it was anything to do with applications to settle here either, as my friend would have said if so. The impression she gave was more of what you've said in your first line above.

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Re: Bomb incident at Liverpool Womens Hospital
« Reply #300 on: November 17, 2021, 11:43:14 am »
No, they don’t.  There are routes for economic migrants.  If they choose to try to lie their way through the asylum system instead, they deserve criticism.  They’re not children.

Btw this quote jumped out at me this morning: ”The year before Swealmeen converted, the Rev Pete Wilcox, a former Dean of Liverpool, said: ‘I can’t think of a single example of somebody who already had British citizenship converting here with us from Islam to Christianity.’”.  I was well aware of the sham conversion route, but had never considered it from that angle before.

If you'll read my post, you'll see I'm not talking about that at all. I'm talking about economic migrants who are seeking leave as economic migrants. And they do have every right to do that.

The point I was making was that THEY are encouraged to appeal, or file judicial reviews, or make claim after claim at all costs, by unscrupulous lawyers, and THAT causes delay, backlog and expense. I'm not talking about "fake" asylum seekers, of which I'm sure they are some. But most applications for leave to remain are not based on asylum, most are based on any number of other factors be they economic or human rights based, and huge numbers of these are hopeless but are still encouraged by lawyers out solely to make money.

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Re: Bomb incident at Liverpool Womens Hospital
« Reply #301 on: November 17, 2021, 11:49:18 am »
It did occur to me afterwards that you could have meant that, so I did go back and read again carefully, but the way I took it is much closer to what you actually wrote so I left it up.

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Re: Bomb incident at Liverpool Womens Hospital
« Reply #302 on: November 17, 2021, 12:25:38 pm »
This is purely anecdotal but I'm friends with an Iranian Brit whose parents sought asylum in the UK (around 30 years ago, to be clear). She was telling me earlier this year that her mum was never big on islam (certainly not zealously and publicly, as wasn't uncommon around the period they needed to leave Iran), but tried out local churches and church groups as a way of getting to meet people and take part in a community.

She said her mum never gave any indication that she was on board with christianity (or any organised religion), or seeking any conversion. I don't believe it was anything to do with applications to settle here either, as my friend would have said if so. The impression she gave was more of what you've said in your first line above.

Well if you show yourself to be a decent person who is valuable to a community, then odds are that community will want you to stick around. Church work isn't all about prayer groups and bible classes, but it's a good way to meet the dedicated people in the community and learn what's what.

I know a lady at SFX church who often meets refugees who have been sent up from London to get paper work before returning back. She meets them at Line Street, takes them through town to the offices, waits as the paper work is processed, and perhaps gets them something to eat before seeing them off.
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Re: Bomb incident at Liverpool Womens Hospital
« Reply #303 on: November 17, 2021, 12:53:50 pm »
Predictably, Himmler Patel is exploiting the bombing to criticise the asylum system and have a dig at the legal sector who, you know, do their job in trying to ensure the law is followed by a vindictive and quasi-racist government that relies on a nasty brand of nationalist-populism and xenophobia to bolster its electoral appeal amongst a certain [sadly substantial] section of the population.

What she's being to have said...

...should send shivers. She's essentially saying that she wants to curtail the right of appeal* for asylum seekers who have their applications initially declined. Worth noting that between 2016 and 2018, 43% of appeals saw the initial rejection decision overturned (https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/resources/briefings/migration-to-the-uk-asylum/) so it's clear the initial process can be wrong too often and needs a right of appeal.

Annoyingly, you just know there'll be electoral support for 'cracking down' on the asylum system.


* bit ironic when her and her government were seeking to drive through changes to the Parliamentary Standards rules because they said a lack of a right to appeal was intrinsically unjust
If the UK government had refused her parents' entry into the UK in 1972 as they fled the Idi Armin regime in Uganda she wouldn't even be in the position she is in now.  You would think she would have a little empathy with asylum seekers, although as Uganda is part of the Commonwealth maybe they had a right to settle here.

She's an evil bullying bitch though whichever way you dress it up
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Re: Bomb incident at Liverpool Womens Hospital
« Reply #304 on: November 17, 2021, 03:46:05 pm »
Heavy police presence in Kensington this afternoon including a bomb squad as they search a house. The cordon has just been moved back a significant distance after the arrival of the bomb squad, seems like more materials/devices have been found. Liam Thorp from the Echo is live-tweeting.

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Re: Bomb incident at Liverpool Womens Hospital
« Reply #305 on: November 17, 2021, 04:01:50 pm »
Heavy police presence in Kensington this afternoon including a bomb squad as they search a house. The cordon has just been moved back a significant distance after the arrival of the bomb squad, seems like more materials/devices have been found. Liam Thorp from the Echo is live-tweeting.

On the radio now, confirmed they've found stuff in a house in Boaler Street
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Re: Bomb incident at Liverpool Womens Hospital
« Reply #306 on: November 17, 2021, 04:08:06 pm »
Girlfriends mate is a teacher at a school bottom of one of the roads closed. Moved residents into the school but that was not safe so had to get the children out as well.

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Re: Bomb incident at Liverpool Womens Hospital
« Reply #307 on: November 17, 2021, 04:25:23 pm »
On the radio now, confirmed they've found stuff in a house in Boaler Street


People saying the house being searched is in Sutcliffe Street, but Boaler Street is one of the roads impacted by the cordon. Numerous comments that it's the same house the 3 men were arrested at (then later released)
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Re: Bomb incident at Liverpool Womens Hospital
« Reply #308 on: November 17, 2021, 04:28:23 pm »
Are the police allowed to release them with no charge, release the statement saying no charge but still keep them under watch without them knowing?

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Re: Bomb incident at Liverpool Womens Hospital
« Reply #309 on: November 17, 2021, 04:31:35 pm »
Isn't it the same house from other day? Did they not fully search it then?

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Re: Bomb incident at Liverpool Womens Hospital
« Reply #310 on: November 17, 2021, 04:36:43 pm »

People saying the house being searched is in Sutcliffe Street, but Boaler Street is one of the roads impacted by the cordon. Numerous comments that it's the same house the 3 men were arrested at (then later released)

The radio said they were searching Sutcliffe Street but had found stuff in another house in Boaler Street - must have got their reports mixed up.
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Re: Bomb incident at Liverpool Womens Hospital
« Reply #311 on: November 17, 2021, 09:11:12 pm »
Just reading up on this in the Echo.  My God, the comments section.  They really need to bin them - absolute disgrace.
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Re: Bomb incident at Liverpool Womens Hospital
« Reply #313 on: November 18, 2021, 12:12:48 pm »
Just reading up on this in the Echo.  My God, the comments section.  They really need to bin them - absolute disgrace.

Yep its painful. FB comments under the Echo articles not much better

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Re: Bomb incident at Liverpool Womens Hospital
« Reply #314 on: November 18, 2021, 01:07:11 pm »
I thought 'Love Thy Neighbour' was a key component of Christianity.
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Re: Bomb incident at Liverpool Womens Hospital
« Reply #315 on: November 18, 2021, 01:09:28 pm »
I thought 'Love Thy Neighbour' was a key component of Christianity.

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Re: Bomb incident at Liverpool Womens Hospital
« Reply #316 on: November 18, 2021, 01:12:46 pm »
I thought 'Love Thy Neighbour' was a key component of Christianity.

These are people who only go to church when it's a christening, a wedding or a funeral - and even then it's only for the piss up afterwards.
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Re: Bomb incident at Liverpool Womens Hospital
« Reply #317 on: November 18, 2021, 01:44:37 pm »
Just reading up on this in the Echo.  My God, the comments section.  They really need to bin them - absolute disgrace.
I try to avoid the comments section but, at times, I'm strangely compelled to have a look. I always regret it. Honestly, it's a cesspit. Not unlike comments sections on most media of course, but the far right mantra is alive and well in the Echo comments section.

I actually got banned from there for pulling up fascists and Thatcherites. It's infested with far right ideology from people who seem to see themselves as upstanding citizens.

I was glad to see the stories on the bombing that I saw had no open comments section.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2021, 01:46:53 pm by Son of Spion* »
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Re: Bomb incident at Liverpool Womens Hospital
« Reply #318 on: November 18, 2021, 02:39:04 pm »
Just reading up on this in the Echo.  My God, the comments section.  They really need to bin them - absolute disgrace.

They must attract every right-wing nut in Liverpool. Those comments on there are always from the right and of the Daily Mail variety.
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Re: Bomb incident at Liverpool Womens Hospital
« Reply #319 on: November 18, 2021, 03:02:31 pm »
I'm really happy how I keep minimal contact with the news these days. Some might say I'm choosing wilful ignorance, but it brings me great peace of mind. I wouldn't sleep at night if I exposed myself to some of the garbage rolling around in the media for the sake of "being informed ".
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