Topic: Tomkins Article - Opinions

[FrancisTierney]

Wondered what peoples opinions on this article were.

I was staggered by the stats on Fergusons win percentage in his first 5 years.

http://www.liverpoolfc.tv/news/drilldown/NG163347090223-1321.htm

Hope Ive done this properly as ive never started a thread before.

[rednich85]

I think there's a thread we put all of Tompkins articles in mate.

But you started the thread properly

[Hij]

Not sure if this will get merged, but while long, its one of his better pieces.

[rednich85]

Not sure if this will get merged, but while long, its one of his better pieces.

I don't know.

For the average reader of the official site website, the alex/alec parody seems a bit too complex

[Hij]

I don't know.

For the average reader of the official site website, the alex/alec parody seems a bit too complex

For sure. I certainly enjoyed it though.

Wish their was a shorter, to the point version to post up though, because when its right, its very right, it just takes a lot of time to read.

[shanklyboy]

Good article.
It's all been said on here many times, though Paul Tomkins puts it across better than most.

[lurganboy]

It makes a valid, but fairly unremarkable point. That Utd are streets ahead in terms of finances, and even Sir Taggart would be pressed to do better than, well Sir Taggart, if he were competing with our funds.

But we are where we are, and there's no point whinging about it, it is just a case of cracking on with what we have got.

[mooks]

It makes a valid, but fairly unremarkable point. That Utd are streets ahead in terms of finances, and even Sir Taggart would be pressed to do better than, well Sir Taggart, if he were competing with our funds.

But we are where we are, and there's no point whinging about it, it is just a case of cracking on with what we have got.

Huh?

He's not whining about Ferguson being far ahead in terms of finances and squad depth and continuity.

He's trying to get the dodderheads who self-identify as Liverpool fans to realise exactly what we will be missing if Rafa leaves Liverpool.

[lincolnred-dad]

Huh?

He's not whining about Ferguson being far ahead in terms of finances and squad depth and continuity.

He's trying to get the dodderheads who self-identify as Liverpool fans to realise exactly what we will be missing if Rafa leaves Liverpool.

exactly. it comes across not as 'we have no money that's why we wont win' but more of pointing out that not even the best manager the prem has seen could have done a better job than raffa. for all the talk some people have of replacing raffa, they seem unable to come up with a serious alternative who could do better.

[TrueYorkshireRed]

I know its not entirely the point of the article but the only characteristic I would want Rafa to have from Whiskey-nose is his will to win games...I think too often Rafa tries not to lose games...I dont think you can argue that we dont have the players because we can do it coming from behind so why not from 0-0.

Oh and his ability to get the FA and media to eat out of his hand would be nice.

[guest]

He's miles better than that Scouser in Exile prick.

[Greg]

A good piece from Tomkins there. Interesting idea to use the example of Ferguson at Anfield and what he would have been able to do if he was competing against himself.

There's a lot of good stuff I read on RAWK. But is it no coincidence that all the well written stuff is pro Benitez? I have absolutely no issues regarding well written articles that are anti Benitez, but I can't remember one. All the material that is anti Benitez is normally no longer than a couple of sentences and usually consists of accusations without any examples to back them up. Something else I've noticed. The quality of the writing (in terms of grammar and spelling) is normally a lot poorer when Benitez is getting slagged off.

What conclusions do we draw from this?

[hooded claw]

But is it no coincidence that all the well written stuff is pro Benítez? I have absolutely no issues regarding well written articles that are anti Benítez, but I can't remember one. All the material that is anti Benítez is normally no longer than a couple of sentences and usually consists of accusations without any examples to back them up. Something else I've noticed. The quality of the writing (in terms of grammar and spelling) is normally a lot poorer when Benítez is getting slagged off.

What conclusions do we draw from this?

There are several, I suppose; one would certainly be that writing a well-turned critical piece for RAWK would, in the words of Dr Johnson, be like 'fitting wheels on a tomato.' Time-consuming and pointless.

RAWK isn't really a place that welcomes the ambivalent or critical re Benitez, is it? So, if one were so minded, such an article would be better served being posted elsewhere.

That's one interpretation, anyway.

[the_prodigal_s0n]

Something else I've noticed. The quality of the writing (in terms of grammar and spelling) is normally a lot poorer when Benítez is getting slagged off.

What conclusions do we draw from this?

They're all Real Madrid fans disguised as Liverpool fans. They're hoping to turn us against Rafa resulting in him being sacked and then he'll be free to manage them in the summer.

[Greg]

There are several, I suppose; one would certainly be that writing a well-turned critical piece for RAWK would, in the words of Dr Johnson, be like 'fitting wheels on a tomato.' Time-consuming and pointless.

RAWK isn't really a place that welcomes the ambivalent or critical re Benítez, is it? So, if one were so minded, such an article would be better served being posted elsewhere.

That's one interpretation, anyway.

I can see your point, but there seems to have been a recent increase in Rafa critics. I, for one, would love to read a well written piece from one of these people and would appreciate seeing some well thought out opinions.

From what I've seen, I believe RAWK is quite hospitable to well written criticism, especially if it's come from a well known poster who has made an effort with it. It obviously doesn't stop one line put downs from less articulate Rafa defenders, but they are normally well discussed by others.

[hooded claw]

I can see your point, but there seems to have been a recent increase in Rafa critics. I, for one, would love to read a well written piece from one of these people and would appreciate seeing some well thought out opinions.

From what I've seen, I believe RAWK is quite hospitable to well written criticism, especially if it's come from a well known poster who has made an effort with it. It obviously doesn't stop one line put downs from less articulate Rafa defenders, but they are normally well discussed by others.

I see your point, but the image this place seems to have with some as the 'happy, sunny, rose-tinted, lalalala everything's fine and I can't hear you' sanctuary would probably militate against that. It's also fair to say that exactly what you suggest would be of benefit; a critical piece that has the same time/ care put into it. An Evil Twin Tomkins, if you like. One with hair, but an ugly missus.

[TipTopKop]

RAWK isn't really a place that welcomes the ambivalent or critical re Benítez, is it? So, if one were so minded, such an article would be better served being posted elsewhere.

That's one interpretation, anyway.

I Agree with the above.

The problem is, you get too much mud slinging and name calling anytime a debate for or against Rafa takes place, common sense is usually one of the first elements that go out the window.

A reasoned counter-argument I always think of whenever anyone brings in the old "Fergie needed 7 years" and the "we can't compete financially with the Mancs" is as follows :

Fergie built this 'empire' on Scholes, Giggs, Beckham, Nevilles, Butt, Sharpe who cost virtually nothing, do we honestly see a similar emergence from Plessis, Ngog, El Zhar, Lucas in 2 years from now to win the league ?. The Mancs did it by going through the kids route, when teams around them were spending like mad (Blackburn, Leeds, later Chelsea) and subsequently folding on themselves.

So now you have people wanting the astronomical spending of this day and age, and yet retain the same patience clubs used to have with managers over 15 years ago, you simply can't have it both ways.

...and for the record, I don't think Rafa should walk. I do however, hold him accountable (as any manager) for the Keane saga, for the press rants, and the puzzling 2 defensive midfielders against Stoke, just as I will always credit him for that incredible night in 2005. The point is, questions -valid, reasoned, honest questions- should be asked, and must continually be asked if this club is to move forward.

[lfcdave]

The Tomkins article is once again superbly thought through and a very good perspective on the current situation at anfield.

The one thing I would question between ferguson and rafa is that would ferguson stubbornly pick a player who is clearly underperforming? I don't believe he would and I do think that is one of Rafas weaknesses......but what do I know i'm just a supporter not an expert!! 

[TrueYorkshireRed]

There are several, I suppose; one would certainly be that writing a well-turned critical piece for RAWK would, in the words of Dr Johnson, be like 'fitting wheels on a tomato.' Time-consuming and pointless.

RAWK isn't really a place that welcomes the ambivalent or critical re Benítez, is it? So, if one were so minded, such an article would be better served being posted elsewhere.

That's one interpretation, anyway.

The Tompkins piece is taken from the official website...and he does seem very much the "glass is half full" writer/supporter.

I agree as well that anyone on here not agreeing with the majority and/or mods doesnt generally get a fair hearing.

[TrueYorkshireRed]

I Agree with the above.

The problem is, you get too much mud slinging and name calling anytime a debate for or against Rafa takes place, common sense is usually one of the first elements that go out the window.

A reasoned counter-argument I always think of whenever anyone brings in the old "Fergie needed 7 years" and the "we can't compete financially with the Mancs" is as follows :

Fergie built this 'empire' on Scholes, Giggs, Beckham, Nevilles, Butt, Sharpe who cost virtually nothing, do we honestly see a similar emergence from Plessis, Ngog, El Zhar, Lucas in 2 years from now to win the league ?. The Mancs did it by going through the kids route, when teams around them were spending like mad (Blackburn, Leeds, later Chelsea) and subsequently folding on themselves.

So now you have people wanting the astronomical spending of this day and age, and yet retain the same patience clubs used to have with managers over 15 years ago, you simply can't have it both ways.

...and for the record, I don't think Rafa should walk. I do however, hold him accountable (as any manager) for the Keane saga, for the press rants, and the puzzling 2 defensive midfielders against Stoke, just as I will always credit him for that incredible night in 2005. The point is, questions -valid, reasoned, honest questions- should be asked, and must continually be asked if this club is to move forward.

I agree with most of your points...and I think what we have been asking for is the club to move forward...which it has done...and whether we win the league this year or not...and I fear it may well be the latter...I think next season could be make or break for Rafa...I think if he learns from this season...is able to turn the over-cautious draws into wins and not lose any of the progress we've made this season...then we're away...if he stays the same and the club doesnt move on...bye bye.

[hesbighesred]

I see your point, but the image this place seems to have with some as the 'happy, sunny, rose-tinted, lalalala everything's fine and I can't hear you' sanctuary would probably militate against that. It's also fair to say that exactly what you suggest would be of benefit; a critical piece that has the same time/ care put into it. An Evil Twin Tomkins, if you like. One with hair, but an ugly missus.

With all due respect, I don't think that's even slightly true.

Most of the 'happy clappy' brigade on here...all but a very tiny minority...do have criticisms of Rafa and do voice them from time to time. There's rarely a need to write articles about it however, because critical articles (if we're talking about current football) are more prevalent than positive ones, and critical threads are far more prevalent than non critical ones (just look how long the Lucas threads have become to see how much people like a whinge).

This constant barrage of criticism, mostly moronic, is what motivates those who can argue a good case to do so in favour of Rafa, in order to challenge the poor assumptions out there. If the general tone of the site were 'Rafa iz class innit...?!!!' then you'd see a lot more critical articles.

Please don't take it personally, but I am also heartily, heartily sick of the kind of comment you've just made. If there's one thing that riles me up more than the stupid criticism on this site, it's the perception that the critics are some kind of persecuted minority. Please do kindly fuck off. Look at any post match thread, apart from Chelsea/Man Utd, and see how many negative V positive comments you find...and that includes games we've won FFS. Go and look at the Lucas thread, or the Dosenna thread, and tell me that this site doesn't allow critics to post, or that the critics are some kind of minority.

Now, having done that, take into massive account that this is one of the LEAST critical sites Re Rafa on the web. Even TIA has run a number of hugely critical front page articles recently - including from the editor. Indeed, all the LFC media I read (web and press) has NEVER BEEN more critical of the man, despite us being 2nd in the league and still in the CL. It's absolutely ridiculous how much criticism there already is, some well written and most of it utter shite, yet people are still banging the drum of some mythical pro-rafa mafia who are impinging on freedom of speech.

If 'pro' rafa's are defensive it's because we're sick of hearing the same poorly thought out shite week after week...and I'm personally even more sick of the supposedly die hard supporters on so many 'fan' sites who are using such a critical time to stick the boot in, even though this has a genuine impact on the match going fans, and more importantly the general younger/more impressionable fans all over the place who, if they don't take their lead from the media, certainly do so from respectable fan sites such as this one.

By all means, write a good critical piece and see if it gets shot down. I've never seen one get an especially bad reaction. Certainly no worse than the average (far better written and infinitely better researched) Tomkins article gets for being 'too positive'.

One last thought on this subject of why the 'pros' might get a bit arsey -

I remember a thread called 'post your constructive criticism in here'. A clever thread, a focus for critical assessments, was very well received and had some excellent criticisms, and even the same old same old was said calmly and without the hyperventilating and 'rafa out' rubbish that often accompanies such posts.

It ran to two pages.

Some other examples: 'In support of Lucas' - specifically a thread to praise the lad, 50+ pages, mostly critical.

Brentie's 'Hardest team to beat in Europe' - at least half is full of comments like 'yeah but draws count for nothing'...in a thread where the OP specifically urges to ignore that for the moment and just enjoy the fact we've become so hard to beat.

So forgive me if in that climate I get a bit annoyed at someone claiming there isn't enough platform being given to those who want to air yet more criticism, and forgive me if I don't see why those who, effectively, want to add to the likelhood of Rafa being sacked (however tiny a weight that individual criticism may have it still adds up, and we KNOW that this site is used to justify media and owner views of 'but the fans say...'), should be given more encouragement than they already have to do so.

[hesbighesred]

A reasoned counter-argument I always think of whenever anyone brings in the old "Fergie needed 7 years" and the "we can't compete financially with the Mancs" is as follows :

Fergie built this 'empire' on Scholes, Giggs, Beckham, Nevilles, Butt, Sharpe who cost virtually nothing, do we honestly see a similar emergence from Plessis, Ngog, El Zhar, Lucas in 2 years from now to win the league ?. The Mancs did it by going through the kids route, when teams around them were spending like mad (Blackburn, Leeds, later Chelsea) and subsequently folding on themselves.

And that post illustrates fantastically well why Greg's observation was a good one.

Clearly you can write well and have a brain in your head, but your 'reasoned' counter argument is absolutely nothing of the sort.

Yes he built his empire on the players you mention, but surely it also helps that he'd been breaking club and domestic transfer records just about every season in the seven years leading up to the emergeance of those youngsters?

Even the well 'reasoned' arguments tend to look at one miniscule point that may rebut one specific thing in Rafa's favour...I have yet to read one, ONE, single article or post, critical of Rafa, which not only gives convincing arguments that:

a) He actually does have really significant failings and/or
b) Those failings are actually in any way greater than those of his rivals or potential replacements
c) That any replacement could actually do as well, never mind better
d) That Rafa has actually not performed up to standard
e) That Rafa has not performed especially when off field stuff that would break most managers (see Jol, M) is taken into account

But also manages to put forward some kind of bigger picture overview as to where the critic sees us going in this post Rafa world, how that would help with the ownership, any evidence whatsoever to help assuage my fiears that this would simply start a downward spiral into Newcastle type status.

Because those kind of 'big picture' points, that kind of depth of analysis, that building of a whole argument with many strands of evidence to support it, is what I expect of any good article, whatever it's viewpoint may be. It's also those kind of arguments that many on here and the likes of Tomkins meet head on, answering all the criticisms fully and patiently, time and time again.

That Rafa's critics are not able to live up to that standard is, in my view, far more reflective of the lack of evidence they have supporting their case than it is a reflection of the lack of critical writing talent.

[Greg]

hesbighhesred -  your post is very good and it highlights a lot of what is wrong today on these forums. I don't think hooded claw said anything too bad to upset you though.

The thing I find that pisses me off the most is the way criticism is put across. It's normally done in a very lazy manner. Not that praise is very different in that sense, but the difference is that you can find at least some well written positive posts - where clearly a lot of effort has been made.

I think when it comes to criticism, it's quantity rather than quality. And I think it's very poor quality.

[The Frederick]

That article doesn't help, that's just depressing. It just tells me that the reason we're lagging behind United is because they have much more money. If it was just a dud manager, we could get a new manager. But if it's money, we're pretty much screwed, aren't we?

[hesbighesred]

hesbighhesred -  your post is very good and it highlights a lot of what is wrong today on these forums. I don't think hooded claw said anything too bad to upset you though.

The thing I find that pisses me off the most is the way criticism is put across. It's normally done in a very lazy manner. Not that praise is very different in that sense, but the difference is that you can find at least some well written positive posts - where clearly a lot of effort has been made.

I think when it comes to criticism, it's quantity rather than quality. And I think it's very poor quality.

Like I said, it's nothing against Hooded Claw in particular...not at all. Also, if someone could come out with an article meeting the kind of criteria I would expect of any quality article (be it critical, analytical or even an emotive call to arms) I'd be happy to doff my cap to the man (though I almost certainly wouldn't agree...indeed, I really liked the 'constructive criticism' thread - a great idea underused) but I honestly don't think that they are out there. So much criticism, so much of it utter dross...and given that, my apologies to Hooded and again nothing against him personally, but it does make me inclined to challenge anyone saying that there isn't room for them to air their criticism...there is absolutely plenty even on this site (one of the least critical of Rafa) never mind on any of the other tumpty tumpty fan sites which will happily let you vent your latest 'Why I'd Rather Kick Rafa Than My Cat' type articles.

[hesbighesred]

The Tomkins article is once again superbly thought through and a very good perspective on the current situation at anfield.

The one thing I would question between ferguson and rafa is that would ferguson stubbornly pick a player who is clearly underperforming? I don't believe he would and I do think that is one of Rafas weaknesses......but what do I know i'm just a supporter not an expert!! 

Just off the top of my head:

Evra shite for 6 months.
Blanc shite.
Barthez shite.
Carroll total utter shite.
Fletcher shite for 2 years.
Ferdinand (relatively) shite for 4/5 years.
Giggs shite last season (or one before that).
Ronaldo hugely inconsistent for two years.
Nani shite.

...and there's plenty more.

In fact, there isn't a top manager around who hasn't had to deal with almost the exact same criticisms Rafa has, certainly Fergie:

Wierd selections
Poor subs
'Negativity' (season he tried switching to 4-5-1 at times)
Not enough width
Players out of position
Rotation
Poor tactics

...and for unique Rafa criticisms, you could chuck some in for Fergie that Rafa hasn't had to face:

Clueless in Europe
Can't pick a keeper for toffee
Past it...

What's surprising is that for a successful team doing better than usual those people are a minority who are largely laughed out of sensible company.

I can't remember any manager (at least not in this country) who's had the criticism of him INCREASE as he's taken his team significantly to or beyond what their pre-season goals were. Bizarre.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Great article.

[Greg]

Sorry - I missed your earlier article.

Even the well 'reasoned' arguments tend to look at one miniscule point that may rebut one specific thing in Rafa's favour...I have yet to read one, ONE, single article or post, critical of Rafa, which not only gives convincing arguments that:

a) He actually does have really significant failings and/or
b) Those failings are actually in any way greater than those of his rivals or potential replacements
c) That any replacement could actually do as well, never mind better
d) That Rafa has actually not performed up to standard
e) That Rafa has not performed especially when off field stuff that would break most managers (see Jol, M) is taken into account

But also manages to put forward some kind of bigger picture overview as to where the critic sees us going in this post Rafa world, how that would help with the ownership, any evidence whatsoever to help assuage my fiears that this would simply start a downward spiral into Newcastle type status.

Because those kind of 'big picture' points, that kind of depth of analysis, that building of a whole argument with many strands of evidence to support it, is what I expect of any good article, whatever it's viewpoint may be. It's also those kind of arguments that many on here and the likes of Tomkins meet head on, answering all the criticisms fully and patiently, time and time again.

That Rafa's critics are not able to live up to that standard is, in my view, far more reflective of the lack of evidence they have supporting their case than it is a reflection of the lack of critical writing talent.

You've said it much better than how I could say it. I have been trying to say that for ages actually...

That's the thing about criticism of Benitez. Nobody ever seems to look at the big picture and discuss the realistic possibilities of how Liverpool FC would be without him.

And your last paragraph says it all. And it is also (slyly) the point of my next big thread. I want to encourage people to be critical of Benitez because I honestly believe that nobody can intelligently justify that Benitez should not be here.

[TipTopKop]

Yes he built his empire on the players you mention, but surely it also helps that he'd been breaking club and domestic transfer records just about every season in the seven years leading up to the emergeance of those youngsters?

If that is indeed the case (I would genuinely like a breakdown of those record breaking transfers every season for his first seven seasons), how does it matter to the overall picture when his success was essentially built on kids ?. In other words, if you have a record transfer once a season, for seven seasons, you'd think they would make up at least 5 of the starting 11, and yet as mentioned it's those kids who did it for him, so how can that be ?.

Even the well 'reasoned' arguments tend to look at one miniscule point that may rebut one specific thing in Rafa's favour...I have yet to read one, ONE, single article or post, critical of Rafa, which not only gives convincing arguments that:

a) He actually does have really significant failings and/or

This is clearly a matter of opinion, to you, nothing has thus far seemed like a significant failing, others see things differently. If you truly think Rafa's tenure has been a beacon of perfection, and no significant mistakes have been made or failings observed, then I suggest you don't share the opinion of most.

b) Those failings are actually in any way greater than those of his rivals or potential replacements
c) That any replacement could actually do as well, never mind better

Both points above are conjecture. You cannot claim to know how well someone will do in a position, unless they are actually placed there. You can make a guess, but you cannot talk about potential replacements unless they are there. How many people had heard of Fergie or Wenger before they took over ? it's not always just about your X's and O's, sometimes, it's how well you get on with upper management, how you communicate players, again, not saying Rafa should be replaced, nor that those are his failings, but you simply cannot write people off as potential replacements without seeing what they can do.

d) That Rafa has actually not performed up to standard

Again, you see things through your eyes (which you are entitled to). You would say coming from the Houllier era, we have significantly improved. Others would say we simply haven't improved enough given how many years have passed, or a club of this magnitude has no business being in this position in the first place (and this is a criticism of the club in general, not just the manager). It's good if you're Villa, but this is Liverpool. Some would say "we have no right for the title, we have to earn it" my response would be "SO EARN IT", go out and show you want it, 38 games, mostly against the likes of Boro, West Ham, Hull, Stoke, and Fulham, win them, you don't need £150m for that, play the reserves for both the Carling and the FA, and save the best for the league, stick 2 fingers up at anyone who'd argue, and shut them up with no.19 in May.

e) That Rafa has not performed especially when off field stuff that would break most managers (see Jol, M) is taken into account

Jol wasn't broken, he was sacked. Other clubs sack. Rafa has had a torrid time with the ownership, and continues to do so, but they have (politically motivated or not) stuck by him. I don't know of any other club across Europe that would stick by a manager as much we do, without winning their league (and that goes for Houllier as well). You can counter argue that he hasn't helped with certain press conferences that took place, managers performing under pressure is nothing new especially in today's climate, others coped, and I'm sure Rafa can cope as well.

But also manages to put forward some kind of bigger picture overview as to where the critic sees us going in this post Rafa world, how that would help with the ownership, any evidence whatsoever to help assuage my fiears that this would simply start a downward spiral into Newcastle type status.

I'm sorry, but if Hooded Claw's comment made you "heartily, heartily sick" then I would like to cry foul of the same symptoms.

Yet again, let me start by saying I am against Rafa being shown the door, but I'm equally against giving him a free pass without questioning what's going on.

This fear mongering however, has been trumpetted by many and I truly believe it has been one of the most significant factors of us falling behind the times so much. Fear of the unknown; look out, we don't want to be a Leeds do we ? we don't want to be a Newcastle, and we certainly don't want Reina, Alonso, Torres walking out on us if Rafa goes. To me, this is hysteria equal to the post match "Sack Rafa" rants that come out on here.

Simply put, it's more conjecture. What I do know is, if you don't dare, if you don't take risks, you won't know, and that can be as bad as it can be good. Did Barca/Madrid/Chelsea/Juve(Who were relegated)/Bayern feel scared their players would walk out if their manager was let go ? did we fear an exodus the day king Kenny stepped down ? Do you think the Mancs would fear their players walking out on them now if Taggart steps down ?.

I truly believe that 19 years or so of being 2nd, 3rd, and 4th best has kicked a lot of the ambition and courage out of us, and for me, that is a crying shame. Personally, the obsession with one man as opposed to a club started with Houllier, that's when people started throwing themselves under lorries in his name, they would shout "but he gave his heart to the club" all the while we were clearly regressing into something of a footballing tragedy everytime Djimi tried a dragback in the penalty box.

Because those kind of 'big picture' points, that kind of depth of analysis, that building of a whole argument with many strands of evidence to support it, is what I expect of any good article, whatever it's viewpoint may be. It's also those kind of arguments that many on here and the likes of Tomkins meet head on, answering all the criticisms fully and patiently, time and time again.

'Big picture' points to me would discuss how the club has fared against similar clubs domestically and across the continent, to see the likes of Chelsea/Mancs/Milan/Barca/Madrid constantly win their leagues or be in contention, and to ask why can't we have that, we used to at one point, and this season's been encouraging, hence my saying it is wrong to let go of Rafa, but I want us to sit and review at the end of the season, I welcome discussion and dissection of why certain players were brought for so much money and let go after a few months, why our backup winger/striker positions have been a revolving door since Rafa took over, why we can't sustain a league challenge past February. What I will not do however, is back one man, no matter who he is, without considering counter arguments, then call it the 'big picture'.

I for one welcome questions, and will welcome discussion, what I won't do is pretend that everything is rosey,nor is it really calamitous.

[GBF]

It is unfair to compare most managers to Fergie.  Fergie is in a way Manchester United, the day he retires is the day united will struggle.  Through the year and the trophies, he has build a system where he has control on things he want to control whereas Rafa is trying to start that but isnt being helped with some hopeless members of the club (Parry and al).  But the main problem for Rafa is that football has changed from the time Fergie went to United.

[Robo707]

I found it an entertaining read, I even posted it on a forum of my second club (Aberdeen).......pretty much full of Man U scummers (as you would expect up in Aberdeen, "why you support Man United?" "Oh simply because of the Fergie connection"..........HAHAHAHAHA love that one, idiots!!!".

Anyways, made the post, and got something like this back:
http://www.thedandies.co.uk/messageboard/index.php?PHPSESSID=96cf77cce8430d93de6bafb7d52b92e2&topic=7245.msg121915#new

I'm not sure whether to laugh or cry......

I liked the "non bias view" of a Man united fan. Hope you have a laugh at their expense, like I did.......enjoy or don't.

[royhendo]

Here's a good example of a critical piece that was very well received on here.

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=235684.0

If it's well thought-out, it gets its due respect.

[Slave]

Jol wasn't broken, he was sacked. Other clubs sack. Rafa has had a torrid time with the ownership, and continues to do so, but they have (politically motivated or not) stuck by him.

Yes he was sacked, but only after the inner turmoil at the club had an effect on the team's performance. I think Spurs had about 4 points after 7 games and Levy had to let him go. The same with Mourinho, there were rumours of Mourinho's position being under pressure and after/because of that the results suffered, only then was he sacked.

Benítez has had pressure on him for almost 2 seasons now and yet we've improved in that time, that's the point.

[Greg]

TipTopKop - I appreciate all the effort you've made in response to hesbighesred's earlier post - but I feel you may have missed his point.

He doesn't (at least to my impression of him) think that eveything Rafa has done has been a "beacon of perfection" - as you put it. He is simply saying that when people criticise Rafa, they usually fail to demonstrate that they understand the big picture.

In your post, I agree with a lot of your points and disagree with some. I like the fact you backed it up by saying you support Rafa and want him to stay. But a lot of people just go feet first in criticising him and fail to say whether they want him to stay or not. If they leave it open and leave it unsaid, it suggests (probably unrealistically) that they want him gone. And that's not really constructive criticism.

Roy - I'd never seen that post before, cheers for pointing it out. It's something I agree with 100%. I've said it myself many times - take more risks. Mathematically it makes sense. It still baffles me that Rafa doesn't take these risks more often. It's ok to protect the draw against a challenger, but not against a side we should be beating on paper.

I'm off for some badminton now - apparently I'm fat.

[mooks]

If that is indeed the case (I would genuinely like a breakdown of those record breaking transfers every season for his first seven seasons), how does it matter to the overall picture when his success was essentially built on kids ?. In other words, if you have a record transfer once a season, for seven seasons, you'd think they would make up at least 5 of the starting 11, and yet as mentioned it's those kids who did it for him, so how can that be ?.

If you want a breakdown of Fergie's spending, try reading through Paul Tomkins' archives

And if you think Scholes, Beckham, etc were part of Ferguson's first title-winning side, I've got some gold stocks in Indonesia for sale

It's good if you're Villa, but this is Liverpool. Some would say "we have no right for the title, we have to earn it" my response would be "SO EARN IT", go out and show you want it, 38 games, mostly against the likes of Boro, West Ham, Hull, Stoke, and Fulham, win them, you don't need £150m for that, play the reserves for both the Carling and the FA, and save the best for the league, stick 2 fingers up at anyone who'd argue, and shut them up with no.19 in May.

Exactly - all would have been rosy if Rafa had played the reserves against Everton in the Cup

Jol wasn't broken, he was sacked. Other clubs sack.

Too true - Newcastle and Tottenham sack.  Your point is?

Rafa has had a torrid time with the ownership, and continues to do so, but they have (politically motivated or not) stuck by him. I don't know of any other club across Europe that would stick by a manager as much we do, without winning their league (and that goes for Houllier as well).

Everton?

Yet again, let me start by saying I am against Rafa being shown the door, but I'm equally against giving him a free pass without questioning what's going on.

I was going to suggest you start to offer something constructive instead of your "questions".  But if your grand idea is to play the reserves in the FA Cup I suggest you stick to your questions.

[fowlermagic]

As much as I hate the fecker it is hard to imagine Fergie not doing it here as somewhere deep down in my stomach there is a flicker of recognition that red nose might actually be a good manager. Maybe even better than Rafa ...shame on me to say that but the fecker did break the dominance of the Old Firm in Scotland and the only Scottish club manager in nearly 40 years to win a European competition with a team that was closer to Roy of the Rovers stuff.

I love to see a Utd writer try and explain how Bill would not have changed things around with Utd back in the 60s as he was just lucky to have our resources. Obviously what he did puts Red Nose in the shade as he dragged us from the depths but hopefully you can understand what I am hinting at. Is Fergie as good as Rafa? Does he know how to win the English league? Is his formation / style of play more suitable for domestic success versus European success?

I have to say yes to all.

Now let me go and wash my mouth out.

[hesbighesred]

If that is indeed the case (I would genuinely like a breakdown of those record breaking transfers every season for his first seven seasons), how does it matter to the overall picture when his success was essentially built on kids ?. In other words, if you have a record transfer once a season, for seven seasons, you'd think they would make up at least 5 of the starting 11, and yet as mentioned it's those kids who did it for him, so how can that be ?.

From Wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alex_Ferguson#1986.E2.80.9390:_The_first_years
(And this is by no means a comprehensive list)

 Steve Bruce, Viv Anderson, Brian McClair and Jim Leighton, (87-88)

 Mark Hughes (88-89)

Neil Webb and Paul Ince, as well as defender Gary Pallister (a national record £2.3million signing from Middlesbrough). (89-90)

Dion Dublin and Eric Cantona (91-92)

So you can see that not only were there a ton of very pricey transfers (Webb was also in the £2million plus bracket, and given £2.3 as a national record then the likes of Bruce, Cantona, Ince and more are all the equivalent of £10-£20million pound players).

So, let's be fair, your take of only '5' bought in palyers is utterly wrong (Bruce, Pallister, Irwin, Parker, Schmeichel, Kanchelskis, Ince, Hughes, Cantona all key parts of initial triumph), and even if it weren't, those 5 were all massively expensive, and he had the luxury of record breaking flops like Webb, as many (or nearly) of those as he had successes.

This is clearly a matter of opinion, to you, nothing has thus far seemed like a significant failing, others see things differently. If you truly think Rafa's tenure has been a beacon of perfection, and no significant mistakes have been made or failings observed, then I suggest you don't share the opinion of most.Both points above are conjecture. You cannot claim to know how well someone will do in a position, unless they are actually placed there. You can make a guess, but you cannot talk about potential replacements unless they are there. How many people had heard of Fergie or Wenger before they took over ? it's not always just about your X's and O's, sometimes, it's how well you get on with upper management, how you communicate players, again, not saying Rafa should be replaced, nor that those are his failings, but you simply cannot write people off as potential replacements without seeing what they can do.Again, you see things through your eyes (which you are entitled to). You would say coming from the Houllier era, we have significantly improved. Others would say we simply haven't improved enough given how many years have passed, or a club of this magnitude has no business being in this position in the first place (and this is a criticism of the club in general, not just the manager). It's good if you're Villa, but this is Liverpool. Some would say "we have no right for the title, we have to earn it" my response would be "SO EARN IT", go out and show you want it, 38 games, mostly against the likes of Boro, West Ham, Hull, Stoke, and Fulham, win them, you don't need £150m for that, play the reserves for both the Carling and the FA, and save the best for the league, stick 2 fingers up at anyone who'd argue, and shut them up with no.19 in May.Jol wasn't broken, he was sacked. Other clubs sack. Rafa has had a torrid time with the ownership, and continues to do so, but they have (politically motivated or not) stuck by him. I don't know of any other club across Europe that would stick by a manager as much we do, without winning their league (and that goes for Houllier as well). You can counter argue that he hasn't helped with certain press conferences that took place, managers performing under pressure is nothing new especially in today's climate, others coped, and I'm sure Rafa can cope as well.

You've actually missed my point completely. My point was that critical articles never seem to bother to answer all of those questions, never mind add to that the kind of 'big picture' reasoning that I expect of any good article, be it critical or positive. Where's the vision for post Rafa? At best these critical articles are just a list of perceptions, which as you say about the things I've pointed out are dismissable as opinion (though I would contend that the pro Rafa have at least compelling evidence, such as Rafa's CV, his trophies, the current squad and Liverpool's inferior pre Rafa performance to point to. The BEST anti Rafa 'evidence' is EXACTLY the sort of 'If my aunty had balls' type reasoning you are so dismissive of here.

To take just one example...NO, we can't say that manager X wouldn't come in and do a better job. Of course not.

However, neither can we dismiss the possibility that manager X would oversee a shocking decline that would have massive reprucussions for our future. With Gd we had two seasons of looking like we were definitely going backwards in each. Can't say that for Rafa.

Instead, looking at the evidence, such as we have, (EG our finances, Rafa's CL performance, players who have signed for us who wouldn't without Rafa or equivalent in charge) any sensible betting man would say it's MORE likely that we'd do worse, not better, with a new manager.

Oh, and just to pick up on another little bit of that:

"Play the reserves for the Carling and FA cup."

See, it's exactly that sort of, I'm sorry to say, utter and complete shite that so called 'reasonable' criticisms are so often filled with. Look at what happened in the FA and Carling Cups this year.

Play the reserves. Yeah right. I'm sure you and the thousands like you would have been the FIRST on here praising Rafa for prioritising the league had we played our reserves against Everton. I'm sure you'd all have been queueing up to sing his praises and state your 100% backing of the man. FFS.

I'm sorry, but if Hooded Claw's comment made you "heartily, heartily sick" then I would like to cry foul of the same symptoms.

Yet again, let me start by saying I am against Rafa being shown the door, but I'm equally against giving him a free pass without questioning what's going on.

What are you sick of exactly? I'm not objecting to questions, or criticism, I'm objecting to the fucking laughable and, as far as i'm concerned, often spoiled and ignorant view that this site is somehow intolerant of criticism of Rafa. Here you are, criticising. Are you being banned? Censored? No. You've picked a passionate person on the wrong day who is strongly arguing his case against you, different day, different thread you've got plenty of passionate supporters.

Don't like the positivity here? Well why not go and visit one of the (every single other, more or less) Liverpool sites that are more critical, or post in one of the now (long ignored) threads specifically set up to post your criticism in.

No problem with criticism (at least not well put together, rare though it is) do have a problem with those who try to make out like they're some kind of persecuted minority. It's not true, and it's highly irritating to read given just how much criticism there actually is on here.

This fear mongering however, has been trumpetted by many and I truly believe it has been one of the most significant factors of us falling behind the times so much. Fear of the unknown; look out, we don't want to be a Leeds do we ? we don't want to be a Newcastle, and we certainly don't want Reina, Alonso, Torres walking out on us if Rafa goes. To me, this is hysteria equal to the post match "Sack Rafa" rants that come out on here.

Small peas compared to the 'UNITED ARE GONNA TAKE OUR RECORD' fear mongering, as far as I'm concerned.

I also think you are hugely exaggerating the number of those kinds of posts in order to justify your own outlook.

I challenge you again, take a brief look around this site, even after a WIN like Pompey, and tell me that there are more positive posts than negative ones.

It simply isn't true. It's an argument, but a false and pernicious one right up there with the likes of 'Rotation doesn't work'.

Simply put, it's more conjecture. What I do know is, if you don't dare, if you don't take risks, you won't know, and that can be as bad as it can be good. Did Barca/Madrid/Chelsea/Juve(Who were relegated)/Bayern feel scared their players would walk out if their manager was let go ? did we fear an exodus the day king Kenny stepped down ? Do you think the Mancs would fear their players walking out on them now if Taggart steps down ?.

Yes, but at least it's (being pro rafa) conjecture based on a nigh on an excellent CV, a great manner, success at this club having attracted top tier talent to the club, rather than conjecture baased on NOTHING beyond 'well, the grass might be greener'.

Give me one manager, just one, where you could genuinely give decent evidence that he could overtake Utd/Chelsea given the lesser resources and boardroom SHITE that Rafa has put up with and I'll start listening.

Oh, and as for Jol...he wasn't sacked instantly was he? Know. He was hamstrung in the summer, didn't have full control of transfers and had his job touted behind his back (sound familiar). He then spent several months battling relegation. Rafa took us to 4th and another CL semi.

I truly believe that 19 years or so of being 2nd, 3rd, and 4th best has kicked a lot of the ambition and courage out of us, and for me, that is a crying shame.

Not convinced by that one. Could just as easily argue that it's given us a real persistent core of fans who have massively inflated expectations (like the 'We are Liverpool' bit you said yourself. What's that supposed to mean? Yes we are - and that means we have a stadium smaller than Newcastles taking in vastly less money from it than they do, a wage bill closer to the likes of Spurs than Utd and Chelsea, a tiny area to draw local talent from compared to our main rivals...this isn't a hollywood film. Having a 'legend' to go with your name doesn't mean you can beat the vastly better funded and equipped 'bad guys' just by 'being Liverpool') without any of the actual knowlexdge and experience of what title challenges are really like...ask most of the 'Arl arses if this side is up there with the better ones in our history. They'd say it is. Ask them if we've had much worse sides bring home the title. They'd say we had. Ask them if any of our teams ever really won while being 'glorious' in the way so many seem to think is some kind of bottom line below which is only failure...the only one that usually gets mentioned is Dalglish's 88-89 side...one that because of the Euro ban is actually impossible to truly judge if that would have worked in Europe, or if we could only be that 'glorious' thanks to lack of real challenge and competition.

Personally, the obsession with one man as opposed to a club started with Houllier, that's when people started throwing themselves under lorries in his name, they would shout "but he gave his heart to the club" all the while we were clearly regressing into something of a footballing tragedy everytime Djimi tried a dragback in the penalty box.

And there was me thinking that (IE the cult of the manager) actually had quite a lot to do with Shanks, but whatever. Suffice it to say, if you think backing the manager to the hilt is a tradition that started with Houllier you are very, seriously wrong.

'Big picture' points to me would discuss how the club has fared against similar clubs domestically and across the continent, to see the likes of Chelsea/Mancs/Milan/Barca/Madrid constantly win their leagues or be in contention, and to ask why can't we have that, we used to at one point, and this season's been encouraging, hence my saying it is wrong to let go of Rafa, but I want us to sit and review at the end of the season, I welcome discussion and dissection of why certain players were brought for so much money and let go after a few months, why our backup winger/striker positions have been a revolving door since Rafa took over, why we can't sustain a league challenge past February. What I will not do however, is back one man, no matter who he is, without considering counter arguments, then call it the 'big picture'.

Ok, if I think your saying what I think you are then there's a simple answer.

We've been FUCKING IMMENSE compared to clubs of a similar stature across Europe. Absolutely FUCKING IMMENSE. No one is anywhere NEAR to punching above their weight as far as we have. Funnily enough, the last team that really did comparably were Rafa's Valencia.

Who has dominated since Rafa took over?

Barca, Chelsea, Man Utd, Bayern, Inter.

We've beaten ALL of them in terms of CL consistency, and only behind Chelsea and Man Utd domestically. Our comparative financial muscle is tiny compared to those teams (with the possible exception of Inter, who have a sugar daddy so don't need to generate their own cash). There are no teams who have a financial gap as large as ours is to the teams we are expected to overtake who are dominating, or even regularly challenging for domestic or European honours.

So in short, the closest there is to the kind of club you describe is actually US.

I for one welcome questions, and will welcome discussion, what I won't do is pretend that everything is rosey,nor is it really calamitous.

No, it's not all rosy for sure, but forgive me for thinking that when Liverpool's future is so in the balance, when Rafa's future is in the balance, when there's so much to be positive to be about and when there are so many vultures within and without the club looking for any opportunity to pick our carcase clean that it might actually be an idea to try and minimise the sniping and maximise the positivity and support...thus telling our owners and the media and indeed our rivals loud and clear that we are united...we believe...we back our manager and we won't be torn apart by those who would like nothing better than a destroyed Liverpool.

At the very least we could be focussing our doubts and anger onto the real problems at the club...IE the two Yanks, instead of letting them essentially bask freely in the warming glow generated by the stupendous heat being put on Rafa.

Sorry if I haven't met all your points head on, may come back in more detail later but I think I've dealt with the gist of your arguments...time to go home for me

[TSC]

Here's a good example of a critical piece that was very well received on here.

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=235684.0

If it's well thought-out, it gets its due respect.

Yeah that is a good post actually.

[A Day 2 Remember]

Hes big hes red - top top posts mate. The fact that the only negative responses are full of bollox seems to back this. Play the ressies and how about Wenger as an example of a manger who has been kept regardless of recent success and i seem to remember Fergie winning the cup winners cup with a bag of shite from Scotland before he got the UTD job.

The post by Shanks which has a link above is a great example of a well written post which offers a plausible solution to a criticism. Unfortunately like Hes Big etc points out this is definitely the exception to the rule.

To me it boils down to this. The complexities of managing a club like Liverpool are mind blowing. We seem to have found a manger that is showing signs of improvement each year their is nothing to suggest he will not continue to improve and hone his abilities. Why go out and take a flyer on a new manager when we could already have the next Ferguson in making. No one can suggest a candidate that could do a better job considering what you take on managing Liverpool FC.

PRIDE seems to be the motivating stimulus to most negative posts about Rafa.

PRIDE is a bitch.

Prov. 16:18 - "pride goes before destruction, and a haughty spirit before stumbling"
Prov. 29:23 - "a man's pride will bring him low"
Isa. 2:11 - "the loftiness of man will be humbled"

Do you ever see any of these various forms of pride in a negative Rafa post.

Various forms of "pride"

    A. Self-admiration - "Look at me!"
         my abilities, talents, assets
         
    B. Self-aggrandizement - "Don't I look good/great?"
         my looks, my importance my position in the supporters hierachy

    C. Self-attention - "Listen to me!"
        my understanding and viewpoint my footballing knowledge

    D. Self-justification - "I am right!" my way is the right way our                 doctrine is  right
    E. Self-sufficiency - "I can do it!"
       
    F. Self-aspiration - "Let me win!" competitive spirit; one-up-manship
       our statistics will prove us successful
    G. Self-seeking - "Give me mine!" my rights; what I deserve                  our political rights and physical edifice
    H. Self-exaltation - "Praise me!"
      my credit, glory, commendation
      our procedures and success

[TipTopKop]

He is simply saying that when people criticise Rafa, they usually fail to demonstrate that they understand the big picture.

I understand Greg, but if they don't see a bigger picture, it would be their failing, ultimately though the bigger picture itself is a generic term, many are worried about the ownership, others think it's just about beating Everton. I guess this is why people will differ in their expectations of the club -and by proxy- their opinions as well.

I was going to suggest you start to offer something constructive instead of your "questions".  But if your grand idea is to play the reserves in the FA Cup I suggest you stick to your questions.

I suggest you do something to yourself.
If we don't have as big a squad as the Mancs/Chelsea, then we need to prioritise, rather than spread ourselves too thin, one way is to play the an understrength team when faced with a cup replay in a congested fixture period, Rafa has done it before you know.

From Wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alex_Ferguson#1986.E2.80.9390:_The_first_years
...So you can see that not only were there a ton of very pricey transfers

Firstly you'll appreciate it being Wiki it's not the most trusted, granted though they were pricey transfers, but not a national record signings over every year as you put it.
I don't want to be pedantic, but my point is though he spent, it was his youth policy which was the corner stone of their turnaround.

So, let's be fair, your take of only '5' bought in palyers is utterly wrong (Bruce, Pallister, Irwin, Parker, Schmeichel, Kanchelskis, Ince, Hughes, Cantona all key parts of initial triumph).

I see your point, but mine was 5 national record signings, and as mentioned above apart from Pallister I don't know of any other record signings, those mentioned were big signings sure, but not record, that was my point.

"Play the reserves for the Carling and FA cup."

Play the reserves. Yeah right. I'm sure you and the thousands like you would have been the FIRST on here praising Rafa for prioritising the league had we played our reserves against Everton. I'm sure you'd all have been queueing up to sing his praises and state your 100% backing of the man. FFS.

Utter bollocks. Please don't dismiss my opinion if you haven't read my previous posts, even before this season had started I was saying it should be about the league and nothing but the league for us. If you can find one quote for me questioning why played an under strength team in the Carling/FA Cup you'll have my regards, until then please do not assume what I would or would not do if we had fielded an under strength squad because you know nothing about me apart from what you're reading here. Others may jump on that bandwagon, but to me the league represents a true measure of improvement, thus if our squad isn't as big as the Mancs/Chelsea etc I would gladly forfeit those competitions and concentrate on 38 games, rather than spread us too thin and come up short on all fronts.

What are you sick of exactly?

I was referring to how far the other view is, that as soon as someone questions a decision of a manager, people start saying "Let's bring in Fat Sam or Tony Adams" as if that's what's being suggested, any time during or before the Houllier era you questioned the board's direction you would be met with "Shhhhh that's not the Liverpool way, Moores is an honest man, and he'd never let this club decline".... well now we can enjoy the situation we find ourselves in, we fell so far off the times, afraid of change, pointing at failures rather than successes that by the time we did make the move it was desperate, and sadly wrong. Now it's become a favourite past time for some to slate Moores, at times way over the top.

No problem with criticism (at least not well put together, rare though it is) do have a problem with those who try to make out like they're some kind of persecuted minority. It's not true, and it's highly irritating to read given just how much criticism there actually is on here.

Completely agree. The voice of discontent is much higher than that of satisfaction these days, and honestly speaking ? a part of me is happy that questions are being asked -of everything- because again, I really feel we came to this mess by sitting back and looking back, and being too comfy of where we were.

Small peas compared to the 'UNITED ARE GONNA TAKE OUR RECORD' fear mongering, as far as I'm concerned.

as misguided as that point of view you quoted, it has only become significantly louder in the last year or 2, however the 'Leeds/Newcastle' failure story had been going on since Houllier's time.

I challenge you again, take a brief look around this site, even after a WIN like Pompey, and tell me that there are more positive posts than negative ones.

I have to assume you have me confused with someone else, as I never said this place is Mr. Motivator's play pen. Of course post game comments go in 20 or 30 pages when it's a draw/loss, and significantly less when we do win.

Give me one manager, just one, where you could genuinely give decent evidence that he could overtake Utd/Chelsea given the lesser resources and boardroom SHITE that Rafa has put up with and I'll start listening.

But then I'd be doing the exact same thing that I'm accusing you of, which is trying to predict the future. I don't know who can come, and who may do a better job, would we have let go of Cuper in favour of a newly promted Tenerife manager ? what's on this unknown's CV so attractive compared to mighty Hector ?. All this, and I will say I am not of the opinion that Rafa should be replaced, but I am also honestly against Rafa being given a new 5 year contract based on the way things stand, I want to wait until the end of the season to make a judgement on things.

Oh, and as for Jol...he wasn't sacked instantly was he? Know. He was hamstrung in the summer, didn't have full control of transfers and had his job touted behind his back (sound familiar). He then spent several months battling relegation. Rafa took us to 4th and another CL semi.

The point I made about Jol was he was let go, Rafa is still here. The board, for all their failings (and they are many) have generally stuck by him, and it's up to him to make the best of it.