Author Topic: FSG discussion thread  (Read 320524 times)

Offline keyop

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FSG discussion thread
« on: October 25, 2022, 11:55:07 am »
There’s no doubt we’re in a tough place at the moment, and this hasn’t been the season we were all hoping for, especially after almost winning the quadruple last year.

However, it seems in recent years that all too often all the discussions are circular in their nature, and all roads regularly lead to FSG. I’ve started this thread as a rational (yes, I know…) place to properly debate our owners, and to praise, vent, agree, disagree, or post whatever might be your views or ideas. It’s also to try and prevent all of the other threads leading down the same dead-end route, which often curtails discussions and leaves posters exhausted or indifferent about the topic being discussed - which isn’t really what a discussion forum should be in my view.

Personally, I’m not for or against our owners. However, I’m a realist and an optimist, and can see all the good things they’ve done as well as the mistakes they’ve made. However, when you go into many threads - whether its pre-match, post-match, player threads, the injury thread, the Jurgen thread, the Klopp Template thread (and too many others to mention), the narrative can quickly descend into the reductionist argument of ‘we should spend more’ (or ‘spend as much as everyone else’). We all know it’s not as simple as that, but it doesn’t seem to prevent the same discussions and arguments being repeated, and (certainly lately) - a lot of arguing, name calling, and personal insults being thrown around. The two often polarising viewpoints usually end in a stalemate - until they simply crop up again in a different thread and the cycle starts again. One side wants to blame every bad result, performance, individual mistake, or injury on the club or the owners. The other side thinks it’s more complex than that, and that everyone associated with the club must share some of the responsibility, and that (on balance) FSG have done a good job. There are a few people in between, but most seem to fall into the two different camps. Examples of how the discussions go are:
  • A player gets injured, and it could simply be bad luck or a bad tackle – but others might argue that we ‘always buy injury prone players’, or ‘should’ve sold them years ago’.
  • We lose to a team like Forest (but can beat City), and some say we need to find consistency, whereas others suggest a ‘total rebuild’ or ‘the players are all in decline’, or ‘we need to spend at least £300m’.
  • A player is off form or makes a mistake, and some of us feel that it can happen occasionally, whereas others suggest they've been 'flogged for 5 seasons', or that 'this was inevitable with older players' or 'we should've sold them when we had a chance'
  • We don’t sign the player we were hoping for, and some of us think there could be a multitude of reasons why, but others suggest ‘the club is negligent’ or that ‘our recruitment team are hopeless’, or ‘Jurgen isn’t being allowed to buy the players he wants’.
  • Keita and Ox are still regularly injured and will both leave on a free next summer, and some of us simply think that no club wanted to buy players who are crocked so often, on decent wages, and often can’t even get in the team when fit. Whereas others claim ‘we should’ve sold them both by now’, and that it’s ‘incompetence’ and ‘bad planning’ to still have them on our books after almost 5 years.
Sometimes there is simply no blame required, or one individual that has screwed up. As history shows, football is a game of chance and risk both on and off the pitch, and whilst all clubs should always maximise the chances of success (and try to limit the number of variables that are out of their control), sometimes we will simply find that ‘shit just happens’.

I’m all for debate, but the singular arguments so often being made can make it difficult to have meaningful discussion, when seemingly the only narrative being offered is that ultimately it’s all John Henry’s fault (and is purely about money). Yes, John Henry owns a yacht and he bought the club at a bargain price, and now has an asset worth over £3billion. But when you remember where we were when he took over (and what has happened since), it’s all about perspective, and also realising that that £3billion isn’t cash in a bank account they can spend how they like – it’s just a valuation that won’t materialise until they sell. There is clearly no doubt that Jurgen has been the difference maker for us under FSG’s tenure, but that doesn’t necessarily mean he is responsible everything good, and that the owners are responsible for everything bad.

To reduce everything down to Jurgen’s personality (and ability) overlooks the fact that FSG were new to football, were finding their feet, and ultimately learned from their mistakes between 2010 and 2015. Those 5 years were not the pre-Jurgen dystopia that many make it out to be - we almost won the league, we won the league cup, reached the FA cup final, started work on the main stand, and we bought players like Suarez, Sturridge, Sterling, Coutinho, Henderson, Bobby, Gomez, Origi and Milner – several of whom have been key players in our recent success. We arguably might have also done better after 2013/14 had we not blown all the Suarez money mostly on duds. The often tacit narrative of ‘everything was shit under FSG until Jurgen arrived’ is patently false in my view.

I know we (rightly) have a natural distrust of our owners (and people in suits in general), but it can often reach levels approaching paranoia on here sometimes. Other clubs make mistakes all the time and we laugh at them, whilst often expecting us to be perfect (and being surprised when we’re not). Other clubs make mistakes in the transfer market, or buy players that don’t succeed (or get injured), or waste hundreds of millions on transfers only to go backwards. Our arch enemies up the road are an example that throwing hundreds of millions at a project isn’t a guarantee of success, and that blaming the owners is too simplistic. Other clubs have in-fighting at board level, or sack their managers every other season, or have to be bailed out with loans, or have stadiums in disrepair, or are forced to sell their best players. Yet for some reason we are held to entirely different standards, despite what we’ve seen unfolding at other clubs in the Premier League and in Europe. Some might say we should ‘quite rightly’ hold ourselves to higher standards, and I’d largely agree. But the process to achieve those standards is not linear, and there will inevitably be some bumps in the road along the way – as there have been for every top football club throughout history.

I’ll start things off with my personal view on what our owners have done well, and what they could’ve done better.

Things FSG have done well:


•   Pay competitive wages to attract and keep the best players
•   Get a top class manager in that can help transform the club from top to bottom
•   Increase the stadium capacity
•   Stop losing all our best players to other clubs
•   Find a workable solution for the Anfield Road stand
•   Tie down our best players to longer contracts for their peak years
•   Build a proper recruitment team, aligned with the manager's philosophy
•   Invest in the Academy and facilities
•   Compete commercially with other big clubs and grow our revenues
•   Get back to the European glory days again
•   Put a footballing structure in place to help us regularly compete for the title
•   Don’t leverage the club with unmanageable debt, or ever put the future of the club at risk

Things FSG could’ve done better:

•   Invested more into the playing squad (at least more consistently across the last 5-6 years)
•   Taken more advantage of our position of strength between 2018 and 2020
•   Handled the ticket price situation better
•   Consulted fans and the community on the ESL plans

On balance I feel they’ve done more things right than wrong, and whilst we’re all frustrated at our near misses and our struggles this season (and in 2020/21), it’s always worth remembering that we’ve ultimately only ever been competing with City since Jurgen’s been here. Up until the last two months, we’ve been head and shoulders above everyone else – even finishing 3rd in 2020/21 when half our team were out injured. Without City’s cheating and our terrible luck with injuries, we’d have at least another 3 titles by now and I highly doubt the owners would be under as much scrutiny.

On a final point – it’s worth noting that those of us defending FSG are not ‘pro-FSG’. In fact, I imagine most on here couldn't care less if it’s John Henry/FSG or any another organisation running the club – provided they do three things:

1.   Continually improve us as a competitive club both on and off the pitch
2.   Run the club with integrity through honest means, and protect the future of the club via a sustainable business model
3.   Listen to the fans and community and learn from their mistakes

Hopefully most will agree that we don’t want so many threads descending into repetitive owner bashing/defending. Hopefully this thread can become somewhere where views, ideas and discussions can presented and curated, without all the arguing, mud-slinging, and continuous references back to the owners and money - when in reality our recent struggles are far more complex than that.

After all, aren't we all on the same team here?
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Offline JackWard33

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #1 on: October 25, 2022, 12:08:04 pm »
I'm not inteding to participate in this thread a lot as ownership discussions on here just don't go well

But the one thing I would say in response to your OP is that its backwards looking... its an assessment of whats happened so far
And that's a legit discussion but its not as interesting to me as what happens next.

I have serious concerns about how we stay competitive over the next 5 years and I'm not convinced that either ownership or the footballing side of the club have an idea as to how that happens. It seems pretty clear to me that the recruitment 'edge' that got us to where we are has now reduced massively and may not even really exist at all any more
So my questions are around what happens next and how do we stay competitive with this ownership - I'm much more interested in that than the 8000th raking over the coals of the last decade

Offline Mozology

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #2 on: October 25, 2022, 12:14:00 pm »
They got extremely lucky on two occasions, firstly getting Klopp to become our manager, he could've easily said no. Secondly, getting over 140 million for Coutinho, without that insanity from Barca we don't get Becker and Virg

The news about Edwards going to Utd is depressing as fuck. The best behind the scenes man in world football and he's going to them c*nts.

Offline keyop

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #3 on: October 25, 2022, 12:17:51 pm »
I'm not inteding to participate in this thread a lot as ownership discussions on here just don't go well

But the one thing I would say in response to your OP is that its backwards looking... its an assessment of whats happened so far
And that's a legit discussion but its not as interesting to me as what happens next.

I have serious concerns about how we stay competitive over the next 5 years and I'm not convinced that either ownership or the footballing side of the club have an idea as to how that happens. It seems pretty clear to me that the recruitment 'edge' that got us to where we are has now reduced massively and may not even really exist at all any more
So my questions are around what happens next and how do we stay competitive with this ownership - I'm much more interested in that than the 8000th raking over the coals of the last decade
I agree Jack - we have to look forwards. But as with anything in life - it's important to know where we've come from and to learn from what went well and what we could do better. The detail above is merely to set that context and think about how we move forward.

It's also worth noting that City have been a thorn in our side for over 6 years now, and even without them apparently 'pushing us to be better', we'd have likely won 4 PL titles under Jurgen given his influence on all aspects of the club since 2015.
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Offline -Willo-

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #4 on: October 25, 2022, 12:18:15 pm »
This is my opinion;

I think everything we have won over the last few years is in spite of FSG. They struck gold with Klopp, and then struck gold with Coutinho to Barcelona.


If you look at an FSG owned LFC pre-Klopp it was underwhelming. They came in and wanted to adopt the moneyball philosophy which for me, immediately showed their ambition was more on making money instead of challenging at the top, because buying players for cheap to increase their value to sell on is not getting you to compete with the big boys.

What I will give them credit for is the team they have recruited to make perfection a possibility, they all seem top class from Hogan to Klopp, but perfection is a possibility for a short amount of time with the money we have at our disposal, and when you revert back to being good, this is where we need a bit of ambition. I don't believe they have the ambition to truly be the best, as long as we hit the top 4 they are happy... That used to be fine a few years ago because we were on a journey to the top, but we have hit the pinnacle and for us to stay on top they simply need to be spending more on the team.

Brilliant businessmen, but average owners from a football fan perspective, also I will never 'thank' them for 'saving' us, someone was always buying Liverpool FC at a cut price deal, one which was only possible due to our incredible fans. If anything they should be thanking the fans who protested and forced H&G out.

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #5 on: October 25, 2022, 12:22:06 pm »
Manchester United whether they get Edwards or not with the money they have will improve. Arsenal have finally got a good squad will have plenty of money. 
City & Newcastle endless amounts of money. Chelsea huge investment but I think that ownership they will struggle most likely.

We have huge competition to stay competitive with the PL just swamped with money at the top.
2016-2018 transfer wise was crucial with how we re invested money we got in.

Butwith no Edwards & no big money sales we really are approaching a very difficult period.
Either FSG invest or we could be struggling to make 5th in the future to make the CL.

We were run so well from 2016-2019. 2019-2022 has been a shambles to be honest. Not proacative in the market & just banking on aging players still being able to play a very intense style of play.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2022, 12:25:20 pm by MD1990 »

Offline Fromola

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #6 on: October 25, 2022, 12:25:01 pm »
The problem is the PL has outgrown them financially. They were banking on FFP working which would keep spending levels down.

They have done well to get our revenues up but are unwilling/unable to spend what our competitors spend which leaves you at the mercy of needing a great manager and every transfer working out in order to compete.

It should be Man United competing with City rather than us given spending. Chelsea as well and plus what Arsenal have spent to get back and now Newcastle.

I think they should move on on one hand but then better the devil you know at the same time. If they were error free it would be okay but their fucks are numerous and costly.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2022, 12:28:34 pm by Fromola »
Could have done with Grujic and even Chirivella to tide us over this season

Offline killer-heels

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #7 on: October 25, 2022, 12:29:20 pm »
We still have some amazing players and our golden goose which is Klopp. All is not lost yet.

But even then we won the lot, so its better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all.

Offline -Willo-

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #8 on: October 25, 2022, 12:29:31 pm »
The problem is the PL has outgrown them financially. They were banking on FFP working which would keep spending levels down.

They have done well to get our revenues up but are unwilling/unable to spend what our competitors spend which leaves you at the mercy of needing a great manager and every transfer working out in order to compete.

It should be Man United competing with City rather than us given spending. Chelsea as well and plus what Arsenal have spent to get back and now Newcastle.

I think they should move on on one hand but then better the devil you know at the same time. If they were error free it would be okay but their fucks are numerous.

I think they were banking on future projects like the Super League coming to fruition too, I wish they would not to be honest, footy is just killing itself every year and it needs to evolve to keep some semblance of competitivity.

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #9 on: October 25, 2022, 12:31:22 pm »
the majority of teams will find it hard to compete (most do now) at the very top, as well as Liverpool.  It’s a far wider reaching problem. The money in the sport at the top has reached such obscene levels, I don’t see how there’s anyway back.

I’m just happy and thankful we won the league finally as well as everything else under Kloppo. We’ll see what the future holds, but I’d love nothing more than for PL football to die a painful death and to get a re-set. (I know it won’t happen).  From a personal standpoint, I don't even care, I never supported the club with feeling an entitlement to win thing. The real problems in football are far more wide reaching than what bothers Liverpool fans, and if they don't get solved, nothing else maters in the grand scheme of things.

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #10 on: October 25, 2022, 12:35:21 pm »
We still have some amazing players and our golden goose which is Klopp. All is not lost yet.

But even then we won the lot, so its better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all.

I wholeheartedly disagree on that one I'm afraid. As for FSG they struck gold with Klopp but he won't be around forever.

Offline Fromola

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #11 on: October 25, 2022, 12:42:53 pm »
I wholeheartedly disagree on that one I'm afraid. As for FSG they struck gold with Klopp but he won't be around forever.

As one of the biggest clubs in the sport we haven't won nearly enough in the last 30 years. That goes beyond FSG but throughout that time we just haven't had that spending power needed.

The Coutinho fee being the one game changer for us with what we could buy with it.
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Offline Zlen

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #12 on: October 25, 2022, 12:52:22 pm »
Yes, they have done a lot right, or better said, have often enough learned from their mistakes and corrected course. But sometimes, life actually presents you with singular, unique moments. There will be no room for course correction later, no second attempt to make things right. You either do the right thing and use this moment, or you don't and it is gone. Forever. It takes wisdom to identify these moments and courage to make the right choice when they come. And here, more than anywhere else, in these pivotal moments have FSG failed miserably.

First example for me is their failure to maximise the time we have with Klopp. If we are to analyse their behaviour, they simply do not understand just how unique Klopp, and his bond to the club, actually is. There is no Klopp tree to go and pick another one from, but he is in fact treated like just another employee, seemingly replaceable, and they refuse to tweak and alter their charted course and methods in order to avoid what we are doing this season - wasting the precious time. They have their schedules, projections, goals and expectations - and they play the spreadsheet game. Reality though has a nasty way of taking your carefully curated data and making you look stupid. And boy do FSG sometimes manage to make themselves, and us, look stupid while attempting to be the most clever operators around.

Second example, and it's one I'll never forgive them for as long as they are around, is the way they missed the train when we were riding high - specifically the summer after becoming Champions. There are no words for just how fucked up that was. You have a literal football fairytale unfolding. Pure fucking magic. End of the decades long wait, amazing team praised by everyone across the globe. You could have your pick of players, stars and prospects alike, who would find it incredibly hard to resist this gravitational pull of what felt like destiny enveloping our club. And what do you do? You twiddle your fucking thumbs and carry on with your spreadsheet masterplan. I'll never get over that one, never. In hindsight we were all too drunk on joy to care and the world was complicated and insane - but alarms should have been screaming.

I don't know how to interpret any of this. We are a stable club, enjoying more success than we have in a long time. On the other hand, I feel we are banging against the ceiling of what we can do with these owners. It's not only imposed by funds - it is also imposed by their inability to understand moments like those, to be more flexible and less risk-averse when genuine opportunity presents itself. This won't go away I'm afraid. That is how they operate. Problem for us is - we aren't competing in arena where all follow the same ground rules. And Klopp or no Klopp, good intentions or not - we could be left behind once again, bemoaning what could have been and still hoping the spreadsheet will deliver again. When in fact it never did. It was always the organic, weird, unpredictable moments we managed to turn in our favour that made us win - yet we fail to accept them as important in how the club operates.

Offline RideTheWalrus

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #13 on: October 25, 2022, 12:52:30 pm »
I'm not inteding to participate in this thread a lot as ownership discussions on here just don't go well

But the one thing I would say in response to your OP is that its backwards looking... its an assessment of whats happened so far
And that's a legit discussion but its not as interesting to me as what happens next.

I have serious concerns about how we stay competitive over the next 5 years and I'm not convinced that either ownership or the footballing side of the club have an idea as to how that happens. It seems pretty clear to me that the recruitment 'edge' that got us to where we are has now reduced massively and may not even really exist at all any more
So my questions are around what happens next and how do we stay competitive with this ownership - I'm much more interested in that than the 8000th raking over the coals of the last decade

I agree. We simply cannot afford busts. We need everything to go perfectly or else we'll be left behind, which is not a sustainable way forwards. If our head of recruitment/scouts/next manager in the future/big spend signings don't work etc, that rules us out for years. We cannot just make a bad decision and then admit defeat, change it and move on as financially we won't be able to.

City spent 100 mil on Grealish who isn't a flop per-se, but is basically a bench option with minimal output, where he starting every match week in week out, he'd be judged to be a flop already. If we spent that, it would have set us back three years, with city it hasn't set them back at all despite the flop.

It's impossible and unsustainable to have a 100% hit ratio
Pretty happy with Arse taking it.

Disappointing.
[/quote]

Offline Barrow Shaun

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #14 on: October 25, 2022, 12:57:07 pm »
I heard somewhere recently that our net spend over recent years is around the likes of Bournemouth etc, so that's where I am.
We've been screaming out for midfield addition(s) since we knew Gini was going, and we only seem to spend when a big player leaves, also for decent money (eg. Coutinho, Mane).

We fill Anfield with 54,000 every home game and are a global name. So, even though we've been utterly magnificent in recent years (and we most certainly have been utterly magnificent) I'm a bit frustrated we haven't brought one or two more quality (and expensive) lads in.
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Offline TheMan

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #15 on: October 25, 2022, 12:59:41 pm »
Their model doesn't work anymore. In fact it's a miracle it has worked this long.

They are not bad owners, they are just not good enough anymore if we want to compete.

They hired the right people, got the stadium sorted but invested next to nothing in the team.

I am amazed actually that they got the club to the highest level and still didn't invest in the team. They did the hard part but then just kept their hands in their pockets to watch it all potentially collapse.

Too much competition now, too much money being spent by our rivals and too much expected of our incredible staff to stay competitive with one hand tied behind their backs.

Please sell now before things get worse and worse. You will make a gargantuan ROI, don't wait until the fans completely turn against you which will happen if you maintain the Scrooge-like model you are wedded to.

Offline RideTheWalrus

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #16 on: October 25, 2022, 01:03:21 pm »
Their model doesn't work anymore. In fact it's a miracle it has worked this long.

They are not bad owners, they are just not good enough anymore if we want to compete.

They hired the right people, got the stadium sorted but invested next to nothing in the team.

I am amazed actually that they got the club to the highest level and still didn't invest in the team. They did the hard part but then just kept their hands in their pockets to watch it all potentially collapse.

Too much competition now, too much money being spent by our rivals and too much expected of our incredible staff to stay competitive with one hand tied behind their backs.

Please sell now before things get worse and worse. You will make a gargantuan ROI, don't wait until the fans completely turn against you which will happen if you maintain the Scrooge-like model you are wedded to.

I never really liked FSG, but the worry is now the only way for us to be competitive in the way you describe, is to sell our soul to the highest bidder and become another sportwashed football club.

Is that what you want? It's not what I want. My interest in football wanes over time and the accelerating introduction of sportwashing clubs owned by countries is slowly making it seem like a sort of world cup where it's countries competing to have the best sports asset.
Pretty happy with Arse taking it.

Disappointing.
[/quote]

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #17 on: October 25, 2022, 01:05:46 pm »
Pissing into the wind hoping it gets consigned to one thread but here’s hoping :D

FSG no doubt got ‘lucky’ with Klopp, but the bigger question is how we compete moving forward. I just don’t really see it with any ownership that isn’t either a sugar daddy or a state, and considering the mood at the moment I genuinely wouldn’t be surprised if we get five/ten years of what United have had with the Glazers, constant half arsed protests knowing full well there’s not realistically really anyone better. We’ll get the usual ‘but a net spend better than Sheffield United doesn’t need a sugar daddy’ but frankly to keep buying and paying the players you need to keep competing at the top level and keep us ticking along everywhere else…I fear it probably does.

The bigger picture is just absolutely grim, the associations just want as much money as possible in the game regardless of where it comes from and the media are so buried up the arses of journalist murdering, human rights abusing despots that there’s never going to be the groundswell of pressure that’s needed to make it ‘fair’ again.
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Offline BobPaisley3

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #18 on: October 25, 2022, 01:09:24 pm »
They wanted the Super League for a reason.

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #19 on: October 25, 2022, 01:10:19 pm »
It is very interesting to see fsg top management speak about buying real estate around anfield like fenway park. A lot of talk about valuation and being there for the long term.     

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #20 on: October 25, 2022, 01:12:30 pm »
I really wonder what all the people who are now saying that our midfield is beyond salvage or that the team needs an ‘overhaul’ or any number of things were saying on the eve of last season’s champions’ league final?
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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #21 on: October 25, 2022, 01:13:58 pm »
Nice OP, well reasoned & as bold as restarting the Labour thread.

For my point of view:

I don’t think it’s a coincidence that our rise back to the top has been under their stewardship.
To counter that though, I worry that they’re repeating the mistakes of past regimes by not investing well enough in the team. They have, of course, invested greatly in infrastructure. We need to be keeping pace with our Top 4 rivals (at least) even if we can’t spend like the oligarchs & nation state cheats.
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Offline RideTheWalrus

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #22 on: October 25, 2022, 01:16:04 pm »
I really wonder what all the people who are now saying that our midfield is beyond salvage or that the team needs an ‘overhaul’ or any number of things were saying on the eve of last season’s champions’ league final?

No we were too busy in a pub looking forward to the final.

Time waits for no man, and if you look at the ages of our midfield everyone knew this time was coming, it was just a matter of when, and it's just so happened to explode in our face right now.
Pretty happy with Arse taking it.

Disappointing.
[/quote]

Offline Kozmapolitan

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #23 on: October 25, 2022, 01:16:15 pm »
Overall, FSG have so far done an excellent job with the club. However, I think they tried to be a bit too cute this season. It's easy to say in hindsight, given that it's only a matter of months since we were two games away from the quadruple, but we have definitely made a potentially very costly error with the lack of investment in the squad for this season. We also don't know how much that was down to Klopp and how much down to them. There's a good chance he backed a lot of this squad and didn't foresee the drop off this season. It's also clear that we went for and missed out on some big names. The question is what are they going to do about the squad now. They aren't fools and know full well they need the team performing on the pitch - otherwise, all of the good progress made off the pitch can easily be put in jeopardy. Ideally, they start addressing this in January or, if that's not feasible, in the Summer. This season may well end up as a write off (that's my current sense although we live in hope) and next season may be a rebuilding phase, but if we are back heading in the right direction after that then I've no complaints. We all know FSG aren't a Sugar Daddy owner and they are therefore trying to run the club sustainably with minimal investment from them. If that's not going to be possible going forward then we'll need a Sugar Daddy owner ourselves to keep up with the top of the PL. Basically, it's a key 12-18 months coming up for FSG's investment. Without successful investment in the squad, our trajectory will be downwards and once you fall out of the Top 4, it can be tough to get back in.

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #24 on: October 25, 2022, 01:18:08 pm »
I really wonder what all the people who are now saying that our midfield is beyond salvage or that the team needs an ‘overhaul’ or any number of things were saying on the eve of last season’s champions’ league final?

not sure what you are trying to say, or even the correlation? Why would any actual supporter be arsed about anything BUT the football that day. Transfer window wasn’t open (and I get that doesn’t stop the Transfers FC fans) anyway.

Offline Paul JH

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #25 on: October 25, 2022, 01:18:44 pm »
Will never understand their defenders really regarding the TEAM (not the club overall).

Is funding a stadium re-build enough to allow them complete freedom from criticism over their complete lack of investment in a team that, with Klopp (without him we'd be mid table) won the title and got to three CL finals, and a playing staff that should SHOULD have been invested in far, far more than it has been?

Tired now of reading 'but we can't do what City do!!' in any discussion regarding defending our owners, as if every criticism of them boils down to not spending insane money on players and wages. It really doesn't.
It just boils down to watching a top, successful club like us penny pinch and look for free's, young lads and players on the cheap for quite a few years in the hope Klopp somehow turns them into genius players.

Like watching Rafa trying to manage and make us think Jermaine Pennant was a world class winger fit for a CL winning side ... it's the same with FSG.

I really wonder what all the people who are now saying that our midfield is beyond salvage or that the team needs an ‘overhaul’ or any number of things were saying on the eve of last season’s champions’ league final?

Er... CL final or not, there has been legitimate concerns about the investment in the playing staff for quite a while and just going 'well we got to the CL final' just narrows it down to the simplest possible retort.

Defenders of FSG say this kind of thing and 'WE CAN'T DO WHAT CITY DO!' in their defence, and people who don't like them think they've done absolutely nothing for this club. Both are wrong. There is a middle ground you know?
« Last Edit: October 25, 2022, 01:23:37 pm by Paul JH »
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Offline BobPaisley3

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #26 on: October 25, 2022, 01:20:50 pm »
No we were too busy in a pub looking forward to the final.

Time waits for no man, and if you look at the ages of our midfield everyone knew this time was coming, it was just a matter of when, and it's just so happened to explode in our face right now.
Absolutely and ironically a key reason we lost was because our two best midfielders were carrying knocks.

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #27 on: October 25, 2022, 01:24:48 pm »
It isn't about a sugar daddy. FSG need to invest because if they don't, we won't be bringing in Champions League revenue and the club won't represent a sustainable business model either way.

And otherwise, what's the point? To be Wenger-era Arsenal, dragging ourselves to a top four place each year while spending as little as possible? To be Leicester with a shiny new training ground, occasionally challenging for a cup or a Champions League place, with our best players leaving for ambitious clubs each summer?

This club is capable of far more than that, but I get the feeling a lot of people on here would rather be supporting an Arsenal or a Leicester, because being able to claim some kind of imaginary moral superiority to the rest of the league is far more important to them than actually winning. Don't get me started on the people who think the club has some kind of moral obligation to make a profit for FSG every year, and that anything less isn't 'financially sustainable'.

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #28 on: October 25, 2022, 01:25:58 pm »
I can’t be arsed to look it up but how many crystal ball posts were there around that time that predicted just how dramatically our collective form would fall off a cliff together with all the injuries we’d have? Were there any posts similar to all the current in depth hindsight driven analysis of why we’ve suddenly become shite?
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Offline robertobaggio37

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #29 on: October 25, 2022, 01:26:52 pm »
« Last Edit: October 25, 2022, 01:31:18 pm by robertobaggio37 »
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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #30 on: October 25, 2022, 01:30:33 pm »
I get the fact we cant compete with City or Newcastle but can somebody tell me when the memo was sent that said we cant compete with Chelsea, United, Spurs and Arsenal?

There is 5 CL places up for grabs next season. Is it now people are saying we should call it quits?

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #31 on: October 25, 2022, 01:30:43 pm »
The ‘haven’t invested in the team’ really is shite by the way chaps and is just gonna send this one down the same route as many others.
If he's being asked to head the ball too frequently - which isn't exactly his specialty - it could affect his ear and cause an infection. Especially if the ball hits him on the ear directly.

Offline Paul JH

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #32 on: October 25, 2022, 01:31:55 pm »
This club is capable of far more than that, but I get the feeling a lot of people on here would rather be supporting an Arsenal or a Leicester, because being able to claim some kind of imaginary moral superiority to the rest of the league is far more important to them than actually winning. Don't get me started on the people who think the club has some kind of moral obligation to make a profit for FSG every year, and that anything less isn't 'financially sustainable'.

I've got a mate who defends them to the hilt, where literally the only argument for that defence is Man City's model.

Agree with the above statement completely.
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Offline Paul JH

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #33 on: October 25, 2022, 01:32:39 pm »
The ‘haven’t invested in the team’ really is shite by the way chaps

How?
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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #34 on: October 25, 2022, 01:32:57 pm »
I never really liked FSG, but the worry is now the only way for us to be competitive in the way you describe, is to sell our soul to the highest bidder and become another sportwashed football club.

Is that what you want? It's not what I want. My interest in football wanes over time and the accelerating introduction of sportwashing clubs owned by countries is slowly making it seem like a sort of world cup where it's countries competing to have the best sports asset.

I'd walk away from the club if we became a sportswashed team. Would rather see us in the lower leagues with some integrity than become what City and Newcastle have become.
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Offline UntouchableLuis

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #35 on: October 25, 2022, 01:34:05 pm »
They've been solid owners in many ways. Not sure what people want sometimes on here - people say they'd turn their back on the club if we got some Saudi billionaire in yet if you want lots of trophies you now need something like that, that's the reality.

We can win some trophies as we have Klopp and one of the best first teams in the world. But we can't win big trophies consistently as that requires serious squad depth and keeping things fresh and exciting.

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Offline RideTheWalrus

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #36 on: October 25, 2022, 01:36:55 pm »
I'd walk away from the club if we became a sportswashed team. Would rather see us in the lower leagues with some integrity than become what City and Newcastle have become.

I agree completely and that's the problem. There's basically no alternative, we can be as FSG want - go for top four and hope we get another golden age with manager + squad and then maybe win some stuff and challenge. Be a state owned team and be right at the top constantly spending money that would make Rishi Sunak blush, or be a toy to a rich consortium or owner like Roman Abramovich.

Without rules on ownership coming in (which they won't), these are the only three possibilities I can see.
Pretty happy with Arse taking it.

Disappointing.
[/quote]

Offline Paul JH

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #37 on: October 25, 2022, 01:37:05 pm »
I get the fact we cant compete with City or Newcastle but can somebody tell me when the memo was sent that said we cant compete with Chelsea, United, Spurs and Arsenal?

There is 5 CL places up for grabs next season. Is it now people are saying we should call it quits?

Amen.

Tired of this argument always boiling down to City / Newcastle / Sportwashing etc ... barely even mentions us as a club anymore and what we are doing.
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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #38 on: October 25, 2022, 01:40:38 pm »
I get the fact we cant compete with City or Newcastle but can somebody tell me when the memo was sent that said we cant compete with Chelsea, United, Spurs and Arsenal?

There is 5 CL places up for grabs next season. Is it now people are saying we should call it quits?

In what way are we not competing with those teams…?
If he's being asked to head the ball too frequently - which isn't exactly his specialty - it could affect his ear and cause an infection. Especially if the ball hits him on the ear directly.

Offline keyop

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Re: FSG discussion thread
« Reply #39 on: October 25, 2022, 01:41:49 pm »
So, considering the stadium, training facilities and commercial operations are all going very well, is the solution a big cash injection over the next 3-4 transfer windows to get us back on track, whilst we bring the youngsters through and phase the older ones out?

I think it is to some degree, but we've also had a LOT of injuries, players completely out of form (even those supposedly in their peak years), and the cumulative fatigue and disappointment of battling with a gang of cheats for 5 years.

So I think buying lots of players for Jurgen will help, but in the here and now the issues seem to be motivational, fatigue, injuries, and the knock on effects of players being overplayed due to those same injuries elsewhere.

We should be beating teams like Forest no matter who we put on the pitch, so I think there's plenty of issues to resolve besides spending - especially as the team showed they still have what it takes when we beat City.
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