Topic: The West, Israel and Islam - Your Opinion (*)

[Asam]

Given that a two state solution is unlikely as the Palestinians won’t agree to it, what solution do people suggest to bring peace?

FLMAO Why didn’t the Israelis give the Palestinians their land 70 years ago? What was the excuse of the day then? Could it possibly be that they NEVER intended for the Palestinians to live in any kind of dignity? I honest to god don’t know how you could be so ignorant

Palestinians are not the ones running through Palestinian neighbourhoods across the country throwing Molotov cocktails at peoples houses, that would be the racist Zionists TV at get a full passs from you

Before Israel was created Jews and Muslims lived in Palestine without any issues, it will be the same if Palestinians are given their equal rights, stop making excuses for Israel and putting conditions on Palestinians which don’t apply to anyone else

[Sangria]

Defending itself from invading Arab countries and terrorist organisations?

People need to get their heads around the fact that Israel will always be a Jewish nation and they will implement laws to solidify this fact that to Western eyes can appear unequal and oppressive to its minority populations.

I would compare the Jewish situation to other middle east minorities who have failed to create nation states for themselves, such as the Kurds or Yazidis. The lesson is clear, the Israelies are in a much better situation than the other minorities in the Muslim countries so never allow yourself to be a minority in a Muslim country, things tend to go badly.

Israel is less liberal than most western countries. But it's more liberal than every Muslim country (AFAIK). There's an argument to be made to see Israel as less civilised than our western countries, using the arguments of liberalism. But that argument holds no water when one champions Muslim countries as a counterpoint.

I browse a Pakistani forum for cricket news. The amount of hate directed against Hindus (understandable if still vile) and Jews (not understandable at all given how far away Israel is) makes me roll my eyes whenever anyone tries to paint Muslim countries as helpless victims of Israel. From what I've read, neighbouring (Muslim) countries treat their Palestinians even worse.

[Sangria]

FLMAO Why didn’t the Israelis give the Palestinians their land 70 years ago? What was the excuse of the day then? Could it possibly be that they NEVER intended for the Palestinians to live in any kind of dignity? I honest to god don’t know how you could be so ignorant

Palestinians are not the ones running through Palestinian neighbourhoods across the country throwing Molotov cocktails at peoples houses, that would be the racist Zionists TV at get a full passs from you

Before Israel was created Jews and Muslims lived in Palestine without any issues, it will be the same if Palestinians are given their equal rights, stop making excuses for Israel and putting conditions on Palestinians which don’t apply to anyone else

Not according to all accounts I've read. The first acts of terrorism came from Arabs against Jewish immigrants, and after WWII both Arabs and Jews wanted the British out so they could settle their accounts without third party interference.

[TepidT2O]

FLMAO Why didn’t the Israelis give the Palestinians their land 70 years ago? What was the excuse of the day then? Could it possibly be that they NEVER intended for the Palestinians to live in any kind of dignity? I honest to god don’t know how you could be so ignorant

Palestinians are not the ones running through Palestinian neighbourhoods across the country throwing Molotov cocktails at peoples houses, that would be the racist Zionists TV at get a full passs from you

Before Israel was created Jews and Muslims lived in Palestine without any issues, it will be the same if Palestinians are given their equal rights, stop making excuses for Israel and putting conditions on Palestinians which don’t apply to anyone else

Perhaps I should have said realistic solutions …….

Because there is absolutely no way this would ever be signed up for.

[Yorkykopite]

What is this shit?  .............etc etc etc

I've got to say I hope people on here don't descend to your shameful level of abuse otherwise the thread will get locked before you can say Abu Nidal, I mean Jack Robinson.

[Bobsackamano]

Israel is less liberal than most western countries. But it's more liberal than every Muslim country (AFAIK). There's an argument to be made to see Israel as less civilised than our western countries, using the arguments of liberalism. But that argument holds no water when one champions Muslim countries as a counterpoint.

I browse a Pakistani forum for cricket news. The amount of hate directed against Hindus (understandable if still vile) and Jews (not understandable at all given how far away Israel is) makes me roll my eyes whenever anyone tries to paint Muslim countries as helpless victims of Israel. From what I've read, neighbouring (Muslim) countries treat their Palestinians even worse.

Oh its certainly less liberal than the norm in major western countries. In fact i find many of the Israeli governments, thinking of Sharon and Netanyahu, utterly appalling.

However they are at a completely different stage of nation building as ourselves so dont have the luxury of not confronting existential issues as unfrequently. Sadly the right wing are always given more licence for appalling behaviour when the population are fearful of external threats.

The Palestinian people are treated terribly everywhere, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, by Israel and by their own rulers. They really have had the shitty end of the stick for a long time now. In an ideal world they should have a state comprising the west bank, gaza with some of the bordering Jordan added in. However no one likes giving up land to facilitate a just solution and i actually doubt many Arab nations would want a strong Palestinian state to exist, its very useful to have a bogeyman to rally the folks back home sometimes. Especially as its some other population getting a kicking.

[Wild Romany Boy]

I realise you want a barney, but I'll try not to give you one. I did not call him an anti-semite. That is the inference you drew. Fair enough.

But it's interesting to me that this has drawn your outrage and not the poster in question calling his fellow-RAWKites the equivalent of "KKK" and "cheerleaders for ethno-supremacist policies".

I don't want a barney at all. You were caught out and he caught you out. You have insulted the intelligence of many people on this forum and you've stayed just the right side of a line that seems to be arbitrarily drawn, so haven't been reprimanded for it.

I understood what he was saying, because he wrote it well. Your writing was muddled so it caused some confusion. When you cleared it up, it was a little better. I have no issue with someone thinking I am the "KKK", I believe that I am not but I listen and take stuff in. It hasn't got me far post Cambridge but it has given me a few less sleepless nights. I suggest you take a similar approach.

[classycarra]

I don't want a barney at all. You were caught out and he caught you out. You have insulted the intelligence of many people on this forum and you've stayed just the right side of a line that seems to be arbitrarily drawn, so haven't been reprimanded for it.

I understood what he was saying, because he wrote it well. Your writing was muddled so it caused some confusion. When you cleared it up, it was a little better. I have no issue with someone thinking I am the "KKK", I believe that I am not but I listen and take stuff in. It hasn't got me far post Cambridge but it has given me a few less sleepless nights. I suggest you take a similar approach.

It's subjective obviously, but I'm struggling to see how you can say that the first one here was 'written well', but the second one was 'muddled writing'

Dude, this site is a football forum but people Got pretty passionate about Hillsborough and rightly so, Palestinians suffer from a new Hillsborough on a daily basis, I can’t think of anything less Liverpool than someone who fails to call out a Racist/apartheid state or would actually go out of their way to support such a vile and horrific entity, beggars belief

The headline on this site is rawk supports black lives..Should we accept KKK supporters on here in that case? Are there two sides to that story also? I have zero tone for racism or apartheid

Thanks. You've rather neatly made my point for me. The ANC and its supporters wanted to rewrite the constitution and uproot the Apartheid state. They did not limit themselves to ending racial segregation.

I think maybe you are getting confused with the civil-rights movement in America who were happy with the US Constitution and wanted the nation to live up to its promises. Their aim was limited to ending racial segregation. (or "cultural segregation" as you so coyly put it!)

Something much bigger was going on in South Africa (as I thought everyone knew).

Also, for someone who has spent three posts policing the thread (and labouring the point) that some have been subtly insulting people's intelligence I was a bit surprised to see you doing similar about writing the quality and clarity of someone's writing and then try to damn with faint praise after.

[Wild Romany Boy]

It's subjective obviously, but I'm struggling to see how you can say that the first one here was 'written well', but the second one was 'muddled writing'
Also, for someone who has spent three posts policing the thread (and labouring the point) that some have been subtly insulting people's intelligence I was a bit surprised to see you doing similar about writing the quality and clarity of someone's writing and then try to damn with faint praise after.

Maybe it's because I understand the political point Asam was making, even if I do not agree, whilst Yorky is giving a subjective view of history and making out like everyone should know it.

I pointed out that my own writing is poor, and I do think that Yorky has talent as a writer, but it was a totally professional criticism. Now, if somebody thinks that it's in poor taste then I will listen and adjust, when Yorky has had his points taken issue with in the past he has bemoaned that the forum is full of snowflakes and given a lily-livered warning. He's talking about Asam taking the tone down and the very quote from him you have used is an example of him insulting the intelligence of the poster.

You have made the point here and I will take it onboard.

[classycarra]

Maybe it's because I understand the political point Asam was making, even if I do not agree, whilst Yorky is giving a subjective view of history and making out like everyone should know it.

Again, recognise the subjectivity, but I'm struggling to see how you can dismissively label the point Yorky made as 'a subjective view of history' yet determine that Asam's point both had clarity and was not subjective itself. But that's opinions really.

You have made the point here and I will take it onboard.

Appreciate it - introspection is a good quality especially in the world full of entrenched views we live in - but please don't feel like that's what I was asking you to do.

I definitely don't have an issue with a bit of heated discussion/argument, and think being overly cautious about avoiding direct to-the-point criticism can sometimes limit the discourse.

[Yorkykopite]

I pointed out that my own writing is poor, and I do think that Yorky has talent as a writer, but it was a totally professional criticism. Now, if somebody thinks that it's in poor taste then I will listen and adjust, when Yorky has had his points taken issue with in the past he has bemoaned that the forum is full of snowflakes and given a lily-livered warning. He's talking about Asam taking the tone down and the very quote from him you have used is an example of him insulting the intelligence of the poster.

I have to say you do seem a little obsessed with me. On every thread. Not with what I write, which you never engage with, but how I write.

[Wild Romany Boy]

I have to say you do seem a little obsessed with me. On every thread. Not with what I write, which you never engage with, but how I write.

I engage with your points Yorky, as many do, and it's exactly what you say that angers me.

But I'm more than happy to leave it and will do now. I'm a fluid sort of lover, but you're really not my type. Have a good evening.

[Asam]

Perhaps I should have said realistic solutions …….

Because there is absolutely no way this would ever be signed up for.

Before white South Africa was forced in line by the international community there wasn’t any hope of a realistic solution

The international community need to stop treating Israel as a special case because if false accusations of anti semitism, it’s amazing what can happen in a short time when people stop pandering to the mob

The emperor has no clothes, the number of people who fall for the idiotic Zionist narrative is shrinking on a daily basis, everyone can see it for what it is - a distraction to prevent people holding a racist apartheid state to account for its crimes

[Asam]

I've got to say I hope people on here don't descend to your shameful level of abuse otherwise the thread will get locked before you can say Abu Nidal, I mean Jack Robinson.

Lol, yes nothing more shameful than someone using casual racism in a post is there? You’ve shown your true colours with this post (and those who support your viewpoint are probably of a similar mindset)

[Sangria]

Lol, yes nothing more shameful than someone using casual racism in a post is there? You’ve shown your true colours with this post (and those who support your viewpoint are probably of a similar mindset)

How about those who don't support his views but who think that your posts are even worse?

[TepidT2O]

Before white South Africa was forced in line by the international community there wasn’t any hope of a realistic solution

The international community need to stop treating Israel as a special case because if false accusations of anti semitism, it’s amazing what can happen in a short time when people stop pandering to the mob

The emperor has no clothes, the number of people who fall for the idiotic Zionist narrative is shrinking on a daily basis, everyone can see it for what it is - a distraction to prevent people holding a racist apartheid state to account for its crimes

I do note that you didn’t in anyway answer my question.

What’s a realistic solution, a way to bring peace?

[Asam]

Doesn't seem the most compatible viewpoint (especially to be acting holier than thou about), when you just suggested that it beggars belief that people want to consider Hamas and explore further than just looking at one side:

Really, what’s the other side here?

The worlds fourth most powerful army
A nuclear power
Incredibly wealthy
Backed by America to the hilt
Billions of dollars of funding for weapons from America
The blockade of Gaza
Calculating the number of calories per day for people living in Gaza
Polluted drinking water
Killing kids playing football on the beach
Firing indiscriminately into hospitals and ambulances
Denying people access to hospitals for treatment
Killing Palestinians and harvesting their organs for Israeli families without their parents permisssion
Demolishing Palestinian homes that have stood for hiundreds of years because they can’t produce a building permit or because “King David” is rumored to have taken a dump there once, in sky for the same homes to find their way into settler possession a few weeks later
Any Jew in any country with no connection can go and live in Israel yet Palestinians who were forcibly removed have no right to return

These people literally stole the homes they live in from Palestinians by committing acts of terrorism in person, forcing people at gun point with threats of child rape, conducting mass murder so people fled for their lives

Not once have the Israelis ever kept their word or acted in good faith when it comes to negotiations

The Jewish people were given 85% of Palestine, did the Palestinians vote for this? Is this democracy in action?

What’s the other side? How are the injustices inflicted upon the Palestinians in any way similar or equal to what the Israeli reality is today?

[Asam]

How about those who don't support his views but who think that your posts are even worse?

They should engage in debate but let’s not compare my views as a non racist with an outed bigot like him thank you

[Sangria]

They should engage in debate but let’s not compare my views as a non racist with an outed bigot like him thank you

I'm talking about your bad history. You said that the violence started with Israel against the Palestinians. Every history I've read traces the modern day violence back to violence by indigenous Arabs against the new Jewish immigrants.

[Asam]

I do note that you didn’t in anyway answer my question.

What’s a realistic solution, a way to bring peace?

Why can’t we just enforce existing international law?

As a starting point:

International boycott, divestment and sanctions
UN peacekeepers to prevent further Israeli annexation of Palestinian land and restore safety and security to the Palestinians and prevent the thuggish terror settler Gangs from bullying Palestinians
Some type of truth and reconciliation program
Right of return for Palestinian refugees or compensation for those who choose not to take up the option

As a pragmatist the most realistic end goal is a single state where all people are treated as equals (no civil law applied to Jews and military law applied to Palestinians)

[Asam]

I'm talking about your bad history. You said that the violence started with Israel against the Palestinians. Every history I've read traces the modern day violence back to violence by indigenous Arabs against the new Jewish immigrants.

Well perhaps because you’re reading history books written by those who want to promote that worldview

Jewish gangs were running around Palestinian communities after the second world way terrorizing Palestinians - many if the people in these gangs became the leaders of Israel

That’s a fact that isn’t reported in western media- ever heard of the deir yassine massacre? Hiundreds if Palestinian villages and towns were burned down to the ground and yet this doesn’t make its way into the history books

On YouTube

The generals son - Miko Peled , he tells the entire history of Israel - good starting point

[Sangria]

Well perhaps because you’re reading history books written by those who want to promote that worldview

Jewish gangs were running around Palestinian communities after the second world way terrorizing Palestinians - many if the people in these gangs became the leaders of Israel

That’s a fact that isn’t reported in western media- ever heard of the deir yassine massacre? Hiundreds if Palestinian villages and towns were burned down to the ground and yet this doesn’t make its way into the history books

On YouTube

The generals son - Miko Peled , he tells the entire history of Israel - good starting point

The histories I've read traces the violence to the increased influx of Jewish immigration pre-WWII, and the violence against them by the resident Arabs. Might even have been pre-WWI, although it may have been inter-war. Your above explanation is definitely wrong according to every history I've read. I'd like to know where you got it though.

[Asam]

The histories I've read traces the violence to the increased influx of Jewish immigration pre-WWII, and the violence against them by the resident Arabs. Might even have been pre-WWI, although it may have been inter-war. Your above explanation is definitely wrong according to every history I've read. I'd like to know where you got it though.

Miko Peled is a solid starting point (he has many lectures on YouTube you can watch), his father was one of the original signatories of the Israeli Declaration of Independence and a general in the Israeli army, he lost a close family member due to a terrorist attack and so is immensely qualified to speak on this subject, when people like him are willing and able to face the truth then it gives hope that others will get there

Of course there will be people who try character assassination to try to discredit him which is par for the course but you can tell when someone is telling the truth

[The North Bank]

Well perhaps because you’re reading history books written by those who want to promote that worldview

Jewish gangs were running around Palestinian communities after the second world way terrorizing Palestinians - many if the people in these gangs became the leaders of Israel

That’s a fact that isn’t reported in western media- ever heard of the deir yassine massacre? Hiundreds if Palestinian villages and towns were burned down to the ground and yet this doesn’t make its way into the history books

On YouTube

The generals son - Miko Peled , he tells the entire history of Israel - good starting point

The news are very careful to ensure the cloak of protection israel works under continues. 
For example if 20 Palestinian children get massacred in night raids on gaza. The news will say "children among those killed in hamas Israel clashes" . All the whatabouteries , the over amplifying of the roles of minor players, the trip down history lanes to the middle ages. All these are designed to maintain a protective cloak around Israel's aparthied. For a country to operate outside international law and still be championed as a beacon of democracy when its committing ethnic cleansing. It takes a historic amount of PR, at all levels, including chat rooms. 

[TepidT2O]

Why can’t we just enforce existing international law?

As a starting point:

International boycott, divestment and sanctions
UN peacekeepers to prevent further Israeli annexation of Palestinian land and restore safety and security to the Palestinians and prevent the thuggish terror settler Gangs from bullying Palestinians
Some type of truth and reconciliation program
Right of return for Palestinian refugees or compensation for those who choose not to take up the option

As a pragmatist the most realistic end goal is a single state where all people are treated as equals (no civil law applied to Jews and military law applied to Palestinians)

Well no one disagrees with people following international law.

But I also asked for a realistic solution. And a single state won’t be it.

Why not? Well, Israel was set up on the back of a genocidal antisemitic regime literally trying to kill every Jew on the planet. This of course wasn’t the first time someone had tried this, but was (by some extraordinary distance) the most effective.  Given these two millenia of persecution and attempts genocide I’m sure you can understand (if not agree with) Jews wanting a country where they could be safe from persecution by government.

Wel, why is this relevant? Because Hamas have the declared aim of killing all Jews on earth. Thus, the chances of any Israeli signing up for a situation where the government may be put into the hands of people who are grotesquely antisemitic and have the intention of attempting another genocide of the Jewish people is (to put it mildly) zero.

So I want a solution that is realistic, and by that, I mean realistic for both sides. Not finger pointing, not blame, solutions.

[Sangria]

Miko Peled is a solid starting point (he has many lectures on YouTube you can watch), his father was one of the original signatories of the Israeli Declaration of Independence and a general in the Israeli army, he lost a close family member due to a terrorist attack and so is immensely qualified to speak on this subject, when people like him are willing and able to face the truth then it gives hope that others will get there

Of course there will be people who try character assassination to try to discredit him which is par for the course but you can tell when someone is telling the truth

Er, how does that affect the historical record? If all the reputable histories trace the history of modern Arab-Israeli violence back to the indigenous reaction against the influx of Jewish immigrants pre-WWII, does your favouring a single youtube historian qualify the discrediting of existing histories?

Now I'm not one to cling to established histories in light of better readings of available evidence, and I think that revisionism is a very good thing, but it has to be backed by good arguments and evidence. Your above post is doing an awful job attempting it, by building up an individual by way of experience and ancestry. That's not how history works.

[Asam]

Well no one disagrees with people following international law.

But I also asked for a realistic solution. And a single state won’t be it.

Why not? Well, Israel was set up on the back of a genocidal antisemitic regime literally trying to kill every Jew on the planet. This of course wasn’t the first time someone had tried this, but was (by some extraordinary distance) the most effective.  Given these two millenia of persecution and attempts genocide I’m sure you can understand (if not agree with) Jews wanting a country where they could be safe from persecution by government.

Wel, why is this relevant? Because Hamas have the declared aim of killing all Jews on earth. Thus, the chances of any Israeli signing up for a situation where the government may be put into the hands of people who are grotesquely antisemitic and have the intention of attempting another genocide of the Jewish people is (to put it mildly) zero.

So I want a solution that is realistic, and by that, I mean realistic for both sides. Not finger pointing, not blame, solutions.

Hamas is not hell bent on killing Jews, if they were then why are there so few Jewish people killed by Hamas over the years? It’s rhetoric, Palestinians want their human rights and self determination & let’s not forget it was European Christians that are responsible for what happened to the Jews

The two state solution is a non starter, the map of Israel looks like a Swiss cheese, you cannot create two states, where are the borders of the Israeli state? The only logical answer is a single state with equal human rights, otherwise the can will continue to be kicked down the road

[Asam]

Er, how does that affect the historical record? If all the reputable histories trace the history of modern Arab-Israeli violence back to the indigenous reaction against the influx of Jewish immigrants pre-WWII, does your favouring a single youtube historian qualify the discrediting of existing histories?

Now I'm not one to cling to established histories in light of better readings of available evidence, and I think that revisionism is a very good thing, but it has to be backed by good arguments and evidence. Your above post is doing an awful job attempting it, by building up an individual by way of experience and ancestry. That's not how history works.

Why are you calling them immigrants? They’re not immigrants, who in the Palestinian government invited them? You facts are clearly biased if you thinking the Jews were immigrants

[Sangria]

Hamas is not hell bent on killing Jews, if they were then why are there so few Jewish people killed by Hamas over the years? It’s rhetoric, Palestinians want their human rights and self determination & let’s not forget it was European Christians that are responsible for what happened to the Jews

The two state solution is a non starter, the map of Israel looks like a Swiss cheese, you cannot create two states, where are the borders of the Israeli state? The only logical answer is a single state with equal human rights, otherwise the can will continue to be kicked down the road

That's the worst justification I've ever seen.

[Sangria]

Why are you calling them immigrants? They’re not immigrants, who in the Palestinian government invited them? You facts are clearly biased if you thinking the Jews were immigrants

What Palestinian government? It was the British, or maybe even the Ottomans, who were the government at the time. IIRC it was the Ottomans, so it was pre-WWI.

[Asam]

What Palestinian government? It was the British, or maybe even the Ottomans, who were the government at the time. IIRC it was the Ottomans, so it was pre-WWI.

Palestine had a government, moreover the people of the country had a democratic will and that was not to give their homeland over to foreign settler invaders

I don’t know how people can believe a narrative which says that somehow Israel was created in a vacuum and there was no government, if that was the case why has their been a Palestinian movement for self determination? How was it possible to give 85% of Palestine to the Jews if there was no Palestine?

This is such a red herring, let’s focus on the key things that actually matter:

Palestinians did not invite European settlers to their country
European settler Jews terrorised the Palestinians forcing them to leave
Palestinians have been been given their right to self determination
Israel is a racist apartheid state with exclusive rights for Jews, over 30 different laws which discriminate against Palestinians
Countless examples of daily racism and oppression against the Palestinians by the Jewish state, different standard of treatment by the police, different ownership rights over land

[Sangria]

Palestine had a government, moreover the people of the country had a democratic will and that was not to give their homeland over to foreign settler invaders

I don’t know how people can believe a narrative which says that somehow Israel was created in a vacuum and there was no government, if that was the case why has their been a Palestinian movement for self determination? How was it possible to give 85% of Palestine to the Jews if there was no Palestine?

This is such a red herring, let’s focus on the key things that actually matter:

Palestinians did not invite European settlers to their country
European settler Jews terrorised the Palestinians forcing them to leave
Palestinians have been been given their right to self determination
Israel is a racist apartheid state with exclusive rights for Jews, over 30 different laws which discriminate against Palestinians
Countless examples of daily racism and oppression against the Palestinians by the Jewish state, different standard of treatment by the police, different ownership rights over land

Quite a lot of text to obfuscate how you got the basic historical timeline wrong when talking about history. And using broad brush strokes to obscure your assumption of incorrect history by justifying your incorrect use of historical terms.

"This is such a red herring, let’s focus on the key things that actually matter:"

Ie. Let's not look at how I got things wrong. Let's talk about things I'd rather talk about instead.

[Jebediah]

Killing Palestinians and harvesting their organs for Israeli families without their parents permisssion

https://www.holocaustremembrance.com/resources/working-definitions-charters/working-definition-antisemitism

Contemporary examples of antisemitism in public life, the media, schools, the workplace, and in the religious sphere could, taking into account the overall context, include, but are not limited to:

Using the symbols and images associated with classic antisemitism (e.g., claims of Jews killing Jesus or blood libel) to characterize Israel or Israelis.

[Asam]

That's the worst justification I've ever seen.

More Palestinians are killed in a few weeks / month than by Hamas (ever)
You are more concerned about the damage the ant is doing to the elephant

There is simply no comparison between the death / injury toll of the Palestinians vs the Israelis yet where is your focus? Why is only your focus on the Deaths incurred on the Israeli side?

[Asam]

https://www.holocaustremembrance.com/resources/working-definitions-charters/working-definition-antisemitism

Contemporary examples of antisemitism in public life, the media, schools, the workplace, and in the religious sphere could, taking into account the overall context, include, but are not limited to:

Using the symbols and images associated with classic antisemitism (e.g., claims of Jews killing Jesus or blood libel) to characterize Israel or Israelis.

Look, this was reported and confirmed by the Israeli media, it happened in the 90s and early 00s

So get your facts right.

Historical anti Semitism is abhorrent and has no factual basis but that doesn’t mean the above didn’t happen when it was actually admitted to in public

[Sangria]

More Palestinians are killed in a few weeks / month than by Hamas (ever)
You are more concerned about the damage the ant is doing to the elephant

There is simply no comparison between the death / injury toll of the Palestinians vs the Israelis yet where is your focus? Why is only your focus on the Deaths incurred on the Israeli side?

Do you think that Muslims in Britain should be called names without these callers being done for hate speech? I'd assume so, since Muslims in Britain have killed more people for religious-related justifications than vice versa. When PM Johnson calls Muslim women "letterboxes" and so on, it's just rhetoric. He didn't kill anyone, therefore by your argument he should be excused for racial prejudice against Muslims.

[TepidT2O]

Hamas is not hell bent on killing Jews, if they were then why are there so few Jewish people killed by Hamas over the years? It’s rhetoric, Palestinians want their human rights and self determination & let’s not forget it was European Christians that are responsible for what happened to the Jews

The two state solution is a non starter, the map of Israel looks like a Swiss cheese, you cannot create two states, where are the borders of the Israeli state? The only logical answer is a single state with equal human rights, otherwise the can will continue to be kicked down the road

It is literally in their charter. Jews will not (and should not be expected to) form a state as a result.  Why should any Jew care about that the Holocaust was by white European Christians? They’ve been persecuted, vilified and exterminated from countries that are European and Muslim, history has told them this. And yet you genuinely expect them to put their lives hands who LITERALLY say they want to kill them all over again.

I get why a two state solution might be difficult fir the reasons you mentioned.

But I asked you for a realistic solution. Essentially your solution is to eradicate Israel, and to eradicate the global safe haven for Jews.

For the reasons stated, this is in no way a realistic solution for even the most reasonable of Israelis.

Try again.  But this time, remember that it had to be realistic for both sides, not just the side you support.

[Asam]

Quite a lot of text to obfuscate how you got the basic historical timeline wrong when talking about history. And using broad brush strokes to obscure your assumption of incorrect history by justifying your incorrect use of historical terms.

"This is such a red herring, let’s focus on the key things that actually matter:"

Ie. Let's not look at how I got things wrong. Let's talk about things I'd rather talk about instead.

We’re the Jews came from Europe immigrants or colonial settlers? Who is avoiding whose questions? If they are immigrants then which country did the apply to come in? Who approved their ability to live in that country?

It’s like comparing the invasion of the Americas with settler colonial Europeans

Did the native Americans have a government? No
The Europeans were “immigrants”
There was nothing here before they came
Let’s just gloss over the genocide and terror they inflicted

Absolute moral cowardice

[Sangria]

Look, this was reported and confirmed by the Israeli media, it happened in the 90s and early 00s

So get your facts right.

Historical anti Semitism is abhorrent and has no factual basis but that doesn’t mean the above didn’t happen when it was actually admitted to in public

Says someone who talks about the Palestinian government in the period when there was an influx of Jewish immigrants.

[Sangria]

We’re the Jews came from Europe immigrants or colonial settlers? Who is avoiding whose questions? If they are immigrants then which country did the apply to come in? Who approved their ability to live in that country?

It’s like comparing the invasion of the Americas with settler colonial Europeans

Did the native Americans have a government? No
The Europeans were “immigrants”
There was nothing here before they came
Let’s just gloss over the genocide and terror they inflicted

Absolute moral cowardice

I don't know what the entrance policies were back then. IIRC the timeline was modern Zionism leading to an increase of Jewish immigrants during the Ottoman period. The rate of Jewish immigration into the area increased greatly during the British mandate post-Balfour declaration, and there were terrorist acts by resident Arabs against the Jewish newcomers.

Now I never ask questions that I don't intend to answer myself, so assuming you're the same, would you care to answer your above questions? Since you ask about who approved their immigration, presumably you'll have a good idea of entrance policies of the Ottoman Empire and British Mandate in Palestine that you can explain to a know-nothing like me.

Will you answer your questions, or are you going throw insults at me again? "Absolute moral cowardice".