Author Topic: War on Drugs  (Read 107458 times)

Offline doc_antonio

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Re: War on Drugs
« Reply #280 on: July 5, 2012, 03:27:20 pm »
Yes. It's about four posts up on this very page.

ahh yes, you see i'm not the most observant ;D thanks.

EDIT: She's a dick.
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Offline rednich85

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Re: War on Drugs
« Reply #281 on: July 5, 2012, 03:41:22 pm »
Hilarious.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/ykwaXsQY6Eg&amp;list=PL2E816A51355A8C97&amp;feature=plpp_play_all" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/ykwaXsQY6Eg&amp;list=PL2E816A51355A8C97&amp;feature=plpp_play_all</a>

Is this really what its come to?

Its a fucking pantomime.

She knows she looks like an idiot but she has to toe the party line, even at the expense of her own credibility.
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Offline Corkboy

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Re: War on Drugs
« Reply #282 on: July 6, 2012, 12:05:31 pm »
Numbers Tell of Failure in Drug War

By EDUARDO PORTER
Published: July 3, 2012

When policy makers in Washington worry about Mexico these days, they think in terms of a handful of numbers: Mexico’s 19,500 hectares devoted to poppy cultivation for heroin; its 17,500 hectares growing cannabis; the 95 percent of American cocaine imports brought by Mexican cartels through Mexico and Central America.

They are thinking about the wrong numbers. If there is one number that embodies the seemingly intractable challenge imposed by the illegal drug trade on the relationship between the United States and Mexico, it is $177.26. That is the retail price, according to Drug Enforcement Administration data, of one gram of pure cocaine from your typical local pusher. That is 74 percent cheaper than it was 30 years ago.

This number contains pretty much all you need to evaluate the Mexican and American governments’ “war” to eradicate illegal drugs from the streets of the United States. They would do well to heed its message. What it says is that the struggle on which they have spent billions of dollars and lost tens of thousands of lives over the last four decades has failed.

Full article

Offline Anywhichwayicant

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Re: War on Drugs
« Reply #283 on: July 11, 2012, 01:13:57 am »
<a href="http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/.element/apps/cvp/3.0/swf/cnn_416x234_embed.swf?context=embed&amp;videoId=bestoftv/2012/07/02/piers-morgan-oliver-stone-economics-of-pot.cnn" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/.element/apps/cvp/3.0/swf/cnn_416x234_embed.swf?context=embed&amp;videoId=bestoftv/2012/07/02/piers-morgan-oliver-stone-economics-of-pot.cnn</a>

Offline Corkboy

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Re: War on Drugs
« Reply #284 on: July 12, 2012, 10:08:26 am »
So you know this idea of a "gateway" drug? The theory is that if you give access to "softer" drugs, the person using them will inevitably graduate to "harder" drugs. Well, they found the ultimate gateway drug.

UF study shows long-term drug abuse starts with alcohol

GAINESVILLE, Fla. — Alcohol — not marijuana — is the gateway drug that leads adolescents down the path toward more serious substances, a new University of Florida study shows.

The findings may not settle a decades-old debate over how drug abuse begins, but it could help educators and policymakers build more effective drug-prevention programs, said Adam Barry, an assistant professor and researcher in the College of Health and Human Performance.

“By recognizing the important predictive role of alcohol and delaying initiation of alcohol use, school officials and public health leaders can positively impact the progression of substance use,” he said. “I am confident in our findings and the clear implication¬¬s they have for school-based prevention programs. By delaying and/or preventing the use of alcohol, these programs can indirectly reduce the rate of use of other substances.”

The study appears in the August issue of the Journal of School Health.

Barry used a nationally representative sample of high school seniors, evaluating data collected through the annual Monitoring the Future study. The study, conducted by the Institute for Social Research at the University of Michigan, uses questionnaires to examine the behaviors, attitudes and values of secondary school students, college students and young adults. Once collected, the data is made available for evaluation by other researchers and institutions.

Barry’s study focused on data collected from 14,577 high school seniors from 120 public and private schools in the United States.

He evaluated whether the students had ever used any of 11 substances, including licit substances such as alcohol and tobacco, as well as illicit substances like marijuana, cocaine, heroin, LSD, amphetamines, tranquilizers and other narcotics. The results indicated that alcohol, not marijuana or tobacco, was most often the first substance students tried, he said.

In the sample of students, alcohol also represented the most commonly used substance, with 72.2 percent of students reporting alcohol consumption at some point in their lifetime. Comparatively, 45 percent of students reported using tobacco, and 43.3 percent cited marijuana use.

In addition, the drug use documented found that substance use typically begins with the most socially acceptable drugs, such as alcohol and cigarettes, then proceeds to marijuana use and finally to other illegal, harder drugs. Moreover, the study showed that students who used alcohol exhibited a significantly greater likelihood — up to 16 times — of licit and illicit substance use.

“These findings add further credence to the literature identifying alcohol as the gateway drug to other substance use,” he said.

Barry also cited the important role of parents and their alcohol-related attitudes and policies in the home.

“Parents should know that a strict, zero-tolerance policy at home is best. Increasing alcohol-specific rules and decreasing availability will help prevent an adolescent’s alcohol use,” he said. “The longer that alcohol initiation is delayed, the more likely that other drug or substance use will be delayed or prevented as well.”

source

Offline RedRabbit

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Re: War on Drugs
« Reply #285 on: July 12, 2012, 10:51:49 am »
Two points:

1. The conclusion is hardly a surprise. I doubt anyone was shocked when they did the maths.
2. Has he ever met a teenager?

Offline -Q-

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Re: War on Drugs
« Reply #286 on: July 12, 2012, 10:57:54 am »
So you know this idea of a "gateway" drug? The theory is that if you give access to "softer" drugs, the person using them will inevitably graduate to "harder" drugs. Well, they found the ultimate gateway drug.

There are no "gateway drugs" it is more a lifestyle and experiences that ultimately leads to drug abuse, whether that is alcohol, pot or whatever.  People who end up on heroin likely started on alcohol and pot but they used that drugs for the same reasons, correlation not causation.  They didn't end up on heroin because they had a sip of their mum's sangria aged fourteen.  They used heroin and pot and booze to numb the same pain.
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Offline WhoHe

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Re: War on Drugs
« Reply #287 on: July 12, 2012, 02:48:28 pm »
I would not call pot a gateway drug but because pot is illegal then you obviously have to get it from a dealer who may deal with class A drugs as well (this was certainly the case when I started in the dark ages - 70's) so you may be tempted or peer pressure gets to you. A mate of mine certainly was and ended up on coke, then crack - which was pretty new at this time - and this kind of invevitably led to smack and years of grief.

Offline RojoLeón

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Re: War on Drugs
« Reply #288 on: July 21, 2012, 02:33:46 am »
http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/europe/120718/drug-decriminalization-portugal-addicts

Drug decriminalization in Portugal decreases number of addicts (great for public health - bad for the 'war on drugs' economy)

After 11 years, the effectiveness of the policy has been measured.

On July 1, 2001, Portugal decriminalized every imaginable drug, from marijuana, to cocaine, to heroin. Some thought Lisbon would become a drug tourist haven, others predicted usage rates among youths to surge.

Eleven years later, it turns out they were both wrong.

Over a decade has passed since Portugal changed its philosophy from labeling drug users as criminals to labeling them as people affected by a disease. This time lapse has allowed statistics to develop and in time, has made Portugal an example to follow.

First, some clarification.

Portugal's move to decriminalize does not mean people can carry around, use, and sell drugs free from police interference. That would be legalization. Rather, all drugs are "decriminalized," meaning drug possession, distribution, and use is still illegal. While distribution and trafficking is still a criminal offense, possession and use is moved out of criminal courts and into a special court where each offender's unique situation is judged by legal experts, psychologists, and social workers. Treatment and further action is decided in these courts, where addicts and drug use is treated as a public health service rather than referring it to the justice system (like the US), reports Fox News.

More from GlobalPost: Uruguay’s government, new pot dealer on the block

The resulting effect: a drastic reduction in addicts, with Portuguese officials and reports highlighting that this number, at 100,000 before the new policy was enacted, has been halved in the following 10 years. Portugal's drug usage rates are now among the lowest of EU member states, according to the same report.

One more outcome: a lot less sick people. Drug related diseases including STDs and overdoses have been reduced even more than usage rates, which experts believe is the result of the government offering treatment with no threat of legal ramifications to addicts.

While this policy is by no means news, the statistics and figures, which take years to develop and subsequently depict the effects of the change, seem to be worth noting. In a country like America, which may take the philosophy of criminalization a bit far (more than half of America's federal inmates are in prison on drug convictions), other alternatives must, and to a small degree, are being discussed.

For policymakers or people simply interested in this topic, cases like Portugal are a great place to start.

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Re: War on Drugs
« Reply #289 on: July 23, 2012, 10:52:14 am »
I've heard the Polish are going to follow Portugal's path in dealing with drugs.
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Offline RojoLeón

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Re: War on Drugs
« Reply #290 on: July 25, 2012, 04:55:52 pm »
http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2012/07/2012721152715628181.html

Mexican official: CIA 'manages' drug trade
Spokesman for Chihuahua state says US agencies don't want to end drug trade, a claim denied by other Mexican officials.

Juarez, Mexico - The US Central Intelligence Agency and other international security forces "don't fight drug traffickers", a spokesman for the Chihuahua state government in northern Mexico has told Al Jazeera, instead "they try to manage the drug trade".

Allegations about official complicity in the drug business are nothing new when they come from activists, professors, campaigners or even former officials. However, an official spokesman for the authorities in one of Mexico's most violent states - one which directly borders Texas - going on the record with such accusations is unique.

"It's like pest control companies, they only control," Guillermo Terrazas Villanueva, the Chihuahua spokesman, told Al Jazeera last month at his office in Juarez. "If you finish off the pests, you are out of a job. If they finish the drug business, they finish their jobs."

A spokesman for the CIA in Washington wouldn't comment on the accusations directly, instead he referred Al Jazeera to an official website.

Accusations are 'baloney'

Villanueva is not a high ranking official and his views do not represent Mexico's foreign policy establishment. Other more senior officials in Chihuahua State, including the mayor of Juarez, dismissed the claims as "baloney".

"I think the CIA and DEA [US Drug Enforcement Agency] are on the same side as us in fighting drug gangs," Hector Murguia, the mayor of Juarez, told Al Jazeera during an interview inside his SUV. "We have excellent collaboration with the US."

Under the Merida Initiative, the US Congress has approved more than $1.4bn in drug war aid for Mexico, providing attack helicopters, weapons and training for police and judges. 

More than 55,000 people have died in drug related violence in Mexico since December 2006. Privately, residents and officials across Mexico's political spectrum often blame the lethal cocktail of US drug consumption and the flow of high-powered weapons smuggled south of the border for causing much of the carnage.

Drug war 'illusions'


Meeting the Juarez cartel

"The war on drugs is an illusion," Hugo Almada Mireles, professor at the Autonomous University of Juarez and author of several books, told Al Jazeera. "It's a reason to intervene in Latin America."

"The CIA wants to control the population; they don't want to stop arms trafficking to Mexico, look at [Operation] Fast and Furious,” he said, referencing a botched US exercise where automatic weapons were sold to criminals in the hope that security forces could trace where the guns ended up.

The Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms lost track of 1,700 guns as part of the operation, including an AK-47 used in 2010 the murder of Brian Terry, a Customs and Border Protection Agent. 

Blaming the gringos for Mexico's problems has been a popular sport south of the Rio Grande ever since the Mexican-American war of the 1840s, when the US conquered most of present day California, Utah, Nevada, Arizona and New Mexico from its southern neighbour. But operations such as Fast and Furious show that reality can be stranger than fiction when it comes to the drug war and relations between the US and Mexico. If the case hadn't been proven, the idea that US agents were actively putting weapons into the hands of Mexican gangsters would sound absurd to many.

'Conspiracy theories'

"I think it's easy to become cynical about American and other countries' involvement in Latin America around drugs," Kevin Sabet, a former senior adviser to the White House on drug control policy, told Al Jazeera. "Statements [accusing the CIA of managing the drug trade] should be backed up with evidence… I don’t put much stake in it."

Villanueva's accusations "might be a way to get some attention to his region, which is understandable but not productive or grounded in reality", Sabet said. "We have sort of 'been there done that' with CIA conspiracy theories."

In 1996, the San Jose Mercury News published Dark Alliance, a series of investigative reports linking CIA missions in Nicaragua with the explosion of crack cocaine consumption in America's ghettos.

In order to fund Contra rebels fighting Nicaragua's socialist government, the CIA partnered with Colombian cartels to move drugs into Los Angeles, sending profits back to Central America, the series alleged.

"There is no question in my mind that people affiliated with, or on the payroll of, the CIA were involved in drug trafficking," US Senator John Kerry said at the time, in response to the series.

Other newspapers, including the Washington Post and the Los Angeles Times, slammed Dark Alliance, and the editor of the Mercury News eventually wrote that the paper had over-stated some elements in the story and made mistakes in the journalistic process, but that he stood by many of the key conclusions.

Widespread rumours


US government has neglected border corruption

"It's true, they want to control it," a mid-level official with the Secretariat Gobernacion in Juarez, Mexico's equivalent to the US Department of Homeland Security, told Al Jazeera of the CIA and DEA's policing of the drug trade. The officer, speaking on the condition of anonymity, said he knew the allegations to be correct, based on discussions he had with US officials working in Juarez.

Acceptance of these claims within some elements of Mexico's government and security services shows the difficulty in pursuing effective international action against the drug trade.

Jesús Zambada Niebla, a leading trafficker from the Sinaloa cartel currently awaiting trial in Chicago, has said he was working for the US Drug Enforcement Agency during his days as a trafficker, and was promised immunity from prosecution.

"Under that agreement, the Sinaloa Cartel under the leadership of [Jesus Zambada's] father, Ismael Zambada and 'Chapo' Guzmán were given carte blanche to continue to smuggle tonnes of illicit drugs... into... the United States, and were protected by the United States government from arrest and prosecution in return for providing information against rival cartels," Zambada's lawyers wrote as part of his defence. "Indeed, the Unites States government agents aided the leaders of the Sinaloa Cartel."

The Sinaloa cartel is Mexico's oldest and most powerful trafficking organisation, and some analysts believe security forces in the US and Mexico favour the group over its rivals.

Joaquin "El Chapo", the cartel's billionaire leader and one of the world's most wanted men, escaped from a Mexican prison in 2001 by sneaking into a laundry truck - likely with collaboration from guards - further stoking rumours that leading traffickers have complicit friends in high places. 

"It would be easy for the Mexican army to capture El Chapo," Mireles said. "But this is not the objective." He thinks the authorities on both sides of the border are happy to have El Chapo on the loose, as his cartel is easier to manage and his drug money is recycled back into the broader economy. Other analysts consider this viewpoint a conspiracy theory and blame ineptitude and low level corruption for El Chapo's escape, rather than a broader plan from government agencies.

After an election hit by reported irregularities, Enrique Pena Nieto from the Institutional Revolutionary Party (PRI) is set to be sworn in as Mexico's president on December 1.

He wants to open a high-level dialogue with the US about the drug war, but has said legalisation of some drugs is not an option. Some hardliners in the US worry that Nieto will make a deal with some cartels, in order to reduce violence.

"I am hopeful that he will not return to the PRI party of the past which was corrupt and had a history of turning a blind eye to the drug cartels," said Michael McCaul, a Republican Congressman from Texas.

Regardless of what position a new administration takes in order to calm the violence and restore order, it is likely many Mexicans - including government officials such as Chihuahua spokesman Guillermo Villanueva - will believe outside forces want the drug trade to continue.

The widespread view linking the CIA to the drug trade - whether or not the allegations are true - speaks volumes about officials' mutual mistrust amid ongoing killings and the destruction of civic life in Mexico.

"We have good soldiers and policemen," Villanueva said. "But you won't resolve this problem with bullets. We need education and jobs."

Offline RojoLeón

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Re: War on Drugs
« Reply #291 on: July 25, 2012, 04:57:44 pm »
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-0725-pot-ban-20120725,0,3171935.story

L.A. City Council bans medical marijuana dispensaries
L.A. will order all 762 medical pot dispensaries to close immediately, but City Council also asks staff to draw up a measure allowing original shops to stay open.

July 25, 2012

In what could be a turning point in the city's seemingly unending battle to regulate the distribution of medical marijuana, the Los Angeles City Council voted unanimously Tuesday to ban all pot dispensaries, while also opening the door to possibly let some remain.

Under the ban, all of the 762 dispensaries registered in the city will be sent letters ordering them to shut down immediately. Those that don't comply may face legal action from the city.

Medical marijuana activists erupted in jeers after the decision, and police officers were called into the council chambers to quell them. Some activists threatened to sue. Others vowed to draft a ballot initiative to overturn the ban.

"We're not going to make this easy for the city of Los Angeles," said Don Duncan, California director of Americans for Safe Access.

The new ordinance will allow patients and their caregivers to grow and share marijuana in groups of three people or fewer. But activists complain that few patients have the time or skills for that, with one dispensary owner saying it costs at least $5,000 to grow the plant at home.

Councilman Jose Huizar said the ban, which received a last-minute show of support from Mayor Antonio Villaraigosa and police Chief Charlie Beck, will help bring peace to neighborhoods that he says have been tormented by problem dispensaries.

"Relief is on its way," he said, noting that the ban would allow the city to close shops without having to prove that they are violating nuisance or land-use laws, as is the case now.

But the issue was clouded when the council also voted to instruct city staff to draw up a separate ordinance that would allow dozens of pot shops to remain open. Officials said that proposal, which would grant immunity to shops that existed before a 2007 moratorium on new dispensaries, could be back to the council for consideration in three months.

Huizar voted against that motion, which he said might give the public "false hope" that the ban would not be enforced.

But Councilman Dennis Zine, who voted for both the ban and the plan to allow some dispensaries to stay open, suggested that police might not enforce the ban against the city's original pot shops while the new ordinance is being drawn up.

"The officers will be given that information and we will concentrate on the other locations initially," Zine said.

However, Councilman Paul Koretz, who proposed the ordinance to allow some shops to stay open, called Tuesday's prohibition "a ban until otherwise noted."

How cities should regulate distribution of pot has been a gray area since California voters passed a 1996 initiative legalizing medical marijuana even though any sale of marijuana remains illegal under federal law. Officials are looking to an upcoming ruling by the state Supreme Court for clarity on whether cities can regulate and ban dispensaries, but that may not come for another year.

Council members said that in the meantime, something had to be done to reduce the number of dispensaries, which outnumber Starbucks coffee shops in Los Angeles two to one, according to Councilman Paul Krekorian.

Beck, who appeared before the council, said dispensaries can be hot spots for crime, citing burglaries, armed robberies and killings. In a letter to lawmakers, he said most pot shops are "for-profit businesses engaged in the sale of recreational marijuana to healthy young adults."

But those who support dispensaries say the ban will simply drive distribution of marijuana underground.

That's what Steven Lubell, an attorney who represents several of the city's original dispensaries, predicted. "Is it going to go away? No," said. "It's going to go to a darker side."

(for anyone who thinks 'pot' dispensaries attract crime, have they ever heard of bars/pubs/clubs? Evidently not..Expect much legal wrangling to come)

Offline Giovanni

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Re: War on Drugs
« Reply #292 on: July 26, 2012, 11:00:28 am »
The idea that pot dispensaries attract crime is fucking ridiculious.

As a famous man once said..

Herb is the healing of a nation. Alcohol is the destruction.
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Offline RojoLeón

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Re: War on Drugs
« Reply #293 on: July 26, 2012, 04:55:02 pm »
They do definitely attract crime. Marijuana is illegal under federal law - ergo they attract crime. QED. With logic like this, we will see an escalation of drug enforcement/drug cartel violence (ala contemporary Mexico) take hold in the sourthern USA.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2012/07/la-crime-lowest-big-cities.html

I don't have anything to back this up, but I am speculating that the reduction in violent crime in LA correlates with medical marijuana laws.

Quote
L.A. NOW

L.A. has lowest crime among big U.S. cities, midyear figures show
July 11, 2012 |  6:33 pm

Midyear report shows L.A. crime is lowest among big U.S. cities
At the year’s midway point, crime rates in Los Angeles generally have continued their decade-long decline, according to police figures released Wednesday.

The crime totals were announced by Los Angeles Police Chief Charlie Beck and Mayor Antonio Villaraigosa at a morning news conference. They heralded the continued fall in violent crimes with Beck calling Los Angeles “the safest big city in America.”

Through the end of June, the city experienced just shy of 9,000 violent crimes, a category that includes homicides, rapes, robberies and aggravated assaults. The total marked a nearly 9% drop compared with  the same time last year, according to LAPD figures. With 147 homicides committed so far this year, the rate of killing is about the same as 2010 and puts the city on pace to have fewer than 300 killings for the third consecutive year –- a historic benchmark that is four times lower than the peak Los Angeles reached in the late 1990s. Robbery and aggravated assaults also are down, and the number of rapes has risen slightly in 2012.

Gang crimes, a major factor in the city’s crime landscape, also fell. Gang-related killings are down 8%, while the 405 people shot by gang gunfire represented a 21% drop.

The decline in violent crime was tempered somewhat by property-related crime statistics. Overall the number of burglaries, auto thefts, and other types of thefts fell by 1% throughout the city, but there were several areas of the city that saw significant increases. In areas patrolled by the LAPD’s Central Bureau, for example, thefts rose by 9%.  The department’s South Bureau also had increases.

I speculate we will see a spike, followed by an upward trend in violent crime, citywide once the pot dispensaries are closed.

Offline Corkboy

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Re: War on Drugs
« Reply #294 on: August 21, 2012, 11:39:02 am »
Prosecutor Defeated by Glaring Stupidity of Pot Laws

Jacob Sullum|Aug. 14, 2012

A Kansas defense attorney reports:

    I had a jury trial this morning on level 3 possession with intent MJ, level 4 possession drug paraphernalia and level 10 no drug tax stamp. During voir dire, my almost all white, middle-class, middle-aged jury went into full rebellion against the prosecutor stating that they wouldn't convict even if the client's guilt was proven beyond a reasonable doubt -- almost all of them! They felt marijuana should be legalized, what he does with it is his own business and that the jails are already full of people for this silly charge. Then, when the potential jurors found out that the State wanted him to pay taxes on illegal drugs, they went nuts. One woman from the back said how stupid this was and why are we even here wasting our time. A "suit" from the front said this was the most ridiculous thing he'd ever heard. The prosecutor ended up dismissing the case. Judge gave me a dismissal with prejudice. I'm still laughing my ass off over this one.  I have NEVER seen a full on mutiny by an entire jury pool before. Easiest win ever!

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Offline Malaysian Kopite

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Re: War on Drugs
« Reply #295 on: August 21, 2012, 12:07:28 pm »
Prosecutor Defeated by Glaring Stupidity of Pot Laws

Jacob Sullum|Aug. 14, 2012

A Kansas defense attorney reports:

    I had a jury trial this morning on level 3 possession with intent MJ, level 4 possession drug paraphernalia and level 10 no drug tax stamp. During voir dire, my almost all white, middle-class, middle-aged jury went into full rebellion against the prosecutor stating that they wouldn't convict even if the client's guilt was proven beyond a reasonable doubt -- almost all of them! They felt marijuana should be legalized, what he does with it is his own business and that the jails are already full of people for this silly charge. Then, when the potential jurors found out that the State wanted him to pay taxes on illegal drugs, they went nuts. One woman from the back said how stupid this was and why are we even here wasting our time. A "suit" from the front said this was the most ridiculous thing he'd ever heard. The prosecutor ended up dismissing the case. Judge gave me a dismissal with prejudice. I'm still laughing my ass off over this one.  I have NEVER seen a full on mutiny by an entire jury pool before. Easiest win ever!

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Offline scatman

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Re: War on Drugs
« Reply #296 on: August 21, 2012, 12:27:51 pm »
comments are great on that ;D
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Offline Corkboy

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Re: War on Drugs
« Reply #297 on: August 28, 2012, 09:40:04 am »
Cannabis more damaging to under-18s, study suggests

First convincing evidence that cannabis has a different effect on young brains than on those of adults

Adolescents who are regular users of cannabis are at risk of permanent damage to their intelligence, attention span and memory, according to the results of research covering nearly four decades.

The long-term study which followed a group of over 1,000 people from birth to the age of 38 has produced the first convincing evidence, say scientists, that cannabis has a different and more damaging effect on young brains than on those of adults.

Around 5% of the group used cannabis at least once a week in adolescence or were considered dependent on it. Between the age of 13 and 38, when all members of the group were given a range of psychological tests, the IQ of those who had been habitual cannabis users in their youth had dropped by eight points on average.

Giving up cannabis made little difference – what mattered was the age at which young people began to use it. Those who started after the age of 18 did not have the same IQ decline.

"This work took an amazing scientific effort," said Professor Terrie Moffitt of King's College London's Institute of Psychiatry, one of the authors.

"We followed almost 1,000 participants, we tested their mental abilities as kids before they ever tried cannabis, and we tested them again 25 years later after some participants became chronic users.

"Participants were frank about their substance abuse habits because they trust our confidentiality guarantee, and 96% of the original participants stuck with the study from 1972 to today.

"It's such a special study that I'm fairly confident that cannabis is safe for over-18 brains, but risky for under-18 brains."

The research, on people in Dunedin, New Zealand, was carried out by researchers from King's College and Duke University, North Carolina in the United States and published online by PNAS (Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences).

"Marijuana is not harmless, particularly for adolescents," said Madeline Meier from Duke, one of the researchers. While eight IQ points on a scale where the mean is 100 may not sound a lot, she said, a drop from 100 to 92 represents a move from the 50th to the 29th percentile. Higher IQs correlate with higher education and income, better health and a longer life.

"Somebody who loses eight IQ points as an adolescent may be disadvantaged compared to their same-age peers for years to come," Meier said. The study took into account the education of the participants, which can be disrupted by drug use.

The authors say that young people tend today to think that cannabis is harmless. "Increasing efforts should be directed toward delaying the onset of cannabis use by young people, particularly given the recent trend of younger ages of cannabis-use initiation in the United States and evidence that fewer adolescents believe that cannabis use is associated with serious risk," says the paper.

"The simple message is that substance use is not healthy for kids," said Avshalom Caspi, of Duke and King's, one of the leaders of the study. "That's true for tobacco, alcohol, and apparently for cannabis."

Robin Murray, professor of psychiatric research at King's, who was not involved in the study, said the paper was impressive and if the same results were found in other research, public education campaigns should be launched to warn of the dangers of cannabis to younger people. "The Dunedin sample is probably the most intensively studied cohort in the world and therefore the data is very good. The researchers, who I know well, are among the best epidemiologists in the world. Therefore, although one should never be convinced by a single study, I take the findings very seriously.

"There are a lot of clinical and educational anecdotal reports that cannabis users tend to be less successful in their educational achievement, marriages and occupations. It is of course part of folklore among young people that some heavy users of cannabis seem to gradually lose their abilities and end up achieving much less than one would have anticipated. This study provides one explanation as to why this might be the case."

source

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Re: War on Drugs
« Reply #298 on: August 28, 2012, 09:51:46 am »
This backs up other work about the harmful effects of cannabis...

I went to a course by someone from UCL (I think) and she gave a good argument about the effects of cannabis on the under 20s....

She suggested that the issue was about neuron cross linking....

At a young age you form lots and lots of links between neurons.. Huge numbers...

As you go through puberty the number is rationalised as the pathways that will serve us for life are set down.

She was suggesting that this rationalisation was disrupted quite considerably by cannabis use under the age of 20 and as a result they would never really recover afterwards.....

Seems to be saying the same kind of thing.....
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Re: War on Drugs
« Reply #299 on: August 28, 2012, 10:01:55 am »
I've heard it anecdotally from shrinks before too.

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Re: War on Drugs
« Reply #300 on: August 28, 2012, 10:31:20 am »
Quote
"It's such a special study that I'm fairly confident that cannabis is safe for over-18 brains, but risky for under-18 brains."

Get in!!


As for under 18's try and swerve the weed for as long as you think possible, to be on the safe side.
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Re: War on Drugs
« Reply #301 on: August 28, 2012, 10:37:24 am »
Hmmm... i started when i was 16, pretty heavy on it too, i'm a plumber by trade and now in the office running the drawings for building sites, with a look to go into architecture... hasn't really effected me all that much.

although i can see how it could effect others.. but it goes back to the fact, everyone's different. I wouldn't be inclined to overly drink, or do other drugs, yet there are alcoholics and junkies.
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Re: War on Drugs
« Reply #302 on: August 28, 2012, 11:00:01 am »
Hmmm... i started when i was 16, pretty heavy on it too, i'm a plumber by trade and now in the office running the drawings for building sites, with a look to go into architecture... hasn't really effected me all that much.

although i can see how it could effect others.. but it goes back to the fact, everyone's different. I wouldn't be inclined to overly drink, or do other drugs, yet there are alcoholics and junkies.
Thing is, you don't know if it's affected you or not.....

It's almost impossible to show on a one off person, larger studies are starting to show a deleterious effect on people under 20 (the trial I saw) or under 18.

I'm pretty sure there will be similar deleterious effects from alchol though
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Re: War on Drugs
« Reply #303 on: August 28, 2012, 11:01:05 am »
Get in!!


As for under 18's try and swerve the weed for as long as you think possible, to be on the safe side.
Good advice I reckon.....

It's pretty much what anyone who worked with kids had been saying anecdotally too
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Re: War on Drugs
« Reply #304 on: August 28, 2012, 11:29:52 am »
No fucking shit.

If I drink a shit load of vodka when I'm young it will affect my kindey more than If i drunk it was a 24 yr old.

Who'd of thought it?
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Re: War on Drugs
« Reply #305 on: August 28, 2012, 11:31:58 am »
Hmmm... i started when i was 16, pretty heavy on it too, i'm a plumber by trade and now in the office running the drawings for building sites, with a look to go into architecture... hasn't really effected me all that much.

although i can see how it could effect others.. but it goes back to the fact, everyone's different. I wouldn't be inclined to overly drink, or do other drugs, yet there are alcoholics and junkies.
Everyone just has to be responsible and learn their boundaries. What works for one person won't neccessarily work for someone else.

Some people are just more prone to addictive subtances.

I'm trying to cut down from 3 spliffs a day to just the 1 after work at the momment.
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Re: War on Drugs
« Reply #306 on: August 28, 2012, 12:09:20 pm »
...the State wanted him to pay taxes on illegal drugs...

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Re: War on Drugs
« Reply #307 on: August 28, 2012, 12:18:23 pm »
No fucking shit.

If I drink a shit load of vodka when I'm young it will affect my kindey more than If i drunk it was a 24 yr old.

Who'd of thought it?
Actually, I don't think you're right there...

The brain's development to the rest of your body.  It's somewhat unique in its development.

It gets more and more complex as you get older, and then (about the time of puberty) it becomes more streamlined, it dispenses with unnecessary pathways.

Cannabis disrupts that it seems.
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
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Offline doc_antonio

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Re: War on Drugs
« Reply #308 on: August 28, 2012, 12:48:55 pm »
As would other drugs like Alcohol...
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Re: War on Drugs
« Reply #309 on: August 28, 2012, 02:23:08 pm »
As would other drugs like Alcohol...
Quite possibly, but the article was highlighting the fact that cannabis is relatively more dangerous for kids
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
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Offline Giovanni

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Re: War on Drugs
« Reply #310 on: August 28, 2012, 02:32:57 pm »
Quite possibly, but the article was highlighting the fact that cannabis is relatively more dangerous for kids
Is that not true for all drugs though lad?

A childs body is still developing. It's hardly ground breaking news that.
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Re: War on Drugs
« Reply #311 on: August 28, 2012, 02:47:10 pm »
Is that not true for all drugs though lad?

A childs body is still developing. It's hardly ground breaking news that.

No, I think it is. Cannabis has a specific quality that makes it bad for kids. I appreciate drugs are bad for kids, m'kay but I think this is a very specific example.

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Re: War on Drugs
« Reply #312 on: August 28, 2012, 02:59:59 pm »
No, I think it is. Cannabis has a specific quality that makes it bad for kids. I appreciate drugs are bad for kids, m'kay but I think this is a very specific example.
mmm.

It sounds like typical government backed hysteria to me to be honest but then I see the quote which says its harmless for adults so I dunno.

Just fucking legalise it and let us get on with our lives

cyas

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Re: War on Drugs
« Reply #313 on: August 28, 2012, 03:04:49 pm »
mmm.

It sounds like typical government backed hysteria to me to be honest but then I see the quote which says its harmless for adults so I dunno.

Just fucking legalise it and let us get on with our lives


Don't agree with the government bit....

As I said, UCL have similar findings....

Legalise or not, for me the issue says more about the way we bring up our kids and the freedoms they may have rather too soon.

Maybe I'm old fashioned?
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
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Offline doc_antonio

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Re: War on Drugs
« Reply #314 on: August 28, 2012, 04:43:10 pm »
Legalise or not, for me the issue says more about the way we bring up our kids and the freedoms they may have rather too soon.

Maybe I'm old fashioned?

but again the same could be said about drink, or cigarettes... i know not many people on here can hnestly say they never touched a drop of alcohol before they were 18.. i was drinking when i was 16 and started smoking cigarettes when i was 18.. the best a parent can do is give their kid advice on the different substances and hope that they're sensible enough not to do anything stronger than alcohol (i still believe its a much stronger drug than cannabis, regardless of these 'new findings')
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Re: War on Drugs
« Reply #315 on: August 28, 2012, 04:50:30 pm »
but again the same could be said about drink, or cigarettes... i know not many people on here can hnestly say they never touched a drop of alcohol before they were 18.. i was drinking when i was 16 and started smoking cigarettes when i was 18.

Alcohol can be bad for for you. Cigarettes are nothing but bad. The point is that neither are peculiarly bad for you as a teenager (that I know of) whereas cannabis, according to this study is not harmful when you've grown up but harmful if you haven't.

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Re: War on Drugs
« Reply #316 on: August 28, 2012, 05:35:11 pm »
But surely like every thing else it comes down to the user.. I'm not saying 'fuck that weed is brilliant everyone smoke it' I know there are problems (to some, like my brother) but each person is different. Did they take into account the lifestyle of the users in question? Such as where they come from, low income family home, rich kids etc.? There would be more privileges given to the 'rich kids' extra tutoring etc. whilst the low income family would only be able to pay for school..
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Re: War on Drugs
« Reply #317 on: August 28, 2012, 08:35:14 pm »
One point I just read on another forum is this. If you smoke weed all the time, you generally do less than other people. Since being a teenager is all about learning, school and otherwise, it probably stands to reason that many teenage weed smokers simply aren't arsed and therefore end up knowing less.

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Re: War on Drugs
« Reply #318 on: August 28, 2012, 09:14:23 pm »
I've smoked weed (bar when in hospitals + holidays since kids were born) EVERY single night from the age of 14 + socially a couple of years before that + I do think it has slightly effected me but not to the levels that you would class as worrying or to be honest even notice unless you really dissect your life/attitude, and I've done alright for myself . Memory no worse than the next non smoker of my age , but I do know quite a few mates who after a couple of years of smoking as teenagers became paranoid + still ain't the same 15-20 year's on.
It also depends on how much they smoke, just the same rules apply as alcohol (less so probably with the addiction level) if you abuse it then it will abuse you back ,and also the strength of the weed ,as regards to me when I was in the teenager years that their on about I was mainly smoking solid + green now + again cos solid was a lot cheaper than green + a lot easier to get a hold of, so maybe if I'd have smoked the green you get these days + only that then maybe I would have ended up worse who knows

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Re: War on Drugs
« Reply #319 on: August 28, 2012, 09:28:32 pm »
I've smoked weed (bar when in hospitals + holidays since kids were born) EVERY single night from the age of 14 + socially a couple of years before that + I do think it has slightly effected me but not to the levels that you would class as worrying or to be honest even notice unless you really dissect your life/attitude, and I've done alright for myself . Memory no worse than the next non smoker of my age , but I do know quite a few mates who after a couple of years of smoking as teenagers became paranoid + still ain't the same 15-20 year's on.
It also depends on how much they smoke, just the same rules apply as alcohol (less so probably with the addiction level) if you abuse it then it will abuse you back ,and also the strength of the weed ,as regards to me when I was in the teenager years that their on about I was mainly smoking solid + green now + again cos solid was a lot cheaper than green + a lot easier to get a hold of, so maybe if I'd have smoked the green you get these days + only that then maybe I would have ended up worse who knows
That's probably quite right in your case.

However, you need to look at a large sample rather than just individual cases to show a correlation.

Now, on an annecdotal note, I would suggest that what the study shows isn't at all surprising, however, in this case we have gone beyond anecdote and have shown correlation and causation linked to cannabis use (and the extent of it).

Whilst it is probably true that alcohol causes issues one of them being increased risk of depression later in life (iirc), this is something new to suggest for youngster cannabis is far from the harmless drug suggested.

Lots of bollocks has been printed about increasing cannabis strength and psychosis etc... And mostly it's been utter daily mail rubbish...

But this isn't rubbish, and really it's quite worrying.  The drug (it seems) is actively hindering the normal and healthy maturation of the brain in a way that can't be reversed.....

Kids.... Don't do drugs until you're a bit more grown up ;D
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“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
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