Author Topic: Is the current Champion League format the best? If not what would you change? (Read 3349 times)

MBL? · « **Reply #40 on:** April 28, 2021, 08:35:53 pm »

Quote from: MBL? on April 28, 2021, 08:24:35 pm

Only change I would make is that the group instead of 2 separate fixtures against each team it would be a two legged with away goals like the knock out rounds. Not sure if it could work but away goals rule is part of what makes it so good in the knockouts.

Edit, actually that’s a shit idea. Loads more dead rubber games would be created?

Thinking it could be done but there would need to be a bonus points system a bit like rugby.

puroresu_kid · « **Reply #41 on:** April 28, 2021, 10:10:41 pm »

Quote from: wenlock on April 28, 2021, 08:02:28 pm

I see people wanting to end the away goals rule and can't understand why, I was really confused when Wenger suggested it a year or two ago.

Everyone knows in advance what the rule is and everyone has an away tie so the playing field is all even for everyone with that regard. If it's because it hurts the home team then everyone has a home game too, so again it's all fair.

I see so many teams not even trying these days in the prem and dead rubber games and people want to remove something that actually gives away teams a solid reason to take a chance when away.

Doesn't a side playing away in the 2nd leg get an advantage if a game goes into extra time having had more time to score an away goal?

keano7 · « **Reply #42 on:** April 28, 2021, 10:12:03 pm »

Quote from: puroresu_kid on April 28, 2021, 10:10:41 pm

Doesn't a side playing away in the 2nd leg get an advantage if a game goes into extra time having had more time to score an away goal?

Yes. It’s a completely stupid rule which should have been abolished years ago. We’ve lost twice to Atletico that way.

Illmatic · « **Reply #43 on:** April 28, 2021, 10:28:22 pm »

Personally I'd keep as it is but we must have accept that the competition has to evolve, as too many powerful people want change if only for financial reasons.

BoRed · « **Reply #44 on:** April 28, 2021, 10:30:56 pm »

Quote from: puroresu_kid on April 28, 2021, 10:10:41 pm

Doesn't a side playing away in the 2nd leg get an advantage if a game goes into extra time having had more time to score an away goal?

Yes, but the side playing at home in the 2nd leg gets 30 more minutes of home advantage.

Dave McCoy · « **Reply #45 on:** April 28, 2021, 10:54:45 pm »

CL becomes ESL of 20 teams but you have to qualify annually except for top 4 in ESL automatically stay. Winner is determined by end of season 10 team tournament with top 2 getting byes until semifinal. Winners of big 5 leagues guaranteed spots for the next season with the remaining 11 spots a playoff between regions such as Scandinavian, Low Countries, Caucuses, and some mixture of relegated ESL teams
Current CL becomes EL
Current EL and Europa Conference is gotten rid of and there is a Pan-European 1 match knock out tournament with each tie played at the lower seeds home ground until the quarterfinals.

wenlock · « **Reply #46 on:** April 28, 2021, 11:56:57 pm »

Quote from: puroresu_kid on April 28, 2021, 10:10:41 pm

Doesn't a side playing away in the 2nd leg get an advantage if a game goes into extra time having had more time to score an away goal?

Swings and roundabouts. Being at home in the second leg lets you know what you need to do to get through with a noisy home crowd behind you. If it goes to extra time then 1. you didn't do enough in the first leg when you were away. 2. You let them get what they needed in the second leg to take it to extra time which is your own fault. 3. You didn't do enough to pull it back and win it outright but you get 30 mins more to complete the job with this crowd behind you.

I personally don't see a problem with any of that, your own fate is in your own hands throughout the entire tie.

puroresu_kid · « **Reply #47 on:** April 29, 2021, 12:14:47 am »

Quote from: BoRed on April 28, 2021, 10:30:56 pm

Yes, but the side playing at home in the 2nd leg gets 30 more minutes of home advantage.

True but given a choice I would take a goal counting twice as the bigger advantage

Red_Rich · « **Reply #48 on:** April 29, 2021, 12:22:36 am »

Nothing, really. It's fine as it is.

Only slight things I might change would be to allow champions of some countries in without having to pre-qualify (ie Scotland) and possibly reduce 4 places to 3.

Also, I'd absolutely scrap that thing of dropping down into Europa League after being KO'd from CL.

United should be out of Europe entirely ... not given a chance to win another tournament from mid-season (which they proabably will)

Bergersrightwingviews · « **Reply #49 on:** April 29, 2021, 12:38:01 am »

Format is fine. Like the idea of stopping CL teams going into the EL though. That makes sense.

The thing that needs to change is that FFP needs to be enforced to stop scum like Abramovich and Middle Eastern slavers buying their place in it and occasionally buying the trophy itself.

BoRed · « **Reply #50 on:** April 29, 2021, 09:45:39 am »

Quote from: keano7 on April 28, 2021, 10:12:03 pm

Yes. It’s a completely stupid rule which should have been abolished years ago. We’ve lost twice to Atletico that way.

No, we didn't, they beat us 4-2 on aggregate last season. And the time we did lose on the away goals rule there's nothing to say we wouldn't have lost on penalties anyway.

We've actually won more ties on away goals than we've lost, including some major ones. The semifinal against Bayern in 1981 is an obvious example, as is the UEFA Cup semifinal against Spurs in 1973. More recently, we beat Barca under Rafa when we won 2-1 away before losing 1-0 at home. We could have lost all of those on penalties without the away goals rule.

More importantly, I wouldn't judge a rule on how it's affected us over the years.

puroresu_kid · « **Reply #51 on:** April 29, 2021, 09:53:29 am »

Quote from: Bergersleftpeg on April 29, 2021, 12:38:01 am

Format is fine. Like the idea of stopping CL teams going into the EL though. That makes sense.

The thing that needs to change is that FFP needs to be enforced to stop scum like Abramovich and Middle Eastern slavers buying their place in it and occasionally buying the trophy itself.

The problem with FFP is it still doesn't resolve the issue of investment (which any business encourages) and surely produces a glass ceiling except for a small amount of clubs and only protects the status quo.

Should clubs be owned by states? I would say no but should clubs not have the chance to win the lottery and not join the big table?

Without investment the vast majority of clubs would never get the chance to even play in the CL let alone compete unless they have some miracle.

There needs to be some sort of FFP just not convinced UEFA's model was ever the right way.

Ravishing Rick Dude · « **Reply #52 on:** April 29, 2021, 10:11:55 am »

Quote from: jackh on April 28, 2021, 06:16:13 pm

I don't actually have anything much against this aspect of the competition really - overall I tend to just think the format is known in advance, so it's not like the Europa League sides are blindsided by it. Presumably (I've done no research whatsoever) it keeps the occasional dead-rubber alive, whereby two teams meet on the final Champions League group matchday having already failed to achieve a top two position (maybe even giving a cut-adrift side something to battle for in the 4th & 5th fixtures too).

Perhaps a sensible compromise would be to have the 8 teams who drop out of the Champions League matched-up in four ring-fenced fixtures in the Europa League's Round of 32 (rather than the current system where the better 4 are seeded with the group winners) - this way, you're guaranteed to lose 4 of them before the Round of 16 and it's less of a chance for them all.

Don't necessarily agree with this either - lots of half decent sides in the Europa League who are stronger on-paper than some of those qualifying for the Champions League anyway.

Nah, not for me. If there's a group of death in the Champion League, that means some tough dog will drop to Europa League and twat everyone there. Just doesn't seem fair to me.

Indomitable_Carp · « **Reply #53 on:** April 29, 2021, 11:18:23 am »

I agree with stopping Champions League clubs failing to get through the groups dropping into the Europa League. The Europa league is a decent competition, and it devalues it having Champions League cast offs. It also further increases the stakes for the Champions League group stages.

jackh · « **Reply #54 on:** April 29, 2021, 11:41:58 am »

Quote from: Ravishing Rick Rude on April 29, 2021, 10:11:55 am

Nah, not for me. If there's a group of death in the Champion League, that means some tough dog will drop to Europa League and twat everyone there. Just doesn't seem fair to me.

I'm not sure I see how it's 'unfair' though...it's a predetermined step that the Europa League sides could perhaps avoid by performing better in the preceding season and qualifying for the Champions League itself (

).

Quote from: Indomitable_Carp on April 29, 2021, 11:18:23 am

I agree with stopping Champions League clubs failing to get through the groups dropping into the Europa League. The Europa league is a decent competition, and it devalues it having Champions League cast offs. It also further increases the stakes for the Champions League group stages.

I suppose perhaps I'm thinking of it in terms of another qualification route, rather than it being for "cast off" teams - finishing 3rd as an entry route to the Europa League Round of 32, rather than purely as being non-progression to the Champions League Round of 16.

Mostly just playing Devil's advocate though I suppose - toying with the concept/reasons for it in my head. Can't see UEFA abolishing it anyway, as the chance of 2/3 of the given sides each year being 'big' and a draw for viewers/sponsors/etc is significant - I definitely think that ring-fencing those 8 teams so that only 4 progressed to the Round of 16 would be sensible though (perhaps you even keep them together at that stage, so that only 2 can & will reach the Quarters).

jackh · « **Reply #55 on:** April 29, 2021, 11:59:01 am »

Quick bit of research on the last ten years of the Europa League (2011-12 to current season)...

13 of 40 Europa League Semi-finalists have been teams who've dropped out of/qualified via the Champions League Group Stage;
6 of those 13 reached the Europa League Final (United could make it 7 this season);
3 of those 6 won the Europa League (Atleti '18, Sevilla '16, Chelsea '13);
1 of the 10 Europa League Finals has been/can be contested between two teams who dropped out of/qualified via the Champions League Group Stage (Benfica vs Chelsea '13).

Jon2lfc · « **Reply #56 on:** April 29, 2021, 12:31:19 pm »

Quote from: jackh on April 29, 2021, 11:59:01 am

Quick bit of research on the last ten years of the Europa League (2011-12 to current season)...
13 of 40 Europa League Semi-finalists have been teams who've dropped out of/qualified via the Champions League Group Stage;
6 of those 13 reached the Europa League Final (United could make it 7 this season);
3 of those 6 won the Europa League (Atleti '18, Sevilla '16, Chelsea '13);
1 of the 10 Europa League Finals has been/can be contested between two teams who dropped out of/qualified via the Champions League Group Stage (Benfica vs Chelsea '13).

So over the last 10 years, 6 of the 20 finalists have come from that season's Champions League?

jackh · « **Reply #57 on:** April 29, 2021, 12:40:03 pm »

Quote from: Jon2lfc on April 29, 2021, 12:31:19 pm

So over the last 10 years, 6 of the 20 finalists have come from that season's Champions League?

Almost - 6 in 18; potentially 7 in 20 (United this year).

2019-20 - Inter
2017-18 - Atleti
2015-16 - Sevilla
2013-14 - Benfica
2012-13 - Benfica & Chelsea

B0151? · « **Reply #58 on:** April 29, 2021, 12:44:19 pm »

Would be interested to see statistics on how often the teams from the 3rd and 4th pot get through the groups

My biggest prob is how it really is a matter of luck whether your group will be a walkover or a challenge. I guess that's football, we love the whole group of death thing. But I'm not against trying something new from the current format used for all the major tournaments. Just to.see what it would be like..

Jon2lfc · « **Reply #59 on:** April 29, 2021, 02:33:29 pm »

The Champions League needs to go back to its roots and only allow actual league Champions in.
For all other teams, they can be entered into the Europa or the new Conference thing.

I'd love us to qualify for the Conference so we can tick off another trophy.

And I'd also love to see the ECWC making a reappearance whilst we on this subject.
Sad that we never got to win that. In our dominant period we didn't win that many FA Cups.

jackh · « **Reply #60 on:** April 29, 2021, 04:03:23 pm »

Quote from: B0151? on April 29, 2021, 12:44:19 pm

Would be interested to see statistics on how often the teams from the 3rd and 4th pot get through the groups

My biggest prob is how it really is a matter of luck whether your group will be a walkover or a challenge. I guess that's football, we love the whole group of death thing. But I'm not against trying something new from the current format used for all the major tournaments. Just to.see what it would be like..

I'll be gracious and let someone else pick that one up

El Lobo · « **Reply #61 on:** April 29, 2021, 04:15:19 pm »

Quote from: Jon2lfc on April 29, 2021, 02:33:29 pm

The Champions League needs to go back to its roots and only allow actual league Champions in.
For all other teams, they can be entered into the Europa or the new Conference thing.

I'd love us to qualify for the Conference so we can tick off another trophy.

And I'd also love to see the ECWC making a reappearance whilst we on this subject.
Sad that we never got to win that. In our dominant period we didn't win that many FA Cups.

You must know thats not ever going to happen...? There's literally no-one it would be good for, no-one would possible agree to it. Might be interesting to have a separate thing just for Champions but again seems unlikely that they'd want to cram in any more tournaments.

I suppose you could make everyone else qualify earlier than the champions....

B0151? · « **Reply #62 on:** April 29, 2021, 04:21:33 pm »

Quote from: jackh on April 29, 2021, 04:03:23 pm

I'll be gracious and let someone else pick that one up

hahahaha I know. I definitely wasn't asking anyone to do that here. Must be very rare a team from pot 4 gets through though

Zee_26 · « **Reply #63 on:** April 29, 2021, 04:34:57 pm »

What about four groups of eight teams? Teams only play each other once in the group stages so the games have a bit more at stake and it keeps the number of games down. Top four teams go into a round of 16 with the top teams in each group seeded to play the 4th best from the other groups. Also change the seeding system a bit so the groups are evenly matched.

Walshy nMe® · « **Reply #64 on:** April 29, 2021, 04:36:24 pm »

Keep qualification how it is.

Seed it to an extent if needed, but it might not be.

Then a straight knockout like the FA Cup.

BoRed · « **Reply #65 on:** April 29, 2021, 04:45:21 pm »

Quote from: fucking appalled on April 29, 2021, 04:15:19 pm

I suppose you could make everyone else qualify earlier than the champions....

That would definitely make sense, but it'll also never happen. The whole point of the group stage was to give the big teams guaranteed six games, plus at least another two unless they finish bottom of the group (with the third place dropping into EL). Now they're expanding it to ten group games. But none of that would be guaranteed if they had to qualify in the first place. Originally, most teams had to qualify, big leagues had fewer places, but big clubs applied more and more pressure and got more and more concessions. I can't see them giving that up any time soon.

The opposition to ESL was led by this "earn it" slogan, but these days some earn it by finishing fourth domestically while most domestic champions can only dream of one day participating. And, to be fair, most of those top four teams from big leagues probably are better teams than most domestic champions, but they should still earn their place by playing qualifiers against those champions and showing they're better on the pitch rather than take their place by default. But like I said, it'll never happen, there's no way back.

BoRed · « **Reply #66 on:** April 29, 2021, 04:51:59 pm »

Quote from: Walshy nMe® on April 29, 2021, 04:36:24 pm

Keep qualification how it is.

The group stage has had 32 teams since 1999. That year, 16 teams went in by defaut, the other 16 places were open to qualifiers. That number later went down to 10, and in 2018 down to just 6. Prior to 1999, only champions of the top leagues went straight into the group stage, then it was the top 2, then the top 3 and finally the top 4. Big teams want guarantees, they don't want to "earn it". Qualification as it is is a joke, this season you had 53 teams fighting for six places.

Bobinhood · « **Reply #67 on:** April 29, 2021, 05:01:08 pm »

Quote from: fucking appalled on April 29, 2021, 04:15:19 pm

Might be interesting to have a separate thing just for Champions

The Super Champions League. Perfect.

Jon2lfc · « **Reply #68 on:** April 29, 2021, 06:22:38 pm »

Quote from: Bobinhood on April 29, 2021, 05:01:08 pm

The Super Champions League. Perfect.

nah, call it the European Cup.

And all the rest could go into another cup comp run by UEFA.. call it the UEFA Cup.

Red_Rich · « **Reply #69 on:** April 29, 2021, 06:45:32 pm »

Quote from: Indomitable_Carp on April 29, 2021, 11:18:23 am

I agree with stopping Champions League clubs failing to get through the groups dropping into the Europa League. The Europa league is a decent competition, and it devalues it having Champions League cast offs. It also further increases the stakes for the Champions League group stages.

The biggest problem I have with it is teams effectively getting the opportunity to enter 2 comps in one season.

A team like Arsenal, for example, who qualified for the EL and have slogged through the whole season trying to win it, might get usurped right at the end by a team who basically failed in Europe already and have been given another cup to go at, one which they didn't qualify for in the beginning.

It's like having a bet on PSG to win last night and then in the second half that bet being altered/shifted so you can change your mind and go for City instead with the same initial money stake you laid out at KO!