Topic: Euro 2020 (2021) Chat & Final MATCH THREAD

[John C]

Tricky term is nationalism. In powerful, established nations it is generally a right-wing force which easily shades into fascism. It's not the same thing as patriotism. English nationalism I find detestable, as I guess most of us do. 

In nations struggling to be free nationalism can clearly be a progressive force. But even there you've got to watch it because here will be fascist fellow travellers, as there always are when the flag is being waved. This is true even of the nationalisms that people are generally sympathetic towards - the ANC in the Apartheid era, Poland in the 1980s, Tibet or Palestine now etc. It's not a reason to withdraw your support. Just a reminder that any nationalistic movement is capable of sheltering some very ugly people.

The great thing about the English football team at the moment is that the nationalists are out-numbered by ordinary folk who don't even necessarily follow football that much but are simply enjoying England dong well for change and like the 'look' of the manager and the team. It's got a London Olympics feel to it. This thing goes way beyond Brexit or the Tory party. If they win it they will always be known as the team that took the knee, wore the rainbow flag, and talked about why Black Lives Matter. How the fucking nationalists hate all those things.

Superb post Yorky.

[vivabobbygraham]

Whilst I fully understand the issues you raise about not wanting to support your national team, your last paragraph seems like an unwarranted attack on many of your fellow reds. Are you suggesting that any Liverpool fan who wants to support their national team as well is somehow being unfaithful to Liverpool?

It's up to you whether you consider it an 'unwarranted attack' ...if it's an attack at all. I couldn't care less. It's ironic you pick that one part of the few posts I have written whilst ignoring the rest which absolutely confirms what I'm talking about. Do you think the pithy one liner in your intro has any credence? Is that meant to justify the rest of your post? You didn't want to discuss any of my points earlier on in the thread did you, mate when I challenged the shite you were espousing early on. All that, being served by 'a Tory, right wing brexiteer', all that stuff? Said I was just looking for a fight or some such bollocks. As far as I'm concerned your motives are suspect in this thread and I hope others are on it, too

[Jm55]

I feel really sorry for the genuine England fans who have waited their entire life for the national team to be in the final of a major competition and can't get a ticket, while knobheads like Tom Allen the comedian, who knows fuck all about footy, is going the final. All about being on board the bandwagon.

True for any major final.

Whenever Liverpool get anywhere you have the likes of Simon Rimmer begging for tickets on national tv (and usually getting them.)

I’ve no idea what the England loyalty system is but I’d imagine the ones who really go and watch them everywhere will hve had access to a ticket. A bigger issue is the ridiculous prices uefa are charging, I had a look at the Italy v Spain semi the other day as they were available and it was 275 euro for a restricted view, absolute fucking joke.

[rob1966]

True for any major final.

Whenever Liverpool get anywhere you have the likes of Simon Rimmer begging for tickets on national tv (and usually getting them.)

I’ve no idea what the England loyalty system is but I’d imagine the ones who really go and watch them everywhere will hve had access to a ticket. A bigger issue is the ridiculous prices uefa are charging, I had a look at the Italy v Spain semi the other day as they were available and it was 275 euro for a restricted view, absolute fucking joke.

Yeah the likes of Rimmer piss me off but at least they are supporters. Allen was on the Last Leg last night and his only interest in football was fancying Baddiel and Skinner as a kid in 1996. One of the presenters, Alex Brooker, who is a huge England fan, looked really pissed off when he said he was going as he isn't. He knows fuck all about the game, he's just going as the guest of some magazine. Wembley will be full of these people on Sunday.

[Jm55]

Yeah the likes of Rimmer piss me off but at least they are supporters. Allen was on the Last Leg last night and his only interest in football was fancying Baddiel and Skinner as a kid in 1996. One of the presenters, Alex Brooker, who is a huge England fan, looked really pissed off when he said he was going as he isn't. He knows fuck all about the game, he's just going as the guest of some magazine. Wembley will be full of these people on Sunday.

The sad reality is that these sort of events are becoming more and more like the Super Bowl whereby you have to either be famous or loaded to get a ticket, especially if uefa have anything to do with it. The whole thing needs a massive rethink, I’ve no issue with the likes of Beckham getting tickets but the whole thing needs to become far more accessible to people both in terms of availability and cost, by all means charge 500 euros for a few tickets if you must but don’t make the few that are reasonably priced like absolute rocking horse shit. I know that capacity is restricted for this tournament but it would be exactly the same if Wembley was allowed to be filled to capacity.

[keano7]

I’m trying really hard to get excited about the final but I just can’t. If England win then great but if they lose then I’ll get over it within the hour. The World Cup feels massive in comparison. I think it’s all the people that don’t like football now coming out he woodwork and jumping on the #itscominghome but then they’re the first to point fingers that football fans are this that and the other when something crops up domestically.

[John C]

I often find myself wanting to be in tune with Brian Reade, always like his articles. I've been wondering all week what he'll say and todays column is as I'd hoped, full of enthusiasm. Here's a snippit


As has the way they have connected with the wider nation by sharing stories of their tough upbringings, empathising with the voiceless and leading from the front by taking the knee or wearing rainbow laces in the battle against inequality.

And this outward-looking stance has slowly spread to the fans. The two-thirds full Wembley crowd on Wednesday drowned out the boos when those players took the knee. Even their songs are different. Hearing them bellow out Sweet Caroline will be a knife to the hearts of England’s hardcore travelling fans who prefer to sing pathetic, xenophobic dirges like Ten German Bombers. Much of the credit for the togetherness of these players and the way they are perceived as decent, down-to-earth young men, goes back to the manager.

As Gary Neville said after the Denmark game: “The standard of leaders in this country in the last couple of years has been poor. Gareth Southgate is everything a leader should be.”

It was clear who he was getting at.
Could there be a starker contrast in leadership than that between Southgate and our Prime Minister?

One, open, honest, dignified, obsessed with the finest detail and the welfare of those around him. The other Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson.

When the likes of him and Priti Patel were playing dangerous culture wars by refusing, or even condoning, those who booed players taking the knee, Southgate and his players offered eloquence and empathy.

It’s why I’d love it if they win on Sunday, and Johnson invites them to No10 so he can bask in their glory, they politely decline.
https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/england-been-heroes-pitch-win-24502351

[killer-heels]

If they refused Boris’ invite then I would actually get myself an English flag and attach it to my car.

[Passmaster Molby]

It's up to you whether you consider it an 'unwarranted attack' ...if it's an attack at all. I couldn't care less. It's ironic you pick that one part of the few posts I have written whilst ignoring the rest which absolutely confirms what I'm talking about. Do you think the pithy one liner in your intro has any credence? Is that meant to justify the rest of your post? You didn't want to discuss any of my points earlier on in the thread did you, mate when I challenged the shite you were espousing early on. All that, being served by 'a Tory, right wing brexiteer', all that stuff? Said I was just looking for a fight or some such bollocks. As far as I'm concerned your motives are suspect in this thread and I hope others are on it, too

Once again I will reiterate that I don’t care if you don’t support England, you have your reasons and I respect that, but that doesn’t mean I think your reasons aren’t valid which seems to be the stance you are taking. I am only reacting to your comments that if you support Liverpool then you can’t have England as a mistress, which I wholeheartedly disagree with.

You are clearly upset with my posts and have got it into your head that I am some mysterious poster with ulterior motives, when the fact is I have only reacted when England fans have been accused of being right wing Tory supporting Brexit voters and when you have posted that Liverpool fans shouldn’t support England as it’s like having a mistress whilst being married, both points which I disagree with.

I am not attacking you or anyone else’s reasons for not supporting England, but you seem happy to have a go at anyone who supports both Liverpool and England. You don’t seem very tolerant towards Liverpool fans who support their country as well, and give the impression that we are somewhat inferior because we maybe don’t come from Liverpool, and that’s not how I would like to see Liverpool supporters react. We all love Liverpool at the end of the day, and our feelings towards national football shouldn’t be criticised, and that goes both ways.

[Yorkykopite]

I often find myself wanting to be in tune with Brian Reade, always like his articles. I've been wondering all week what he'll say and todays column is as I'd hoped, full of enthusiasm. Here's a snippit


As has the way they have connected with the wider nation by sharing stories of their tough upbringings, empathising with the voiceless and leading from the front by taking the knee or wearing rainbow laces in the battle against inequality.

And this outward-looking stance has slowly spread to the fans. The two-thirds full Wembley crowd on Wednesday drowned out the boos when those players took the knee. Even their songs are different. Hearing them bellow out Sweet Caroline will be a knife to the hearts of England’s hardcore travelling fans who prefer to sing pathetic, xenophobic dirges like Ten German Bombers. Much of the credit for the togetherness of these players and the way they are perceived as decent, down-to-earth young men, goes back to the manager.

As Gary Neville said after the Denmark game: “The standard of leaders in this country in the last couple of years has been poor. Gareth Southgate is everything a leader should be.”

It was clear who he was getting at.
Could there be a starker contrast in leadership than that between Southgate and our Prime Minister?

One, open, honest, dignified, obsessed with the finest detail and the welfare of those around him. The other Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson.

When the likes of him and Priti Patel were playing dangerous culture wars by refusing, or even condoning, those who booed players taking the knee, Southgate and his players offered eloquence and empathy.

It’s why I’d love it if they win on Sunday, and Johnson invites them to No10 so he can bask in their glory, they politely decline.
https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/england-been-heroes-pitch-win-24502351

Nice that John. That's the way I feel about it too. The bit about the dignity and concern with the welfare of others is spot on. The absolute obverse of the frivolous, mendacious tub of Eton lard who is in Number 10.

[elsewhere]

If they refused Boris’ invite then I would actually get myself an English flag and attach it to my car.

Why did I read this as "I'd get an English flag and attack my car"

[jillcwhomever]

Nationalism tends to have a lot to do with a national football team. Yes, Gareth seems like someone we should have a lot of respect for, yes, the players are a great bunch of lads and if they do win I'll be happy for them, especially Hendo, Rashford and Sterling. I'm sure a lot of the Man Utd players are really sound too but I'm not supporting them either. It'd be lovely if England winning could bring about a sea change in attitudes of a lot of people who follow England's football team - and if it did, I'd be all for it - but I think that's massive wishful thinking.

It has already started in small places, which has predictably been overshadowed by all the posts on hating England etc, etc. I will repeat the story I saw reported by someone on twitter last week. Taking his dog for a walk on a common and he watched these young boys preparing to have a kick around. They actually took the knee before starting to play a game of footy amongst themselves. This is where part of the battle is with the next generation. Now, it could be they come from a family who already have tolerance, but supposing they didn't? That has come entirely from watching this group of players taking a stand against the racism inbred in parts of our society. It may only be a little thing, but it's a start. What is the alternative, just accepting that you go on thinking the worst about everyone? If that's the case what is the point in life, as nothing is going to change?

[Armand9]

No chance.
How can you support your country of birth and not be nationilistic?

that's an interesting rationale but i dont think it's quite so straightforward, necessarily

if you asked any of my friends whether i was nationalistic, i know 100% all of them would you give you an odd look for even asking that question and say 'not remotely'

yet i do support (as in, they're the team i want to win - no flags, singalongs or any of that bollocks) england, so it could definitely be said i am in that regard

but, when i grew up watching football, you only ever saw players from GB unless they screened a euro cup final, that would get on the telly. so pretty much every player i actually knew (via match of the day, mainly, tho there were other outlets such as The Big Match)) were british and the majority were english, so it was pretty obvious i was going to support england in world cups - tho via world cups i grew to like individual players in those comps more than english players, often - eg pele, kempes, cruyff come to mind immediately

so yes i support england, dont feel nationalistic in the slightest, and have no sense of national pride generally, tho have no problem with those who do, you are what you are, i dont give a fuck either way really, unless you're a c*nt, cos all i care about in the end is 'are you a decent human?' yes? sweet, crack on

[Jake]

I just wish we were playing a proper left wing country tomorrow like Denmark so I could cheer for them.

[Elmo!]

Why did I read this as "I'd get an English flag and attack my car"

Killer Heels drives an Alfa Romeo.

It's what all proper England fans would do.

[Fromola]

I often find myself wanting to be in tune with Brian Reade, always like his articles. I've been wondering all week what he'll say and todays column is as I'd hoped, full of enthusiasm. Here's a snippit


As has the way they have connected with the wider nation by sharing stories of their tough upbringings, empathising with the voiceless and leading from the front by taking the knee or wearing rainbow laces in the battle against inequality.

And this outward-looking stance has slowly spread to the fans. The two-thirds full Wembley crowd on Wednesday drowned out the boos when those players took the knee. Even their songs are different. Hearing them bellow out Sweet Caroline will be a knife to the hearts of England’s hardcore travelling fans who prefer to sing pathetic, xenophobic dirges like Ten German Bombers. Much of the credit for the togetherness of these players and the way they are perceived as decent, down-to-earth young men, goes back to the manager.

As Gary Neville said after the Denmark game: “The standard of leaders in this country in the last couple of years has been poor. Gareth Southgate is everything a leader should be.”

It was clear who he was getting at.
Could there be a starker contrast in leadership than that between Southgate and our Prime Minister?

One, open, honest, dignified, obsessed with the finest detail and the welfare of those around him. The other Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson.

When the likes of him and Priti Patel were playing dangerous culture wars by refusing, or even condoning, those who booed players taking the knee, Southgate and his players offered eloquence and empathy.

It’s why I’d love it if they win on Sunday, and Johnson invites them to No10 so he can bask in their glory, they politely decline.
https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/england-been-heroes-pitch-win-24502351

And cheats.

[jillcwhomever]

And cheats.

As usual, missing the bigger picture. 

[Libertine]

I often find myself wanting to be in tune with Brian Reade, always like his articles. I've been wondering all week what he'll say and todays column is as I'd hoped, full of enthusiasm. Here's a snippit


As has the way they have connected with the wider nation by sharing stories of their tough upbringings, empathising with the voiceless and leading from the front by taking the knee or wearing rainbow laces in the battle against inequality.

And this outward-looking stance has slowly spread to the fans. The two-thirds full Wembley crowd on Wednesday drowned out the boos when those players took the knee. Even their songs are different. Hearing them bellow out Sweet Caroline will be a knife to the hearts of England’s hardcore travelling fans who prefer to sing pathetic, xenophobic dirges like Ten German Bombers. Much of the credit for the togetherness of these players and the way they are perceived as decent, down-to-earth young men, goes back to the manager.

As Gary Neville said after the Denmark game: “The standard of leaders in this country in the last couple of years has been poor. Gareth Southgate is everything a leader should be.”

It was clear who he was getting at.
Could there be a starker contrast in leadership than that between Southgate and our Prime Minister?

One, open, honest, dignified, obsessed with the finest detail and the welfare of those around him. The other Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson.

When the likes of him and Priti Patel were playing dangerous culture wars by refusing, or even condoning, those who booed players taking the knee, Southgate and his players offered eloquence and empathy.

It’s why I’d love it if they win on Sunday, and Johnson invites them to No10 so he can bask in their glory, they politely decline.
https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/england-been-heroes-pitch-win-24502351

All very nice and I would agree with every word.

But the reason the pro and anti England camps will never agree is that they are always so selective in their arguments.

So all the points above are very well made and reasons to be happy for this team. But he makes no mention of the widespread booing of the national anthems, the fact that the two-thirds actually need to drown out the one-third booing their own team for taking a stand against racism or the abuse received by some Danish fans. There are good reasons to support this team and good reasons to rather they didn't win because of the kind of support they attract.

Also, it's a lovely fantasy to think the team would turn down an invitation to no 10. Not going to happen. But what will inevitably happen if England win is that the likes of Johnson and Patel will jump on the bandwagon (already happening) and try to use it to further their own agendas, regardless of the fact that the team are anathema to what they represent.

[vivabobbygraham]

Once again I will reiterate that I don’t care if you don’t support England, you have your reasons and I respect that, but that doesn’t mean I think your reasons aren’t valid which seems to be the stance you are taking. I am only reacting to your comments that if you support Liverpool then you can’t have England as a mistress, which I wholeheartedly disagree with.

This is nonsense. You have been castigating those who don't support England, yet is the Country of your birth. Where you have been educated etc, etc. Do I have to go and find them or will you admit to that?

You are clearly upset with my posts and have got it into your head that I am some mysterious poster with ulterior motives, when the fact is I have only reacted when England fans have been accused of being right wing Tory supporting Brexit voters and when you have posted that Liverpool fans shouldn’t support England as it’s like having a mistress whilst being married, both points which I disagree with.

I used an analogy to express an opinion. You've took exception to it and wrapped it up in something else, the very thing you accuse me of. Your 'English' pride bursting through again. Your Englishness percolating with your Liverpudlieness as you watch the reds is a potent mix. If you say you can separate the two then go 'ed. I am sure there are many on this thread who can. However,  I haven't seen or read much evidence of that, tbf, such is your fervour for the Country of your birth, where you were educated, pay your taxes, blah, blah, blah. Of course, being a Liverpudlian, you will know that the mantra of 'Scouse not english' defines an Anfield crowd...

I am not attacking you or anyone else’s reasons for not supporting England, but you seem happy to have a go at anyone who supports both Liverpool and England. You don’t seem very tolerant towards Liverpool fans who support their country as well, and give the impression that we are somewhat inferior because we maybe don’t come from Liverpool, and that’s not how I would like to see Liverpool supporters react. We all love Liverpool at the end of the day, and our feelings towards national football shouldn’t be criticised, and that goes both ways

This is your typical Tory, right wing, brexiteer riposte. I have been on the end of many, far more accomplished than this. I have been reasonable in my attitude towards those who follow England. I have tried to make it personal only from my own point of view without ridiculing others who take a different standpoint. Indeed, I have wished them well. Yet, you take one crumb of my last post on the subject, an analogy, and turn it into a loaf of fey outrage on behalf of fellow 'Liverpudlians'. Completely ignored my other posts, wouldn't even engage when you had ample opportunity, accusing me of looking for a fight. But you've been waiting, ready to pounce, haven't you, mate? To use your own rhetoric...'that Liverpool fan who you engage with on RAWK? He's a right wing Tory Brexiteer' Not other England fans, not fellow Liverpudlians...in this case I am making it very personal. I mean You!

[Kenny's Jacket]

Support England or not it’s up too the individual
 

I don’t care if you support England or not but let’s get some perspective 

You are right of course


I was born in a wheelchair,  but with work and leisure Ive been lucky enough to visit many countries , including ones considered under developed but In 2018 I had the misfortune of going to Germany three times  - The attitude towards disabled people in Germany is horrific worse than anywhere Id experienced It truly shocked me. By the third trip - I was so happy to get back amongst people who viewed me as equal - so yeah Englands sound by me



However as a Welshman Ill be supporting Italy - It is what it is and doesn't really require a debate

[John C]

As usual, missing the bigger picture. 

Yep. Very, very selective. It will be nice when we can just discuss the game, that's what it's all about isn't it Jill.

[Crosby Nick]

Yep. Very, very selective. It will be nice when we can just discuss the game, that's what it's all about isn't it Jill.

We should have a match thread.

[jillcwhomever]

Yep. Very, very selective. It will be nice when we can just discuss the game, that's what it's all about isn't it Jill.

Yep all to true, John.

[jillcwhomever]

All very nice and I would agree with every word.

But the reason the pro and anti England camps will never agree is that they are always so selective in their arguments.

So all the points above are very well made and reasons to be happy for this team. But he makes no mention of the widespread booing of the national anthems, the fact that the two-thirds actually need to drown out the one-third booing their own team for taking a stand against racism or the abuse received by some Danish fans. There are good reasons to support this team and good reasons to rather they didn't win because of the kind of support they attract.

Also, it's a lovely fantasy to think the team would turn down an invitation to no 10. Not going to happen. But what will inevitably happen if England win is that the likes of Johnson and Patel will jump on the bandwagon (already happening) and try to use it to further their own agendas, regardless of the fact that the team are anathema to what they represent.

They can jump on the bandwagon all they like, but it won't stop the fact that this team will be remembered for the taking of the knee and standing up to the racist bullies. The likes of Johnson and his shite will be forgotten long before that. 

[Andy @ Allerton!]

I'm eager to learn what "it" is in relation to the post Roy.

"eager"?

[John C]

For over 4-weeks everyone has had an opportunity to express their opinion of this tournament and the difficulties some have supporting the national side. You all know my position also.

Amid the 88 pages in the main thread and the 570 or so pages in this thread (which got consumed by the discussion) there's been some really good and rational discussions from some people why they can't support England.

But it's all been done repeatedly now and due to requests in the thread and from PM's its time for a fresh thread. Without distractions, and no parallel thread either.

A new thread will open in due course for those that want to discuss the final in a positive manner. We ask that you refrain from the anti-England agenda and for those participating not to promote a nationalist point of view please, there are loads of places on the internet for you to vent.

Thanks to those of you who did make some effort and who posted more than one-liners.

Note the new threaded opening later will starred* meaning Beatle weeks may be issued and any other threads will be locked. It's about the footy from here on in.

If someone wants to do an OP feel free.

Peace & Love Reds.

[Alan_X]

If anyone fancies an achingly painful nostalgic return to 1990 this is a great social documentary of Englands world Cup (best ever), the fans (some a bit grim) and just the general way of life back then (ace).

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/OSO-uPr_eAI" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/OSO-uPr_eAI</a>

Thanks for posting that. So much that could be said about what's changed and what's stayed the same.