Topic: PL: Liverpool 0 vs 1 Burnley ‘83 Barnes (p)

[deFacto please, you bastards]

But maybe we do? Last season there were still numerous examples of us pressing and getting a turnover. This season people are just sitting back and not really interested in pressing nor interested in keeping the ball.

Basically kick it long down the channels and get pacy players to chase. No messing about keeping the ball at the back.

Sides are playing the same way they were last year against us. It's easier to do so now, because of our adjustments due to our defensive issues.

[free_at_last]

And then there is the David Coote rules on reffing.

Come on - he is a consumate professional
https://twitter.com/Road_End_Red/status/1346478251124822022?s=19

[killer-heels]

Sides are playing the same way they were last year against us. It's easier to do so now, because of our adjustments due to our defensive issues.

I dunno, i saw a stat somewhere showing pressing being down. I get the feeling teams are even more willing to give us the ball and also by losing our ability to press thats another big part of our game gone.

[Eeyore]

I dunno, i saw a stat somewhere showing pressing being down. I get the feeling teams are even more willing to give us the ball and also by losing our ability to press thats another big part of our game gone.

There are a couple of things at play though. Firstly because of our issues at centre back teams are less likely to play out from the back. Instead they will play it early and test our centre backs. Secondly because we know what is coming and because of our makeshift centre backs the full backs aren't pushing on as much and we aren't playing such a high line.

Those two things in tandem make it much more difficult to press. Plus you have the obvious one at times in games we are having 90% possession, it is pretty difficult to press when you are having that kind of possession. 

[killer-heels]

There are a couple of things at play though. Firstly because of our issues at centre back teams are less likely to play out from the back. Instead they will play it early and test our centre backs. Secondly because we know what is coming and because of our makeshift centre backs the full backs aren't pushing on as much and we aren't playing such a high line.

Those two things in tandem make it much more difficult to press. Plus you have the obvious one at times in games we are having 90% possession, it is pretty difficult to press when you are having that kind of possession. 

But we are not getting pushed back by teams, in fact we have defended well especially against United and Burnley, played high and got our team into good positions.

Now it could be that the players confidence is gone so it doesnt really matter. But we are getting to and inside the box and not really fashioning high quality chances.

[El Lobo]

Yep, not a chance that should be given as handball.

Still stings

[free_at_last]

Still stings

Yeah but that was a European ref - it's a bit different when you've got some English c*nt reffing the scouse scumbags

[RK7]

Unless it's for manu

True, they had a harsh won awarded against Lindlelof. Have the rules changed since then?

[Eeyore]

But we are not getting pushed back by teams, in fact we have defended well especially against United and Burnley, played high and got our team into good positions.

Now it could be that the players confidence is gone so it doesnt really matter. But we are getting to and inside the box and not really fashioning high quality chances.

We are ending up high up the pitch but the difference is when it happens in the move. With VVD, Matip/Gomez we have either two aggressive front foot defenders when Matip plays or exceptional recovery pace when Gomez plays. That means the full backs can have starting positions much further up the pitch.

That means the full backs are attacking a retreating defence. A retreating defence plays perfectly into both of their skillsets. On the left Mane drifts in and leaves space for Robbo to overlap and get beyond the opposition. On the right a retreating defence allows Mo to make an out to in run and allows Trent to hit those wonderful early balls in.

At the moment in the initial stages of moves the full backs are sitting. So by the time we get into their defensive third their defence is set. Our full backs are outstanding, but they are pretty one footed especially Robbo and aren't great dribblers.

Curtis Jones illustrates the result of attacking a set defence. Obviously defensively the opposition are set with their players in the right positions. They are also set to launch counter-attacks. That means with a high defensive line and a team set for a counter-attack your passing needs to be safer and more passive. Curtis is very creative but also offers too many turnover opportunities. He has tried to reign in his creativity, but it will take time to get the balance right.

We are at our most potent from broken play and when we can press and win the ball high up the pitch. At the moment with no aerial threat from set pieces teams can afford to defend deep and rely on living on scraps against a makeshift defence.

I think an indication of this is corners.

Burnley 12-0
United 7-3
Southampton 10-1
Newcastle 12-5
West Brom 7-3

So that would have been 48 corners for VVD to attack. This season we are joint first for corners and way out ahead in terms of shots.

[rob1966]

That hit Gomez's lower arm and we felt aggrieved because he was trying to get his arm out of the way.
The other hit the upper arm of the Burnley defender, close to his body. It may have then glanced off his hand, to nobody's advantage.
Inconsistent maybe, but two wrongs don't make a right. It wasn't a pen. Get over it.

Where did I say it was or wasn't a pen, all I did was post the video.

[Son of Spion]

I know the conspiracy theorists won't admit it, but they would all fume if that was given as a pen against us.

I think we have to take context into consideration though.

In the current climate, that's a nailed-on penalty.

[Eeyore]

I think we have to take context into consideration though.

In the current climate, that's a nailed-on penalty.

Depends on who the team is though SoS.

None of these were given.

[Ghost Town]

Five games and only one world class goal from Mane is a shocking return.
Some blame can be apportioned to bad luck / poor decision-making but the rest is systematic.
We bang our heads against a brick wall of packed defences when the vast majority of our chances, and most of the better ones, come from us stealing the ball when the opposition have the ball.
The solution is staring us in the face!

What's the solution that's staring us in the face and how do we go about implementing it?

[Ghost Town]

We are ending up high up the pitch but the difference is when it happens in the move. With VVD, Matip/Gomez we have either two aggressive front foot defenders when Matip plays or exceptional recovery pace when Gomez plays. That means the full backs can have starting positions much further up the pitch.

That means the full backs are attacking a retreating defence. A retreating defence plays perfectly into both of their skillsets. On the left Mane drifts in and leaves space for Robbo to overlap and get beyond the opposition. On the right a retreating defence allows Mo to make an out to in run and allows Trent to hit those wonderful early balls in.

At the moment in the initial stages of moves the full backs are sitting. So by the time we get into their defensive third their defence is set. Our full backs are outstanding, but they are pretty one footed especially Robbo and aren't great dribblers.

Yep. By the time Trent and Robbo are in position to cross the 'landscape' of the box is different to what they are used to, different from how it used to be when they crossed during much of the last few seasons. I know a guy who says about organised bus defences that they are 'set like concrete', and he has a point. It's very hard to break down an organised defence of big players who can clear every header and block every pass into the box. It's not impossible, of course, as Mane's goal against West Brom shows, but absent a moment of inpsiration like that it, it can be like banging your head on concrte trying to get through.

So the question is can we risk playing the fullback further forward with the defensive set up and lack of midfield protection as it is? Or is there another way to initiate quick transitions and get attacking balls into the danger area before the opposition defence is set like concrete?

[Eeyore]

Yep. By the time Trent and Robbo are in position to cross the 'landscape' of the box is different to what they are used to, different from how it used to be when they crossed during much of the last few seasons. I know a guy who says about organised bus defences that they are 'set like concrete', and he has a point. It's very hard to break down an organised defence of big players who can clear every header and block every pass into the box. It's not impossible, of course, as Mane's goal against West Brom shows, but absent a moment of inpsiration like that it, it can be like banging your head on concrte trying to get through.

So the question is can we risk playing the fullback further forward with the defensive set up and lack of midfield protection as it is? Or is there another way to initiate quick transitions and get attacking balls into the danger area before the opposition defence is set like concrete?

At the moment we are in a bit of a vicious circle. Teams are seeing their contemporaries succeeding with a low block whilst at the same time our front three are losing confidence through feeding off scraps. I think it is worth looking at how the vicious circle started. We hit top form with a 7-0 win against Palace in which we looked ridiculously threatening.

We then played a succession of teams who are set up to defend deep and counter. We aren't playing badly. We are totally dominating games having loads of shots and loads of corners.

I think this tougher set of fixtures may well suit us down to the ground. Hopefully United, West Ham and Spurs fancy their chances and decide to come out to play. That will help us.

As for getting it to the full backs earlier unfortunately that is another area in which VVD comes into his own. His driven long flat passes out to the full backs have been sorely missed. His passes are reminiscent of Alonso, he has the ability to hit the ball with no spin which means it goes through the air quicker and gives the full backs much more time before they are closed down. That means the opposition allowing our full backs time or pushing out which allows Salah and Mane to make out to in runs.

It is not just Virgil's immaculate front foot defending that we are missing but his ability to start attacks and above all create havoc if the oppositions sits in and allows us to shoot and win corners from saves and deflections.

[Son of Spion]

Depends on who the team is though SoS.

None of these were given.

Well yes, it seems it does.

I get the feeling the opposition could set up a machine gun post in their box and spray our forwards with bullets and we'd not get a foul awarded. Same if the opposition momentarily took up basketball in their box too.

It's all so truly bizarre and deeply baffling.

[Eeyore]

Well yes, it seems it does.

I get the feeling the opposition could set up a machine gun post in their box and spray our forwards with bullets and we'd not get a foul awarded. Same if the opposition momentarily took up basketball in their box too.

It's all so truly bizarre and deeply baffling.

I watched the Southampton-Arsenal game and serial diver Shane Long goes down after dragging leg and ensuring contact occurred. Pretty much the same was Barnes dragging his leg to ensure Alli made contact. In both instances there wasn't a peep from the pundits. If that was Mo it would have been the first item on News at Ten and been declared a diplomatic incident.

Personally I think it is a similar situation to the way Suarez was slaughtered by the media. That kind of narrative is corrosive and ends up influencing referees. As you say opponents can now get away with anything. Salah gets head locked week in week out and there isn't a peep about it.

Klopp speaks out about it and he gets slaughtered.

[killer-heels]

We are ending up high up the pitch but the difference is when it happens in the move. With VVD, Matip/Gomez we have either two aggressive front foot defenders when Matip plays or exceptional recovery pace when Gomez plays. That means the full backs can have starting positions much further up the pitch.

That means the full backs are attacking a retreating defence. A retreating defence plays perfectly into both of their skillsets. On the left Mane drifts in and leaves space for Robbo to overlap and get beyond the opposition. On the right a retreating defence allows Mo to make an out to in run and allows Trent to hit those wonderful early balls in.

At the moment in the initial stages of moves the full backs are sitting. So by the time we get into their defensive third their defence is set. Our full backs are outstanding, but they are pretty one footed especially Robbo and aren't great dribblers.

Curtis Jones illustrates the result of attacking a set defence. Obviously defensively the opposition are set with their players in the right positions. They are also set to launch counter-attacks. That means with a high defensive line and a team set for a counter-attack your passing needs to be safer and more passive. Curtis is very creative but also offers too many turnover opportunities. He has tried to reign in his creativity, but it will take time to get the balance right.

We are at our most potent from broken play and when we can press and win the ball high up the pitch. At the moment with no aerial threat from set pieces teams can afford to defend deep and rely on living on scraps against a makeshift defence.

I think an indication of this is corners.

Burnley 12-0
United 7-3
Southampton 10-1
Newcastle 12-5
West Brom 7-3

So that would have been 48 corners for VVD to attack. This season we are joint first for corners and way out ahead in terms of shots.

But where the full backs started was not a problem against Burnley and Man United. Our line was pretty high and pretty much normal, certainly against Burnley with no threat in behind. However, neither United nor Burnley gave us the chance to press them because they hit the ball directly and long.

We won those long balls quite comfortably on most occasions so we were never pinned back, our set up was pretty much as normal. However, when we got into the final third and box, we had no quality and very little craft. I appreciate that in other games we have had to start deeper than normal. But that wasnt the case in the last two games.

I am a bit concerned that the way we play that the easy thing is to just not have the ball, pack the middle and give us no pressing opportunity. From that setup and with zero confidence, we run out of ideas.

[kasperoff]

Depends on who the team is though SoS.

None of these were given.

Those were all far better shouts. Officiating in that Southhampton game was a disgrace.

[Eeyore]

But where the full backs started was not a problem against Burnley and Man United. Our line was pretty high and pretty much normal, certainly against Burnley with no threat in behind. However, neither United nor Burnley gave us the chance to press them because they hit the ball directly and long.

The key issue is the vertical distance between the centre backs and the full backs. Last season VVD in particular was hitting early 60 or 70 yard diagonals to our full backs. It was going from midway in our half to wide attacking positions. This season the back four is far flatter. It goes square and then into midfield and then out to the full backs because the opposition are vacating the wide areas and defending really narrow.

We won those long balls quite comfortably on most occasions so we were never pinned back, our set up was pretty much as normal. However, when we got into the final third and box, we had no quality and very little craft. I appreciate that in other games we have had to start deeper than normal. But that wasnt the case in the last two games.

I am a bit concerned that the way we play that the easy thing is to just not have the ball, pack the middle and give us no pressing opportunity. From that setup and with zero confidence, we run out of ideas.

If teams are well-organised, stay disciplined and defend deep with the expectation that they will get a chance on the counter then they will always be hard to break down. This season it is Liverpool last season it was City.

Even this season City had a run of 8 League games with only 10 goals.

Look at today they laboured to break down Cheltenham. Even then they only went ahead through a goal in which they had two players offside. Against Villa it was Rodri winning the ball after coming from a mile offside and a joke penalty.

Look at Southampton today. Trent fired in cross after cross against Burnley. Walker-Peters fires one in today, the first defender misses it, the second swings a leg and it is in the back of the net.

[Eeyore]

Those were all far better shouts. Officiating in that Southhampton game was a disgrace.

Agree with the penalty shout, but I would love someone to explain Fabinho getting booked and Barnes getting a walkover on the stroke of half time.

[killer-heels]

The key issue is the vertical distance between the centre backs and the full backs. Last season VVD in particular was hitting early 60 or 70 yard diagonals to our full backs. It was going from midway in our half to wide attacking positions. This season the back four is far flatter. It goes square and then into midfield and then out to the full backs because the opposition are vacating the wide areas and defending really narrow.

If teams are well-organised, stay disciplined and defend deep with the expectation that they will get a chance on the counter then they will always be hard to break down. This season it is Liverpool last season it was City.

Even this season City had a run of 8 League games with only 10 goals.

Look at today they laboured to break down Cheltenham. Even then they only went ahead through a goal in which they had two players offside. Against Villa it was Rodri winning the ball after coming from a mile offside and a joke penalty.

Look at Southampton today. Trent fired in cross after cross against Burnley. Walker-Peters fires one in today, the first defender misses it, the second swings a leg and it is in the back of the net.

But we lost Van Dijk a long while ago and we have had games without him. Also we are getting vertical passes to the forwards quicker thanks to Thiago but thats not being converted into quality shots on goal.

I understand than Van Dijk switched the play quicker but we have come across deep defences before.

I dont know, i think there may need to be a more fundamental shift to how we play. Pressing was a big factor and teams are just not bothering to play it out. Add to that a clear drop off from our attackers and its proving a real problem. 4 league games without a goal is pretty bad going.

[Eeyore]

But we lost Van Dijk a long while ago and we have had games without him. Also we are getting vertical passes to the forwards quicker thanks to Thiago but thats not being converted into quality shots on goal.

The xG hasn't really changed that much though with a few exceptions. In this run we have had an xG of 1.45 v West Brom, 1.32 v Newcastle, 1.37 v Southampton, 1.20 v United and 1.65 v Burnley. In all 5 games we had the higher xG and last season we would have probably taken 12 points plus.

To put that in to context prior to this run and post VVD being assaulted against Everton our xG was 2.4 v Sheff U, 1.56 v WHU, 1.19 v Man City, 3.77 v Leicester, .28 v Brighton , 1.59 v Wolves, 1.73 v Fulham, 1.22 v Spurs and 2.87 v Palace.

So us having an xG of 1.25 to 1.75 is pretty normal.

I understand than Van Dijk switched the play quicker but we have come across deep defences before.

I dont know, i think there may need to be a more fundamental shift to how we play. Pressing was a big factor and teams are just not bothering to play it out. Add to that a clear drop off from our attackers and its proving a real problem. 4 league games without a goal is pretty bad going.

Five games ago we were flying and odds on for the title. Since then, we have had a succession of games in which we have been the better side by a distance but haven't translated that into points.

[killer-heels]

The xG hasn't really changed that much though with a few exceptions. In this run we have had an xG of 1.45 v West Brom, 1.32 v Newcastle, 1.37 v Southampton, 1.20 v United and 1.65 v Burnley. In all 5 games we had the higher xG and last season we would have probably taken 12 points plus.

To put that in to context prior to this run and post VVD being assaulted against Everton our xG was 2.4 v Sheff U, 1.56 v WHU, 1.19 v Man City, 3.77 v Leicester, .28 v Brighton , 1.59 v Wolves, 1.73 v Fulham, 1.22 v Spurs and 2.87 v Palace.

So us having an xG of 1.25 to 1.75 is pretty normal.

Five games ago we were flying and odds on for the title. Since then, we have had a succession of games in which we have been the better side by a distance but haven't translated that into points.

Is there a site that lists those xG’s?

[Eeyore]

Is there a site that lists those xG’s?

I use understat.

This is worth a look. https://understat.com/league/EPL

Against xG United are plus 8 points, Everton are plus 9 points, and we are just under 1.5 points down.

Then look at last season and the difference is last season we won the tight games.

[killer-heels]

I use understat.

This is worth a look. https://understat.com/league/EPL

Against xG United are plus 8 points, Everton are plus 9 points, and we are just under 1.5 points down.

Then look at last season and the difference is last season we won the tight games.

It seems to show that we are where we should be and last season we over performed?

[Guz-kop]

The key issue is the vertical distance between the centre backs and the full backs. Last season VVD in particular was hitting early 60 or 70 yard diagonals to our full backs. It was going from midway in our half to wide attacking positions. This season the back four is far flatter. It goes square and then into midfield and then out to the full backs because the opposition are vacating the wide areas and defending really narrow.

If teams are well-organised, stay disciplined and defend deep with the expectation that they will get a chance on the counter then they will always be hard to break down. This season it is Liverpool last season it was City.

Even this season City had a run of 8 League games with only 10 goals.

Look at today they laboured to break down Cheltenham. Even then they only went ahead through a goal in which they had two players offside. Against Villa it was Rodri winning the ball after coming from a mile offside and a joke penalty.

Look at Southampton today. Trent fired in cross after cross against Burnley. Walker-Peters fires one in today, the first defender misses it, the second swings a leg and it is in the back of the net.

It's interesting how similar things feel to city last season. They lost 9 league games which is remarkable given they finished 2nd with 81 points and the quality they'd produced in the two previous seasons. 7 defeats were away from home. It got to a point last year that if teams got through the first 20 against City they were in with a real chance. They scored over a 100 goals but at times looked stale going forward and totally vulnerable at the back. They too lost a key centre back for most of the season

[killer-heels]

It's interesting how similar things feel to city last season. They lost 9 league games which is remarkable given they finished 2nd with 81 points and the quality they'd produced in the two previous seasons. 7 defeats were away from home. It got to a point last year that if teams got through the first 20 against City they were in with a real chance. They scored over a 100 goals but at times looked stale going forward and totally vulnerable at the back. They too lost a key centre back for most of the season

Thing is City actually were incredibly creative last season, it’s just teams could also get at them. At no point did you wonder when they would score.

If anything the goals dried up this season but that may have been a transition to a different style.

[Eeyore]

It seems to show that we are where we should be and last season we over performed?

Last season we did over perform against xG. That was probably why we were called mentality monsters we won pretty much every tight game.

This season the interesting one is xPTS.

That would have


City on 39 points
Liverpool on 35 points
United on 32 points
Leicester on 31 points

[Eeyore]

It's interesting how similar things feel to city last season. They lost 9 league games which is remarkable given they finished 2nd with 81 points and the quality they'd produced in the two previous seasons. 7 defeats were away from home. It got to a point last year that if teams got through the first 20 against City they were in with a real chance. They scored over a 100 goals but at times looked stale going forward and totally vulnerable at the back. They too lost a key centre back for most of the season

They also tended to score goals in gluts they got 8 against Watford we got 7 versus Palace. They got loads of 4s or 5s. We got 4 against Leeds and Wolves, 3 against Arsenal and Leicester.

That is why I am looking forward to games against teams who will have a go. Games in which a trio of Hendo, Thiago and Gini will work wonders.

[Guz-kop]

Thing is City actually were incredibly creative last season, it’s just teams could also get at them. At no point did you wonder when they would score.

If anything the goals dried up this season but that may have been a transition to a different style.

Most of the time they were, yes. I'd say they've also been more creative and likely to score goals then than us in the last 3 years. But last year they scored 7 in the 9 defeats they had. Drew blanks in a couple of them. They either blew teams away in the first half an hour or they gave the opposition a sniff
In 18/19 they had a goal difference of 72 which is insane.

They've definitely changed things up this season to minimise teams breaking on them. Like all teams they've had to adapt and we'll need to do the same

[Eeyore]

Most of the time they were, yes. I'd say they've also been more creative and likely to score goals then than us in the last 3 years. But last year they scored 7 in the 9 defeats they had. Drew blanks in a couple of them. They either blew teams away in the first half an hour or they gave the opposition a sniff
In 18/19 they had a goal difference of 72 which is insane.

They've definitely changed things up this season to minimise teams breaking on them. Like all teams they've had to adapt and we'll need to do the same

Yeah I agree with that.

The only thing I am not sure about is City changing things to minimise teams breaking on them. Was it a conscious decision to be tighter during transitions or just a bi product of David Silva leaving and both their 9's in Jesus and Aguero being injured.

Last season City didn't get much defensive output from Silva, Jesus and Kun.

[HomesickRed]

What's the solution that's staring us in the face and how do we go about implementing it?

As mentioned previously, once in a while it pays to give the opposition the ball for a bit.
That is where we get our best chances against teams that park the bus.

[Ghost Town]

As mentioned previously, once in a while it pays to give the opposition the ball for a bit.
That is where we get our best chances against teams that park the bus.

Right. But will the opposition play that game, essentially play into our hands, if we 'give them the ball'? Especially if they've been set up not to do anything attackwise other than wait until we are committed forward and then break with a long ball out.

That's what I mean by how do we go about implementing this solution.

[kasperoff]

Agree with the penalty shout, but I would love someone to explain Fabinho getting booked and Barnes getting a walkover on the stroke of half time.

Yep. Was a bad one. Yet another pointless use or VAR. Review the yellow given, but ignore the other office that the ref missed.

[HomesickRed]

Right. But will the opposition play that game, essentially play into our hands, if we 'give them the ball'? Especially if they've been set up not to do anything attackwise other than wait until we are committed forward and then break with a long ball out.

That's what I mean by how do we go about implementing this solution.

You simply give ground before pressing them. That opens up spaces for us to exploit. We excel at it. Look at our best chances against Burnley.