Topic: Arsenal

[The North Bank]

Thats the point isnt it? Winning both in the same season.

If we win the league but dont win the CL then even we shouldnt get mentioned as the best side.

Even if you don't win CL this season, youre still the best team in Europe.  Atletico could get a lucky away goal and knock you out. There still wouldn't be a better team than you in Europe.

[FlashGordon]

It’s a European cup. Not a European league, cups aren’t always won by the best teams . By the time we got to the final, and nearly won it with 10 men, it was with a team that was an embarrassment compared to the “invincibles “.

If you're truly one of the greatest you'll win in Europe eventually.

[ScottishGoon]

There are a number of sides that could beat your 03-04 side as well. But thats not the point.

The point is what is the biggest achievement and honour that a team can do. If anything that is held by the 99 Utd side.

I'd agree with that. Ours is a very unique achievement, that's why we are proud & protective of it, & possibly by the fact its not been diluted in any way by other English teams achieving it. I'm certainly not arguing that it's the best achievement though.

[FlashGordon]

Was ironic eh? They said Wenger couldn't build a defence, & the year we got to the final we set a record for clean sheets with a defence mostly comprised of Eboue, Toure, Senderos & Flamini. 

We're not talking about that side though.

[killer-heels]

Even if you don't win CL this season, youre still the best team in Europe.  Atletico could get a lucky away goal and knock you out. There still wouldn't be a better team than you in Europe.

Probably, but thats not based on fact but opinion. I believe we are but if we truly are, we win it.

But to be considered one of the best ever sides we have to win it. First world problems and all that.

[The North Bank]

If you're truly one of the greatest you'll win in Europe eventually.

As a club, you need to win CL, to join that group of clubs that have won it. I don't think it defines the quality of a team though. Its a cup competition. Brazil 82 and Holland with Cruyff, never won the world cup, remembered far more than Germany of 74  and Italy of 82.

[killer-heels]

I'd agree with that. Ours is a very unique achievement, that's why we are proud & protective of it, & possibly by the fact its not been diluted in any way by other English teams achieving it. I'm certainly not arguing that it's the best achievement though.

Many Arsenal fans say that its the greatest achievement by any side ever. They say it makes what they achieved more glorious than any side.

[FlashGordon]

As a club, you need to win CL, to join that group of clubs that have won it. I don't think it defines the quality of a team though.

I respectfully disagree, if you're truly special as a team you get it done over a 3 or 4 year period. It's enough time to account for the luck aspect.

[farawayred]

As a club, you need to win CL, to join that group of clubs that have won it. I don't think it defines the quality of a team though. Its a cup competition. Brazil 82 and Holland with Cruyff, never won the world cup, remembered far more than Germany of 74  and Italy of 82.

Not really, you can make either point with examples. What about Perugia 1979? They were invincible, 11 wins 19 draws, finished second to Juve, and there was no Champions League at that time so they had to play in the UEFA Cup. Never won anything. Does anyone talk about Perugia now?

[ScottishGoon]

We're not talking about that side though.

The post I quoted was talking about that side though, that's why I quoted it and added to it. 

Many Arsenal fans say that its the greatest achievement by any side ever. They say it makes what they achieved more glorious than any side.

If that's what they are saying, then in my opinion they are wrong. They are probably saying that as that's something they 'own' currently in this league. If it gets repeated it will soon dilute their opinion.

[The North Bank]

Not really, you can make either point with examples. What about Perugia 1979? They were invincible, 11 wins 19 draws, finished second to Juve, and there was no Champions League at that time so they had to play in the UEFA Cup. Never won anything. Does anyone talk about Perugia now?

Had they lost a game, they wouldn't have made it into this thread. So it wasn't all for nothing.

My point is that the quality of a team isn't always defined by what they win. The reputation of the club is.
The Liverpool team under Rodgers that nearly won the league were better than the 05 team, that won CL, even though they won nothing.

[BobPaisley3]

Even if you don't win CL this season, youre still the best team in Europe.  Atletico could get a lucky away goal and knock you out. There still wouldn't be a better team than you in Europe.

I see where you’re coming from, that 2008 yernited team were a John Terry penalty away from losing and were outplayed for most parts of that final. Yes they won it but it’s not always the best team that does. We were a John Stones goal line clearance away from going unbeaten last year and I think we were better than City despite them winning it and we’ve ultimately proved it this year. Unfortunately the history books aren’t reflective of such things.

[killer-heels]

Had they lost a game, they wouldn't have made it into this thread. So it wasn't all for nothing.

My point is that the quality of a team isn't always defined by what they win. The reputation of the club is.
The Liverpool team under Rodgers that nearly won the league were better than the 05 team, that won CL, even though they won nothing.

Yes but we are not discussing those sides because neither are worthy.

But again it highlights that its all about winning both. Its winning the league and CL, together in one season which makes you the best side. It illustrates that you can handle any situation.

[farawayred]

Had they lost a game, they wouldn't have made it into this thread. So it wasn't all for nothing.

My point is that the quality of a team isn't always defined by what they win. The reputation of the club is.
The Liverpool team under Rodgers that nearly won the league were better than the 05 team, that won CL, even though they won nothing.

I agree with that 100%. Most of the time, the best teams win the biggest trophies, but sometimes they don't. Leicester winning the PL, Cruyff's Holland not winning the WC are examples of such outliers. And I do agree that teams are judged on global perception more so than on quantifiable records, then logical arguments are made to embody that into a model of some sort. 

I also agree with the your assessment of Rodgers' team vs the '05 team. But I really can't agree that the Invincibles tag, which you should carry with pride, is of more value to you than Big Ears. That's not true for all Arsenal fans, and maybe I'm just being thick, but I just don't get it - a record versus a major trophy. If it was the Mickey Mouse cup, the Charity Shield, or something of that irk, yeah, I'd go for the record. But if it was the League or EC title, there is no question which is of more value to me.

This is an opinion, of course, you can't argue with mine, and I can't argue with yours. I'm not trying to debate your priorities, it's fine to feel either way.

[The North Bank]

Yes but we are not discussing those sides because neither are worthy.

But again it highlights that its all about winning both. Its winning the league and CL, together in one season which makes you the best side. It illustrates that you can handle any situation.

That's just a weird standard you introduced. You won Cl last season, youll win the league this season. There is no way you can diminish how great that is by saying its not in the same season. If you defend CL its incredible, but you've reached incredible status already. You need to also take into account money spent, where you came from, how the team was built, the whole journey etc.
Dont be a whopper all your life. Treeless or not. 

[Crosby Nick]

We’d smash any of these teams. 49 unbeaten without ever bothering with tactics. It doesn’t happen , unless you have a ridiculous group of players.
Should’ve never lost the 50th game too. If VAR  was around we’d have won so much more. Giving arsenal a kicking was lauded in the media as Britain striking back against those french invaders and the officials felt it was part of their patriotic duty. Things are far less xenophobic now.

We did beat you fair and square a few games later. Happy to take the credit for it for ending your run if you want.

[The North Bank]

I agree with that 100%. Most of the time, the best teams win the biggest trophies, but sometimes they don't. Leicester winning the PL, Cruyff's Holland not winning the WC are examples of such outliers. And I do agree that teams are judged on global perception more so than on quantifiable records, then logical arguments are made to embody that into a model of some sort. 

I also agree with the your assessment of Rodgers' team vs the '05 team. But I really can't agree that the Invincibles tag, which you should carry with pride, is of more value to you than Big Ears. That's not true for all Arsenal fans, and maybe I'm just being thick, but I just don't get it - a record versus a major trophy. If it was the Mickey Mouse cup, the Charity Shield, or something of that irk, yeah, I'd go for the record. But if it was the League or EC title, there is no question which is of more value to me.

This is an opinion, of course, you can't argue with mine, and I can't argue with yours. I'm not trying to debate your priorities, it's fine to feel either way.

Ofcourse CL is more important than going unbeaten..... I just made an argument that its harder to go unbeaten than to win CL, so I wouldn't give it up, its not actually a trophy (even though we got one for it ). From an Arsenal point of view, we are miles away from doing either , but I can see us one day possibly fluking a CL, cant see us going unbeaten again.. Even Spurs got to the CL  final last season, and they lose every week.

[The North Bank]

We did beat you fair and square a few games later. Happy to take the credit for it for ending your run if you want.

was that Neil Mellor?

[Crosby Nick]

was that Neil Mellor?

Sounds like your memory’s a little hazy.

[killer-heels]

That's just a weird standard you introduced. You won Cl last season, youll win the league this season. There is no way you can diminish how great that is by saying its not in the same season. If you defend CL its incredible, but you've reached incredible status already. You need to also take into account money spent, where you came from, how the team was built, the whole journey etc.
Dont be a whopper all your life. Treeless or not. 

Its not the same though. When we are talking about the best achievement then that involves overcoming any situation that season threw up and that resulted in winning the biggest trophies.

This season if we win the league but fail to beat Atletico then this team should not be mentioned alongside the greatest sides ever because it wasnt able to overcome every obstacle in this season.

The CL is the biggest trophy of them all, ahead of the league as well. Its the most important trophy. To do that alongside the league makes you the best.

[farawayred]

Ofcourse CL is more important than going unbeaten..... I just made an argument that its harder to go unbeaten than to win CL, so I wouldn't give it up, its not actually a trophy (even though we got one for it ). From an Arsenal point of view, we are miles away from doing either , but I can see us one day possibly fluking a CL, cant see us going unbeaten again.. Even Spurs got to the CL  final last season, and they lose every week.

Well, I hope I don't sound as a prick, but from your perspective it wasn't easier to win the CL than the unbeaten record. I don't mean this as a dig, as you almost won it a few seasons later and would have been deserved if you did.

[killer-heels]

Ofcourse CL is more important than going unbeaten..... I just made an argument that its harder to go unbeaten than to win CL, so I wouldn't give it up, its not actually a trophy (even though we got one for it ). From an Arsenal point of view, we are miles away from doing either , but I can see us one day possibly fluking a CL, cant see us going unbeaten again.. Even Spurs got to the CL  final last season, and they lose every week.

The problem is that you downplay the CL. We in 05 and Spurs dedicated everything to the CL as well to get far. A top side should not have to do that.

[The North Bank]

Its not the same though. When we are talking about the best achievement then that involves overcoming any situation that season threw up and that resulted in winning the biggest trophies.

This season if we win the league but fail to beat Atletico then this team should not be mentioned alongside the greatest sides ever because it wasnt able to overcome every obstacle in this season.

The CL is the biggest trophy of them all, ahead of the league as well. Its the most important trophy. To do that alongside the league makes you the best.

I get what you're trying to say, I just don't think that, conceivably, a bad VAR decision, or just rotten luck over 90 minutes vs atletico, should rob you from calling this team great, after it won CL and went 44 unbeaten to win the league after so long, and it wasn't decked out with petro dollar money. It ticks all the boxes for me, I dont think you can ask for more.

[deFacto please, you bastards]

Ofcourse CL is more important than going unbeaten..... I just made an argument that its harder to go unbeaten than to win CL, so I wouldn't give it up, its not actually a trophy (even though we got one for it ). From an Arsenal point of view, we are miles away from doing either , but I can see us one day possibly fluking a CL, cant see us going unbeaten again.. Even Spurs got to the CL  final last season, and they lose every week.

I agree with this, because we did it all in a 12 month period. Another CL run further elevates that, but even without it, it's still a great side.

[killer-heels]

I get what you're trying to say, I just don't think that, conceivably, a bad VAR decision, or just rotten luck over 90 minutes vs atletico, should rob you from calling this team great, after it won CL and went 44 unbeaten to win the league after so long, and it wasn't decked out with petro dollar money. It ticks all the boxes for me, I dont think you can ask for more.

I am not asking for more. Its more than done enough and then some.

But thats different to being classed as the best side ever or the best achievement in a single season ever. Then, if we dont beat Atletico and win the thing, the team falls short.

[The North Bank]

Well, I hope I don't sound as a prick, but from your perspective it wasn't easier to win the CL than the unbeaten record. I don't mean this as a dig, as you almost won it a few seasons later and would have been deserved if you did.

Im looking at it from the future perspective. When we nearly won it, we had an average team with a couple of top class players at the time (henry and cesc). I believe we are capable of getting that again, I dont think we ll ever have a team that can go a whole season unbeaten again.
Im not saying we are close to winning CL, we cant even get in the damm thing. I just see a route somehow one day, I dont see us repeating another unbeaten season.

[killer-heels]

Im looking at it from the future perspective. When we nearly won it, we had an average team with a couple of top class players at the time (henry and cesc). I believe we are capable of getting that again, I dont think we ll ever have a team that can go a whole season unbeaten again.
Im not saying we are close to winning CL, we cant even get in the damm thing. I just see a route somehow one day, I dont see us repeating another unbeaten season.

Problem is that reads as if you disrespect the CL.

We didnt fluke the CL in 05. We beat the best sides in England and Italy to do so.

[The North Bank]

The problem is that you downplay the CL. We in 05 and Spurs dedicated everything to the CL as well to get far. A top side should not have to do that.

Its the biggest trophy in club football, my worst night in football was when Chelsea won it, and had spurs won it last season that would have been the end of me (thank you lfc). I know how massive it is, that's the not the argument. I think that the club we are, and the league we play in, and the money in the premier league, we could one day have a shot it at it again. I dont see us going 38 unbeaten so I wouldn't give the record up.

[killer-heels]

Its the biggest trophy in club football, my worst night in football was when Chelsea won it, and had spurs won it last season that would have been the end of me (thank you lfc). I know how massive it is, that's the not the argument. I think that the club we are, and the league we play in, and the money in the premier league, we could one day have a shot it at it again. I dont see us going 38 unbeaten so I wouldn't give the record up.

I wouldnt ever give up a single CL trophy for an unbeaten record.

Also if you offered me a chance of winning the CL with a place in the final vs an unbeaten record i would still take the former.

Again, I dont think you realise how special it is to win the CL.

[The North Bank]

I wouldnt ever give up a single CL trophy for an unbeaten record.

Also if you offered me a chance of winning the CL with a place in the final vs an unbeaten record i would still take the former.

Again, I dont think you realise how special it is to win the CL.

Had we won CL then, I also wouldn't swap it for an unbeaten record. But the way things worked out, feels right.

[The North Bank]

Not a bad weekend for us after the EL debacle. Our unbeaten run survives for another season, our 49 games unbeaten for another couple of years, Utd Spurs Chelsea all drop points, and we get through in the cup with a decent showing from the kids. Our season is just about still alive.

[ScottishGoon]

Not a bad weekend for us after the EL debacle. Our unbeaten run survives for another season, our 49 games unbeaten for another couple of years, Utd Spurs Chelsea all drop points, and we get through in the cup with a decent showing from the kids. Our season is just about still alive.

We really could do with Mari becoming a good option for us. Would help with funds elsewhere if we didn't have to splash out big for a centre back next window given how limited our funds are.

[Sheer Magnetism]

I wouldnt ever give up a single CL trophy for an unbeaten record.

Also if you offered me a chance of winning the CL with a place in the final vs an unbeaten record i would still take the former.

Again, I dont think you realise how special it is to win the CL.

Really? You wouldn't swap being only the second team in the modern era to go unbeaten through a season for having seven CL trophies instead of six? You don't think something that's been done once before is that special compared to something English teams have done 13 times before? I mean, you're entitled to your opinion and all but we may have to disagree on this one. If we'd pulled it off I'd never let United and City fans hear the end of it.

[deFacto please, you bastards]

Really? You wouldn't swap being only the second team in the modern era to go unbeaten through a season for having seven CL trophies instead of six? You don't think something that's been done once before is that special compared to something English teams have done 13 times before? I mean, you're entitled to your opinion and all but we may have to disagree on this one. If we'd pulled it off I'd never let United and City fans hear the end of it.

Nah I'd rather have #7, we'd be the 2nd joint side with the most European cups and would give me more gratification than going unbeaten. The European Cup is the biggest prize in club football.

[Cpt_Reina]

Ask Arsenal fans if they'd like to keep the league title of the invincibles but lose the unbeaten tag in exchange for a league and CL double that year and Id be interested to see what they'd say.

Personally think they'd be mental to choose to keep the invincibles. But they are largely mental so who knows.

[The North Bank]

Ask Arsenal fans if they'd like to keep the league title of the invincibles but lose the unbeaten tag in exchange for a league and CL double that year and Id be interested to see what they'd say.

Personally think they'd be mental to choose to keep the invincibles. But they are largely mental so who knows.

Definitely Invincibles , no one else has ever done it.

But that's purely because I don't see us (or anyone else)ever going unbeaten a whole season again.
I think with a bit of luck we could fluke a CL one day.

[deFacto please, you bastards]

Definitely Invincibles , no one else has ever done it.

But that's purely because I don't see us (or anyone else)ever going unbeaten a whole season again.
I think with a bit of luck we could fluke a CL one day.

To me that's mental. Winning the European cup puts you into the history books of world football, particularly if you do it more than once. personally you underachieved because you didn't get to a EC final with that side, and I would hold that to a much higher regard had you done that in that period from [01-04] whilst you were at your peak.

I think within the UK, it will be remembered far more [that you were unbeaten] than to anyone else within Europe and the rest of the world.

[Kekule]

However unlikely it may seem at the time of setting them records can be broken or matched, but no-one can ever take a League Championship/European Cup/FA cup off you (unless you've been extremely naughty like Marseille or Juventus).

We win whatever we win this year and it's permanent. It will always be in the books.  Any records that come with it are nice, but are temporary. 

You pay your money, you take your choice, but I'd rather we won a plurality of shiny things, rather than one shiny thing with a few bells and whistles on that might one day be transferred to someone else's shiny thing.

[The North Bank]

To me that's mental. Winning the European cup puts you into the history books of world football, particularly if you do it more than once. personally you underachieved because you didn't get to a EC final with that side, and I would hold that to a much higher regard had you done that in that period from [01-04] whilst you were at your peak.

I think within the UK, it will be remembered far more [that you were unbeaten] than to anyone else within Europe and the rest of the world.

That's 100% true, but I am in the UK and that Arsenal team gets talked about a lot more than other English teams that won CL, because it stands alone with this unbeaten record.
I can only answer what feels better if we ever win the CL, and its only natural that Liverpool fans now say it doesn't matter to go unbeaten because its no longer possible. A couple of weeks ago they were calling radio stations saying going unbeaten is bigger than another CL win.

[deFacto please, you bastards]

That's 100% true, but I am in the UK and that Arsenal team gets talked about a lot more than other English teams that won CL, because it stands alone with this unbeaten record.
I can only answer what feels better if we ever win the CL, and its only natural that Liverpool fans now say it doesn't matter to go unbeaten because its no longer possible. A couple of weeks ago they were calling radio stations saying going unbeaten is bigger than another CL win.

Those Liverpool fans don't speak for all of us. I've been saying all season long that I'd rather win the EC than go unbeaten. In fact, had it not been 30 years since we won the league, the CL would be just as important this year or more so than the league. Defending it is very difficult in modern football, only Real have done it, and I've thought that us being able to do that [and also get to our 3rd EC final consecutively] would propel us further in the history books.

now, there are plenty of people on here who won't agree with me, but there's nothing like winning the EC. And that will never change in my mind.