Topic: Arsenal

[ScottishGoon]

Its Arsenal’s CL that unbeaten run. They try to use that to big up the Arsenal side and elevate them to some of the better sides in the league.

Without it, that team doesnt get talked up or mentioned as the best Premier League side.

As I said in our threads, if you want to be the best or considered as the best, you need to win the league and CL in one season.

If course without it might not be considered the best, but it does have it, that's the point. People might not think it as the best of the Premiership era, but it deserves to be in the conversation, like the Utd sides of 99 or the Ronaldo era side, the Chelsea sides of Mourinho's first 2 seasons, the City side of last season, & the Liverpool side of this season.

Not to call you an idiot, because that’d be terribly rude.....

I’d ‘maybe’ prefer it to a League Cup win. Maybe, just. But over the European Cup, and for a club who hasn’t really even come close to winning it? Nah that’s just batshit crazy. Frankly if you’d won the CL instead of gone unbeaten that season I dare say you wouldn’t be 16 years down the line waiting for another league title. To have won the CL when you were that good would have been far bigger for that teams legacy and far more important in building for the future.

We were 14mins away from winning it, think that was pretty close.
To be honest, I doubt it would have made much difference to the legacy going forward.

We would have still lost the players that we did, we would have still had to make a profit each season during the early years of the stadium move, Abramovich & the Sheikh would have still pumped billions into their clubs. I doubt it would have stopped Gazidas from the +1p bid, or kept us from basically totally losing Diaby, Rosicky, Wilshere, Eduardo, Cazorla & Vermaelen to injury, or tipped us to actually buy a top central defender or defensive midfielder.

[The North Bank]

An unbeaten season over a CL win is one of the maddest shouts I have ever heard.

You get to hear all sorts here.

[killer-heels]

If course without it might not be considered the best, but it does have it, that's the point. People might not think it as the best of the Premiership era, but it deserves to be in the conversation, like the Utd sides of 99 or the Ronaldo era side, the Chelsea sides of Mourinho's first 2 seasons, the City side of last season, & the Liverpool side of this season.
We were 14mins away from winning it, think that was pretty close.

No it doesnt and the Chelsea side doesn't either. The best teams are the ones that win a CL and League in the same season and when we are talking about the best they are the only sides in the conversation.

Everything else is just padding. I have said before on our on threads that the unbeaten run does not matter to me at all and I was thinking about the Atletico game ever since Wolves beat City over Christmas.

[Lusty]

In the current era with the gap between rich and poor clubs, and teams getting point totals that were unheard of 15-20 years ago, it won't be long before another team does it. City without CL football just might see that as a target instead.

What's really going to devalue the invincibles tag is when someone does it and doesn't win the league. Liverpool came close to that last season.

[BobPaisley3]

In the current era with the gap between rich and poor clubs, and teams getting point totals that were unheard of 15-20 years ago, it won't be long before another team does it. City without CL football just might see that as a target instead.

What's really going to devalue the invincibles tag is when someone does it and doesn't win the league. Liverpool came close to that last season.

The thing is, if we’d gone unbeaten last year we wouldn’t have finished second.

[ScottishGoon]

No it doesnt and the Chelsea side doesn't either. The best teams are the ones that win a CL and League in the same season and when we are talking about the best they are the only sides in the conversation.

Everything else is just padding. I have said before on our on threads that the unbeaten run does not matter to me at all and I was thinking about the Atletico game ever since Wolves beat City over Christmas.

Is it just you that sets the criteria like? So you honestly think if Liverpool went the rest of the season winning every game, but say they lost in the Champions League final on penalties, they don't deserve to be in the conversation for best teams?

Those teams all had different facets that still made them unique. Utds treble, Mourinho's unheard of at the time consistency at points totals, Arsenal going unbeaten, City's all conquering domestic team. You have your criteria of what makes the best team, doesn't mean others dont deserve to put their name in the conversation.

[The North Bank]

Its the hardest thing to do, 38 games, never once coming second best. All it needs is one bad day, and the record goes, like Liverpool found out yesterday.
That's why its so special, and why the team that did it, is the best in the premier league era for me (also played the best football, did the double before, and had the best player in premier league history). There's a lot going for that team. And every season the media will bring them up again, whenever someone passes 20 games unbeaten. You could see it was in the Liverpool player's minds, they have been playing tight and restricted lately, like we were when the record got close and we started drawing a lot of games. Tough thing to do. Easier to set a large points total when you can express yourself and play freely not worried about a single defeat robbing you of a record.

[killer-heels]

Is it just you that sets the criteria like? So you honestly think if Liverpool went the rest of the season winning every game, but say they lost in the Champions League final on penalties, they don't deserve to be in the conversation for best teams?

Those teams all had different facets that still made them unique. Utds treble, Mourinho's unheard of at the time consistency at points totals, Arsenal going unbeaten, City's all conquering domestic team. You have your criteria of what makes the best team, doesn't mean others dont deserve to put their name in the conversation.

To be the best of all time you have had to be the best in England and Europe and the only way you do that is win both competition. Whether you lose on penalties is beyond the point. The point is that the best teams win, not lose in unlucky circumstances.

Trophies will always be the yardstick for success. Thats been the case forever and will continue be thus.

That Arsenal side were fantastic. But they are not in the conversation because they didnt win the CL. Thats the same with the Liverpool side of the late 80’s.

[The G in Gerrard]

Getting 101 points is more important than the invincible tag.

[El Lobo]

Its the hardest thing to do, 38 games, never once coming second best. All it needs is one bad day, and the record goes, like Liverpool found out yesterday.
That's why its so special, and why the team that did it, is the best in the premier league era for me (also played the best football, did the double before, and had the best player in premier league history). There's a lot going for that team. And every season the media will bring them up again, whenever someone passes 20 games unbeaten. You could see it was in the Liverpool player's minds, they have been playing tight and restricted lately, like we were when the record got close and we started drawing a lot of games. Tough thing to do. Easier to set a large points total when you can express yourself and play freely not worried about a single defeat robbing you of a record.

Extrapolating something that isn’t actually true there, I suspect. We’ve already won as many games this season as your lot did when you went unbeaten. Last night happened because our level has dropped since our winter break, simple as that. This team wants to win trophies, that’s the greatest thing to do and the greatest legacy for a team.

Milan did it in 91/92, who even knows that? It’s considered a great side of that era....because they also won European Cups. Ajax did it in 94/95, who even knew that? That side of that season is looked back upon....because it also won the European Cup. Absolutely no one says ‘remember the invincible Ajax side....oh yeah, they won the CL too’. Juve, Porto (twice) and Celtic did it in the last decade. Who even knows that, apart from their own fans? People don’t look back upon the great Porto team of 2013, they look back upon the Porto side who also won the CL. The Celtic side will be looked back on because they won a domestic treble by their own fans. By the rest of the world, they’d be FAR more memorable if they’d won the CL or even the Europa.

Is it the hardest thing to do? Maybe coming to that conclusion because so few English sides have done it but how many teams start a season thinking ‘right let’s really go hard to be unbeaten this season’? The media bring it up because the media have to fill pages. They’ve spent the last month constantly trying to crown the greatest team in top flight history.

And don’t get me wrong by the way, I think that side is up there as one of the best ever in this league. But not because you went unbeaten but because you were genuinely brilliant. The likes of Henry, Vieira, Bergkamp and Pires don’t suddenly become worse if you’d lost once but if you’d gone on to win the CL that season and then won the league or CL again the season after? Doubt there’d even be a debate.

[Achilles Heel]

Is it just you that sets the criteria like? So you honestly think if Liverpool went the rest of the season winning every game, but say they lost in the Champions League final on penalties, they don't deserve to be in the conversation for best teams?

Those teams all had different facets that still made them unique. Utds treble, Mourinho's unheard of at the time consistency at points totals, Arsenal going unbeaten, City's all conquering domestic team. You have your criteria of what makes the best team, doesn't mean others dont deserve to put their name in the conversation.

Pretty much this.

Whilst I didn't vote for Arsenal  they did top the poll less than 18 months ago  on here for best team in PL history:

https://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=341237.msg16286199#msg16286199

[Crosby Nick]

I’ve stuck up for the Arsenal Invincibles but every Gooner I know has crawled out of the woodwork since last night!

You also need luck, like the United missed penalty and no VAR to overturn the odd bought penalty. It’s a great achievement and I can see why you’re proud of it. It is hard to do because one poor performance and you’re gone. But then again, getting close to and hopefully beyond 100 points is also hard to do because you have to be  incredibly consistent for a full season (or two). As and when we get over the line very few of us are going to give a shit about not being unbeaten.

[Crosby Nick]

Pretty much this.

Whilst I didn't vote for Arsenal  they did top the poll less than 18 months ago  on here for best team in PL history:

https://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=341237.msg16286199#msg16286199

To be honest, no proper Liverpool fan should be voting for United or Chelsea so they had a pretty clear run at it.

[killer-heels]

Pretty much this.

Whilst I didn't vote for Arsenal  they did top the poll less than 18 months ago  on here for best team in PL history:

https://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=341237.msg16286199#msg16286199

I cant remember what I voted for in that list.

I know for certain though that the CL is much, much better than an unbeaten league season.

[The North Bank]

Pretty much this.

Whilst I didn't vote for Arsenal  they did top the poll less than 18 months ago  on here for best team in PL history:

https://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=341237.msg16286199#msg16286199

Rawk has always been the place for the brightest football minds, and everyone knows that Liverpool fans are the most knowledgeable in the country.

[Passmaster Molby]

I think our defeat yesterday just proves how tough it is to remain unbeaten for 38 games in a season, and whilst we have done that over two seasons, to do it in a full season with no break shows how impressive that Arsenal side was.

[Jshooters]

Rawk has always been the place for the brightest football minds, and everyone knows that Liverpool fans are the most knowledgeable in the country.

 

[Zlen]

I think our defeat yesterday just proves how tough it is to remain unbeaten for 38 games in a season, and whilst we have done that over two seasons, to do it in a full season with no break shows how impressive that Arsenal side was.

It's impressive, but it's still not in itself enough to call them the greatest of all time.
Points are more important and victories are more difficult than draws. We have equaled their number of victories for season in February and will very likely leave their 26 wins and 90 points far behind us by the end of the season. We are chasing highest points total, they were happy to squeeze draws and preserve the title of Invincibles. I know Arsenal fans will do all kinds of mental gymnastics to say that that team is the best of all time, but in reality, they were already left behind by Manchester City on several occasions and even our last years 97 points, 1 defeat, CL winning team is better than that Arsenal side.

[killer-heels]

It's impressive, but it's still not in itself enough to call them the greatest of all time.
Points are more important and victories are more difficult than draws. We have equaled their number of victories for season in February and will very likely leave their 26 wins and 90 points far behind us by the end of the season. We are chasing highest points total, they were happy to squeeze draws and preserve the title of Invincibles. I know Arsenal fans will do all kinds of mental gymnastics to say that that team is the best of all time, but in reality, they were already left behind by Manchester City on several occasions and even our last years 97 points, 1 defeat, CL winning team is better than that Arsenal side.

Points and wins dont matter in itself, its trophies.

No way am I classing our side last season better than Arsenal’s because we didnt win. It cannot be in the conversation.

That Arsenal side were brilliant but they are not the greatest side. If its only PL era then its 99 and 08 United sides.

[Ghost Town]

It does show just how hard it is to go a season unbeaten, and Arsenal fans should be justly pleased that they managed it, regardless of any talk about best sides or whatever.

I reckon Klopp's Liverpool have as good a chance as any to go a season unbeaten at some point over the next few years, but even if we don't, I do think it will happen again, at some point, just as I believe that one day a side will win 38/38. If it's doable it will eventually happen.

[ScottishGoon]

To be the best of all time you have had to be the best in England and Europe and the only way you do that is win both competition. Whether you lose on penalties is beyond the point. The point is that the best teams win, not lose in unlucky circumstances.

Trophies will always be the yardstick for success. Thats been the case forever and will continue be thus.

That Arsenal side were fantastic. But they are not in the conversation because they didnt win the CL. Thats the same with the Liverpool side of the late 80’s.

Can I just say, I never ever once categorised us as the best of all time. The teams I'm throwing in are English teams of the Premiership era, which is also roughly when the European Cup changed format to the Champions League, so I wasn't including any of the great Liverpool teams of the past, or the Milan teams or Barcelona teams or that, as I don't think they were.

Im also not saying that Arsenal team was the best in the era I'm talking about, just that in my opinion they deserve to be in the conversation. And the fact they get thrown into every topic or poll about the subject suggests most others do to.

Im also not trivialising your current achievements. What you guys are doing just now is phenomenonal, and I ook on with both awe & envy just now.

[jillcwhomever]

Can I just say, I never ever once categorised us as the best of all time. The teams I'm throwing in are English teams of the Premiership era, which is also roughly when the European Cup changed format to the Champions League, so I wasn't including any of the great Liverpool teams of the past, or the Milan teams or Barcelona teams or that, as I don't think they were.

Im also not saying that Arsenal team was the best in the era I'm talking about, just that in my opinion they deserve to be in the conversation. And the fact they get thrown into every topic or poll about the subject suggests most others do to.

Im also not trivialising your current achievements. What you guys are doing just now is phenomenonal, and I ook on with both awe & envy just now.

I agree, they deserve to be in the conversation. I do belong to the group who would prefer winning titles to being invincible, but that is no reason to look down on what that Arsenal team achieved. The fact that the record has lasted this long, shows you how difficult it is to achieve. I also think that records are not something that interests a manager like Klopp. When he was appointed Liverpool manager his challenge was to turn us around and get us challenging for titles and other honours, it wasn't to become the new Invincibles. It is merely something the media and some of our fans have been engaged in. It is just another thing to beat a team with if they come up short. 

[killer-heels]

Can I just say, I never ever once categorised us as the best of all time. The teams I'm throwing in are English teams of the Premiership era, which is also roughly when the European Cup changed format to the Champions League, so I wasn't including any of the great Liverpool teams of the past, or the Milan teams or Barcelona teams or that, as I don't think they were.

Im also not saying that Arsenal team was the best in the era I'm talking about, just that in my opinion they deserve to be in the conversation. And the fact they get thrown into every topic or poll about the subject suggests most others do to.

Im also not trivialising your current achievements. What you guys are doing just now is phenomenonal, and I ook on with both awe & envy just now.

The conversation is only a conversation because fans are influenced by the media. We have been brainwashed into making certain things important, whether we should be or not.

There is no conversation. If we are talking about the best side in the past 30 years that have come from England, its Utd 99 or 08. End of. That's why I am desperate for us to win the league and CL because then that is us in that conversation. We can then debate which of those 3 teams are better and things like points, number of defeats etc can be expanded upon.

If we don't win the CL, we are not in the conversation, no matter how many points we amass. Its first world problems and all that but when you want to be in the conversation for best ever, then you need to achieve the top feat.

[deFacto please, you bastards]

The 08 United side is better than their 99 side by a country mile.

[ScottishGoon]

The conversation is only a conversation because fans are influenced by the media. We have been brainwashed into making certain things important, whether we should be or not.

There is no conversation. If we are talking about the best side in the past 30 years that have come from England, its Utd 99 or 08. End of. That's why I am desperate for us to win the league and CL because then that is us in that conversation. We can then debate which of those 3 teams are better and things like points, number of defeats etc can be expanded upon.

If we don't win the CL, we are not in the conversation, no matter how many points we amass. Its first world problems and all that but when you want to be in the conversation for best ever, then you need to achieve the top feat.

I tell you what though, I'd fancy the chances of our 2003—4 team vs their 2007-08 team.

[killer-heels]

I tell you what though, I'd fancy the chances of our 2003—4 team vs their 2007-08 team.

Its close, but I think that United squad is better.

In a one off game though many sides could have beaten each other between era’s. But that United team won in England and Europe.

The CL will always be the biggest achievement.

[Skeeve]

Pretty much this.

Whilst I didn't vote for Arsenal  they did top the poll less than 18 months ago  on here for best team in PL history:

https://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=341237.msg16286199#msg16286199

Probably says more about people not wanting to vote for either mancs or chelsea than it did about arsenal to be honest.

[The North Bank]

I tell you what though, I'd fancy the chances of our 2003—4 team vs their 2007-08 team.

We’d smash any of these teams. 49 unbeaten without ever bothering with tactics. It doesn’t happen , unless you have a ridiculous group of players.
Should’ve never lost the 50th game too. If VAR  was around we’d have won so much more. Giving arsenal a kicking was lauded in the media as Britain striking back against those french invaders and the officials felt it was part of their patriotic duty. Things are far less xenophobic now.

[FlashGordon]

We’d smash any of these teams. 49 unbeaten without ever bothering with tactics. It doesn’t happen , unless you have a ridiculous group of players.
Should’ve never lost the 50th game too. If VAR  was around we’d have won so much more. Giving arsenal a kicking was lauded in the media as Britain striking back against those french invaders and the officials felt it was part of their patriotic duty. Things are far less xenophobic now.

Why didn't ye do it in Europe so?

[ScottishGoon]

Its close, but I think that United squad is better.

In a one off game though many sides could have beaten each other between era’s. But that United team won in England and Europe.

The CL will always be the biggest achievement.

That was the season we were ahead in the league all the way to February, only to self destruct after Eduardo's injury at Birmingham & Gallas full time strop. We drew 4 of the next 5 games, & we only finished 4 points behind them.

That team didn't have peak Lehman, or Cole, Campbell, Lauren, Vieira, Edu, Ljungberg, Pires, Henry or Bergkamp.

First choice XI was Almunia, Sagna, Toure, Gallas, Clichy, Flamini, Fabregas, Hleb, Rosicky, Adebayor, Eduardo / Van Persie. Guys like Bentdner & Eboue made nearly 40 appearances each.

[El Lobo]

Why didn't ye do it in Europe so?

Because there were better teams in Europe

[farawayred]

Why didn't ye do it in Europe so?

Because there were better teams in Europe

They were undone by Chelsea in the CL that season, weren't they? Nowt to do with Europe, or does it count as Europe?

[The North Bank]

Why didn't ye do it in Europe so?

It’s a European cup. Not a European league, cups aren’t always won by the best teams . By the time we got to the final, and nearly won it with 10 men, it was with a team that was an embarrassment compared to the “invincibles “.

[killer-heels]

Because there were better teams in Europe

They got beat by Ranieri’s Chelsea I think.

[ScottishGoon]

They were undone by Chelsea in the CL that season, weren't they? Nowt to do with Europe, or does it count as Europe?

Yeah, got hit with a Wayne Bridge sucker punch at Highbury when we were pushing for a winner. They then lost to Monaco in the semi over 2 legs, who then proceeded to lose to Jose's Porto in the final, & the rest is history. The biggest regret year bar the 2007 final year.

[ScottishGoon]

It’s a European cup. Not a European league, cups aren’t always won by the best teams . By the time we got to the final, and nearly won it with 10 men, it was with a team that was an embarrassment compared to the “invincibles “.

Was ironic eh? They said Wenger couldn't build a defence, & the year we got to the final we set a record for clean sheets with a defence mostly comprised of Eboue, Toure, Senderos & Flamini. 

[killer-heels]

It’s a European cup. Not a European league, cups aren’t always won by the best teams . By the time we got to the final, and nearly won it with 10 men, it was with a team that was an embarrassment compared to the “invincibles “.

Thats the point isnt it? Winning both in the same season.

If we win the league but dont win the CL then even we shouldnt get mentioned as the best side.

[killer-heels]

That was the season we were ahead in the league all the way to February, only to self destruct after Eduardo's injury at Birmingham & Gallas full time strop. We drew 4 of the next 5 games, & we only finished 4 points behind them.

That team didn't have peak Lehman, or Cole, Campbell, Lauren, Vieira, Edu, Ljungberg, Pires, Henry or Bergkamp.

First choice XI was Almunia, Sagna, Toure, Gallas, Clichy, Flamini, Fabregas, Hleb, Rosicky, Adebayor, Eduardo / Van Persie. Guys like Bentdner & Eboue made nearly 40 appearances each.

So you guys did pretty well. But they did better and had to do it in the CL.

The only thing you could nitpick is they didnt have the toughest run to the final.

[ScottishGoon]

So you guys did pretty well. But they did better and had to do it in the CL.

The only thing you could nitpick is they didnt have the toughest run to the final.

Yep, but my point was I'd have easily fancied our 2003/4 team to beat our 07/08 team, and that team bar a horror tackle on Eduardo should really have won the league. Therefore I'd have fancied our 03/04 team vs Utd's 08 team.

[killer-heels]

Yep, but my point was I'd have easily fancied our 2003/4 team to beat our 07/08 team, and that team bar a horror tackle on Eduardo should really have won the league. Therefore I'd have fancied dour 03/04 team vs Utd's 08 team.

There are a number of sides that could beat your 03-04 side as well. But thats not the point.

The point is what is the biggest achievement and honour that a team can do. If anything that is held by the 99 Utd side.