Topic: Liverpool's transfer policy

[john_mac]

I can't disagree with your policy which appears to be sign players who are succesful at whatever level not those that are unsuccessful.

Great with hindsight, not so easy to pull off though beforehand, but a policy I'm sure most managers would love to adhere to.

[John C]

John, one thing that he never wants to happen again is 31st August debacle, and he has been laying foundations since to ensure that he does not. I am not sure people realise how close we were to actually losing him at that point, and he would have left with his reputation completely in tact, probably enhanced. He was under no illusions about what happened.

I'm not aware quite how bad it got mate, only know of bits. I'm an FSG confidant to be honest mate, I believe in their ambition however foolish that may be. But having seen that debacle in the Summer their ambition, aspirations and intentions will be partly tested in January, of course there is only so much you can do in that window, I know that.

I understand they're bewilderingly looking at a £18m loss for Carroll which is business lesson they probably never saw coming, ever, but they must realise that to achieve and deliver their pledges they have to continue to invest, appropriately.

[john_mac]

I understand they're bewilderingly looking at a £180m loss for Carroll which is business lesson they probably never saw coming, ever, but they must realise that to achieve and deliver their pledges they have to continue to invest, appropriately.

£180 Million??? What's that?

[Zeb]

Gareth Roberts (robbohuyton) was chatting about this earlier. His timeline is well worth a read.
https://twitter.com/robbohuyton

Suggested that the Dempsey incident wasn't isolated, and that the process isn't as simple as it appears.

It hadn't even crossed my mind that they'd not have him chairing the meeting, let alone not even being sat at the table. Eep. Never rains, eh?

[astowell1]

The "too old" mentality is pure bollocks.  If they're good, I don't give a fuck how old a player is.

Great post mate.

[John C]

snip

Jesus mate, I'm not suggesting we "shop in the over 26 market" to any extent, I'm advocating management flexibility. And Suso & Sterling are not guaranteed to deliver anything yet, come back in a couple of years and remind me they've propelled us to 3rd place - seriously.

I love Suso btw, a far better footballer than Sterling.

[John C]

£180 Million??? What's that?

  I often put extra noughts on employees in work wages as well.

[reds88]

Barcelona is often quoted as a prime example of a youth oriented recruiting policy.  Often omitted are the big money spending to balance the team.  This I believe is the difference between Barca and the gunners.  Arsenal have been reluctant to make make the big signings aren't willing to pay to retain their star players.    This is the difference between winning trophies and a barren cupboard.  What Arsenal has is a great coach in Arsene who's having them still challenging but even he can't make up the difference.

Ajax has a great academy but basically grooming the youngsters for other clubs.  We could become like them.  The world has become a smaller place with tons of clubs aiming to have the same youth oriented recruiting policy.  What is there about Liverpool that will attract the young players?  Can we compete against Barca, Arsenal, Ajax....?

[john_mac]

  I often put extra noughts on employees in work wages as well.

Hence Local Authority finances!

[RedHopper]

I can't disagree with your policy which appears to be sign players who are succesful at whatever level not those that are unsuccessful.

Great with hindsight, not so easy to pull off though beforehand, but a policy I'm sure most managers would love to adhere to.

that is the exact opposite of w\hat i am suggesting. I am suggesting that a) we severely limit the number of older players that we sign, as our track record of signing them is pretty awful. I would hazard a guess that if you were to look at other clubs in a similar position to us, and were to examine their signings of players over 26, I suspect you would find that they were also rather unsucessful. Spurs hardly do it at all, and that is partialy how they substantially outperform their wage bill every season, while keeping their wage bill under control, and turning a profit.

b) that we focus on finding players between 23 and 25 who have shown quality and consistency, players that you can scout properly over a period, and make a good informed decision about. Rafa was able to act quickly as he knew the spanish market, but we need to be looking at players in the price range of cabaye etc. Solid players that can bring competitiveness and strength to our team, players who will soon be able to step up to become key players

and c) we go that extra mile to find talented younger players to develop into stars of the future.

We only have a limited budget to spend every year, older players command higher fees, and higher wages, have limited resale value, and if they are a failure are much more difficult to move on. they don't develop, they just get old, and signing them is madness. In agger, skrtel, johnson lucas and suarez are all in the over 26 age group. We're fine for players in this age group. Lets develop our own. sure we'll make mistakes, but they won't be as guaranteed as shopping in the over 26 age group has been, and they'll be easier to get out of, and our money will go further.

[RedHopper]

Jesus mate, I'm not suggesting we "shop in the over 26 market" to any extent, I'm advocating management flexibility. And Suso & Sterling are not guaranteed to deliver anything yet, come back in a couple of years and remind me they've propelled us to 3rd place - seriously.

I love Suso btw, a far better footballer than Sterling.

hmm, management flexibility in the over 26 market just leads to disaster. I'm pretty sure that every manager who signed someone on that list of woe thought that every signing they were making was good value, and going to provide them what they needed. They all had to make good cases to sign these players. It turned out that they were all wrong. The only way to avoid it is not to do it. No manager goes out to make deliberate mistakes. this will enable us to avoid it.

and I know that sterling and suso haven't done anything yet, but they were well scouted players, that we lashed out a decent amount on to other clubs, to add to what we already had in our academy. They already represent about as much youth success as we had in all the years of rafa's reign and the scattershot spending. We need to be more focussed with our spending and these two lads are the example. they're certainly better than jordy brower and vitor or paletta.

[stockdam]

Rafa was able to act quickly as he knew the spanish market, but we need to be looking at players in the price range of cabaye etc. Solid players that can bring competitiveness and strength to our team, players who will soon be able to step up to become key players

So why not bring in some decent scouts who know markets other then the local ones? It's far from easy as you don't know how a young player will react in the EPL but I do wonder if we really scout for good players or do we just go after the ones that everybody knows about?

Nobody has a crystal ball and it is much easier to buy the established players if you have the money. We need to find the talent that will grow and we need to find ways of identifying it...........that's where we will grow as a club with limited resources.

At the minute we are failing badly.

[markmywords]

I agree with RedHopper

Its not just us though young players is the trend throughout Europe so the competition in signing the top talents is huge almost leaving a opportunity in signing players 27+ for clubs like us who have no oil money but still aim for the top.

This is a problem across all age ranges
You can guarantee chelsea are not going to step aside and allow us to get 26 yr old falcao, So when the top players aged 26/27 come around we won't be in the running there either.  We will be looking for cast off's there as well,

The difference is; someone not considered world class at 21, is more likely to still become a class player, than someone passed over at 26.  Our best chance to have a class player, is to get in young and develop them.  It may be our only chance really.

[elpistolero7]

We should steal Udinese/Napoli/Porto scouts. They consistently find the kind of 'value' and young players FSG are obsessed with, but neither the manager or the scouting staff seem to know where to find them. All world class players are not found in England. Have a fookin look in South America once in a while. Its where teams like Porto buy the likes of Falcao and James Rodrigues half the price we pay for players like Downing.

[RedHopper]

We should steal Udinese/Napoli/Porto scouts. They consistently find the kind of 'value' and young players FSG are obsessed with, but neither the manager or the scouting staff seem to know where to find them. All world class players are not found in England. Have a fookin look in South America once in a while. Its where teams like Porto buy the likes of Falcao and James Rodrigues half the price we pay for players like Downing.

those clubs sign large numbers of players that would never get work permits in england, and in the case of udinese, farm them out to nursery clubs in other leagues, because they wouldn't get work permits or the equivalent in italy. (I think watford are part of udinese's network) I'm not sure that that is the model we should be following I'm afraid. i could see us losing our shirts trying to folow that method.

[PhaseOfPlay]

We should steal Udinese/Napoli/Porto scouts. They consistently find the kind of 'value' and young players FSG are obsessed with, but neither the manager or the scouting staff seem to know where to find them. All world class players are not found in England. Have a fookin look in South America once in a while. Its where teams like Porto buy the likes of Falcao and James Rodrigues half the price we pay for players like Downing.

We have new scouting staff now, though, and this will be their first window to work in, so we should wait and see what they come up with. Although if they hand DiNatale to BR on a plate on low-ish wages and he's fit to go, that would be nice

[murdell]

I don't care about value, I don't care about huge signings, I don't care if its on every news site beforehand, I don't care if its a ninja signing, all I want mobility, technique and balls to play for us. That's it.

[ocecynwa]

The "too old" theory annoys me. Say RVP says last summer says "I'm only going to sign for Liverpool". Based on our stupid owners/philosophy we'd tell him no thanks? Bloody ridiculous.

[khalilur]

The "too old" theory annoys me. Say RVP says last summer says "I'm only going to sign for Liverpool". Based on our stupid owners/philosophy we'd tell him no thanks? Bloody ridiculous.

I guess it's more a question of value. The club wanted to sign Dempsey, remember, & he's definitely no spring chicken. If they can get RVP at a price they think is right, I'm sure they'll go for it.

[arcticus]

I guess it's more a question of value. The club wanted to sign Dempsey, remember, & he's definitely no spring chicken. If they can get RVP at a price they think is right, I'm sure they'll go for it.

 

If he was available they should've gone all out to sign him

I swear they have no idea how to bid, I still remember the 10 million for Suarez

[swordfishtrombone]

John, one thing that he never wants to happen again is 31st August debacle, and he has been laying foundations since to ensure that he does not. I am not sure people realise how close we were to actually losing him at that point, and he would have left with his reputation completely in tact, probably enhanced. He was under no illusions about what happened.

Really? Bloody hell!

[East of Anfield]

Could the op be forwarded to john and tom?

[liverpooll]

Our current policy is primarily based on the lack of options. This lack of options implies we mostly move for the domestic players. There could be several reasons for that.

1. Limited scouting capability. We don't have much resources for scouting other than England.
2. Those non-domestic players don't want to come to Liverpool. Without Champions League, we are no longer a attractive option for many.
3. Our management team rates domestic players better as they believe they can settle better and tried and tested in PL.
4. We want a English core both in terms of homegrown criteria + adaptability.

Combination of the above factors. Whatever it is, our historical record does not support our recent transfer policy. Changes are needed.

[SalifSaysShutIt]

I guess it's more a question of value. The club wanted to sign Dempsey, remember, & he's definitely no spring chicken. If they can get RVP at a price they think is right, I'm sure they'll go for it.

What price wouldn't have been right? With Van Persie's goals this season we would be top of the league or very close. On the other hand, RVP is far superior to Dempsey, in a totally different class. I would hope that if we could attract an attacking player of his quality for less than 30 mill that we would take it...

[juan1001]

If he was available they should've gone all out to sign him

I swear they have no idea how to bid, I still remember the 10 million for Suarez

Let's face it, the only reason we got Suarez is that Ajax were desperate to get rid of because of the biting incident, and on one was wanting to touch Suarez because of his reputation.

[arcticus]

Let's face it, the only reason we got Suarez is that Ajax were desperate to get rid of because of the biting incident, and on one was wanting to touch Suarez because of his reputation.

Still, AJAX said they wanted 25 million and what does Commolli do? Go in with fucking 10 million

[Fluke]

and I know that sterling and suso haven't done anything yet, but they were well scouted players, that we lashed out a decent amount on to other clubs, to add to what we already had in our academy. They already represent about as much youth success as we had in all the years of rafa's reign and the scattershot spending. We need to be more focussed with our spending and these two lads are the example. they're certainly better than jordy brower and vitor or paletta.

They ARE the fruits of rafas reign. Both signed by rafa and his academy.

[Agent99]

In terms of the youth policy though, BR said in his meeting this week with RAWK etc that he'll buy anyone at any age if its the right deal.

He also said this though:

BR - It has to be the best player that is available, irrespective of the age. Now we want to get top young players in, of course, and nurture and develop them, and they bring the hunger, but there’s no doubt you need that experience as well and that’s something I will always put forward but then of course the decision is out of my hands really.

[John C]

Yeah, noted mate, as I said above its cause for concern.

[royhendo]

Worth quoting this again here.

Here we go - maybe we have more clarity than we thought.

19 months after the takeover, they hired Brendan Rodgers, another risky appointment but an imaginative and coherent one. Before that, they appointed a global executive search firm to find us a new CEO but ended up promoting the under-educated Ian Ayre to Managing Director. The DoF model was bigged up last Spring and binned a few months later at the request not just of Rodgers but other managerial candidates. Rodgers also refused to work with a technical director, leading to the club losing Pep Segura.

In place, though, we will have a promising new technical committee which is expected to finally deliver the FSG vision. Rodgers will chair the group, which consists of Michael Edwards, Head of Analytics (a man who had a key role in Spurs’ successful transfer policy and is highly valued by FSG); the Head of Development (academy); the Head of the Medical Department; a negotiator of transfers/contracts (still to be appointed); and Dave Fallows as Head of Scouting and Recruitment. Fallows joins in October from Manchester City - via his garden - bringing with him Barry Hunter, who covered Italy and Russia for the blues. Another of the new recruits specialises in Portuguese and South American football. All the recruits are well-versed in the use of statistics, analytics and technology. The challenge set them by FSG - that excites them - is to get Liverpool to the pinnacle of English and European football by outsmarting the opposition rather than outspending them. The idea is the expected one: to find youthful value in the market, to buy Suarez at the age of 20 from Groningen rather than four years later from Ajax. Rodger’s “death by football” is the blueprint for the whole club (and dovetails pretty neatly with the born-in-Spain philosophy in our nurseries.) Going forward, Rodgers is expected to pick his preferences from a list provided to him by the four new scouts. FSG have also told the new scouting team they will top up the squad with occasional ‘marquee’ signings (providing they still provide value to the club) as a fillip to the brand, fans and team.

 Rodgers agreed to all this before joining. FSG believed their man would be at ease working via consensus although there were suggestions in early August that Rodgers was resistant to the scouts’ suggestions. Then, on August 31, our hierarchy provided a masterclass in ruining an otherwise excellent transfer window. Rodgers (I am told) surprised everyone by dismissing all candidates suggested to him for our vacant front line. FSG surprised him by stubbornly refusing to wreck their blueprint for the 29-year-old Dempsey. Miscommunication or power play? With Rodgers’ comments about the ‘honesty’ of the owners at his recent press conference, we hear the slurp of a hearty kiss and make-up. But has the structural fault line been repaired?

[RedHopper]

that's very interesting, does anyone know who the suggested players that rodgers supposedly turned down were?

[graaf_x]

that's very interesting, does anyone know who the suggested players that rodgers supposedly turned down were?

Sturridge for £15m I have read.

[khalilur]

What price wouldn't have been right? With Van Persie's goals this season we would be top of the league or very close. On the other hand, RVP is far superior to Dempsey, in a totally different class. I would hope that if we could attract an attacking player of his quality for less than 30 mill that we would take it...

A lot of people are still unsure about RVP despite his prolific season, quoting his age and his injury problems. It's also worth noting that last year was his most prolific season despite being at Arsenal from 2004. Previous season it was 18 league goals and before that it was a measly 9 league goals.

Considering that we have been stung with our foray into the transfer market, I thought it was understandable that the club would be reticent.

If we had invested 30 mil & RVP fails to perform, how many fans would be understanding and say, oh well, try again next time?

We'd end up with an old dud without any resale value on high wages. Ring a bell, anyone?

[John C]

Its fascinating Roy, although that may be an adjective others wouldn't use.

[DTRed]

If the money were there, I think they would. Could have cashed in on Suarez and gone hunting the next big thing. Instead new contact. Could have cashed in on Agger too. I genuinely do believe that for the right players they will push the boat out. Baseball's baseball, but they've not been shy about the big deals in that sport. I think that same kind of attitude will continue here providing they're convinced it's value. Problem is that they can tell value in baseball from their own perspective, whereas [insert something about whole new ballgame here].

They've got their wise men in place now. They've got to back the decisions which come out.

I agree completely that the club has been proactive in getting the big players to extend their contracts and you are right that FSG have not been shy with giving big contracts out and signing big players in baseball.  We do have to put the baseball performance of the Red Sox and FSG in perspective though.  In the MBL the teams, regardless of their finish in 2012, are immediately in the same competitions again in 2013.  We are in a different situation where our final position not only dictates our level of European competition (if at all), but also determines who we can attract regardless of money.  In the US if you pay then they come and they also have the draft dishing out all of the young university and college talent.

I agree we should welcome Sturridge and Ince but the OP is bang on about our policy.  I still reserve my judgement on the Werner/Ayre/FSG approach until the end of January.  They sacked Kenny, left us without a second striker for half a season and have gone very quiet in the media since the summer (although the club had enough press last year).   Let's see what January brings.


Still gonna beat QPR 

[john_mac]

that is the exact opposite of w\hat i am suggesting. I am suggesting that a) we severely limit the number of older players that we sign, as our track record of signing them is pretty awful. I would hazard a guess that if you were to look at other clubs in a similar position to us, and were to examine their signings of players over 26, I suspect you would find that they were also rather unsucessful. Spurs hardly do it at all, and that is partialy how they substantially outperform their wage bill every season, while keeping their wage bill under control, and turning a profit.

b) that we focus on finding players between 23 and 25 who have shown quality and consistency, players that you can scout properly over a period, and make a good informed decision about. Rafa was able to act quickly as he knew the spanish market, but we need to be looking at players in the price range of cabaye etc. Solid players that can bring competitiveness and strength to our team, players who will soon be able to step up to become key players

and c) we go that extra mile to find talented younger players to develop into stars of the future.

We only have a limited budget to spend every year, older players command higher fees, and higher wages, have limited resale value, and if they are a failure are much more difficult to move on. they don't develop, they just get old, and signing them is madness. In agger, skrtel, johnson lucas and suarez are all in the over 26 age group. We're fine for players in this age group. Lets develop our own. sure we'll make mistakes, but they won't be as guaranteed as shopping in the over 26 age group has been, and they'll be easier to get out of, and our money will go further.

Honestly mate you need to slow down, write less and read more

[robgomm]

We want a team of players not far off or at their peak, some that we buy in, some we produce. The idea of signing Suarez at 20 is great if you know what he'll turn into. Of course, it's not that easy. So we need to counter balance our efforts on signings like that with some established players who can bring immediate results and whose quality is known. A strong youth set up makes the job easier and reduces the demand on the scouting network.

We appear to have a very good youth set up with very good talent developing well. We have not been as successful at signing more established (ready first teamers) recently, the goal this window is to improve that.

I don't think ruling out certain age groups is useful, sometimes a 30+ player can boost the mood and make a great impact. Ideally the ratio would be in favour of younger signings.

[benitezthered]

Key word for me is value.

More often than not young player represent better value. Not always though.

[robgomm]

I do think signing players at 27-29 for huge money is probably out of our domain for years. That's PSG et al.

[Draex]

Worth quoting this again here.

Here we go - maybe we have more clarity than we thought.

Have we recruited everyone?

Head of Developement - Borrell?
Head of Scouting/Recruitment - Fallows?
Head of Analytics - Edwards?
Head of Medical - ??
Head of Negociation - ??