Topic: VAR! Video Assistant Referee & Shite Referees in General

[Knight]

I didn't say you had an agenda, that was someone else.

I would much, much rather it not be a discussion. That it is, isn't because people are desperate to talk about corrupt refs. Its because we're consistently getting screwed over, the stats are there, its cost us trophies and its gone far beyond the 'its just refs are shit' argument.

Before you leave us to it, why don't you address the points? You're talking about how we should fully focus instead on Abu Dhabi and Saudi Arabia using their power and finance to shut down people wanting to investigate them, but at no point do you think this could even possibly seep into doing the same with referees, despite some of the main antagonists (or protagonists depending on which side of the fence you sit) literally having been employed by these very people.

Man City have cheated systematically for over a decade, in a lovely variety of ways. But genuinely, not for a second, do you think that they could possibly influence Michael Oliver. A man they have invited over to referee as a guest in the league they own. The only person to have done so this season. They've gone so deep in creating sponsorship deals, paying managers off the books to be 'brand ambassadors', literally buying football clubs over the globe to essentially launder footballers....but you honestly dont think for a second that there's a possibility they could look at referees and think thats another area they could influence using their wealth and power....?

Its not lunatic conspiracy theories. Its, at best, very very obvious conflicts of interest which are being completely ignored for some reason.

Hilarious to ask someone who with great patience has been engaging a large group of posters over weeks on this topic to  'address the points'. In reality this is classic conspiracy theory thinking and tinhat theories are, by their nature, unfalsifiable. 

[Egyptian36]

What is the deal with Wenger and his proposals ? he should retire already

[jillcwhomever]

First I must have an "agenda" and now I "just want to shut down conversation". When you question people's motives instead of addressing their arguments it says quite a lot. Generally, in life, I mean. Is it that wounding to find someone who disagrees with you?

I am obviously not trying to "shut down question". I'm asking questions for a start. That's an odd way to "shut down conversation"! And what an impossible thing to do anyway. RAWK is teeming with people who want to talk about corrupt refs. You must have noticed. You're an eager part of the endless queue. You never stop!

I'll leave you to it though. Someone earlier hit the nail on thread. Most Liverpool supporters don't think there is corruption. It's a pity that RAWK serves as a magnet for conspiracy theories. But social media is prone to that, as we all know. And anyone who doesn't join in "must" have an agenda. It's mad.

"With all due respect".

Yorkie how do you feel about Premier League referees working in the likes of Abu Dhabi and Saudi? I'm like you in so much as I don't think it's just about Liverpool, other clubs have suffered as well. I also agree a lot with what Hackett says who thinks they aren't cheating but protecting referees who get it wrong.

[Mister Flip Flop]

The Sky bullshit has been organised to explain, sorry, EXCUSE any on field decision that is dodgy. That's all it is. If it wasn't, Gobshite Owen would challenge it, he doesn't, he just goes along with whatever Webb says limply.

Amazed that they think that's not a pen. MacAllister CLEARLY won the ball first, gets kicked in the chest. He's turning because he's ABOUT to get kicked in the chest!

Get Webb on TV, let him explain it away, gains traction everywhere, all sorted. It's a corrupt game. Almost every league has had some form of corruption, and you mean to tell me the Premier League never has?

There's too many conflicts of interests and biases, and VAR ironically has only highlighted it a LOT more than ever before. I'd be stunned to NOT find out that City have paid refs, paid broadcasters.

Abu Dhabi's fingerprints are all over sky media now. They already have started a shilling campaign on their behalf that the current FFP rules aren't fit for purpose and it's better to rip it up and start again "we'll do better next time mister i promise", "lessons have been learned" etc... is the agenda that is going to be pushed now.

It would be interesting to see where the finance for Sky having the rights to premiership games is coming from personally i believe they are getting it from some Abu Dhabi shell company no way they have enough subscriptions to pay that with the rise of streaming and IPTV services nobody under 50 years of age pays to watch football anymore with Sky.

[Redley]

See, now THATS a conspiracy theory!

[Andy82lfc]

Technically he's referred in the UAE league right? Which includes Abu Dhabi clubs but is across the UAE. What's the relationship between the UAE league and Abu Dhabi, is it accurate to say Abu Dhabi invited Michael Oliver over?

From the Athletic as to bring a more objective view:

"The optics? Not great. Everyone knows that Sheikh Mansour, vice-president and deputy prime minister of the UAE, owns Manchester City. Less well known is that the UAE Football Association has held talks with City Football Group chief executive Ferran Soriano about a “framework of joint cooperation” and that the UAE Pro League’s main sponsor is the Abu Dhabi National Oil Company (ADNOC), whose board members include City chairman Khaldoon Al-Mubarak.

In that context, allowing a group of PGMOL officials to fly to the UAE last week to take charge of a match between Sharjah and Al-Ain — Oliver as referee, Stuart Burt and Cook as assistants, England as VAR — looks inadvisable in the extreme. Having referees on the payroll of another league, with close links to the ownership of Premier League clubs, inevitably brings an extra level of scrutiny that match officials really could do without."

A monkey could figure that one out to be dirty or at the very least inexplicably wrong. The bigger question is why on earth would PGMOL allow that? And inevitably they are not fit for purpose if they think that is acceptable.

[owens_2k]

There is no point in having Michael Owen present that show. There would be no difference if it was just Webb commenting on the incidents. He should be put on the spot, not have answers in waiting from pre-agreed questions.

Just on another incident, I'm not sure if my memory from the program is incorrect but in the Mcginn sending off incident, wasnt it the VAR team who advised a red card instantly and then the ref gave it? And then the VAR confirmed the red?

Seemed as if the ref wasnt going to give a red until that outside influence.

[Mister Flip Flop]

Keith Hackett has had a real go at Webb. He calls it a penalty everyday of the week and Webb should stop defending the indefensible!

It's just incredible Webb was allowed tell a blatant lie about Doku touching the ball first and it went completely unchallenged. It feels like living in the twilight zone. Just come out and admit it was another massive mistake. Nobody challenges him on why it happens to Liverpool on such a frequent basis compared to other teams either.

[Andy82lfc]

There is no point in having Michael Owen present that show. There would be no difference if it was just Webb commenting on the incidents. He should be put on the spot, not have answers in waiting from pre-agreed questions.

I think it's almost a certainty that Webb has agreed to it only if no questions are pressed or anything but pre-disclosed questions are asked. 

Owen, although not exactly Jeremy Paxman, would at least by now have put a few glaringly obvious pokes at Webb's ridiculous and flawed logic by now.

[Redley]

From the Athletic as to bring a more objective view:

"The optics? Not great. Everyone knows that Sheikh Mansour, vice-president and deputy prime minister of the UAE, owns Manchester City. Less well known is that the UAE Football Association has held talks with City Football Group chief executive Ferran Soriano about a “framework of joint cooperation” and that the UAE Pro League’s main sponsor is the Abu Dhabi National Oil Company (ADNOC), whose board members include City chairman Khaldoon Al-Mubarak.

In that context, allowing a group of PGMOL officials to fly to the UAE last week to take charge of a match between Sharjah and Al-Ain — Oliver as referee, Stuart Burt and Cook as assistants, England as VAR — looks inadvisable in the extreme. Having referees on the payroll of another league, with close links to the ownership of Premier League clubs, inevitably brings an extra level of scrutiny that match officials really could do without."

A monkey could figure that one out to be dirty or at the very least inexplicably wrong. The bigger question is why on earth would PGMOL allow that? And inevitably they are not fit for purpose if they think that is acceptable.

[Mister Flip Flop]

I think it's almost a certainty that Webb has agreed to it only if no questions are pressed or anything but pre-disclosed questions are asked. 

Owen, although not exactly Jeremy Paxman, would at least by now have put a few glaringly obvious pokes at Webb's ridiculous and flawed logic by now.

Then it's completely pointless and should be scrapped.

[Tobelius]

It's just incredible Webb was allowed tell a blatant lie about Doku touching the ball first and it went completely unchallenged. It feels like living in the twilight zone. Just come out and admit it was another massive mistake. Nobody challenges him on why it happens to Liverpool on such a frequent basis compared to other teams either.

We've already got our non-apology of an apology for the season,they'd rather lie than do another imo.

Of course at the same time there's no conflict of interest in that the PGMOL refs referee games in the UAE,you'd propably get a frothing at the mouth attack for suggesting anything's afoul there.

[StigenKeegan]

If you have read the previous thread you'll know that I did not ignore Tomkins statistics. I tried to offer a different explanation for the 'outliers', in particular the one on Mo Salah. But you seem to have ignored that.

What's your agenda?

I have read it. Tomkins show that Liverpool are outliers on every single metric measured. To me these "different explanations" just don't hold water. What Tomkins is doing is basically just counting. Counting different instances that occur in games over a long period of time. Then he presents the sums of what he's counted. You can of course theoreticize different explanations for what the numbers show, but what it boils down to is that all metrics show us as being outliers. If you will, the numbers single us out and the people making those numbers are the PMGOL. The research is statistically significant, so it is not random variation. What you've been doing is just making contrary statements based on nothing but vague assumptions. You're basically arguing against research and facts.

My "agenda" if I have any, is that if we are to discuss the whole PMGOL/PL/SKY mess it should be from the starting point of established facts. After all, what is the point of discussing how to solve a problem if we can't agree that there is a problem?
I have used the word corruption previously, and I think that corruption can take many shapes and forms. It may also be that what we see is "just" the result of some form of bias within an organization unfit for purpose.
To me,  as I've stated before, the main indicator of the presence of corruption in this system is that the system in itself is set up for corruption. By that I mean that, for instance, the PMGOL is essentially a closed system, run by a very small number of people, with no real oversight into their inner workings. Anything from the criteria for selecting specific refs for specific matches, the selection of refs into the group, the guidelines for taking work outside PMGOL etc are being controlled by Webb and his chums. By being a closed system with all power in the hands of very few people, in the same way as FIFA and UEFA, it is ripe for manipulation by bad actors from the outside. With the money and prestige involved in football it is absurd to think that outside forces won't try to manipulate it.
My question would be: If you have a system that is very vulnerable to corruption and you know it, why wouldn't you change it to be more transparent and more easily checked? Why would you leave your door open to corruption?
So instead of looking for more proof of bias or corruption to prove that it is happening we should, with the knowledge of the facts laid out before us and the knowledge that this system is ripe for corruption, start challenging the system to bring about changes that would make it much more difficult for undue influence on our league to occur. In a transparent and uncorruptable system we would, no doubt, still be fucked over occasionally and feel, like all supporters in this tribalised sport feel, that "they are out to get us". But at least then, the incompetence of the match officials would produce random outcomes and not the obviously not random continuously fucking over of Liverpool we're now witnessing.

[stoa]

Then it's completely pointless and should be scrapped.

It's not completely pointless. At least, you get to hear the actual audio from the matches and can make judgments based on that. Problem is, nobody in the media seems to do that, they just focus on what Webb is saying, when the actual audio as it happens tells quite a story.

[lobsterboy]

For those who believe the referees to be corrupt rather than just crap, I have a question.

Why do you keep watching?

I think a part of the answer might be that you love Liverpool so much. I can understand that to a point. But if you truly believe that the game is corrupt or systematically biased against the team you love then continuing to watch seems masochistic (beyond even the normal levels of masochism that are required to follow a footy team.  )

I barely watch at all now. I won't watch any match featuring the sportswashers even if they are playing us. Oil despots, pgmol and SKY have killed the game.

[farawayred]

It's very clear that most poster here don't understand the rules. So, for those:
1. PGMOL is always right.
2. If you suspect that PGMOL is not right in any particular case, refer to Rule #1.

What is it to argue?

[Andy @ Allerton!]

It's very clear that most poster here don't understand the rules. So, for those:
1. PGMOL is always right.
2. If you suspect that PGMOL is not right in any particular case, refer to Rule #1.

What is it to argue?

Rule 3.c.

If PGMOL make 15 mistakes in a row and all of them are against LFC and get more bizarre the longer the season goes on, then this is fine and is just a co-incidence.

Rule 4.f

Any decision which PGMOL gets 'wrong' against LFC will never result in the same action taken on subsequent instances.

[carling]

I agree with that. That's what should make us angry (or disillusioned). The refs are just shite. They're not good enough to do the job. They are also collegiate and cover for each other's mistakes (as we are seeing this week). But it's mistaken to believe that they single Liverpool out and probably a waste of effort and resources to try and close down PGMOL if the evidence for corruption is non-existent. 

Do you think Liverpool as a football club or even as a city is singled out in any negative way by the rest of the country?  Are the usual chants that we heard in Manchester at the weekend and at Nottingham a few weeks back any indication that people might treat Liverpool differently?

You seem to deny any anti-Liverpool bias could have crept into anyone associated with PGMOL, just wondered how much more you deny when it comes to Liverpool.  Maybe you think it's all in good humour.

[thejbs]

Looking at it again, it was naive from Macca. He should've gone in with his head, taken a brain injury for the team and won us a penalty. Absolute cowardice to try and turn his body away.

[vblfc]

This bullshit from Webb needs calling out now by the club. It’s just projected lies to cover up their incompetence and I think needs the club to find a way to say as much. We need to stand up for ourselves.
It would never have happened - but imagine this was against Fergie's United. No way they would sit on it.
Anyway - Maybe better a calm statement rather than a “rant”.

[Skeeve]

I find this constant debate about corruption so tiresome. It is not something the majority of fans believe in my view, only speculate on.

The possibility that bias is at play is much more likely and widely believed, it is crystal clear to most, including our manager Jurgen Klopp to remind you, that some referees do have an issue with our club and do single Liverpool football club out.

Most here would simply like the club to point out these glaring errors more, as they did after the Diaz VAR, to then put more pressure on PGMOL or the PL to appoint independent VAR systems or use the tiniest bit of common sense and not appoint referees from rival areas.

If it is that the refs are just shite and not fit for purpose in a business that blatantly wrong decisions can cost tens of millions, then even more reason to push resources to take apart PGMOL.

Nobody is forcing you to go into a topic that is obviously going to include such a debate though. As far as what the majority of fans believe, they would tend to believe that anyone but us winning things is a good thing, so what the majority believe is not always an accurate measurement. 

If they were simply shite then that old saying of things evening out over the season would statistically have some basis in reality, but that simply isn't happening. If officials wanted to avoid even the chances of accusations of bias or corruption then they could refuse to officiate matches involving teams from their home city or area (even if they profess to support another team) and they could also refuse to accept all-expenses paid trips to countries that own football teams in the league where they are supposedly employed to referee matches without bias.

[Legs]

This bullshit from Webb needs calling out now by the club. It’s just projected lies to cover up their incompetence and I think needs the club to find a way to say as much. We need to stand up for ourselves.
It would never have happened - but imagine this was against Fergie's United. No way they would sit on it.
Anyway - Maybe better a calm statement rather than a “rant”.

Rafa did a calm response to em years ago and that ended up a "rant" according to all the c**ts in the media.

[JRed]

Rafa did a calm response to em years ago and that ended up a "rant" according to all the c**ts in the media.

FACT!

[Legs]

FACT!

Correct !

Another fact is Doku got the ball and who knew you can now challenge with yer studs in players chests 1920s style 😂

[Andy82lfc]

Nobody is forcing you to go into a topic that is obviously going to include such a debate though. As far as what the majority of fans believe, they would tend to believe that anyone but us winning things is a good thing, so what the majority believe is not always an accurate measurement. 

If they were simply shite then that old saying of things evening out over the season would statistically have some basis in reality, but that simply isn't happening. If officials wanted to avoid even the chances of accusations of bias or corruption then they could refuse to officiate matches involving teams from their home city or area (even if they profess to support another team) and they could also refuse to accept all-expenses paid trips to countries that own football teams in the league where they are supposedly employed to referee matches without bias.

I think if you read my other posts you’ll see I agree with you.

The reason I mentioned I am tired of the corruption shouts is mainly because people on the other side of the debate tend to use that line in with everything along with ‘conspiracies’ or ‘tin foil hat brigade’ so they can tar everyone with the same shit stick and muddy the waters.

I think people believing absolutely no corruption is a possibility are naive, but at the absolute least for me there is no way we can say no bias exists (against other clubs also) and all of these bad decisions are a massive cosmic coincidence.

[rob1966]

Rafa did a calm response to em years ago and that ended up a "rant" according to all the c**ts in the media.

Then Webb made sure utd got back into a game at home v Spurs where they were getting outplayed and were 2 down in when the dodgy decisions started, gave them a dodgy penalty to start the comeback

[ShrewKop]

Their explanation - and it's not the first time they've done it - is the equivalent of them trying to convince us that this pen is blue.

It's red, but because the ref messed up and decided it was blue, his boss is now saying it's blue-ish. "There's a bit of a blue hue in the pen and therefore it's not certainly red".

They all know it's red, they don't give a fuck, it's whatever fits their agenda is what they are going to say.

[RyanBabel19]

'They both come in high' might be the most insane take i've seen in all my years watching football

[Mister Flip Flop]

'They both come in high' might be the most insane take i've seen in all my years watching football

Nothing surprises me anymore in this league

The one good thing about VAR is it has exposed the massive bias there is within PGMOL towards our club.

[RyanBabel19]

Nothing surprises me anymore in this league

The one good thing about VAR is it has exposed the massive bias there is within PGMOL towards our club.

For us and us alone though so it will fall entirely on deaf ears and never be even close to acknowledged

[Legs]

Nothing surprises me anymore in this league

The one good thing about VAR is it has exposed the massive bias there is within PGMOL towards our club.

Come on mate lets not be biased we can both see Macca went in with his chest on Doku boot ....typical Argie always cheating init !

[vblfc]

Rafa did a calm response to em years ago and that ended up a "rant" according to all the c**ts in the media.

Yep. That’s why I think it shouldn’t be that format. Rather a clear and thought out statement from the club through press channels.

[Legs]

Yep. That’s why I think it shouldn’t be that format. Rather a clear and thought out statement from the club through press channels.

I get you but its not going to happen is it as the counter arguement will be all teams get bad ones.

Only got to listen to Dermot Gsllagher and his weekly BS "It was his OPINION"

VAR should be clear cut not an opinion.

Its not really an opinion when guy on VAR just tells his junior colleague no shut up lets move on check complete (words to that effect)

[redtel]

The end to the Man C game left fans puzzled and angry as it looked a poor decision given there were 3 officials in the var room looking at replays in slow motion if necessary.

After nine days Webb goes on Sky tv and literally doubles down that the decision was correct while the audio reveals that they aren’t describing what we all can see on repeat. Is he taking us all to be that gullible?

It could only happen if PGMOL have no governance which is why their referees can take well rewarded jobs in the Middle East without any concern about how this looks or be worried about conflicts of interest. Most professionals have tight controls over them over them so they are not accused of favouring an individual or company.

It’s why they decided to put their own members in the var room to look at their own members work. They can do what they like, including appointing new referees to work in the PL. It may explain why there are so many of them from the Manchester area and North of England. If we want var to work better it has to be done by persons independent of PGMOL.

Will this happen? No chance at the moment. It’s a great club to be in with huge perks if you are good enough to get jobs reffing abroad. Things will carry on as they are as none of the three tv channels (SKY,TNT, BBC) that have weekly football on them aren’t challenging Webb and never have. There’s a clip in here of a USA channel ridiculing Webb for his narrative but nothing in the U.K.

The choice is stark. Put up with PGMOL or stop watching it would seem.

[vblfc]

I get you but its not going to happen is it as the counter arguement will be all teams get bad ones.

Only got to listen to Dermot Gsllagher and his weekly BS "It was his OPINION"

VAR should be clear cut not an opinion.

Its not really an opinion when guy on VAR just tells his junior colleague no shut up lets move on check complete (words to that effect)

If all teams get bad ones that’s even more reason for the club to officially ask for the governance of refereeing to be urgently reviewed. If it was only us, the case would be much weaker.

[wenlock]

For those who believe the referees to be corrupt rather than just crap, I have a question.

Why do you keep watching?

I think a part of the answer might be that you love Liverpool so much. I can understand that to a point. But if you truly believe that the game is corrupt or systematically biased against the team you love then continuing to watch seems masochistic (beyond even the normal levels of masochism that are required to follow a footy team.  )

I will have a crack at that.

I started following the club probably later then quite a few at around aged 10 or 11. That was due to no one else being in to footy in my family and not much interest from my friends at the time, I am now in my 60's.

We had no sky tv back then and I (like many others I expect) hunted for any radio covering our games in europe and such, even if foreign, after all we still got the gist from the names being called and excitement from the comms to work out what was happening for ourselves.

There was no internet so my paper round after games took a while longer as I read through the various newpapers, and sportsmail on a saturday.

Merchandise was much harder to find with living across the country in east yorkshire but I snagged a mug and even a replica kit when they were not really a thing back then. One year we had a week away in southport and I went to the shop Steve Heighway had at the time and came away with a mug and a pendant.

I managed to get to Anfield a couple of times when adult and even snook in to the 1989 fa cup final.

Sky and the premier league started the ruination of football IMO shortly after that. Every game started to be talked up and advertised as a battle when in the past we talked about them as beautiful games and we were encouraged to accept thuggery instead of skills.

Corruption is a word that divides it seems. I have no idea if money changes hands or not but that doesn't matter to me as it doesn't define if corruption is taking place imo. I go more for the dictionary definition of the word which doesn't need money changing hands, are matches and results being affected? If you answer yes then that is corruption, something is actively being manipulated to alter a result so it speaks for itself.

It doesn't take many people to corrupt something, in this case as few as one person can affect a season or target a club. Bias is just a cop out for people not wanting to use the corruption word, apply bias is corrupting as you are apply it.

Why do I carry on watching? Well love and time invested, fond memories and such. When I snook into wembley it was to take my terminal disabled now departed brother in law, as we didnt have enough tickets for him and 2 carers and the touts were charging shit loads.

Forwarding to now, it has become so disheartening, bad for blood pressure and mental health that I have slimmed it down to mostly just night matches, as most of those are european and less prone to pgmol bollocks.

To me it has become little more then a farce and scam at this stage with added layers of poo to help control results like VAR which is about as useful as a holed condom. I am registered blind so I get extra frustration when I am asking my son why something I appear to have seen was wrong. To then have him and the tv show me that I was actually seeing it correctly and the able sighted people in charge with var to help them are missing or ignoring these things is mind warping.

[Tonyh8su]

We, as a club, should be doing something about this.

[Golyo]

For those who believe the referees to be corrupt rather than just crap, I have a question.

Why do you keep watching?

I think a part of the answer might be that you love Liverpool so much. I can understand that to a point. But if you truly believe that the game is corrupt or systematically biased against the team you love then continuing to watch seems masochistic (beyond even the normal levels of masochism that are required to follow a footy team.  )

I studied economics and know about the sunk cost fallacy, but it's mostly that. I put a lot of love and time into following this club from afar. I hoped VAR would help clear up some of the biased decisions against Liverpool, but instead, it just multiplied it. Then there is City and the 115 charges. A few years ago I watched every match live. Nowadays I watch one or two Liverpool matches per month. Jürgen goes and I will watch even less. The same can be seen in my post history. I am getting less and less interested.

[Eeyore]

For those who believe the referees to be corrupt rather than just crap, I have a question.

Why do you keep watching?

I think a part of the answer might be that you love Liverpool so much. I can understand that to a point. But if you truly believe that the game is corrupt or systematically biased against the team you love then continuing to watch seems masochistic (beyond even the normal levels of masochism that are required to follow a footy team.  )

If someone comes from a disadvantaged background and life isn't fair would you advocate they give up. Or would you advise them to fight back against injustice and push for things to get better?

Even if they get people telling them that they are just imagining things. That it isn't bias or corruption just a jolly lot of incompetence.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

If someone comes from a disadvantaged background and life isn't fair would you advocate they give up. Or would you advise them to fight back against injustice and push for things to get better?

Even if they get people telling them that they are just imagining things. That it isn't bias or corruption just a jolly lot of incompetence.

LFC are 'Galaxy Quest' - Never give up! Never Surrender!