Topic: Round Table Wigan 0-0 Liverpool

[Hinesy]

We end the year nearly like we began it, possession, occasional artistry and more chances than Calum Best in a cheap bar...
Adam's penalty...why not Dirk? One of the few things he does really well is fuck it hard into the goal but wasn't to be. Luis played well at times but for me faded in the 2nd half and a little petulance appeared but Carroll again didn't have time to establish himself. Shelvey, less effective today. Defence getting better all the time though and Maxi disappeared in the 2nd half but was good at times.

Thoughts? Usual, shall we just post previous comments or was there any differences?

[SMD]

I think your post sums it up - barely mentioned our midfield, particularly the new trio of Henderson, Adam and Downing. Again, I've said I have no problem with them bedding in but it just looks like they struggle with the basics and when all of them decide to hide then it makes it much more difficult for us to perform.

Enrique came in and settled in straight away. Is that because of his own ability or is the defence better drilled than the midfield?

We look awful up front and I hope this performance puts to bed the myth that we're unlucky. We were shite, plain and simple and if we can't coach the players we have...well, why are we here?

Right now, we're 6th. 2 points behind Arsenal and Chelsea, both of whom had bad spells but have recovered. What are we waiting for? We don't take advantage of our opponents' slip ups or our rivals. A penalty was a gift but we can't even take that.

December 21st. 10 days and 2 hours, the transfer window will open. Can we afford to stick with what we have or is it time to cut our losses?

[Aristotle]

We have a massively improved squad but are still missing match winners. We're practically running the opposite of the 08/09 season. We now have the squad to bounce back from everything, but instead lacking that extra wow factor to beat every team.
I mentioned it during the game that Adam and Henderson showed how they need a holding midfielder and at times were doing the same thing, leaving massive gaps behind them. I've said it on a few occasions before. I still feel that Downing is the type of player to get your from 1-0 to 2-0 but he won't win you games in injury time. He's a good player, professional and will try his best but he's still very, for the lack of a better term, English. He's on the left, he tries to beat player and cross. On the right, he cuts back and tries the shot or far post pass. He's predictable and he needs a target, not a target man, just a target.
Suarez has a tendancy to drop deep, draw defenders and then leave them in the dust as he bypasses them. He's a plethora of wonderful things, but on the recieving end of a cross inside the 6 yard box isn't his style. Kuyt was obviously under instructions to hold the line and press and it was evident that when Downing hit in a great cross, he was out on the right instead of his "wide forward" position under Rafa.

If we were gonna play like that, we should've had two forwards since Downing is a get the ball in teh box player, and the only one we had to recieve it was far out wide. Bellamy being benched is no doubt down to his knees not handling it, but I still maintain it was the wrong set up. IF we can't play a 5 man midfield to accomodate Suarez, we have to play Kuyt or Carroll along side him and imo that's why we fell short.


Biggest positive from the game is still the clean sheet. Although we may have had a lucky bounce or three, we kept yet another clean sheet and that's 3 on the trot and 4th in 5 games (the one being Fulham with Jay's red card) and that's something positive to build on.

Finally we are seeing the Skrtel-Agger partnership reaching it's potential and they compliment each other very well. Enrique is a fucking beast, he did really well shielding the ball, winning free kicks and throw-ins and offering the winger outside before cutting him off. Johnson had an off game and was trying to remain solid against a tight pack in midfield and the same time trying to provide the only natural width we had and was more victim of circumstances than a bad game from him, for me.

[Azi]

good points
our defence seems solid for years to come if only we could make a deal with milan to share their medical facilities, Pepe once again keeping aware for the whole 90 mins never did much but when needed he was there
the away kop seriously amazing was watching on sky (thanks to dnkw) my dad was shocked actually asked me if sky were having problems and were just playing a recorded version of the fans couldn't believe the volume of it   

now the bad
dont want to hammer the poor lad  but  Downing if maxi doesn't have the ball he will run into the box or try and come in downing seems to just stay by the touch line in the off chance that the cross isn't a good one and he has to cross it back in is it confidence i dont know
my other gripe bringing Carroll on in the last 4 minutes and to make it worse taking Suarez of aswell would rather we had both on for the rikiashay (sp) in the last 10 mins it genuinely looked like we had no one  in the box and you could see dagger getting annoyed at it aswell there was no movement in front of him.

[DanA]

I thought we played a good game with some really good performances through out. Nobody was bad, everyone worked hard and did what you'd expect of them. We just again couldn't put the ball in the back of the net. Even penalties we can't seem to put away this season. It's the same pattern over and over. The defence looks brilliant, our build up play fantastic, we get chance after chance but squander them. To be honest more and more it appears we've got an unbalanced squad. Too many chance creators and not enough finishers.

Team vs Wigan

                      Reina
Johnson   Skrtel     Agger     Enrique
Downing  Henderson  Adam Maxi
                Kuyt      Suarez
Subs: Bellamy, Carroll & Shelvey
 
I'm of the opinion that every single one of the players is quality but beyond the defenders all are best suited to creating chances.  A couple of them (Suarez & Bellamy) can do both but what we seemingly targeting last summer is what we've got. Chance after chance created but chance after chance squandered. 

For me it explains why Downing doesn't appear to be performing so well. We bought him for 20m which was a hefty price but he had a very successful season with Aston Villa. There he had Young & Bent, two good finishers that when given the opportunity will put the ball in the back of the net. In fact Henderson & Downing we're 3rd & 4th respectively for chances created (Adam was up there too). They're still creating them again this year, perhaps less prevelent because we've got a team full of chance creators but we've had more than our fair share, we're just unable to capitalise.  People will say he played poorly but Downing did his job against Wigan. He put the ball on a plate for Kuyt and it should have been in the back of the net. Instead another goal gone begging.

Carroll's another one, limited game time today but it was Carroll's ability to bring  Nolan, Barton & Ameobi into the game that had me impressed when at Newcastle. He bullied defenders and created chances for Newcastle midfielders to run on too.  But it doesn't take Einstein to figure out when he comes on with 20 minutes left and it's Shelvey, Downing & Bellamy supporting him, if Wigan watches Bellamy closely we're not going to score.

The last three games we've seen a new issue emerging.  Losing Lucas has meant yet another chance creator takes his place. It's been Adam & Henderson in the middle. Neither are suited to breaking down play but both are good in the build up and it's shown in the way we play. Again great in the build up but cracks appear on the counter.  Space between midfield and attack is getting exploited. Granted neither Wigan or Aston Vila scored but in my veiw it's just lucky that it's been Heskey & Moses trying to take adcantage and not Silva or Modric. Clint Depsey caused huge problems and if Clint Dempsey causes problem then Silva & Modric will be a nightmare.  It's hard to blame Adam & Henderson for this though as neither can be expected to excell at breaking down play. They're simply not a natural partnership and it comes down to us not having a balanced squad in the absence of our one true DM. Even Spearing, he's not really a proper DM.

When Gerrard returns we'll look much better. He's a born finisher, he's also much better at breaking up play but if nothing else he'll put all these fucking penalties were missing in the back of the net. But Gerrard can't be everywhere, he can't be DM breaking down play and then pushing forward and scoring from all these chances were missing and if his last year is anything to go by we shouldn't relying on him to be fit. Really we're not going to improve until we bring in new players.  A DM to break down play (in the absence of Lucas), perhaps a goal scoring attacking midfielder (Cover for Gerrard) and most importantly a striker that will put away all these fucking chances we are creating.

[Sucker-Punch]

Gutted

this is exactly why the past few seasons have gone the way they have.....
bring on a world class striker in Jan 

[ScouserAtHeart]

What's happening to Charlie Adam? The guy's been playing well when it comes to other aspects (tackling, winning the ball back, closing down spaces, or at least trying to anyway) but his main skill-sets, what he was known for at Blackpool and presumably the reason he was brought here, are horrendous. Be it the incisive, defence-splitting passing, or more worryingly, the set pieces. The corners especially are woeful. And didn't he put away all his penalties last year for Blackpool? Same goes for freekicks. Not to pick on the lad, cos like I said other aspects of his game are worth highlighting, but what happened to his set pieces when he got here? Has it got to do with something in training? Is it the pressure he can't handle?

[ScouseBrad]

I thought we played some brilliant football last night and we have been for a while now, we really are crying out for a world class top finisher. The lack of finish makes the providers look worse than they are actually playing. Downing brings in some brilliant opportunities, Henderson is growing game by game. I thought Adam looked a little nervous/ tired last night for some reason but all in all should have won that game.... we blasted them for 20 mins and if we had nicked two like we did against Villa then a different game. We need to get a proven finisher in the first week of Jan!

Thought the travelling Kop were fantastic last night!

[Mighty_Red]

As I said in the post-match thread, we are missing chances that the other teams are taking. And yes, the Torres of old would turn chances and half-chances into goals more often than not.

Kuyt should've put away one of those two chances - the first was hit right down the middle when it should have been to the keepers left. The second one from the free-kick was tough but he missed it so wildy it showed why he hasn't scored for 6 months.

Suarez is our Kenny, he is the creator & goalscorer but at the moment he is a little too wasteful in front of goal, but I think that will come with age especially when you consider he creates many of his own chances! Bellamy has done well but obviously it will be hard for him to play so many matches.

Obviously the main problem we have is Carroll - he is the one that should be scoring the goals, or giving the others enough space to do so. The fact that he is not playing is ringing alarm bells more than his form - is he doing enough in training to prove to Kenny that he deserves more time on the pitch? As the moment, it looks like he isn't.

What's the answer? Bringing in a "proven" goalscorer may not solve all our problems if he messes up the shape of the team. Ths solution is more hard work on the training pitch. We can all see how well most of the players link up, so now the players have to show an eye for goal

[helmboy_nige]

After the first 30 minutes when we were bright and camped in their half you kind of felt it was going to be one of those days.  When we won the penalty, I had a strange feeling of "he's gonna miss this", not because it was Adam, but just because.

I'm still struggling with this situation of having built a team that is winning us lots of corners, but the one player that might be able to take advantage of them is sat on the bench until it's too late.  I know that Carroll hasn't set the world alight, but he clearly needs games to gel into the team.

Would have preferred Bellamy from the start in this match, but then when I first looked at the line-up I felt it was fine, and there are no excuses for not winning a match like that.

We simply lack any form of cutting edge.  The team looks afraid of shooting in case they screw it up and then when they do shoot, they... well screw it up!  A lot of it feels like a confidence thing rather than a lack of quality.

[vdysvik]

I am happy to see that it is a positive round-table so far. Last night was of course a bit frustrating, we should have won the match, but apart from the Tottenham game, we have been spared of any of the "I can't believe this is Liverpool playing" moments of last year, and we look really solid.

The finishing touch is missing, but that will come eventually, be it with our current strikers or with a new striker coming in January. And over the course of the season, our luck with penalties and woodwork will even out.

I was not really surprised to see Wigan performing well, they have come into form lately, and I was frankly worried after having seen them against Chelsea in their last game. The Chelsea that beat Man City was matched by Wigan in their 5-2-2-1 formation that both Chelsea and at times Liverpool struggled with. I think more teams will struggle at the DW now that Wigan seems to have found their footing, and I would not be surprised if they stay up.

On our players, I think several players were poorer than they have been in the last couple of games (strange wayward passes from normally assured individuals like Glen Johnson and Maxi, and Adam seemed a bit off), and Kuyt looked a bit laboured. The central defense is brilliant now, with Skrtel and Agger really showing they are the number one partnership. And Henderson is proving to be a very fine central midfielder. I am also among those that think that Downing gets a lot of flack for not being Nani. He is a very useful midfielder for us, even though he does not play as an all out winger would, with added stepovers.

As for Suarez, he was great considering the circumstances, but he will improve once the bulk of the commotion surrounding the "Negrogate" has ended. He looked a bit jaded last night, and might need a rest anyway. And we really should give Carroll more game time, also together with Suarez. I still believe that they could form a real partnership, Suarez has shown in Ajax that he can play well off a bigger, more static striker.

[wah00ey]

More goals needed from Adam, Hendo, Downing and the midfield in general.  When we were great, nearly every player in the team was capable of scoring.  We are nowhere near that at the moment, particularly in the middle of the park.

[Junkle]

There is very little else the players can do except to put the ball in the back of the net.
The only thing I can say is that the absence of lucas is glaring as oppositions look dangerous whenever they break with no one to read their intentions well in advance. Teams are having more shots on goals these days and this makes an uncomfortable view/watching for som fo us.

[TheVoiceOfRiise]

I think it's pretty fair to say that Al Habsi had a great game last night. We played some great football as we have done in a number of games this season and not come away with the 3 points. I'm still really optimistic about everything because we are reallt peppering some of these keepers and I can think if several performaces from keepers against us this season that have been truly exceptional. Like our 'hitting of the woodwork' stats i'd put us at the top of the 'making the keeper produce a world class performance' league too. Off the top of my head I'm thinking, Swansea at Home, Vorm was awesome, as he has been all season to be fair... Norwich at home, Ruddy just seem to get something on every shot on target,.   Joe Hart for City, pulled off 2 great saves late on in the game that would have seen us take all 3 points. Fulham Away, Schwarzer was quite simply the only reason we didn't take 3 points. Al Habsi last night, call it poor finishing if you like but I thought the unorthodox style employed by Al Habsi worked to the maximum for him and his team last night, the pen was by no means the worst I've seen taken.

Sure, These keepers and others have had inspirational performances against other teams too but we just seem to be really bringing the best out of all of them. I'm confident that at some point, the tide is going to turn and we'll see a lot more goals from our  boys. Keep the faith!

[Brentieke]

Sorry, dont share the positive nature of the OP.

Thought it was a pretty poor performance yesterday., following on from last Sunday's poor performance at Villa.

Our passing was woeful at times, really sloppy. We created very little to be honest. Bar the pen, there wa a chance for Kuyt in the first half and the best one for Johnson. Wasnt a case of needing a finisher (it was far from a Norwich like performance), we seriously lacked ideas in the final third.

The midfield 5 for me were atrocious. Downing created a chacne for Kuyt and Maxi for Glen, but apart from that, they were all lacking ideas. Hard to pinpoint who was the worst as they all had terrible games by their standards. Kuyt really should never play again on the right hand side, whenever he comes in it should be off Suarez.

Getting very fed up with Downing. I was one of those who was behind his signing, mainly because of the feedback I got from one of his ex teammates who couldnt stop raving about him. But he's been, on the whole, extremely poor for us so far. He's lacking creativity and he's lacking bollocks. When was the last time you saw him get past the full back, dribble into the box? In a 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-3, he really needs to be doing a shitload more. Just coming across as yet another player we've bought from a mid table club who's now completely overawed at his surroundings and looking out of his depth.

The central midfield 2 were also atrocious. Adam had his worse game for us,really sloppy with the ball. Henderson played it simple but otherwise offered next to nothing. That pairing wont work as neither are very good defensively and that limits how much they can offer in the final third. We've been lucky Spearo has missed 3 games against shite sides because I've never seen, in my life, the amount of space there is in front of our defence at the moment. A good side would have ripped us apart.

Huge positive is the defence. They got fuck all protection from the center mids and they did very well, restricting Wigan to long shots. Skrtel, I thought, was an absolute rock. Most improved player of the season. Full backs gave alot of width and showed alot of energy too.

Im not overtly worried, as I think that was only the 4th game of the season Ive thought we were poor. But top 4 could be a pipe dream if we're honest. We keep losing points to silly teams like Wigan and lose points when we're dominating.

Liverpool Football Club: Losing silly points to silly teams since 1991. Even in our best season since we last won the league (08/09) we still lost some unbelievably stupid points to nothing clubs. It's as much part of our DNA now as scoring late goals was in the 80s.

[Stevo79]

After half an hour I actually thought that was as poor a performance as I've seen from us for a while. Our attack was slow and ponderous, they realised this and grouped their defence and midfield quite central, meaning we had to go wide to get any joy. Our full backs did this well at times but Downing and Maxi were anonymous for large parts.

Adam gave the ball away far too much and there was at times a lot of space between the midfield and back four which led to a few reasonable efforts from 20 yards or so.

That being said, we still did plenty to have won the game, it just came back to the same old story of not finishing our chances. Kuyt should have done better with the pull back to him, Johnson missed a sitter (it really was a poor finish), and we also missed a penalty.

Our defence looked strong again and another clean sheet in the bag. We have two excellent attacking full backs which is great to see.

A striker and a creative player are what I would love to see brought in for January.

[Grobbelrevell]

What can I say about that, there was just a haunting sense of deja-vu about the whole thing.

From the great start and the failure to capitalise on it, to the seemingly inevitable contrast thereafter, as well as the lack of (to steal a Rafa term) control.

Manchester City have scored thirty-three more goals than us already this season. We've scored twenty goals in seventeen games. At what point do we concede that our inability to score goals is a massive problem and, at this point in time, looking like being the decisive factor in us failing to quality for the Champions League?

Watching us play, this season especially, you simply don't expect us to score. It's a faint hope at best. Compare that with the other 'top' sides and there's a marked difference. For all of our intricate passing and movement - which is undoubtedly a joy to behold at times - once we arrive in the final third we seem to lack [nous/craft/guile/creativity/clinicality - take your pick]. Add to that our vulnerability through the heart of midfield and there are (I believe) two main areas of concern. It's undeniable that we miss Lucas massively in this area and last night merely rubber stamped that for anyone who still harboured doubts about his importance to this side. The ease in which the likes of Fulham and Wigan have found space in between our midfield and defence is worrying. You could almost see their midfielders eyes lighting up when they realised just how much room they were being afforded. Against a better side we won't be coming away with a point playing that way, that's for sure.

I don't think we're far away, though. In fact, I know we're not. The defensive unit itself is looking as solid as ever (and actually did very well considering the void left in front of them again last night). Twelve goals conceded all season backs up that assertion. The return of Lucas (or possibly an addition offering similar attributes) will go a long way to returning the defensive solidity to the midfield. In addition our passing, movement and interchanging of positions when in possession is encouraging for the future (as is the constant improvement being shown by the likes of Henderson) - you can see the vision, our main issue in this area is maintaining the level that we are capable of for an entire match, which I believe will come in time. We are a team in transition and it's easy to forget that point. Another of our major losses through injury - Steven Gerrard - will take us up a level in this area. Hopefully he can keep himself fit for an extended period.

Overall, it was disappointing and frankly not good enough if we do harbour serious ambitions of finishing in the top four. Add a sprinkling of perspective however and it's not the end of the world. We are improving. We're going the right way and we will continue to do so. There will be setbacks, we always knew that (and if you didn't, you should have).

[Flaccid Bobby Fowler]

adam was poor apart fromt he pen, he wasnt at the races at all. downing was non existant again, kuyt looks like hes had enough and maxi was off form. seriously need to get to the jan window and spend wisely on our attacking play.

[BoRed]

Am i the only one who makes a link between that performance and what happened the day before?

To me, it looked like we set out to win that game for Luis. The whole affair meant we went into the game with added pressure, and, as time wore on, we got more and more frustrated, and some began to crack under pressure. As good as the first 30 minutes were, the rest of the game was littered with misplaced passes, some of which could easily have led to Wigan scoring. Our lads seemed nervous, legs were shaking.

I know we've dropped silly points many times already, but this seemed altogether different. We wanted to give the world the image that it's business as usual, only it wasn't. Even when we won the penalty, you could see Suarez wanted to take it, you could sense that almost the whole of the away end wanted him to take it - but it had to be business as usual. Yet it was probably in the back of Adam's mind, the thought of "perhaps I should let Luis take it", enough to distract him, enough to make him shoot closer to the middle of the goal, at the ideal height for a goalkeeper to save it. And Adam never recovered from it, misplaced passes grew into howlers, and in the end we were lucky that Wigan were poor enough not to take advantage.

In all of that, Suarez himself seemed to stay calmest. He was still our main goal threat, he won numerous free kicks and a penalty, made runs, passed well, and was generally a nuisance. I thought Downing and Henderson had decent games, Maxi faded very quickly, while Kuyt was strangely quiet. We can probably thank Reina for keeping a clean sheet, while the defence certainly looked nervous at times.

However, the big worry for me is that now, and for a while to come, no game will be business as usual. The Suarez issue will hover above us for a long time. The players have been distracted, the club destabilised, the player's reputation tainted, and I think this is exactly what the accusers' intention was in the first place. Even if, after all the appeals, Suarez is entirely cleared, the damage will be done. And part of that damage will be points dropped while we simply had other things on our minds.

The priority now must be to make sure that what happens off the pitch has no effect on our performances on the pitch, and that's easier said than done.

[steveeastend]

As long a we don´t improve our attacking quality there will always be games like this.

Besides that I think a negative side effect from our pass and move is the fact that it´s very intense for everybody involved, no so strictly tactical driven, and for this more demanding for the players.

I think we could see the results of this so far this season, everytime we had a game three days later and could only rotate one or two players.

Considering this, I thought the movement in the second half was horrible, the passing sloppy..

The solution again to me.. bigger squad and better players in some key positions for addition.


January, here we come!

[mightymoose1972]

I thought we played a good game with some really good performances through out. Nobody was bad, everyone worked hard and did what you'd expect of them. We just again couldn't put the ball in the back of the net. Even penalties we can't seem to put away this season. It's the same pattern over and over. The defence looks brilliant, our build up play fantastic, we get chance after chance but squander them. To be honest more and more it appears we've got an unbalanced squad. Too many chance creators and not enough finishers.

I've just skimmed through a few pages of the post match thread... are you talking about the same game?

Good OP, cheers

[barneystuta]

Was a funny game really. And pretty much the same old same old.

I found an interesting statistic regarding us and Manchester City (before yesterdays game). They have had only 2 more "shots in the box" than we had. They score 1 in 5, we score 1 in 10.

I don't think it is as easy as saying "sign a young Robbie Fowler" it is a little more complex than that. Players like Kuyt, Maxi, Johnson all had good chances last night. As did Adam of course, who missed the penalty.

Another interesting statistic (if you find them interesting that is).

Twitter: @DanKennett
2/5 However if we look at how often a chance becomes an assist: MC 15.3%; MU 13.9%, ARS 12.1%, #LFC 3.6%

Again, really demonstrating how wasteful we are in front of goal. We all know Arsenal have been in the past, nice pretty play, but no cutting edge. But now Van Persie is on fire (last night equalled Thierry Henry for number of goals in a calendar year, and has a couple of games to beat it) and he is the one firing them up the table.

Basically, we appear to be doing everything we should be from a creative point of view. Something which we obviously addressed in the summer with the signing of Downing, Henderson, and Adam, all of whom were near the top of the "chance created" chart last season.

But fundamentally what matters is outscoring your opponent to win. The fact we have such a tight defence (Skrtel was outstanding yesterday, as was Agger), has allowed us to pick up wins/draws when really we could have lost.

As for last nights game specifically, I thought we started very well. The opening 20-30 minutes was pretty good, created some solid chances, and really could have been a goal or two up. I am not sure what changed after that, but for the remainder of the first half, we were on the back foot.

Our midfield looked legless for the last 15 minutes, chasing back the Wigan midfield runners, and every time they got the beating of us. Lucas is out for the season, we know that, and there is little we can do to fix that. I think Spearing may come back in against Blackburn (or maybe not at home to be fair), giving us that extra body in the centre, allowing Henderson and Adam to concentrate on the attacking side.

That isn't to say Henderson and Adam played bad, I think they played pretty well. And to be fair, both had a go at tracking back/defending. But when you have had the luxury of Lucas behind you, you have a lot of more freedom.

Maxi was the other "midfield" player, but he was playing more off Suarez, than with Henderson/Adam. Again, we could see the almost telepathic interchanges with him and Suarez, and there was some really neat football played between the two. Maxi was probably involved in some of our best moves. But, he isn't the type of player to track back, and get a tackle in. Not knocking the lad, I think he is great, but again, it left Henderson/Adam exposed.

Downing seems to be a hot topic between fans. Yet to score, yet to get an assist, and seems to go in and out of games. Last night he put in a decent cross for Kuyt early on, which Kuyt struck straight at the keeper. Fine margins, had that gone in, Downing maybe would have been buzzing off the fact he finally created his first Liverpool goal. But, is he doing enough? Creatively, yes, he is. He is creating a lot of chances for others, putting in some decent balls into the box. But it leads to the problem I mentioned at the start, the lack of finishing.

This kind of makes Downing an easy target. He is doing his bit, but does his bit fit into the way we play? Our best moves seem to come from interchanging quick passing, and movement from our attacking players. Downing delivering a wicked cross into the box, isn't being put away. I think Downing is doing OK, doing a job, and if we can get the right player in, you will start to notice him a bit more. Until then, I am sure he will be in and out the side (with Bellamy, who can't play too many games due to his injury hit past).

And finally, a player I seem to mention week in week out, but Enrique was brilliant yet again. I can only remember once (may have been more) that someone got a run on him, and that was only late on in the game when we were chasing it. Out of all the players, he probably wanted to win the most. Or in the way he played he did. So many great bursts forward, so good at retaining possession, but when he got into a decent area, his options were limited.

All in all, it was the same old same old. So close yet so far. Outscoring your opponent is key, and something we clearly have not done enough of this season. We need to find a player who will get us 12-15 goals in the second half of the season, and if we do, we will fly up the table I am sure. Had we scored 1 more goal in each of our last 5 league games, we would have an extra 5 points and in 3rd place. Had we scored an extra league goal in every other game this season (9 extra goals) we would have had an extra 11 points, also in 3rd place, but 1point behind United.

All ifs, buts, and maybes. Something as a Liverpool fan we always seem to be talking about. But if we can crack this in the second half of the season, either from within or from a January signing, then we are in the chase for 4th. If we don't, it is going to be a struggle.

[DanA]

Sorry, dont share the positive nature of the OP.

Thought it was a pretty poor performance yesterday., following on from last Sunday's poor performance at Villa.

You thought we were poor against Villa? I don't know I share the sentiment. We got two goals from excellently worked corners and then proceed to completely dominate possession, i'm not sure what the final figure was but it was hovering around 65% at one stage. Absolutely we should have scored and we left gaps between midfield and defence but for mine it was a good solid performance.

Looking at the two most obvious negatives.

The space between midfield and defence - It's my feeling that if we harbor any hope of a top four finish then we need to bring in a defensive midfielder. Individually Adam & Henderson are good player but as a partnership it's a ticking time bomb.

The inability to finish chances - I feel we could go a couple of ways.
A) We could go for a clinical player like Huntelaar or Solgado
B) We could get a wide forward like Remy or Hazard
C) We could go for an attacking midfielder like Gourcuff or Kagawa

For me the players that need to be replaced are Kuyt & Maxi with potentially Shelvey going back on loan to Blackpool. All good players but if we want to change the way this team is performing I think we need to balance out the squad.

[-Willo-]

Questions have to be asked regarding Kenny and some of the signings he's made since he's been in charge, it's safe to say he's been below average in this department and simply spending all this money we've spent more wisely would surely of seen us better off than we currently are.

Carroll - has been that bad he can only get 3 minutes in a game we need to score in
Downing - has he done anything of note since being a Liverpool player, literally not even seen him do anything
Adam - when he's good he's ok, when he's bad we may as well be down to 10 men, sums him up

A combined fee of over £60 million right here, if I had just somehow missed 12 months of football and you showed me that list, and never told me what teams them 3 had signed for, I'd probably of said someone like Fulham or Stoke for about £25/30 million maximum combined.

Whilst the football and defence has been good, our poor decisions in January (Bar Suarez) and ludicrous decisions like swapping Meireles for Adam in effect has made us less effective than what we could have been had we been more wise in the Market.

[DanA]

Questions have to be asked regarding Kenny and some of the signings he's made since he's been in charge, it's safe to say he's been below average in this department and simply spending all this money we've spent more wisely would surely of seen us better off than we currently are.

Carroll - has been that bad he can only get 3 minutes in a game we need to score in
Downing - has he done anything of note since being a Liverpool player, literally not even seen him do anything
Adam - when he's good he's ok, when he's bad we may as well be down to 10 men, sums him up

A combined fee of over £60 million right here, if I had just somehow missed 12 months of football and you showed me that list, and never told me what teams them 3 had signed for, I'd probably of said someone like Fulham or Stoke for about £25/30 million maximum combined.

Whilst the football and defence has been good, our poor decisions in January (Bar Suarez) and ludicrous decisions like swapping Meireles for Adam in effect has made us less effective than what we could have been had we been more wise in the Market.

See I don't agree with you. I think Adam has been very good value for the 6m or so we shelled out for him. But he's meant to bet the attacking half of a central midfield paring and when he's beside Henderson he doesn't have that luxury.

Regarding Downing I think that's harsh. In the last 3 games he should have picked up 3-4 assists based on the balls he's delivered in. But you tend to forget what he does because we have six other players on the pitch who are all creating chances....nobodies finishing them but they're created non the less.

Carroll I agree 35m was pricey even if he did deliver and he hasn't. But he's really needs a midfielder to knock down too. It was Nolan at Newcastle and it should have been Gerrard but as yet he hasn't really had the chance to create that partnership.

I think something like the following would be really effective:

                 Reina
Johnson Skrtel Agger Enrique
             Lucas  Adam
    Suarez   Gerrard  Downing
                 Carroll

or
                  Reina
Johnson Skrtel Agger Enrique
             Lucas  Adam
Henderson  Gerrard  Bellamy
                   Kuyt

Both mirror each other but have the same flaw, Gerrard is too important. They don't work without his surging runs, goal scoring instincts and creative ability. Shelvey's 19 you can't expect him to be Gerrard. The minute we offloaded both Meireles and Aquilani we screw ourselves. 

[Geppvindh's]

Carroll - has been that bad he can only get 3 minutes in a game we need to score in
Downing - has he done anything of note since being a Liverpool player, literally not even seen him do anything
Adam - when he's good he's ok, when he's bad we may as well be down to 10 men, sums him up

A combined fee of over £60 million right here, if I had just somehow missed 12 months of football and you showed me that list, and never told me what teams them 3 had signed for, I'd probably of said someone like Fulham or Stoke for about £25/30 million maximum combined.

That is quite harsh IMO. I understand the frustration but they have never been as bad as its being played out, especially Adam. When you consider how many goal we've scored this season and how many have come through Adam scoring or assisting, it tells you he is the least of our worries today.

Carroll is a worry though. But I am prepared to wait and give him time, while others are not. To each man his own.

[Rococo]

After the first half hour, we were pretty average last night.  In the first half hour we should have scored - had we scored I think we would have won relatively comfortably.  Seems to be a bit of an issue for us, in that if we don't score early in the game, we rarely look like we're going to make a breakthrough.

The midfield was generally poor, with the exception of Henderson who I thought did well.  We looked like we lacked shape across the midfield and all to often there was a big Lucas shaped hole, right in front of the back four.  Adam lost the ball way too often and Maxi had very little impact.  Downing showed some decent touches and  will probably get slated much more than he deserves, so I wont say too much about him

Up front, we didn't seem to have too many ideas.  I thought Dirk had a poor game and didn't pose any great attacking threat. 

One thing I have noticed this season is that our chances rarely come from getting in behind the last man.  We don't seem to play through balls or have an attacker on the last defender, ready to make a run past them.  Most of our chances seem to come from either playing through the defence (usually someone like Suarez dribbling through) or from one of the wide men cutting inside.  I think this is something we really miss as it tends to create clearer opportunities (one on ones with goalkeepers) and something which Mr Torres had quite a lot of success through when he was here, receiving through balls from Gerrard.

The big positive has to be that the defence looks solid.  Even with very limited protection from midfield, they were able to deal with most of what came at them.  Enrique has been a fantastic signing, he seem to be so comfortable on the ball that he can not only tackle well, but play (or even run!) the ball out of danger.  Skrtel has been absolutely fantastic too.  Defensively he's been rock-like, but he also looks a lot more composed on the ball than he had done previously.  Almost like he's been learning off Agger!

Some may not agree, but last night was one of the few occasions when the score didn't seem as important to me - as such, it has to be said that the support for Luis from the supporters and players was really great to see/ hear.

[bleedsred1978]

So the night began with a touching gesture from the team in support of Luis. I’m thinking these guys are going to run themselves into the ground for each other here. Move over Wigan this isn’t about you tonight. The long awaited drubbing coming right up.

As soon as night follows day what is starting to feel like the inevitable happens.

We dominate for the opening 20 minutes again without scoring. Chances go a begging for Johnson and Kuyt and as the half progresses Wigan get the message that we can’t hit a barn door at the moment and begin to fill their lungs with second wind.

The first half ends with us trading blows but with neither side showing much penetration. Wigan are happy to play on the counter. Dirk is showing his back to our midfield.

Too many touches I remember thinking as I watched the second half, that and why the fuck is nobody closing down the middle as a succession of under no pressure efforts are flung towards Pepe’s goal.

Really really poor second half.

No invention, tired legs, tired minds all to blame me thinks. Dirk had his worst game in year’s imo. Really fucking hid. Downing flattered to deceive again, seeing allot of the ball but doing not a whole lot with it.

Charlie’s radar was off, well off. Passing woeful all night. Henderson ok and no more. Maxi started well but faded, nothing new there. Dirk, poor. Luis tried hard but he can’t be expected to do it every game.

All in all it was like any number of our games this season. Starting brightly, failing to score and end up tit for that with a galvanized team of less quality but level in terms of effort, oh and another man of the match display from an opposition keeper. You could nearly right the match reports the day before at the moment.

On the plus side the defense looks as good as there is in the league, borne out by the stats I know but overall I mean. Going forwards as well as clean sheets wise.

Frustrating but understandable.

Worrying stat of the day. Bottom two in the league, Bolton and Blackburn have BOTH scored more goals than us this season. 

[Junkle]

I think something like the following would be really effective:

                 Reina
Johnson Skrtel Agger Enrique
             Lucas  Adam
    Suarez   Gerrard  Downing
                 Carroll

or
                  Reina
Johnson Skrtel Agger Enrique
             Lucas  Adam
Henderson  Gerrard  Bellamy
                   Kuyt

Why even think of Lucas when he is not going to be consideered in the next many months. Are you contributing because you watched the match/matches or just for the sake of contributing...

[montysmum]

It would have been great if we had gone out last night and battered Wigan, scored a shed load of goals and Suarez had scored a hat trick  but it doesn't seem to be our way at the moment.

I don't think we played badly, although the early stages of the game we seemed a bit disjointed, not quite clicking.

I wonder how all the furore surrounding Suarez and the club generally at the minute are affecting the players.  If we are all pissed off with things it is not unreasonable to think they are being affected too, and at times we look panicky and desperate to score.  The longer we go on playing well and not scoring the worse this might become.

I think we desperately need to bring in a good quality, running into the box striker.  Far too often we have the wingers looking to put a ball across and there is no one in the box to put threat on goal  It's as if players are frightened to take the risk of stepping across the white lines!

Bellamy gives us a decent threat but can't be played every game and while up to now I have been in the 'give Andy Carroll time' camp, I am rapidly losing faith that he is a player we will ever be able to use.  The fact that Kenny uses him in such bit parts seems to back up that notion, and while other top clubs have several players that can give goal scoring options we are desperately short.

I felt sorry for Kenny last night.  In the post match interview it looked like he was desperately trying to put a positive gloss on things while knowing all was not well, but maybe I am looking for things that aren't there.

[Junkle]

There is great potential to this new british outlook working but in the meantime we see Meireles and babel scoring goals some where else. i envy those teams.
so far in the  heavy weighgt super bout between Tores and Carroll the points after 6 rounds [half season almost gone] I can't see the winner. carroll plays three minutes here, six over there and none at times. Torres 15 here and there and with no result....

[jooneyisdagod]

I think this game showed clearly that we lack flair and we have no pace in our team.  I know a lot of people have said that we created a lot of chances and so on but I don't think many of the chances we created were easy chances.  Glen Johnson for instance had a shot saved and I suppose that was our clearest opening all game and even then he did what he could and the goalkeeper pulled off a good save.  The problem is we don't create these openings enough in a game.  And that to me is because of the abject lack of creativity and skill apart from Suarez. 


Another issue is our inability to take chances.  Many posters have called for a clinical striker to be signed and I wonder what good that will do really given we don't often create the kind of chances we ought to be creating.  Most of our chances seem to be shots from tight angles or volleys or seem to involve shooting through an absolute barricade of opponents and you know what, odds are these aren't going to go in unless the goalkeeper is incompetent or if the player taking the volley somehow manages to show some exquisite technique.  I guess what I'm trying to say is that like most things the quality of chances we create is more important than the quantity and at the moment it is quantity over quality.


Why do I think this happens ?  I'll come back to it once I address the issues in the centre of midfield.  I like both Henderson and Adam but neither are defensive players.  However top teams often leave out a defensive midfielder when playing teams like Wigan safe in the knowledge that they are capable of pinning them down in their own half and thereby cutting down any risk of being exposed on a quick counter since they also seem to have quick defenders.  Now, I believe that we have for the first time in a long time a very sound defensive pairing.  The back 5 for me are excellent.  They are all quick and can manage to thwart counter attacks when they happen sporadically.  However there was a huge gap between our midfield and defence and Gomez and Moses often dropped into this gap and were able to get on the ball and look up which is never a good prospect.  Again, all teams run this risk but the difference between the other teams and us is simple.  The likes of City and Spurs have really quick wide players and given the threat these players pose I believe opponents are a bit reluctant to pour forward leaving space for these players to run into.  And this is where we are lacking IMO.  We may often win the ball when a counter gets going but we have no outlet that can actually stretch the opponents. 


The lack of pace and skill is not the be all and end all of it but I do think we are massively handicapped on that front.  I think Paul Tomkins recently posted an article about why Carroll should not be judged so early because he is a target man and how target men take a long time before coming good as opposed to pacey players who have it easy since they can simply knock the ball past a player and they have already taken one man out of the equation.  I suppose that article was meant to convey support for Carroll but what it did was highlight our chronic lack of pace.  I think it speaks volumes that apart from Suarez, the only two players I would trust to dribble past defenders and then pull away from them are our full backs.  And until we sort that situation out I think we will see plenty more games like this where the team is prepared to sit back and then hit us on the counter.  The situation only exacerbated by the lack of Lucas which leaves their forwards acres of space to drop into and collect the ball.  That is the one area I desperately hope for improvement.  Pace and skill please Kenny. 

[Mutton Geoff]

ok I think some watch the game but dont comprehend what they are looking at so for my threepennyworth!

Adam wasn't great but I will cut him some slack, he has been asked to sit in as a DM that is not his natural position in fact you will be hard pressed to find if he has ever played there before last sunday! So he cocks up in the game now and then still did enough back tracking to help the defence and also went forward. With the night he was having I didn't want him to take the pen but didn't seem like the best senior options of Dirk/Maxi wanted it either, and sure Suarez might have been an option but Adam had the guts to take it.

The pen itself was a carbon copy of Andy's so do we practice pens because blasting it straight down the middle isn't working!

Henderson close to man of the match for me, maybe Enrique stole that from him though, he is flourishing in the absence of Lucas and Stevie getting more game time and looks more and more one hell of a player! He plays it simple, effective, almost a clinical trait to his mindset, he shows maturity beyond his years and a legend and possible Captain in the future!

Downing second only to Andy as the man they love to hate, his problem last night was he started on the right and then for some reason god knows what he switched to the left for a while, it is plain to see that he is not on the same wavelength as Enrique they hamper each other and he is far more effective for us on the right!
 I think people expected some flying winger like the old days but Downing seems to be more of a wide player he enables Glen to get to the byline, and although at times through lack of confidence he runs like a headless chicken, I know there is more to his game than we have seen so far!  I also think that people who say he has never contributed anything are wrong, if others put away all the chances he has delivered since day one his assists would look quite healthy now. He simply needs a goal or someone to score from his pass to get his low confidence up!

Right now Kenny for me he got it wrong in selection, i have defended Dirk for years it seems in here but for me Kenny should have started with Shelvey instead, the combination between Jonjo, Charlie , Jordon against Villa worked well so why change it?

 Maxi for Craig I can understand with Craig needing to be not overused. Also if we are going to give Andy a go 5 minutes here and there will do nothing for the lads confidence either give him 20 minutes at least or leave him on the bench!

In the first half the CB's didnt look as assured as before mind you we were getting over run in midfield then.

Final point Victor Moses he was good at Palace needed time to bed in at Wigan and was given it, now they have a handy player on their books, maybe something for our posters wanting all the new guys to be an instant success to think about!

[longtimered]

The clearest image that struck me is that we dont have a proper striker/finisher on the pitch which makes me wonder how highly the staff rate Carroll if he  cant even get a proper stint -e.g 20/30 mins-as sub in such a game.The pluses and minuses of this display were typical of the season.A dedicated stiker with some mobility must be the priority in the jan transfer window.

[DanA]

Why even think of Lucas when he is not going to be consideered in the next many months. Are you contributing because you watched the match/matches or just for the sake of contributing...

Because I was looking at what Kenny may have had planned and how those plans have been derailed all season and more particularly again in this Wigan game. Add Gerrard and our biggest problem we saw against Wigan and indeed all year could be solved.  I was also trying to explain why our two under achieving signings once again didn't have an impact and how this game mirrors our entire season. I think it's possible that Gerrard could make the underachievers viable, perhaps even desirable options for us. The reason Lucas was included was to highlight a new issue that is emerging from his absence. It may not have been capitalised on this game but it was definitely evident.

Bottom line is I think quality cover for both is crucial and this game highlights it

[DanA]

ok I think some watch the game but dont comprehend what they are looking at so for my threepennyworth!

Adam wasn't great but I will cut him some slack, he has been asked to sit in as a DM that is not his natural position in fact you will be hard pressed to find if he has ever played there before last sunday! So he cocks up in the game now and then still did enough back tracking to help the defence and also went forward. With the night he was having I didn't want him to take the pen but didn't seem like the best senior options of Dirk/Maxi wanted it either, and sure Suarez might have been an option but Adam had the guts to take it.

The pen itself was a carbon copy of Andy's so do we practice pens because blasting it straight down the middle isn't working!

Henderson close to man of the match for me, maybe Enrique stole that from him though, he is flourishing in the absence of Lucas and Stevie getting more game time and looks more and more one hell of a player! He plays it simple, effective, almost a clinical trait to his mindset, he shows maturity beyond his years and a legend and possible Captain in the future!

Downing second only to Andy as the man they love to hate, his problem last night was he started on the right and then for some reason god knows what he switched to the left for a while, it is plain to see that he is not on the same wavelength as Enrique they hamper each other and he is far more effective for us on the right!
 I think people expected some flying winger like the old days but Downing seems to be more of a wide player he enables Glen to get to the byline, and although at times through lack of confidence he runs like a headless chicken, I know there is more to his game than we have seen so far!  I also think that people who say he has never contributed anything are wrong, if others put away all the chances he has delivered since day one his assists would look quite healthy now. He simply needs a goal or someone to score from his pass to get his low confidence up!

Right now Kenny for me he got it wrong in selection, i have defended Dirk for years it seems in here but for me Kenny should have started with Shelvey instead, the combination between Jonjo, Charlie , Jordon against Villa worked well so why change it?

 Maxi for Craig I can understand with Craig needing to be not overused. Also if we are going to give Andy a go 5 minutes here and there will do nothing for the lads confidence either give him 20 minutes at least or leave him on the bench!

In the first half the CB's didnt look as assured as before mind you we were getting over run in midfield then.

Final point Victor Moses he was good at Palace needed time to bed in at Wigan and was given it, now they have a handy player on their books, maybe something for our posters wanting all the new guys to be an instant success to think about!

I agree with all of this. Shelvey should have played but can understand Kenny hesitating on a 19 year old. Really it needs to be Gerrard.

[Jason_King]

so where does gerrard fit in when he comes back?

4411 playing off a Suarez/Carroll?
In a midfield 3, and if so how is that set up? Is he forward? Sitting bit deeper allowing Adam a bit more freedom?

Im not sure Adam/Gerrard will be any good together(unless there is a Spearing behind them). Gerrard has little midfield discipline and Adams isnt very mobile.

What thinketh you lot?

[Aristotle]

Was this split into the main forum or did someone just start a seperate thread?

[DanA]

so where does gerrard fit in when he comes back?

4411 playing off a Suarez/Carroll?
In a midfield 3, and if so how is that set up? Is he forward? Sitting bit deeper allowing Adam a bit more freedom?

Im not sure Adam/Gerrard will be any good together(unless there is a Spearing behind them). Gerrard has little midfield discipline and Adams isnt very mobile.

What thinketh you lot?

For me:
Games expected to win:
                Reina
Johnson Skrtel Agger Enrique
      Henderson   Adam
Suarez   Gerrard  Downing
               Carroll

But asymmetrical with Suarez on the shoulder and Downing a bit deeper (they can switch sides too). Against bigger teams I think in the absence of Lucas we're forced to play Gerrard DM.

Tougher fixtures:
                  Reina
Johnson Skrtel Agger Enrique
          Gerrard   Adam
 Bellamy Henderson  Downing
                 Suarez
 

[Garcepticon]

Downing is the dead end of attacks. Far too often, especially on the right, he will run forward and A, look for someone behind him to pass too, B, turn back inside and run across the box - but not angled towards the goal and then pass back to a midfielder. He has absolutely no confidence, it is painful to watch. I hate watching it. Passionately.

Al Habsi didn't have a great game at all.

Henderson chance - hit it with his side foot straight at Al Habsi
Kuyt chance - hit it weakly right at the keeper
Adam penalty - a replica of the Carroll monstrosity against Chelsea

For all the good passing, I never see us pass it into a man on the edge of the box and then return the pass and try and work it into the box. We ponderously work it around the area and rarely create good chances. One of the only times we did it was the Glen Johnson chance.

I disagree that we can be positive about this game, we were awful and I honestly didn't think we looked like scoring.