Author Topic: LIVERPOOL TRANSFER THREAD  (Read 2676534 times)

Offline Fromola

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Re: LIVERPOOL TRANSFER THREAD
« Reply #34880 on: August 4, 2022, 06:01:28 pm »
Because they're all not equal in ability and you can't just plug and play one for another without having some real consequences for team ability. So to just line up all the minutes and say it's all the same just isn't accurate.

For me you have Fabinho and Thiago as basically World Class or Great and then the rest all have issues of some sort that. Now we have Klopp and I trust that he'll always be able to jigsaw this together but it can be the difference between a title and not. The Spurs game for instance, it was a midfield of Morton, Milner and Keita. Yes we should have had a penalty and a red card but we also had absolutely no control in the game at all. So having to play two of Ox, Jones, Elliot, Milner and possibly even Keita in any combination in midfield could be extremely problematic depending on the opponent.

It also may not matter as any absences may just line up perfectly and we win the title on the trot, who knows? But if there's something you want to pick a hole in for why we may come up short then this is exactly it and why people keep saying we need someone else.

We always need Fabinho and/or Thiago on the pitch, really. Henderson does a good job in the Fabinho role but you'd still want Thiago next to him (and they're 31 and 32).  Keita has never truly convinced in either in either of those two deeper roles, not over a period of time, Wijnaldum has gone and Milner is now 36.

It's gambling heavily again on Thiago's fitness over a season. He mostly stayed fit last season which was key but could be a real slog when he wasn't. All those games against Chelsea last season, I don't think we had Fabinho and Thiago together for any of them.
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Offline Jookie

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Re: LIVERPOOL TRANSFER THREAD
« Reply #34881 on: August 4, 2022, 07:13:54 pm »
Because they're all not equal in ability and you can't just plug and play one for another without having some real consequences for team ability. So to just line up all the minutes and say it's all the same just isn't accurate.

For me you have Fabinho and Thiago as basically World Class or Great and then the rest all have issues of some sort that. Now we have Klopp and I trust that he'll always be able to jigsaw this together but it can be the difference between a title and not. The Spurs game for instance, it was a midfield of Morton, Milner and Keita. Yes we should have had a penalty and a red card but we also had absolutely no control in the game at all. So having to play two of Ox, Jones, Elliot, Milner and possibly even Keita in any combination in midfield could be extremely problematic depending on the opponent.

It also may not matter as any absences may just line up perfectly and we win the title on the trot, who knows? But if there's something you want to pick a hole in for why we may come up short then this is exactly it and why people keep saying we need someone else.

This is all fair enough but feel like massive cop out to the questions I asked.

So let's try and add a bit of granularity and break it down by midfield role. I suspect Klopp and his coaching staff do a more detailed version of this and scenario plan what minutes and combinations they may expect to have to play over the course of a season.

No. 6 position requires ~5000 minutes.

In my projection it's 3000 minutes from Fabinho and 2000 from Henderson

No.8 position ~10,000 minutes

Henderson, Keita and Thiago i'm predicting will take up over 50% of the minutes.

Elliott, Jones, Milner and AOC will take uo the majority of the remaining minutes. This will include a fair amount of minutes in the domestic cups, potential CL dead rubbers and last 15-30 min appearance in CL and PL when we want to rest legs.

There's obviously going to be times when injuries and unavailability mean we can't go with our main 3 midfielders. That wouldn't be great in certain games, namely City home and away, Chelsea home and away, Spurs home and away and probably United, West Ham and Arsenal away.

However, looking back at the games where we dropped points last season, it wasn't the games when we necessarily had 2 or more players from the 5th to 8th choices playing where we dropped points. In all but 2 of the games we always had 2 out Fabinho, Henderson and Thiago starting. The exceptions were Brighton at home where Keita and Henderson both started but I think Keita did go off injured.  The other exception was Spurs away when we started Morton, Keita and Milner due to Covid-19. It was a ragged performance but those were exceptional circumstances that affected team selection  that probably won't be replicated this season unless there is a massive injury crisis.

There's also a few examples where we started 2 out of Elliott, Jones, Keita, Milner and AOC in midfield. We won most of those games. The most notable of those being United away where we won 5-0. We also beat Atletico Madrid away 3-2 without Fabinho and Thiago playing.

I've said on here before that I would like a new midfielder. Probably to replace AOC. But I've also said it's difficult to do that swap and justify the the existing players how they will get minutes. Or conversely justify to a new signing, how they are going to get 2000 minutes if you still want to develop Jones and Elliott and give them game time.

Reality is that if we want a new midifieder then we'd need to sacrifice more than 1 of our current midfielders. That feels unlikely given how highly Klopp rates Jones and Elliott and how Klopp and the club pushed for Milner to extend.

That's my opinion but it would be good to hear a bit more detail on how you'd fit a new player in and where he'd get his minutes from and how that would affect others.
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Re: LIVERPOOL TRANSFER THREAD
« Reply #34882 on: August 4, 2022, 07:22:34 pm »
It’s not ‘unlikely’ it’s literally what we would have done had we succeeded in bringing in the CM we wanted.

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Re: LIVERPOOL TRANSFER THREAD
« Reply #34883 on: August 4, 2022, 07:43:02 pm »
This is all fair enough but feel like massive cop out to the questions I asked.


You say this and then you basically agreed with what I said in that there were a couple of games where a non-ideal midfield probably cost us the title.

Offline Jookie

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Re: LIVERPOOL TRANSFER THREAD
« Reply #34884 on: August 4, 2022, 07:57:31 pm »
It’s not ‘unlikely’ it’s literally what we would have done had we succeeded in bringing in the CM we wanted.

If we'd brought in a high value target. Tchouchameni and Bellingham type players we'd make room for.

Neither of them are coming. I'm guessing we view all other midfielders who are potentially available in a different bracket. Hence why we aren't willing to move on a Keita, Milner or Jones to bring them in.

Very big difference here and why referring back to Tchouameni as an example is disingenuous because the other current available options are not in that bracket. Otherwise we'd presumably go and buy them.
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Offline Jookie

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Re: LIVERPOOL TRANSFER THREAD
« Reply #34885 on: August 4, 2022, 08:11:08 pm »
You say this and then you basically agreed with what I said in that there were a couple of games where a non-ideal midfield probably cost us the title.

Not really.

If you want to go into every game of the season with your 1st choice midfielders playing then it's unrealistic. Even teams like City have a drop off from their best 3 or 4 players to those who occupy positions 5th, 6th and 7th in the list.

We dropped points in a number of games where 2 of Thiago, Fabinho and Henderson started. We dropped points in a pivotal game v Spurs when all of Thiago, Henderson and Fabinho started. If we'd won that game we'd have won the league.

The biggest issue for us at the start of the season, and where we improved massively in the 2nd half of the season, was our defensive shape. Inability to hold onto leads when winning. The midfield is part of that but not exclusively in my opinion. Improved midfield shape and better centre half play probably combined for better overall defensive shape. I also think the Diaz LHS and Mane as false 9 helped defensively compared with Jota as an out and out No.9 type striker pre-Xmas
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Offline Dave McCoy

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Re: LIVERPOOL TRANSFER THREAD
« Reply #34886 on: August 4, 2022, 09:25:11 pm »
Not really.

If you want to go into every game of the season with your 1st choice midfielders playing then it's unrealistic. Even teams like City have a drop off from their best 3 or 4 players to those who occupy positions 5th, 6th and 7th in the list.

We dropped points in a number of games where 2 of Thiago, Fabinho and Henderson started. We dropped points in a pivotal game v Spurs when all of Thiago, Henderson and Fabinho started. If we'd won that game we'd have won the league.

The biggest issue for us at the start of the season, and where we improved massively in the 2nd half of the season, was our defensive shape. Inability to hold onto leads when winning. The midfield is part of that but not exclusively in my opinion. Improved midfield shape and better centre half play probably combined for better overall defensive shape. I also think the Diaz LHS and Mane as false 9 helped defensively compared with Jota as an out and out No.9 type striker pre-Xmas

In my opinion outside of Thiago and Fabinho every other midfielder has tradeoffs that make the potential for dropping points more likely to varying degrees. Using one example of where we dropped points with Thiago and Fabinho both playing (which we dominated but didn't create good chances) doesn't make that not true.

You now want to go into midfield not even being anything to mention at all. That's fine if you want to disagree but that's quite a stretch.

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Re: LIVERPOOL TRANSFER THREAD
« Reply #34887 on: August 4, 2022, 09:35:17 pm »
I feel the call of the midfielder as well.

I've talked before about that feeling of 'the one extra player that we need to make things right'. I'm not sure whether it's an illusory feeling or rooted in some reality we can perceive without fully being able to articulate.

Right now it's a midfielder. Despite everything there's a feeling that that one new, robust midfelder would mean we are good to go in way we may never have been before.

But is that just because, for all our praise, we don't quite regard some of the youngsters as being ready yet?
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Offline Jookie

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Re: LIVERPOOL TRANSFER THREAD
« Reply #34888 on: August 4, 2022, 10:08:47 pm »

You now want to go into midfield not even being anything to mention at all. That's fine if you want to disagree but that's quite a stretch.

Point me to where I said that.
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Offline Dave McCoy

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Re: LIVERPOOL TRANSFER THREAD
« Reply #34889 on: August 4, 2022, 10:10:26 pm »
Point me to where I said that.

Your whole last paragraph? At this point I'd say you and I interacting is pretty pointless.

Offline Jookie

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Re: LIVERPOOL TRANSFER THREAD
« Reply #34890 on: August 4, 2022, 10:16:27 pm »
I feel the call of the midfielder as well.

I've talked before about that feeling of 'the one extra player that we need to make things right'. I'm not sure whether it's an illusory feeling or rooted in some reality we can perceive without fully being able to articulate.

Right now it's a midfielder. Despite everything there's a feeling that that one new, robust midfelder would mean we are good to go in way we may never have been before.

But is that just because, for all our praise, we don't quite regard some of the youngsters as being ready yet?

Like I've said, I'd like a new midfielder too. Even if that's someone to replace AOC. Someone who is more robust and has potential to be3rdto 5th choice by end of the season.

It's not that simple though. Or as simple as a lot of people are making out. Balancing minutes throughout 8 midfield options is difficult to manage and keep involved and engaged. Even more so when we are obviously looking to provide minutes for Elliott, Jones and even Carvalho to progress.

As I said earlier in the thread, the durability of certain midfielders can't be argued with. Namely Thiago and Keita in our main midfield options. Their durability issues are a major driver on why we carry 8 midfielders (albeit another in AOC with his own fitness issues).

The quality aspect can also be challenged. But we aren't moving on from our 4 main options any point soon. We know what to expect from Milner and AOC. I'd guess the lack of movement for a 5th or 6th choice midfielder to add depth is due to Klopp and the coaching team's belief in the development of Elliott and Jones. If we had midfield transfer targets that were available and we thought were nailed on to be in those Top 4 midfielders then I think we'd move for them. Outside of that I think we have more faith in Elliott/Jones than buying someone to ultimately take their minutes.
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Offline Jookie

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Re: LIVERPOOL TRANSFER THREAD
« Reply #34891 on: August 4, 2022, 10:19:40 pm »
IYou now want to go into midfield not even being anything to mention at all. That's fine if you want to disagree but that's quite a stretch.

Your whole last paragraph? At this point I'd say you and I interacting is pretty pointless.

The biggest issue for us at the start of the season, and where we improved massively in the 2nd half of the season, was our defensive shape. Inability to hold onto leads when winning. The midfield is part of that but not exclusively in my opinion. Improved midfield shape and better centre half play probably combined for better overall defensive shape. I also think the Diaz LHS and Mane as false 9 helped defensively compared with Jota as an out and out No.9 type striker pre-Xmas

I've mentioned midfield twice in why there was an issue and how it improved. Very different to me saying that midfield isn't important or an issue/solution.
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Re: LIVERPOOL TRANSFER THREAD
« Reply #34892 on: August 4, 2022, 10:26:20 pm »
I feel the call of the midfielder as well.

I've talked before about that feeling of 'the one extra player that we need to make things right'. I'm not sure whether it's an illusory feeling or rooted in some reality we can perceive without fully being able to articulate.

Right now it's a midfielder. Despite everything there's a feeling that that one new, robust midfielder would mean we are good to go in way we may never have been before.


I do feel the same. I think my issue is that the 5 players we have in waiting beyond the first team all have a particular issue which means that, for one reason or another, I wouldn't want them starting significant numbers of games. And with Fabinho and Thiago's injury records and Hendo running himself into the ground, we clearly need someone who can start a lot of games.

We're lucky to have five such quality players available to us. Naby is clearly an excellent footballer, but for one reason or another it hasn't quite clicked here. And whenever it seems like it might be about to click, there's an injury setback. Add that he's in the last year of his contract too and that creates a degree of tension. Ox on his day is brilliant but his days are fewer and further between and the poor guy is wracked with injuries. Milner is great of course but lacks pace and some of the creativity our other midfielders possess. Jones is still developing but there's a rawness to him. And Elliot all the more so.

I don't quite buy the argument that bringing in a player blocks a development path. Jones and Elliot are first team players training with a world class manager and a world class squad. If they're good enough, they'll play. But there's a pretty good chance that Keita, Milner and Ox could all leave next summer. Bellingham would clearly be a top class replacement for one, but if we're able to bring in someone now to replace one more of them (even if it were to mean loaning Ox out in January if needs be) then it seems a sensible move.

But of all the 'problems' to have it's a ridiculous one. If we didn't have to be at such a ridiculously, consistently high standard to overhaul City then it really wouldn't matter at all.
« Last Edit: August 4, 2022, 10:29:28 pm by JerseyKloppite »

Offline Chris~

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Re: LIVERPOOL TRANSFER THREAD
« Reply #34893 on: August 4, 2022, 10:38:59 pm »


The quality aspect can also be challenged. But we aren't moving on from our 4 main options any point soon. We know what to expect from Milner and AOC. I'd guess the lack of movement for a 5th or 6th choice midfielder to add depth is due to Klopp and the coaching team's belief in the development of Elliott and Jones. If we had midfield transfer targets that were available and we thought were nailed on to be in those Top 4 midfielders then I think we'd move for them. Outside of that I think we have more faith in Elliott/Jones than buying someone to ultimately take their minutes.
I guess it depends on how you define soon but it wouldn't surprise me if in two summers two of those 4 are gone and another is 4th/5th choice.

We saw how quickly we could revamp our attack in the last 6 months and I imagine it'll happen in midfield soon as well.


« Last Edit: August 4, 2022, 10:41:08 pm by Chris~ »

Offline Dave McCoy

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Re: LIVERPOOL TRANSFER THREAD
« Reply #34894 on: August 4, 2022, 10:45:32 pm »
I've mentioned midfield twice in why there was an issue and how it improved. Very different to me saying that midfield isn't important or an issue/solution.

You're talking about the team setup as a whole, not individual performances. The way you say it who was actually playing in midfield was almost immaterial to adding Diaz and moving Mane to the 9. Again that's just a huge stretch for me to where I coming from.

Offline Jookie

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Re: LIVERPOOL TRANSFER THREAD
« Reply #34895 on: August 4, 2022, 11:48:00 pm »
You're talking about the team setup as a whole, not individual performances. The way you say it who was actually playing in midfield was almost immaterial to adding Diaz and moving Mane to the 9. Again that's just a huge stretch for me to where I coming from.

You are inferring that from my post.

Defensive shape was an issue at times in the 1st half of the season. So was the ability to control games.

The midfield played a role in those issue but not exclusively. Equally improved midfield performance played a role in our improvement in the 2nd half of the season. It wasn’t the only factor but it was one of a few in my opinion. Part of the midfield improvement was about availability of certain players but not exclusively. A fair bit of it was about better cohesion and control through all parts of the team.

Midfield is hugely important and I’ll re-iterate I’d like to see a move there. But when a club and manager as smart as Liverpool and Klopp aren’t making a move for a new midfielder you’ve got to ask yourself ‘Why?’. That’s what I’ve done and put forward some potential reasons I can think of with a fraction of the knowledge and the ability the club have at their disposal.

The impression I get from some is that they think not buying a midfielder is a dereliction of duty or is highly likely to scupper our season. Something that Klopp is blind to or the club are parenting him from doing (& he’s said absolutely nothing publicly about it).

That’s where my questions stemmed from originally. What type of midfielder would you like to see targeted? Who would you sell? And how do you position them in the midfield hierarchy without putting others out too much and creating potential disharmony?
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Re: LIVERPOOL TRANSFER THREAD
« Reply #34896 on: August 5, 2022, 12:12:55 am »
I mean, it's pretty clear Liverpool need a new midfielder. They were trying to get Tchouameni for near £100m at the start of the summer, so all other arguments aside, Klopp clearly wanted another midfielder. Nunez coming in and altering the nature of the attack is interesting, and a clear replacement for Mane, but doesn't alter the fact that the no.1 target at the start of the summer was a hard tackling midfielder in the same vein as Fabinho.

That's quite likely because in defence LFC could absorb 2 injuries, even lengthy ones, since there is deep cover at LB, RB, GK and CB. Ditto up front where there are 5-6 options for 3 positions. But in the middle there is no replacement for Fabinho, or for Thiago. An injury to either greatly weakens the midfield, with players like Henderson not offering quite the same type of play. After those 3 in particular there is a considerable drop off in quality for that double pivot in front of the back 4. In terms of linking back to front Keita can offer an alternative to those 3, but is vastly inferior the deeper the role he plays. 

That's the issue for me. Midfield is the most complex and important position on the pitch. The squad can offer different types of players, but none are as good as the options presented by the first 4 choices (Fabinho, Thiago, Henderson and Keita) , while no one is a specialised or as important as Fabinho or Thiago. It may prove fine for the season, but like an unscratched itch, it's frustrating to see strength and depth all over the pitch, bar, arguably that midfield. Like an unfinished jigsaw, just one player would complete the finest Liverpool squad ever assembled and leave no doubts for the season ahead.
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Offline Dave McCoy

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Re: LIVERPOOL TRANSFER THREAD
« Reply #34897 on: August 5, 2022, 12:24:30 am »
You are inferring that from my post.

Defensive shape was an issue at times in the 1st half of the season. So was the ability to control games.

The midfield played a role in those issue but not exclusively. Equally improved midfield performance played a role in our improvement in the 2nd half of the season. It wasn’t the only factor but it was one of a few in my opinion. Part of the midfield improvement was about availability of certain players but not exclusively. A fair bit of it was about better cohesion and control through all parts of the team.

Midfield is hugely important and I’ll re-iterate I’d like to see a move there. But when a club and manager as smart as Liverpool and Klopp aren’t making a move for a new midfielder you’ve got to ask yourself ‘Why?’. That’s what I’ve done and put forward some potential reasons I can think of with a fraction of the knowledge and the ability the club have at their disposal.

The impression I get from some is that they think not buying a midfielder is a dereliction of duty or is highly likely to scupper our season. Something that Klopp is blind to or the club are parenting him from doing (& he’s said absolutely nothing publicly about it).

That’s where my questions stemmed from originally. What type of midfielder would you like to see targeted? Who would you sell? And how do you position them in the midfield hierarchy without putting others out too much and creating potential disharmony?

If I'm quoting you exactly I'm not inferring. You're either struggling to get your point across clearly or you're crazy.

Aside from that, it's pretty clear LFC are very much all about opportunity cost above all else. I very much doubt Elliott or Jones's feelings will matter one iota when we do eventually purchase a midfielder.

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Re: LIVERPOOL TRANSFER THREAD
« Reply #34898 on: August 5, 2022, 05:33:05 am »
Are we getting Luka Sucic, or not?

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Re: LIVERPOOL TRANSFER THREAD
« Reply #34899 on: August 5, 2022, 07:52:06 am »
I feel the call of the midfielder as well.

I've talked before about that feeling of 'the one extra player that we need to make things right'. I'm not sure whether it's an illusory feeling or rooted in some reality we can perceive without fully being able to articulate.

Right now it's a midfielder. Despite everything there's a feeling that that one new, robust midfelder would mean we are good to go in way we may never have been before.

But is that just because, for all our praise, we don't quite regard some of the youngsters as being ready yet?

I'm sure there's all sorts of reasons. Shiny new toy, wanting what you can't have, a sense that perfection/ completion always lies around the corner (and so the arrival of a new midfielder would probably just make us go, 'we need a new...'). That said, the biggest reason is Klopp wanted a new midfielder. Now he wants a very specific new midfielder, who we were beaten too, and most likely another, who isn't available this summer. But he's looking at our options in midfield and wanting to upgrade by spending a massive amount of money on someone. And when the armchair analysts look at midfield that makes sense. We have the numbers but at least 2 and probably 3 of our options are injury prone (Thiago, Ox and Keita), one is old (Milner), one is probably starting to decline (Henderson) and two are young and relatively unproven. Furthermore, not every midfielder has a natural backup. Henderson can do Fabinho's job and several players can do the RCM job, but it's not clear that anyone can do Thiago's job. Plus, irrespective of 'style' Thiago is, by quite some distance, the best 8 we have and the quality dips markedly once he's out. Then we have the athleticism question because this iteration of midfield is much slower and less physical than previous Klopp midfields. When you put together Klopp's undoubted desire for a couple of very specific midfielders with our clear gaps, it's no wonder folk would like a midfielder.

That said, it's helpful to remember the actual situation given the club's decisions. 1. We'd like a new midfielder. 2. The midfielder(s) we'd like aren't currently available. 3) We're willing to wait as a consequence. 4. We've set up the squad (Milner new contract, no real efforts to offload a senior midfielder) to cope with the absence of a new player.

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Re: LIVERPOOL TRANSFER THREAD
« Reply #34900 on: August 5, 2022, 07:55:34 am »
Grizz Khan has quoted Ivan Schwackoff on some interesting Bellingham news this morning #getready
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Re: LIVERPOOL TRANSFER THREAD
« Reply #34901 on: August 5, 2022, 08:17:43 am »
Grizz Khan has quoted Ivan Schwackoff on some interesting Bellingham news this morning #getready

Bullshitter quoting a bullshitter.

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Re: LIVERPOOL TRANSFER THREAD
« Reply #34902 on: August 5, 2022, 08:33:09 am »
Bullshitter quoting a bullshitter.



A bit harsh on El Lobo.

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Re: LIVERPOOL TRANSFER THREAD
« Reply #34903 on: August 5, 2022, 08:50:33 am »
I mean, it's pretty clear Liverpool need a new midfielder. They were trying to get Tchouameni for near £100m at the start of the summer, so all other arguments aside, Klopp clearly wanted another midfielder. Nunez coming in and altering the nature of the attack is interesting, and a clear replacement for Mane, but doesn't alter the fact that the no.1 target at the start of the summer was a hard tackling midfielder in the same vein as Fabinho.

That's quite likely because in defence LFC could absorb 2 injuries, even lengthy ones, since there is deep cover at LB, RB, GK and CB. Ditto up front where there are 5-6 options for 3 positions. But in the middle there is no replacement for Fabinho, or for Thiago. An injury to either greatly weakens the midfield, with players like Henderson not offering quite the same type of play. After those 3 in particular there is a considerable drop off in quality for that double pivot in front of the back 4. In terms of linking back to front Keita can offer an alternative to those 3, but is vastly inferior the deeper the role he plays. 

That's the issue for me. Midfield is the most complex and important position on the pitch. The squad can offer different types of players, but none are as good as the options presented by the first 4 choices (Fabinho, Thiago, Henderson and Keita) , while no one is a specialised or as important as Fabinho or Thiago. It may prove fine for the season, but like an unscratched itch, it's frustrating to see strength and depth all over the pitch, bar, arguably that midfield. Like an unfinished jigsaw, just one player would complete the finest Liverpool squad ever assembled and leave no doubts for the season ahead.

Klopp wanted a midfielder of the calibre of Tchouameni, not just a midfielder in general. If we had got Tchouameni, Milner might not have got a new contract and/or Ox may have been pushed out the door.

If Klopp absolutely wanted another midfielder, we would have signed a midfielder. But as we have done in the past, if the right target isn't available, we wait - and rightly so. It would just be silly to sign a midfielder now just for the sake of it, not only because they might not be of the required standard, but because it would take funds away from any potential Bellingham deal next season.
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Offline RedG13

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Re: LIVERPOOL TRANSFER THREAD
« Reply #34904 on: August 5, 2022, 08:58:20 am »
Klopp wanted a midfielder of the calibre of Tchouameni, not just a midfielder in general. If we had got Tchouameni, Milner might not have got a new contract and/or Ox may have been pushed out the door.

If Klopp absolutely wanted another midfielder, we would have signed a midfielder. But as we have done in the past, if the right target isn't available, we wait - and rightly so. It would just be silly to sign a midfielder now just for the sake of it, not only because they might not be of the required standard, but because it would take funds away from any potential Bellingham deal next season.
Milner was getting offered a new contract no matter what. He is valued as a role player and for his leadership.

Offline Jookie

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Re: LIVERPOOL TRANSFER THREAD
« Reply #34905 on: August 5, 2022, 09:09:42 am »
You're either struggling to get your point across clearly or you're crazy.

There is another potential reason. In my opinion you are coming across as someone who thinks we are desperate for midfield re-enforcements. I trying, maybe not very well, to make points why he haven’t made any moves after missing out on Tchouameni. We’d buy the right midfielder if they were available. But what we’ve seen since is that we won’t buy it that top tier target isn’t available. I think there’s reason for that and tried to explain them. You don’t seem to want to hear or understand those potential reasons. Admittedly I’ll apologies though if I’m not being clear enough though.

I’ll leave it there since I either can’t make point clearly enough to you or you aren’t grasping the point I’m trying to make. For clarity, I’ll say again that I’d buy a midfielder this summer if possible. I think that’s  1 thing we can agree on.

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Re: LIVERPOOL TRANSFER THREAD
« Reply #34906 on: August 5, 2022, 09:16:49 am »
We aren't walking through the storm now - we are the storm.

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Re: LIVERPOOL TRANSFER THREAD
« Reply #34907 on: August 5, 2022, 09:46:15 am »
Klopp wanted a midfielder of the calibre of Tchouameni, not just a midfielder in general. If we had got Tchouameni, Milner might not have got a new contract and/or Ox may have been pushed out the door.

If Klopp absolutely wanted another midfielder, we would have signed a midfielder. But as we have done in the past, if the right target isn't available, we wait - and rightly so. It would just be silly to sign a midfielder now just for the sake of it, not only because they might not be of the required standard, but because it would take funds away from any potential Bellingham deal next season.

Those are two separate issues. Firstly, LFC want another midfielder, we know this because it was widely reported they wanted to spend a £100m at the start of the summer to get one. So, we can put that argument to bed.

The second question is whether a good enough midfielder is available at the moment. I wasn't even addressing that issue, I was merely pointing out that Liverpool do need a new midfielder , and why (the reasoning being we lack cover for specialised positions).

As to the second issue, my view on that is that I find it fanciful that there are only two midfielders worth bringing in to the club (Tchoumanei and Bellingham), particualrly since LFC have made a name for themselves over the last number of years in taking relatively unknown players and turning them into household names. But that has nothing to do with my original post. 
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Re: LIVERPOOL TRANSFER THREAD
« Reply #34908 on: August 5, 2022, 09:52:41 am »
And me.  :(

And Amir then  8)

The new midfielder stuff is all a bit tired now. We do obviously want a new one, but we also obviously are happy to go into the season with what we have. We know the moneys there, we made the bid (and lets not hear some daft clinical theory like we missed out on a CM and then used the funds for a striker) for Tchouameni and it seems clear that we're now waiting for our next 'target'. If that is Bellingham I'd expect we've had a fair bit of encouragement from both him and Dortmund that we can get him next summer without too much fuss/competition. But Fabinho, Thiago, Henderson, Keita, Jones, Elliott, Milner, Carvalho and Oxlade-Chamberlain is still a better midfield line-up than anyone else in this league, so its certainly not like we're taking some big risk or anything.
If he's being asked to head the ball too frequently - which isn't exactly his specialty - it could affect his ear and cause an infection. Especially if the ball hits him on the ear directly.

Offline rafathegaffa83

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Re: LIVERPOOL TRANSFER THREAD
« Reply #34909 on: August 5, 2022, 10:16:39 am »
With Konate injured for a vague length of time, I wonder if we hold on to Nat Phillips now as that has gone quiet

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Re: LIVERPOOL TRANSFER THREAD
« Reply #34910 on: August 5, 2022, 10:24:33 am »
With Konate injured for a vague length of time, I wonder if we hold on to Nat Phillips now as that has gone quiet

Konate injured? How long for do you know?
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Re: LIVERPOOL TRANSFER THREAD
« Reply #34911 on: August 5, 2022, 10:39:48 am »
Konate injured? How long for do you know?

Rumour is 4-6 weeks but nothing confirmed by anyone credible yet. Maybe Klopp will let us know via his press conference today.

Offline JackWard33

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Re: LIVERPOOL TRANSFER THREAD
« Reply #34912 on: August 5, 2022, 10:42:32 am »
I do feel the same. I think my issue is that the 5 players we have in waiting beyond the first team all have a particular issue which means that, for one reason or another, I wouldn't want them starting significant numbers of games. And with Fabinho and Thiago's injury records and Hendo running himself into the ground, we clearly need someone who can start a lot of games.

We're lucky to have five such quality players available to us. Naby is clearly an excellent footballer, but for one reason or another it hasn't quite clicked here. And whenever it seems like it might be about to click, there's an injury setback. Add that he's in the last year of his contract too and that creates a degree of tension. Ox on his day is brilliant but his days are fewer and further between and the poor guy is wracked with injuries. Milner is great of course but lacks pace and some of the creativity our other midfielders possess. Jones is still developing but there's a rawness to him. And Elliot all the more so.

I don't quite buy the argument that bringing in a player blocks a development path. Jones and Elliot are first team players training with a world class manager and a world class squad. If they're good enough, they'll play. But there's a pretty good chance that Keita, Milner and Ox could all leave next summer. Bellingham would clearly be a top class replacement for one, but if we're able to bring in someone now to replace one more of them (even if it were to mean loaning Ox out in January if needs be) then it seems a sensible move.

But of all the 'problems' to have it's a ridiculous one. If we didn't have to be at such a ridiculously, consistently high standard to overhaul City then it really wouldn't matter at all.


Yeah good summary of the situation and I agree on the 'block the development' point - its almost always been mostly a red herring at big clubs, there will be the odd example but if you're good enough you make it
Our situation is pretty perverse in that it's purely a 'what do we need to win the league' question
If we were competing in a vacuum then you could argue for not making midfield moves this summer but we're not, we're in a two horse race where our rival will almost certainly hit 90 points. Midfield is the one area we haven't addressed in the last couple of years and the one where City are currently stronger than us.
I haven't forensically checked but from memory all our slip ups last season against non top 4 clubs were all with a weakened midfield (dont think Thiago played in any of them?)

It's tough because buying the level of quality required is really difficult, and obviously we tried with Tchouameni - but we are going into another year where you feel like if we get 38 games of Thiago and Fabinho we'll win it but by the same token we're a couple of injuries away from starting Milner which probably won't be quite enough


« Last Edit: August 5, 2022, 10:45:02 am by JackWard33 »

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Re: LIVERPOOL TRANSFER THREAD
« Reply #34913 on: August 5, 2022, 10:44:11 am »
With Konate injured for a vague length of time, I wonder if we hold on to Nat Phillips now as that has gone quiet

It is a set back but Gomez looks like he is back to his best, so we should be fine for a month or two with him, Matip and Virg

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Re: LIVERPOOL TRANSFER THREAD
« Reply #34914 on: August 5, 2022, 10:46:52 am »
As to the second issue, my view on that is that I find it fanciful that there are only two midfielders worth bringing in to the club (Tchoumanei and Bellingham), particualrly since LFC have made a name for themselves over the last number of years in taking relatively unknown players and turning them into household names. But that has nothing to do with my original post.

No one has said there are only two midfielders worth bringing into the Club. But if the Club and the manager have identified one player that they absolutely want, but can't get right now, why would you then bring in somebody else in the same position, taking space and funding away from the one you actually want and could get in the relatively near future? How far down the list do you go if your next choice midfielder also isn't available right now?
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Offline KurtVerbose

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Re: LIVERPOOL TRANSFER THREAD
« Reply #34915 on: August 5, 2022, 11:38:52 am »
With Konate injured for a vague length of time, I wonder if we hold on to Nat Phillips now as that has gone quiet

Jürgen just confirmed this in his press conference.
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Re: LIVERPOOL TRANSFER THREAD
« Reply #34916 on: August 5, 2022, 11:44:38 am »
No one has said there are only two midfielders worth bringing into the Club. But if the Club and the manager have identified one player that they absolutely want, but can't get right now, why would you then bring in somebody else in the same position, taking space and funding away from the one you actually want and could get in the relatively near future? How far down the list do you go if your next choice midfielder also isn't available right now?
If there is someone better than the existing options that you can bring in, you should, because even in a year's time you would expect to see reduced playing time for Henderson and Thiago due to their age, while Chamberlain probably has no future at the club. There is room for two new midfielders over the next couple of transfer windows, including this one.
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Re: LIVERPOOL TRANSFER THREAD
« Reply #34917 on: August 5, 2022, 11:56:32 am »
Carl Markham@carlmarkham.52m
JK on transfers “We have too many injuries, yes, but at the moment nothing has changed.

Carl Markham@carlmarkham·49m
Replying to @carlmarkham
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Re: LIVERPOOL TRANSFER THREAD
« Reply #34918 on: August 5, 2022, 12:42:05 pm »
The injuries are 3-4 week things it seems with Ibou and Curtis. Ox obviously longer term but was never likely to be playing much. We might hold onto Nat until the end of the window just in case of emergency but I dont see that a couple of short term injuries is going to change our activity, it never has before.
If he's being asked to head the ball too frequently - which isn't exactly his specialty - it could affect his ear and cause an infection. Especially if the ball hits him on the ear directly.

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Re: LIVERPOOL TRANSFER THREAD
« Reply #34919 on: August 5, 2022, 12:48:52 pm »
Yeah and when they do this (not bolstering depth) it tends to be because they've a specific target in mind, doesn't it?
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