Topic: A Song of Ice and Fire general thread: BOOK AND SHOW spoilers galore

[Redcap]

For general discussion of the show and books.

[Niru Red4ever]

Do we still have to post in spoiler tags? If we do, then I would like to open yet another thread where only people who have read all books and watched the latest episode should come in.

Personally, didn't see the problem in the TV thread - people were posting book comparison spoilers with proper titles; how hard is it to avoid that?

[JoeCole]

Season 1's adaption was almost page by page. I loved the Khal Drogo fight scene they put in the show though, I think the viewers really did need to see what a badass he actually was.

Season 2, I've been mixed on... Didn't like Daenerys' boring story in ACOK, but haven't been a fan of the stuff they've made up for her this season either. I usually find myself waiting for her scenes to end just so we can get to the important stuff. Looking forward to the House of the Undying though.

I don't think they've done Jon's story much justice this season either, it was probably my second favourite POV after Arya's, but it has dragged out a bit. Somehow I don't think book Jon would have been stupid enough to chase Ygritte for miles in Wildling territory either. Halfhand was about ten times better in the books aswell.

But again, I've liked a few things they've added. Big fan of Robb, the more of him in the show the better, even if they have changed some big points on that whole Jeyne/Talisa front. That scene with The Hound and Bronn in Blackwater was excellent. Renly was far more interesting in his short stint on the show than I found him in the books, same with Magaery. And Stannis... I really couldn't make my mind up on him in the books, but I love show Stannis, he is one of my favourite characters.

[Rusty Oysterburger]

This is great, I hate writing and reading conversations covered in spoiler tags.

I reckon Cersei and Bronn have benefitted most from the tv adaptation. Bronn I barely remember from the books and don't really care about, but in the show he's something else. So pleased they beefed his character up for this season and his chemistry with Tyrion is one of the best things about the show.

I remember Jon's story from book two aimlessly meandering a bit and it seems worse in the show which is a shame, especially considering how well they've portrayed Ygritte and North of the Wall. Everything else in his story has been a bit off for me. I'm hoping they do go with him offing Halfhand next week, it'll be a great moment and for him.

Next season Jon's story is a lot more interesting. I can't remember the chronology exactly but could the Battle of the Wall be season three's finale, maybe along with the Red Wedding?

[Redcap]

I had a quick skim through the last few chapters of ASoS book 1 (which is almost exactly half of the whole book) and I have to say for most of the characters it would be a quite underwhelming conclusion to the season.

Jon's just scaled the wall and is involved in that skirmish with Bran and Summer close by.

Arya and the Hound are with the Brotherhood.

Jaime and Brienne are at Harrenhal with Roose Bolton.

Robb and Cat are at Riverrun and about to head to The Twins.

Tyrion's just met up with the Dornish retinue (including the Red Viper)

Davos and Stannis are back at Dragonstone debating whether or not to sacrifice Edric Storm for the favour of the Red God.

etc.

And to be honest it's a bit like that for most of that (half) book. The one thing which is climatic is Dany sacking Astapor, but it's one climatic event in a sea of rather unexciting ones.

Since the show runners have said that they want to do the Red Wedding in season 4, I'm guessing they will toy with some timelines and possibly pad some parts quite significantly with stuff from later on.

For instance I wouldn't be surprised if they just completely forgot about Sam for the first half of the season and then ended it with The Battle of the Fist of the First Men and the mutiny at Craster's Keep.

I also think Jon might get a bit more time with the wildlings. I think his arc in season 3 might end with him scaling the wall (as an episode 9 I suppose). His scaling of the wall is only chapter 4 though, so I think they would have to pad his story with a good deal more Ygritte and probably Mance Rayder, neither of which I'd mind, particularly since they will be important in season 5/6 and need some adequate screen time.

For Robb and Cat, they're going to have to actually introduce the Tully family, which we've seen none of so far other than Lysa.

Lastly I think we're going to seem some glimpses of Dorne and a bit more of the Iron Islands, which weren't really in A Storm of Swords.

It will definitely be a challenging season for them to plot, whatever they end up deciding. But on the plus side 20 episodes would probably mean they'd be able to devote a lot more time to the kind of plot details they neglected this season.

[Red James]

The first series was faithful to the books and for the most part was a straight adaption with a few needless things added in.  For example there was an incredible amount of sex which I thought wasn't needed. Plus I don't know what the point of the Ross character I think her names was? That whore Theon was seeing. Overall it was good and while it did miss some minor things out of the books, it is understandable as it is difficult to add everything in the book into a 10 hour series.

Series 2 was less faithful but I welcomed some of the changes. Keeps book readers on their toes so they won't know exactly what's coming. So long as they stay true to the overall story and include the major points in the plot, I don't mind some of the minor changes like Dany having her Dragon's stolen. The problem with Dany's chapters in ACOK is that nothing happens. So it was necessary they gave her something to do.

Next season we'll see the Tyrell's take a more prominant role which should be good and the Lannisters will get a true rival in their political scheming.

[Malaysian Kopite]

Should I read the books 1st or should I watch the series?

[Djimis Telescopic Leg]

Since the show runners have said that they want to do the Red Wedding in season 4, I'm guessing they will toy with some timelines and possibly pad some parts quite significantly with stuff from later on.

Is this true? Certainly a good idea: if they make the Red Wedding the season 3 finale I can see the show losing a lot of non-book readers for season 4. However they have already moved a lot of Robb/Catelyn's story forward, so as the RW occurs around 5/8ths of the way through Swords it would be a natural finale. Or possibly earlier: between now and the RW all Robb and Catelyn have to do is marry Jeyne/Talisa (still expecting her to be revealed as Jeyne next episode) which I can see being the final scene of season 2, fall out with the Freys/Karstarks, hang out at Riverrun and introduce Edmure, broker the Edmure/Frey match, and get to The Twins. Going to need a lot of fleshing out if we're not seeing the RW till season 4/end of season 3.

Like Redcap I'm struggling to find anything else in the middle of Swords that would make a good season 3 conclusion. Only other thing I can think of is moving the Battle Of Castle Black forward and having the last scene being Ygritte dying in Jon's arms. Might work; still plenty of stuff happening there afterwards to put into season 4.

[Niru Red4ever]

They will definitely play with the timelines; at the very least I expect both Robb and Joffrey getting bumped off in the same season (Joff's being the sweetener to keep audiences happy).

What do people reckon would be there in the last episode of this series? I expect another brilliant visual with the House of Undying burned down. Also, Halhand's demise and Jon's apparent side switching. Winterfell's demise seems to be a bit far away; but like the books Bran's thoughts while looking back at Winterfell would have been a fitting end.

[Red James]

Should I read the books 1st or should I watch the series?

Book will take awhile depending on how fast a reader you are. There are slight differences but really it's up to you.

[Red James]

They will definitely play with the timelines; at the very least I expect both Robb and Joffrey getting bumped off in the same season (Joff's being the sweetener to keep audiences happy).

What do people reckon would be there in the last episode of this series? I expect another brilliant visual with the House of Undying burned down. Also, Halhand's demise and Jon's apparent side switching. Winterfell's demise seems to be a bit far away; but like the books Bran's thoughts while looking back at Winterfell would have been a fitting end.

I'd expect Roose Bolton's bastard to turn up sack Winterfell and end with a cliffhanger of Theon's apparant death.

[Redcap]

Should I read the books 1st or should I watch the series?

Watch the first 2 seasons. Then you'll want to read the books, and the series will forever be lessened in your eyes because you'll always be comparing the two and not quite getting the the same enjoyment.

Having said that if you decide to wait until you've seen every episode you probably won't be reading the books for another 8 years.

I can see season 3 being quite dull really. There's not a whole lot going on for many of the characters. It's a very Arya heavy book with a lot of wandering around the Riverlands, which I found quite dull until she met the Hound.

There's going to be a lot of exposition/fleshing out on a lot of new characters again. The Brotherhood, hopefully the Bloody Mummers (would like to see the scene where Hoat gets fed to a bear), the Tullies, the Dornish characters, the Tyrells.

I think it might end up being a bit of a slow burner that will set up an epic season 4, much the way AFfC and ADwD are setting up The Winds of Winter.

[Rusty Oysterburger]

I really need to re-read these, I'm getting a lot of stuff mixed up with the chronologies, I had it in my head the attack on the fist was book two. Probably because I read all five books in one go and my copy of ASoS wasn't split in two.

The producers have said as they go on the differences between the book and show will increase. I think they'll want a big event to end season three so they'll have to move something around as the choices you've highlighted aren't that spectacular.


Just been reading this overview of book 3 and there really isn't that much for Robb and Cat to do before the wedding, no more than ten episodes worth if they spend a while introducing the Tully's and some more stuff with Tulisa/Jeyne. It would be the perfect season finale for me, I can't wait for the uproar it will cause, heh. Leave everyone stewing for a year and then kill Joffery off at the beginning of season four to get them back onside.




Also, I demand that Oded Fehr should play the Red Viper next season

[Redcap]

I'd expect Roose Bolton's bastard to turn up sack Winterfell and end with a cliffhanger of Theon's apparant death.

Agreed. They've been building towards Theon's fall all season and something will be missing if they don't do it now.

[Djimis Telescopic Leg]

I'd expect Roose Bolton's bastard to turn up sack Winterfell and end with a cliffhanger of Theon's apparant death.

Ramsay is being cast for season 3. Might see him with his face covered by a helmet next episode I suppose.

What I do expect to see in the last episode of season 2:
Joffrey get engaged to Margaery
Ser Loras into the Kingsguard
Robb marries Jeyne/Talisa
Jon kills the Halfhand
Daenerys goes into and burns down the House of the Undying
Arya gets the coin off Jaqen
Sack of Winterfell? Part of me thinks they'll keep the sack itself back to next season to give Ramsay a dramatic entrance
Brienne fighting with Jaime and their capture? Bit early compared to the books, but looks like they're going at each other in the trailer


Season 3 casting: Henry Ian Cusick who played Desmond on Lost is perfect for Mance Rayder:

[Redcap]

Agh.. don't remember where it was I saw it. Since I can't find it I guess it's probably speculation. Maybe I subconsciously want to push back Robb's demise as far as possible?

As Niru said earlier I would be a little bit surprised if they did the RW and Joffrey's wedding in different seasons, so I guess we might see both?

But then what would that leave season 4? The most climatic events, other than Tyrion's trial and escape and Jon's swearing in as Lord Commander would already be done.

[Rusty Oysterburger]

I'm actually dreading Dany's story from now until the end of book/season five. The Meereen court is some tedious bollocks for the majority of it.

[Redcap]

Actually it seems the RW will be season 3. My apologies.

Benoiff:From the beginning we’d always prayed we’d get to season three at least because, you know, two of our favorite scenes from the entire saga are in season three.

Of course. The Scene Which Shall Not Be Named.
Benioff: The scene that we cannot mention. I just remember reading the book before we’d even written the pilot and thinking, “Oh, my God, we’ve got to get this. We’ve got to get this show to happen because if we can make this scene work, it’s gonna be one of the greatest things ever on television or film.”

I wonder what the other scene is they're talking about. I hope it's Brienne vs. the bear. But more likely it's Joffrey's wedding.

[JoeCole]

Noooo, they must push it back to season 4

[Redcap]

Noooo, they must push it back to season 4

I hope they show the scene (described by others in the book) where they sew Greywind's head onto Robb's torso. Reckon that'd make a rather amazing avatar.

Something like this.

[JoeCole]

Did Dany not see a vision of that when she visited the House of Undying in the books? We could see it as early as next week if she did.

[Djimis Telescopic Leg]

Makes sense. GRRM is to write season 3 episode 7, currently titled Autumn Storms. As he wrote Blackwater, this season's big event, there's a fair chance of that being the RW episode. Sets it up for Joffrey's wedding/death to occur before the end of season 3. Unless the scenes they're talking about are Daenerys sacking Astapor and Vargo Hoat trying to say sapphires.

On a shorter-term speculation note, I would love it if "Arstan Whitebeard" showed up next episode as he does in ACOK.

[Redcap]

Makes sense. GRRM is to write season 3 episode 7, currently titled Autumn Storms. As he wrote Blackwater, this season's big event, there's a fair chance of that being the RW episode. Sets it up for Joffrey's wedding/death to occur before the end of ]season 3. Unless the scenes they're talking about are Daenerys sacking Astapor and Vargo Hoat trying to say sapphires.

On a shorter-term speculation note, I would love it if "Arstan Whitebeard" showed up next episode as he does in ACOK.

Somehow I found that incredibly funny.

If they ended the season with Joffrey's wedding I can see a good chunk of AFfC/ADwD being in S4.

Did Dany not see a vision of that when she visited the House of Undying in the books? We could see it as early as next week if she did.

Yeah she did. I'd be surprised to see it but it'd be absolutely amazing if it's there. They've so far quite underplayed the prophecies in the show though.

[Niru Red4ever]

Wonder how will they split up Bran and Rickon - there are not enough elders to go around. Maybe they will stick together and later the Reeds will show up.

Luwin has been quite a likeable character and I imagine his death will cause a lot of grief too - more than other relatively minor characters.

[Redcap]

Luwin has been quite a likeable character and I imagine his death will cause a lot of grief too - more than other relatively minor characters.

Maybe he'll live and take Rickon

[Niru Red4ever]

Maybe he'll live and take Rickon

I thought about that too; but somehow don't see it happening. We may have to wait till next season to find out.

[Rusty Oysterburger]

Does anyone know if the Reed kids are going to be in it next year? If they don't it might mean that Martin has told the show runners about their story and maybe they aren't that important?

What they've brought to the books so far could just as easily be transferred to Osha's character I think. Luwin (or anyone really) could survive and take Rickon away while Osha could take Hodor and Bran up to the Wall. Makes sense using her seeing as she is Wilding and will know about Warg's etc.

[Rusty Oysterburger]

On a shorter-term speculation note, I would love it if "Arstan Whitebeard" showed up next episode as he does in ACOK.

I was wondering how they'll do that, obviously we'll know who he is straight away, barring an amazing fake beard disguise or something, something Martin could hide from us for a while.

Can't wait to see Strong Belwas as well

[JoeCole]

Looking forward to seeing who they cast for Mance, Edmure, Brynden, and Beric.

Gotta echo what was said on the previous page... Henry Ian Cusick for Mance please.

[Rusty Oysterburger]

No Ramsey!

[vagabond]

EW.com has a scoop on new season 3 characters. Here's the list (which is not final!):

– Mance Rayder
– Daario Naharis
– Jojen Reed
– Meera Reed
– Edmure Tully
– Ser Brynden Tully (The Blackfish)
– Lady Selyse Florent
– Shireen Baratheon
– Olenna Redwyne (The Queen of Thorns)
– Beric Dondarrion
– Thoros of Myr
– Tormund Giantsbane

Reeds! Yes! Jojen is one of my favorite characters and I'm glad to see him make an appearance.

In terms of the OP, I think I've enjoyed the fact that Daenerys' petulance didn't have to be tolerated for long this season, and I really hope they streamline her story straight to Mereen from here.

[Djimis Telescopic Leg]

I was wondering how they'll do that, obviously we'll know who he is straight away, barring an amazing fake beard disguise or something, something Martin could hide from us for a while.

Can't wait to see Strong Belwas as well

I find the idea of Jorah being unable to recognise what's clearly Ser Barristan in a fake beard absolutely hilarious. Bet Strong Belwas gets cut.

EW.com has a scoop on new season 3 characters. Here's the list (which is not final!):

<snip>

Delighted with that. Thought the Reeds, the Blackfish, Olenna and Thoros would all get cut. Fucking wonderful news.

According to Benioff there's a few others (here's the article: http://insidetv.ew.com/2012/05/29/game-of-throne-season-3-cast/) that need to be cast, so I'm not giving up hope of seeing Ramsay in season 3. Especially as one of the casting breakdowns apparently included "male 20-30, but weird and extreme looking".

[vagabond]

Well I would be surprised to not see Ramsay now that we've heard mention of him twice from Roose.

[Buzz Killington]

Did Dany not see a vision of that when she visited the House of Undying in the books? We could see it as early as next week if she did.

Yep but I don't think they'll show that, it'd be too obvious. They might just play 'The Rains of Castamere' instead.

[Red James]

EW.com has a scoop on new season 3 characters. Here's the list (which is not final!):


– Olenna Redwyne (The Queen of Thorns)

YES. Hope we'll see Left and Right as well. Also wonder who Mace Tyrell will be.

[Rusty Oysterburger]

I find the idea of Jorah being unable to recognise what's clearly Ser Barristan in a fake beard absolutely hilarious. Bet Strong Belwas gets cut.
Delighted with that. Thought the Reeds, the Blackfish, Olenna and Thoros would all get cut. Fucking wonderful news.

According to Benioff there's a few others (here's the article: http://insidetv.ew.com/2012/05/29/game-of-throne-season-3-cast/) that need to be cast, so I'm not giving up hope of seeing Ramsay in season 3. Especially as one of the casting breakdowns apparently included "male 20-30, but weird and extreme looking".

"erm, who is this Barristan Selmy you speak of?" *strokes luxuriant beard*

Yep, that defo sounds like Ramsay. I do wonder why they are so reluctant to name him though, not like it would be a surprise. Unless Reek is still going to be introduced somehow...

There are a lot of fun/cool characters who should liven things up a bit - Dario, Queen of Thorns, Thoros. Looking forward to see who gets cast for them.

The Red Viper has got to be there as well

[Redcap]

Those are some great characters. I'm really looking forward to seeing a lot of them. Delighted that the Reeds somehow made the cut in the end, although I suppose it's easy to explain with all of Jojen's green dreams and whatnot. Also very happy that the Blackfish will finally make his entrance. Tormund and Shireen too.

Ramsay will definitely be there since he's already being mentioned as going to Winterfell. I'm more concerned about the Bloody Mummers being written out. Vargo Hoat was a fun character (although he could be the male 20-30 who's extremely weird looking). They probably just didn't mention him in this article since it's already been assumed that people will expect his appearance having already been mentioned off screen.

Not sure if I'm happy or not that Strong Belwas might be cut. I found him quite fun as comic relief but I can see how fleshing him out would possibly waste valuable time for other characters. They're obviously trying to keep as tight a ship as possible on Dany's end by cutting her crew down left, right and centre by killing off several characters already. She still definitely has at least Dario and Barristan Selmy to come, and then there's possibly Brown Ben Plumm, Missendei and those guys in Meereen whose names I can't even remember.

Judi Dench for the Queen of Thorns?

[Djimis Telescopic Leg]

Fear not, Vargo Hoat is being cast: http://winteriscoming.net/2012/05/casting-for-vargo-hoat-is-in-progress

Judi Dench for the Queen of Thorns?

Maggie Smith

[Rusty Oysterburger]

Fear not, Vargo Hoat is being cast: http://winteriscoming.net/2012/05/casting-for-vargo-hoat-is-in-progress
Maggie Smith

Exactly who I had in mind, she'd be very good portraying her sly wit. Really can't wait for her scenes with Sansa next season, an area where I hope they'll invent more scenes

[Red Viper]

I'm just near the end of book 2 and just gone past the chapter with Catelyn and Jaime's confrontation and noticed that it still hasn't been made clear who sent the assassin with the valyrian steel dagger to kill Bran.

Jaime denied it and had no reason to lie and he said if Cersei had done it he would have known. Do we ever find out who actually sent the assassin then? In the show I just assumed that it was Jaime or Cersei, but now he's denied it I've realised that it's not yet been explained in the books or the show.

Do we ever find out who sent the assassin then or have I missed something? If we do find out then I don't want to know who it is and ruin it. If someone could PM so I don't have to read through this thread and risk seeing spoilers would be much appreciated. Ta.

EDIT: Cheers Ritari and vagabond.