Topic: Lionel Messi

[oojason]

^ The run for the goal too - from an overhead cam...

https://twitter.com/msceducation/status/1011710011763056641

and then the touches...

https://imgur.com/gallery/Ak2WWBz

and then...

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/RWgJ4KKn1vM" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/RWgJ4KKn1vM</a>

[JayNY]

That's brilliant, thanks for that mate - and for the million others you put up here!

[Xabi Gerrard]

I’ve slated him in the past for going into his shell in the highest pressure games (i.e the WC knockouts for Argentina). Although it wasn’t a knockout game yesterday it was a must win and he was excellent in the first half and topped it off with a brilliant goal, so fair play to the lad, he turned up.

Any idea why he was substituted at half time though? Hope he’s not injured

[deFacto please, you bastards]

Now all of a sudden WC knockout games are the only highest pressure games? Forget about the Champions League finals he's scored in and helped his side win

[Xabi Gerrard]

Now all of a sudden WC knockout games are the only highest pressure games? Forget about the Champions League finals he's scored in and helped his side win

All of a sudden? Been saying it for years mate!

If you’re not from an area that hates/is indifferent to the nation that represents you in football (I.e Merseyside, Catalonia, Basque Country, Kurdistan, etc), then yes, I think the greatest pressure a footballer can face is the knockouts of the World Cup. Especially if you’re a proud Argentine like Messi..

(If you’re confused, for clarification this doesn’t mean there aren’t also other types of high pressure games, such as late stage CL games, where incidentally his goals/game ratio halves compared to league games).

[deFacto please, you bastards]

All of a sudden? Been saying it for years mate!

If you’re not from an area that hates/is indifferent to the nation that represents you in football (I.e Merseyside, Catalonia, Basque Country, Kurdistan, etc), then yes, I think the greatest pressure a footballer can face is the knockouts of the World Cup. Especially if you’re a proud Argentine like Messi..

(If you’re confused, for clarification this doesn’t mean there aren’t also other types of high pressure games, such as late stage CL games, where incidentally his goals/game ratio halves compared to league games).

To me the highest level of football is Champions League football. And he's scored in two Champions League finals and helped his side win a European trophy.

So no I can't agree with your sentiment at all.

[Xxavi]

To me the highest level of football is Champions League football. And he's scored in two Champions League finals and helped his side win a European trophy.

So no I can't agree with your sentiment at all.

Plus no single player can win matches on his own CONSISTENTLY. Messi has done that for Argentina and Barca sometimes, but its lunacy to expect to turn up dysfunctional every game and expect Messi to do it on his own.

I wrote this many times, Maradona wouldn't have won anything if his team was conceding silly goals every game. One guy cannot be everywhere.

[Xabi Gerrard]

To me the highest level of football is Champions League football. And he's scored in two Champions League finals and helped his side win a European trophy.

So no I can't agree with your sentiment at all.

In terms of technical ability, I agree, late stage CL is "the highest level".

But as I wrote, I'm talking about highest pressure matches. And if you love your country, like Messi does, nothing comes close to the World Cup knockouts. Front pages and back pages entirely dominated by the tournament. Growing up his friends and family members who weren't into football would have become obsessed for a few weeks every summer. Him and his entire nation would have been consumed by it. It's the kind of pressure that Mertesacker described like this;

"Of course, I was also disappointed when we lost to Italy and were out of the tournament in the semifinal, but more than anything, I was relieved," he says. "I can still remember it as if it were yesterday. All I thought was: It's over, it's over. It's finally over."

He says he wouldn't have been able to handle another match at the time, and it wasn't because of his heel. "I got eaten up by the pressure," he says. "This constant horror scenario of making a mistake that would lead to a goal." He stays silent for a moment. "You also have the fear during other games; you're constantly looking at the scoreboard and counting the minutes. But at the World Cup, that was inhuman."


I don't think anyone can seriously say with a straight face that a proud Argentine like Messi is under as much pressure in any CL match compared to a WC knockout game.

All about opinions though, eh? Fair enough if you think there's more pressure on him in CL games for Barca.

[FlashGordon]

Thought the word on the street was that he felt more like a Catalan than Argentine hence why the Argentinian public prefer Maradona?

[Xabi Gerrard]

I wrote this many times, Maradona wouldn't have won anything if his team was conceding silly goals every game. One guy cannot be everywhere.

It's not even about winning the WC, it's about playing like the best player in the world in the highest pressure games. Baggio didn't win in 94 but he looked like the best player in the world that tournament (once McGrath let him out of his pocket). Ditto ZZ in '06. No one could begrudge Messi not winning the WC if he was constantly putting in performances on the biggest stage like he did in the 1st half yesterday. He's not done that before in a WC knockout. Here's hoping he does it against France though.

[Xabi Gerrard]

Thought the word on the street was that he felt more like a Catalan than Argentine hence why the Argentinian public prefer Maradona?

I know the Argentinians sometimes disparagingly call him "the Catalan" (usually after a quiet game for them) but from all I've ever read about him he loves Argentina more.

It's no real surprise that the Argentinian public prefer Maradona - he did deliver them a World Cup after all. Plus he majorly fucked over England which gets massive brownie points.

[FlashGordon]

I know the Argentinians sometimes disparagingly call him "the Catalan" (usually after a quiet game for them) but from all I've ever read about him he loves Argentina more.

It's no real surprise that the Argentinian public prefer Maradona - he did deliver them a World Cup after all. Plus he majorly fucked over England which gets massive brownie points.

Oh right, I always had it the other way round.

[Lucaspool FC]

Thought the word on the street was that he felt more like a Catalan than Argentine hence why the Argentinian public prefer Maradona?

I think it's more about the best player ever being a level above Messi. Fans love that. 

[deFacto please, you bastards]

In terms of technical ability, I agree, late stage CL is "the highest level".

But as I wrote, I'm talking about highest pressure matches. And if you love your country, like Messi does, nothing comes close to the World Cup knockouts. Front pages and back pages entirely dominated by the tournament. Growing up his friends and family members who weren't into football would have become obsessed for a few weeks every summer. Him and his entire nation would have been consumed by it. It's the kind of pressure that Mertesacker described like this;

"Of course, I was also disappointed when we lost to Italy and were out of the tournament in the semifinal, but more than anything, I was relieved," he says. "I can still remember it as if it were yesterday. All I thought was: It's over, it's over. It's finally over."

He says he wouldn't have been able to handle another match at the time, and it wasn't because of his heel. "I got eaten up by the pressure," he says. "This constant horror scenario of making a mistake that would lead to a goal." He stays silent for a moment. "You also have the fear during other games; you're constantly looking at the scoreboard and counting the minutes. But at the World Cup, that was inhuman."


I don't think anyone can seriously say with a straight face that a proud Argentine like Messi is under as much pressure in any CL match compared to a WC knockout game.

All about opinions though, eh? Fair enough if you think there's more pressure on him in CL games for Barca.

Champions League finals are still high pressure moments, so you can't say that he hides in high pressure moments. that's my point. I didn't say that playing for Argentina in a world cup final, isn't a high pressure moment, my point was that CL finals are still high pressure moments in which he's excelled in them.

Just because it hasn't gotten him the success for Argentina at WC doesn't mean that he hides in high pressure situations. Especially when he is the main reason why Argentina got to the WC final in 2014 to begin with.

My personal opinion is that CL football is the highest level of football.

Your point all together was that World Cup knock out games are high pressure and CL finals aren't. Now had you said there are different levels of high pressure games, then I'd see your point, but that's not what you said.

You dismissed Champions League finals all together as if it's another game.

[Xabi Gerrard]

Your point all together was that World Cup knock out games are high pressure and CL finals aren't. Now had you said there are different levels of high pressure games, then I'd see your point, but that's not what you said.

You dismissed Champions League finals all together as if it's another game.

Now you're just making stuff up, telling me I said things when I said the exact opposite to you. Look.

(If you’re confused, for clarification this doesn’t mean there aren’t also other types of high pressure games, such as late stage CL games, where incidentally his goals/game ratio halves compared to league games).

Late stage CL games are high pressure, as I said to you earlier. Just not the insanely high pressure that WC knockout games are to a football obsessed player who loves his football obsessed country (as Mertesacker so eloquently described above).

[deFacto please, you bastards]

I missed that second quote of yours.

I disagree non the less. To say that he hides in those games, when

1.He's the reason they've qualified to WC to begin with
2.He's one of the reason's they've progressed
3.He's the reason Argentina made it to 3 consecutive international finals, one of them being a World Cup final, the same year he lead his side with the most goals scored and won the golden ball for said World Cup as well.

Each to his own.

[LFC when it suits]

Late stage CL games are high pressure, as I said to you earlier. Just not the insanely high pressure that WC knockout games are to a football obsessed player who loves his football obsessed country (as Mertesacker so eloquently described above).

Generally that is true. However, wasn't it Carra who said that after missing a pen for England in a World Cup shoot out, that he would rather that miss a pen for Liverpool and that losing for Liverpool was always worse than losing for England.

Pressure is the only thing the world cup has on CL footy. Otherwise, CL footy is just another level. Better teams, players, tactics and managers and it's own high level of pressure.

[Xabi Gerrard]

Each to his own.

Yep 

Generally that is true. However, wasn't it Carra who said that after missing a pen for England in a World Cup shoot out, that he would rather that miss a pen for Liverpool and that losing for Liverpool was always worse than losing for England.

Pressure is the only thing the world cup has on CL footy. Otherwise, CL footy is just another level. Better teams, players, tactics and managers and it's own high level of pressure.

He did indeed. I even made a point earlier that many regions on earth don't feel the same bond with the nation that represents them in international football:

If you’re not from an area that hates/is indifferent to the nation that represents you in football (I.e Merseyside, Catalonia, Basque Country, Kurdistan, etc), then yes, I think the greatest pressure a footballer can face is the knockouts of the World Cup.

That definitely applies to Carra. I wouldn't be surprised if Pique ever came out with something like that too. It definitely doesn't apply to Messi though - Rosario is hardcore albiceleste territory.

[LFC when it suits]

Yep 

He did indeed. I even made a point earlier that many regions on earth don't feel the same bond with the nation that represents them in international football:

That definitely applies to Carra. I wouldn't be surprised if Pique ever came out with something like that too. It definitely doesn't apply to Messi though - Rosario is hardcore albiceleste territory.

My mistake. Serves me right for not reading the whole discussion.

[Xxavi]

It's not even about winning the WC, it's about playing like the best player in the world in the highest pressure games. Baggio didn't win in 94 but he looked like the best player in the world that tournament (once McGrath let him out of his pocket). Ditto ZZ in '06. No one could begrudge Messi not winning the WC if he was constantly putting in performances on the biggest stage like he did in the 1st half yesterday. He's not done that before in a WC knockout. Here's hoping he does it against France though.

Fair enough, but great players can be reduced to absolute nothing in a dysfunctional team vs anyone who is playing as a team. I mean, you see that with great many Argentina stars who have done NOTHING without Messi in the qualification campaign. Go check their stats, they were abysmal. So that Argentina team is not a team at all, it has been reducing the likes of Aguero, Higauin, Dybala etc. to nothing. Yet seemingly nobody asks if Aguero and Higuain are Spanish products.

I will add more examples. Pep's Barca played ManU with Tevez, Ronaldo, Rooney (in his pomp) etc., and they were reduced to nothing. Ditto Ronaldo with Real Madrid vs Barca before Barca's decline. Ditto Real Madrid with great names losing to Rafa's Liverpool 4-0 with Dossena scoring. The point is, names alone get you nowhere. And no, in none of these matches used as examples here did any one of stars look like a star. Ronaldo and his teammates looked like pub players.

But I will admit that Messi is not at his peak any more. His peak was 3-4 years ago, probably even more years ago. He is not 2011 Messi, and no, he cannot do the same things he did 7 years ago, i.e., take the ball in midfield, dribble past 4-5 players and score. He lost sharpness, that acceleration he had. Still, evidently, Argentina need him to do something, because without him, they are a wreck.

[Xabi Gerrard]

7 World Cup knockout games.
0 Goals.

[Upinsmoke]

No one else scores that goal Messi scored against Nigeria, nobody brings it down on to there thigh, then foot in the same graceful movement and then finishes on there weaker foot. Show me another example then fair fucks, that's what makes Messi the greatest of all time, he does things no one else is even capable of. There's been some great goals this world cup, Modric's, Pavard, Nacho, Di Maria etc but them types of goals will be scored hundreds of times more in the future.

[Sarge]

7 World Cup knockout games.
0 Goals.

Same as Ronaldo.

[Xabi Gerrard]

No one else scores that goal Messi scored against Nigeria, nobody brings it down on to there thigh, then foot in the same graceful movement and then finishes on there weaker foot. Show me another example then fair fucks, that's what makes Messi the greatest of all time, he does things no one else is even capable of. There's been some great goals this world cup, Modric's, Pavard, Nacho, Di Maria etc but them types of goals will be scored hundreds of times more in the future.

A flash of brilliance in a MASSIVELY underwhelming tournament (again) does not a GOAT make.

Same as Ronaldo.

Not sure why you brought him up but yep, he's clearly not the GOAT either.

[CraigDS]

Great players show their greatness in good sides playing to their strengths and surrounded by good players.

It's why both Ronaldo and Messi do it for their club sides so consistently but don't in their relatively poor national sides. We've seen it ourselves first hand - Gerrard was never his consistent best for England like he was for us.

[Chris~]

A flash of brilliance in a MASSIVELY underwhelming tournament (again) does not a GOAT make.

You're right it's the 10+ seasons of being a phenomenal player. Not 7 games.

[elsewhere]

7 World Cup knockout games.
0 Goals.

wasn't he the best player of the tournament in previous WC and took his team all the way to the final?

[El Lobo]

wasn't he the best player of the tournament in previous WC and took his team all the way to the final?

 

Wishful thinking, at best. If that were true surely he’d have some sort of award to show for it.

[bird_lfc]

are we expecting him to retire now, then? He’s already attempted it once and this Argentina team is going no where fast. Might as well  to prolong his career at Barcelona for a bit

[Gerry Attrick]

He had a pretty good World Cup. He completed 23 dribbles, played 10 key passes, had a couple of assists and scored a ridiculous goal. Everyone knows that he's so good he should be able to drop deep to get Argentina moving and then play sublime through balls to himself. The failure.

[Xabi Gerrard]

You're right it's the 10+ seasons of being a phenomenal player. Not 7 games.

He's had 10+ seasons of being phenomenal playing in a very specific system, surrounded by the very best players in the world all tailoring their game to get the best out of him, playing in a completely lop sided league where 90% of the opposing teams have a tiny tiny fraction of the resources of his team. Scored a goal a game, he's been absolutely brilliant.

Rachet up the pressure and quality of opposition, but keep him in the comfort zone of his system and being surrounded by the worlds best - i.e. put him in the late stages of the CL - and he starts looking slightly less phenomenal, his productivity falls greatly (less than 1 goal in 2 games).

Take him out of his comfort zone of playing in his system and being surrounded by the worlds best players all playing for him, and ratchet up the pressure 20 fold - i.e. put him in the WC knockouts - and he doesn't look special at all. 0 in 7.


He's quite clearly a fucking amazing player - definitely ONE OF the best of all time. But when talking about THE goat you have to look at his career holistically rather than just focusing on one very specific aspect of it when he's in his comfort zone and ignoring when he's not in his comfort zone. I'm not sure if you're old enough to have seen Maradona or Brazilian Ronaldo (especially pre-injury) but they both managed to translate their phenomenal genius into any circumstances for example.

wasn't he the best player of the tournament in previous WC and took his team all the way to the final?

Please please please tell me you don't also think that Giggs was the best player in England in 2008/09 and that Scott Parker was the best player in 2010/11? You know that they weren't......right?

[deFacto please, you bastards]

The greatest player of all time. 10 years consistently performing at a level not seen before, only matched by Ronaldo who also has been consistent just as Messi has for the same time span, head and shoulders above the rest and will continue to do so bar any injury.

Plenty of players have played for Barca with other great players, but no one has been able to put up the numbers he has for the period of years that he has, regardless of their system,their-team-mates and the manager.

2008/2009, 38 goals in 51 appearances
2009/2010, 47 goals in 53 appearances
2010/2011, 53 goals in 55 appearances
2011/2012, 73 goals in 60 appearances
2012/2013, 60 goals in 50 appearances
2013/2014, 41 goals in 46 appearances
2014/2015, 58 goals in 57 appearances
2015/2016, 41 goals in 49 appearances
2016/2017, 54 goals in 52 appearances
2017/2018, 45 goals in 54 appearances

Not even arsed to post the assists, my point is years and years of top level excellence,consistent through out the years, and he's 31, with plenty of football left in him, by the time he is finished, who knows what other records he will break.

[Samie]

International fraud.

[Lush is the best medicine...]

wasn't he the best player of the tournament in previous WC and took his team all the way to the final?

that player of the tournament award he won was widely derided at the time, especially as James from memory was third and he clearly was the best player at that tournament

[robgomm]

7 World Cup knockout games.
0 Goals.

Small margins, eh. 2006 against Mexico he finished off a great move in which Tevez passed to him and Messi slotted the ball home. Tevez was wrongly given offside. Then in 2014 he scored four times in the group stages, which obviously doesn't count compared to the hallowed knockout rounds, and helped drag his pretty average side to a World Cup final.

But yeah, 7 knockout games 0 goals.

[Lush is the best medicine...]

Small margins, eh. 2006 against Mexico he finished off a great move in which Tevez passed to him and Messi slotted the ball home. Tevez was wrongly given offside. Then in 2014 he scored four times in the group stages, which obviously doesn't count compared to the hallowed knockout rounds, and helped drag his pretty average side to a World Cup final.

But yeah, 7 knockout games 0 goals.

wouldnt say the 2014 team was ‘average’, although had fatty scored in the final a chance he scores against benevento messi would have overtaken maradona, fine margins and all that

[robgomm]

Ronaldo, 6 knockouts games is it? 0 goals. Not all he's cracked up to be.

It's almost as if football has moved on from the days of Pele and teams play with ten men behind the ball now.

[Dread Breath]

I thought he had an excellent game yesterday, but I guess the results oriented will think he was a disgrace.

[robgomm]

wouldnt say the 2014 team was ‘average’, although had fatty scored in the final a chance he scores against benevento messi would have overtaken maradona, fine margins and all that

It wasn't a great side but it was a mostly well balanced side. I had them down that year to go a long way because their draw looked good and they had a solid middle but there wasn't great quality there overall. Functional I'd say. In fact, they scored once in 90 minutes in the knockout games and their only other goal came against Switzerland in extra time (from di Maria, set up by Messi).

[Xabi Gerrard]

wouldnt say the 2014 team was ‘average’, although had fatty scored in the final a chance he scores against benevento messi would have overtaken maradona, fine margins and all that

I don't think that's fair on Messi. I personally don't think his greatness depends one iota on whether Higuain scored or whether he picked up the trophy. Messi's place in the pantheon is completely dependent on what Messi does. And in the 7 highest pressure games of his career he's looked a shadow of the Messi in his comfort zone.

No objective person looking at Messi in a WC knockout would say he's playing like the best player in history (using the eye test, the stats test, the productivity test, any which way you want to measure it). It's not because of Higuain that he plays well within himself in those insanely high pressure matches. Winning or not winning in 2014 has nothing to do with it in my opinion. Finishing runner up but having an awesome tournament (like Baggio in 94 or ZZ in 06) would have been enough to prove that he can play to his amazing level when out of his comfort zone.