Topic: Stevie G and Saudi Arabia

[alonsoisared]

What do we think of Milner? Signed for Man City, a state owned club. Automatic c*nt I presume? Someone should've let us know and we could've made a stand against him.

[Andy82lfc]

What do we think of Milner? Signed for Man City, a state owned club. Automatic c*nt I presume? Someone should've let us know and we could've made a stand against him.

Come on now, you know this is not the same thing, as other people commented on other strawmen, it's just conflating the whole situation and is not comparable at all.

If you don't think Hendo has not done anything wrong and you don't mind him going there that's fine, but many others do and it is a very different situation than anyone else because of who Hendo was and the pillar he put himself on, which nobody forced him to do.

Hendo, unlike Milner and others, put himself on a massive grandstand with the LGBT groups from the club and now he has gone to a country that stand against everything they do, proving it was all bollocks. Just having to explain this all again is painful as fuck as I know you know the difference but I don't understand why you and others feel the need to try and make out it is somehow hypocritical to call him out.

[DangerScouse]

Yep, understood on the "state run" difference. Although, and I'm not an expert, my understanding was that the sudden emergence of the Chinese league was basically down to the President wanting them to be the new footballing superpower , and a number of the teams were state owned. I just find it incredible that people are openly calling the likes of Hendo and Gerrard 'c*nts' and all kind of other names, but the same people have Benitez down as untouchable. The Chinese league, Abramovich...

You poor thing. Are you okay?

[ToneLa]

I bow to you sir 

[Dim Glas]

What do we think of Milner? Signed for Man City, a state owned club. Automatic c*nt I presume? Someone should've let us know and we could've made a stand against him.

what is with the ‘we’, it's up to you what you think of these players now and back then.

One thing is for sure - there’s been a LOT of education available to people in the past few years, especially in the past 6/7 years where sportswashing in football has come to the fore in a huge way. Yes of course it was going on before, that’s what Abramovich was doing, he’s the original sportswasher in the PL. But there was a lot of ignorance to it until recent years.

There is zero excuse NOW, to use whataboutery about a player like Milner who signed for Man City about 14 years ago, is quite the look.

I’ve never thought it was a great look for Milner as I don’t for any player who is good enough to have gone to a lot of good clubs, but like I’ve said here more than once, generally players don’t give a shit.  But they really should. And moving to Saudi to become a sportswasher is a massive step even further into the wrong.

[alonsoisared]

Come on now, you know this is not the same thing, as other people commented on other strawmen, it's just conflating the whole situation and is not comparable at all.

If you don't think Hendo has not done anything wrong and you don't mind him going there that's fine, but many others do and it is a very different situation than anyone else because of who Hendo was and the pillar he put himself on, which nobody forced him to do.

Hendo, unlike Milner and others, put himself on a massive grandstand with the LGBT groups from the club and now he has gone to a country that stand against everything they do, proving it was all bollocks. Just having to explain this all again is painful as fuck as I know you know the difference but I don't understand why you and others feel the need to try and make out it is somehow hypocritical to call him out.

How is it not at all comparable? People are saying that Henderson has destroyed his legacy, openly calling him a c*nt, unchallenged, for joining a club owned by the Saudi state as part of their sportswashing project. The only difference between that and signing for City is that for Hendo it means moving away, although you could argue City are doing far more for sportswashing by bringing it to the UK and winning the major european honours.

The only difference remaining is that Henderson has stood up for, and done a lot for, LGBTQ people and charities in the past. I can agree it's not a good look for him, and I would've loved for it to end differently. Ideally with him not signing for a club in a nation trying to sportswash away their image. No arguments from me. What I disagree on is that this decision now wipes out every bit of good he has ever done in the past. It's the danger of speaking out for a cause- your every other move is going to come under extra scrutiny. But he still did a lot of positive things, we have got to know something of the man over the ten years plus he has been at the club and he is clearly a very likable bloke who has often used his position for the greater good, going above and beyond.

I mention Benitez and Milner because I do believe that, as hypocritical as you can accuse Henderson of being, it's equally hypocritical to worship other people who have made very similar career choices while slamming a club legend.

You poor thing. Are you okay?

What makes you think I'm not? Do you have an argument or are you just here to act the nobhead for no reason? What do you disagree with in my post? Do China have major human rights issues or not? Do amnesty international deem them to be involved in sportswashing or not? Did the state wish to use the likes of Benitez and other massive names from European Football to help clean their name and become a footballing superpower or not? Did Benitez know where Abramovich's money came from before he joined them or not?

I'm not even saying I think any less of Rafa. I loved him and I still wish him all the best. He has a history of making somewhat bewildering choices over which jobs to take on. What pissed me off more was him going to Chelsea after being here during a time when the rivalry was at its peak. But again, worshipping the ground he walks on while Henderson becomes fair game is, to me at least, hypocritical.

what is with the ‘we’, it's up to you what you think of these players now and back then.

One thing is for sure - there’s been a LOT of education available to people in the past few years, especially in the past 6/7 years where sportswashing in football has come to the fore in a huge way. Yes of course it was going on before, that’s what Abramovich was doing, he’s the original sportswasher in the PL. But there was a lot of ignorance to it until recent years.

There is zero excuse NOW, to use whataboutery about a player like Milner who signed for Man City about 14 years ago, is quite the look.

I’ve never thought it was a great look for Milner as I don’t for any player who is good enough to have gone to a lot of good clubs, but like I’ve said here more than once, generally players don’t give a shit.  But they really should. And moving to Saudi to become a sportswasher is a massive step even further into the wrong.

I'm saying "we" because the overwhelming response on this forum has been to absolutely slam a club legend and call him all names under the sun, which IMO is too drastic and absolutely wrong. Everybody knew what City's owners were all about the moment they arrived, and Abramovich too for that matter.

[Mister Flip Flop]

What do we think of Milner? Signed for Man City, a state owned club. Automatic c*nt I presume? Someone should've let us know and we could've made a stand against him.

People are a lot more educated now than they where back then, even from the Sterling sale time. Look i want my club to have nothing to do with these sportwashing enterprises but that's just me. Other's could care less and that's their prerogative but make no mistake by partaking in the sale or buying from these regime teams we are part of the problem and until that day LFC the club will not be getting a single cent of my hard earned.

[Aldo1988]

How is it not at all comparable? People are saying that Henderson has destroyed his legacy, openly calling him a c*nt, unchallenged, for joining a club owned by the Saudi state as part of their sportswashing project. The only difference between that and signing for City is that for Hendo it means moving away, although you could argue City are doing far more for sportswashing by bringing it to the UK and winning the major european honours.

The only difference remaining is that Henderson has stood up for, and done a lot for, LGBTQ people and charities in the past. I can agree it's not a good look for him, and I would've loved for it to end differently. Ideally with him not signing for a club in a nation trying to sportswash away their image. No arguments from me. What I disagree on is that this decision now wipes out every bit of good he has ever done in the past. It's the danger of speaking out for a cause- your every other move is going to come under extra scrutiny. But he still did a lot of positive things, we have got to know something of the man over the ten years plus he has been at the club and he is clearly a very likable bloke who has often used his position for the greater good, going above and beyond.

I mention Benitez and Milner because I do believe that, as hypocritical as you can accuse Henderson of being, it's equally hypocritical to worship other people who have made very similar career choices while slamming a club legend.
 What makes you think I'm not? Do you have an argument or are you just here to act the nobhead for no reason? What do you disagree with in my post? Do China have major human rights issues or not? Do amnesty international deem them to be involved in sportswashing or not? Did the state wish to use the likes of Benitez and other massive names from European Football to help clean their name and become a footballing superpower or not? Did Benitez know where Abramovich's money came from before he joined them or not?

I'm not even saying I think any less of Rafa. I loved him and I still wish him all the best. He has a history of making somewhat bewildering choices over which jobs to take on. What pissed me off more was him going to Chelsea after being here during a time when the rivalry was at its peak. But again, worshipping the ground he walks on while Henderson becomes fair game is, to me at least, hypocritical.
 I'm saying "we" because the overwhelming response on this forum has been to absolutely slam a club legend and call him all names under the sun, which IMO is too drastic and absolutely wrong. Everybody knew what City's owners were all about the moment they arrived, and Abramovich too for that matter.

Even the director of external affairs at Stonewall aren't calling him a c*nt...

https://www.thisisanfield.com/2023/07/leading-lgbtq-campaigners-speak-out-on-jordan-henderson-transfer/

[demain]

I'm not even saying I think any less of Rafa. I loved him and I still wish him all the best. He has a history of making somewhat bewildering choices over which jobs to take on. What pissed me off more was him going to Chelsea after being here during a time when the rivalry was at its peak. But again, worshipping the ground he walks on while Henderson becomes fair game is, to me at least, hypocritical.
 I'm saying "we" because the overwhelming response on this forum has been to absolutely slam a club legend and call him all names under the sun, which IMO is too drastic and absolutely wrong. Everybody knew what City's owners were all about the moment they arrived, and Abramovich too for that matter.

I didn't mind Rafa taking over at Chelsea, he had been out of work for 18 months and wasn't really getting many calls from how it appeared from the outside. I also didn't mind him signing for Everton, he is a stubborn man and he would have backed himself to rebuild that club. However, I lost a lot of respect for him when he chose to go to China which (however many excuses hypocritical and perhaps ignorant people on here do submit on his behalf) made him no less a greedy and self-centred idiot than the likes of Henderson, Gerrard or Fowler. I lost quite a bit of fondness for him when he made that move, and it's no different for the players that are signing to play for Saudi clubs now.

I honestly feel very uncomfortable when posters here continue to excuse Rafa while eviscerating Henderson and Gerrard, a sad part of me can't get away from the uncomfortable and distasteful suspicion that there's an element of racism involved when people are criticising the Saudi regime, whereas they don't seem to have the same distaste for the laws, for example, in Singapore (where a woman was executed this week). In fact there were a few cheering on rumours of GIC investing a stake in the club. I know the same lot will jump on this post, but I can't help stating this.

[Ray K]

Sadio Mane is closing in on a move to Saudi Pro League side Al Nassr.

The Athletic reported earlier this month that the former Liverpool forward was in talks to join Al Nassr, who have already signed Cristiano Ronaldo, Marcelo Brozovic, Seko Fofana and Alex Telles over the last year.

Bayern Munich have now released Mane, 31, from his duties with the rest of the team as he completes his move to the Middle East nation.

- The Athletic

[jillcwhomever]

I didn't mind Rafa taking over at Chelsea, he had been out of work for 18 months and wasn't really getting many calls from how it appeared from the outside. I also didn't mind him signing for Everton, he is a stubborn man and he would have backed himself to rebuild that club. However, I lost a lot of respect for him when he chose to go to China which (however many excuses hypocritical and perhaps ignorant people on here do submit on his behalf) made him no less a greedy and self-centred idiot than the likes of Henderson, Gerrard or Fowler. I lost quite a bit of fondness for him when he made that move, and it's no different for the players that are signing to play for Saudi clubs now.

I honestly feel very uncomfortable when posters here continue to excuse Rafa while eviscerating Henderson and Gerrard, a sad part of me can't get away from the uncomfortable and distasteful suspicion that there's an element of racism involved when people are criticising the Saudi regime, whereas they don't seem to have the same distaste for the laws, for example, in Singapore (where a woman was executed this week). In fact there were a few cheering on rumours of GIC investing a stake in the club. I know the same lot will jump on this post, but I can't help stating this.

Will you stop with this racism crap please? People have always made it clear its about those in charge of the state ie the royal family and not ordinary Arabs. I really feel when people like you say this you are trying to cloud everything. It's what people do when they don't want to confront the issue properly. You go on about China, but we are not allowed to mention the Saudi state despite their horrific records on all sorts of human rights.

[oojason]

what is with the ‘we’, it's up to you what you think of these players now and back then.

One thing is for sure - there’s been a LOT of education available to people in the past few years, especially in the past 6/7 years where sportswashing in football has come to the fore in a huge way. Yes of course it was going on before, that’s what Abramovich was doing, he’s the original sportswasher in the PL. But there was a lot of ignorance to it until recent years.

There is zero excuse NOW, to use whataboutery about a player like Milner who signed for Man City about 14 years ago, is quite the look.

I’ve never thought it was a great look for Milner as I don’t for any player who is good enough to have gone to a lot of good clubs, but like I’ve said here more than once, generally players don’t give a shit.  But they really should. And moving to Saudi to become a sportswasher is a massive step even further into the wrong.

Unfortunately, the continued use of whataboutery is all that some on here use to try and deflect criticism away from their idols / favourite players. And will attempt to bring up other Liverpool players/managers and caste them in a same negative light with false equivalencies to try and 'whataboutery' them too - even despite their being obvious disconnects between the likes of Milner & Rafa, or even the club selling Sterling to Man City... with Gerrard, Fowler and Henderson.

Alonsoisared is one of the people on here who continue to does just that, along with hyperbole, almost to the point of re-writing history...  playing down and criticising other players... from mocking fans who thought Sissoko had a good game in 06' FA Cup Final as "try hards" (because it takes away from Gerrard),  onto stating that people disappointed that Gerrard didn't speak up vs G&H "were expecting here people seemed to expect him to single handedly take them down", to posting that players who did spoke up soon moved on (not surprising given the shit show - and the silence from Gerrard & Carragher etc), that "May 25th 2005 is about as close as anyone gets to winning a trophy single handedly.", and questioning why Rafa doesn't get the criticism as Gerrard?, or "I've said it before but IMO it all goes back to the alleged split with Rafa and those who could never hear a bad word about him taking his side over Gerrard's."

Definitely a 'Gerrard was a 'one-man team™' and legend so you can't criticise him - while I do can criticise everyone else using whataboutery to defend him' vibe.

^ www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=330779.msg18951242#msg18951242

Sadly, happy to associate themselves with trolls like Rick too - and like Rick, happy to repeat whataboutery and false equivalency bollocks... (RAWK is a more enjoyable and better place with them being on the ignore list for a while now, along with other posters' who spouted "unwarranted criticism" and "moral high horse" wham in trying to silence others speaking up).



'The Danger Of 'WhatAbout-ism" arguments, by John Oliver' - a 3 minute video:-

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/RS82JNd0YzQ" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/RS82JNd0YzQ</a>

^ or click here to watch - www.youtube.com/v/RS82JNd0YzQ


'Whataboutism explained (explainity® explainer video)' - a 3 minute video - www.youtube.com/watch?v=bG5IzHQ0SMM

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/bG5IzHQ0SMM" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/bG5IzHQ0SMM</a>

^ or click here to watch - www.youtube.com/v/bG5IzHQ0SMM


Dictionary.com definition - with some chat and examples of whatabout-ism, here - www.dictionary.com/e/whataboutisms

There is a more detailed article (and also report) on it, here - www.hrw.org/news/2018/03/01/engaging-whataboutery-instead-protecting-rights


more in: www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=354341.40

[Dim Glas]

Nice work as always Jason!

I would say he is Gerrard FC rather than Liverpool FC then! Not worth engaging with in that case.

[Terry de Niro]

I honestly feel very uncomfortable when posters here continue to excuse Rafa while eviscerating Henderson and Gerrard, a sad part of me can't get away from the uncomfortable and distasteful suspicion that there's an element of racism involved when people are criticising the Saudi regime, whereas they don't seem to have the same distaste for the laws, for example, in Singapore (where a woman was executed this week). In fact there were a few cheering on rumours of GIC investing a stake in the club. I know the same lot will jump on this post, but I can't help stating this.

Absolute 100% bullshit.

Will stop with this racism crap please? People have always made it clear its about those in charge of the state ie the royal family and not ordinary Arabs. I really feel when people like you say this you are trying to cloud everything. It's what people do when they don't want to confront the issue properly. You go on about China, but we are not allowed to mention Saudi state despite their horrific records on all sorts of human rights.

Spot on.

[ToneLa]

Snip

Look, these governments actually use the same argument

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2019/sep/25/saudi-arabia-accuses-australia-of-racism-in-extraordinary-un-broadside

Wheel it back, pal. Dial it down a touch. And don't have a go at me before you start let's play the ball here. Your argument is invalid

Racism is a tactic they use as defense as an obfuscating tactic - it is to misdirect - it does not solve anything, to accuse of racism, look at merit, I say this as the Saudis refuse to, the merit, who benefits...

If that's the best you can do, it's already discredited

I also specifically remember posts here decrying Rafa for China and also Chelsea

You blood money defenders keep using the "everyone / nobody" thing - this is not an absolute

It's touching our club so we notice and react

Don't excuse horrific crimes I reckon
And certainly don't use the arguments of the perpetrator to do so

In law as in life as in here your argument would be thrown out

It isn't rational.

And nothing personal mate

[alonsoisared]

Nice work as always Jason!

I would say he is Gerrard FC rather than Liverpool FC then! Not worth engaging with in that case.

Nice work? I politely disagreed with him a couple of weeks ago and again today so I'm best put on the ignore list. Attack the man not the argument, standard. I'm "Gerrard FC"...are we 10 year olds here or what? I'll defend most of our club legends when I feel they deserve defending, hence why I feel it's disgusting that I keep reading that Jordan Henderson and Steven Gerrard are c*nts and nobody gets pulled up for it.

Jason, you can't hide behind the word whataboutery every single time you are challenged on your hypocrisy. The only actual point I can see you've made is that people didn't know that human rights in China was bad until after Benitez left? It's no wonder you just ignore the argument instead of trying to put across a viewpoint if that's your stance on it. You're in one thread slamming Henderson for moving to a country with an appalling human rights record for money, while opening another thread wishing all the best to a man who moved to a country with an appalling human rights record for money.

[oojason]

a sad part of me can't get away from the uncomfortable and distasteful suspicion that there's an element of racism involved when people are criticising the Saudi regime, whereas they don't seem to have the same distaste for the laws, for example, in Singapore (where a woman was executed this week).

Well, like others... I think that's rubbish, mate. However, I would remind you that although most general football forums are in English... a number of posters critical of the Saudi and Qatar regimes are not just 'Westerners' with some sort of racist agenda against Qatar, Saudi, Arabs, the Gulf or Islam (or anything like that)... but people from Nepal, India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, the Philippines and African countries who have first hand knowledge, experience and have suffered whilst working for such regimes. Also, along with their friends , families, countrymen (and women) etc.

The PR playbook for the 2022 Qatari World Cup was to accuse those criticising Qatar of racism... "the West did this", you are "Islamophobic", "Western Colonialism", "Western values" the "US and allies...", or "the UK did this... " and it backfired spectacularly when those criticising pointed out they were from these counties listed above - or from Qatari exiles themselves.

Or the many people from South America, and Central America, Oceania, and Asia, also critical of Qatar too.

And other muslins criticising the treatment of others by those in charge of Qatar (and now Saudi).

Not to mention a number of people actually from the US, UK, and Europe pointing out the whataboutery of the Qatari defenders - to which there was little effective comeback from the PR companies and pro-Qatar 'fans'.


Those expensive PR firms (hello Portland) were not bafflingly unprepared for that - had no prepared 'plan B' or fallback - and looked like the highly overpriced, self-important, arrogant idiots they are. A quick look in the various Sportwashing threads, and the 2020 Qatar World Cup threads on here demonstrate this throughout, as well as reddits, and other social media platforms. Even the PR-organised belated block 'downvoting' of anyone who spoke out against Qatar only really served to magnify what was going on.


So no, there is likely far less perceived 'racism' than you may believe there to be... when you see others speaking out online vs Saudi and Qatar etc.

[ToneLa]

Nice work? I politely disagreed with him a couple of weeks ago and again today so I'm best put on the ignore list. Attack the man not the argument, standard. I'm "Gerrard FC"...are we 10 year olds here or what? I'll defend most of our club legends when I feel they deserve defending, hence why I feel it's disgusting that I keep reading that Jordan Henderson and Steven Gerrard are c*nts and nobody gets pulled up for it.

Jason, you can't hide behind the word whataboutery every single time you are challenged on your hypocrisy. The only actual point I can see you've made is that people didn't know that human rights in China was bad until after Benitez left? It's no wonder you just ignore the argument instead of trying to put across a viewpoint if that's your stance on it. You're in one thread slamming Henderson for moving to a country with an appalling human rights record for money, while opening other thread wishing all the best to a man who moved to a country with an appalling human rights record for money.

You missed my reply if you want to address it seeing as you're fired up.

You dropped a clanger top of the page - here you are doing ad homimen

Let's not.

Hindsight mate. Wasn't the same back then. Not much to it. Feels like an argument you found to suit your mood, rather the opposite to be quite honest.

[alonsoisared]

You missed my reply if you want to address it seeing as you're fired up.

You dropped a clanger top of the page - here you are doing ad homimen

Let's not.

Hindsight mate. Wasn't the same back then. Not much to it. Feels like an argument you found to suit your mood, rather the opposite to be quite honest.

Unfortunately I'm not enough of an intellectual to get into a debate with you Tone.

[ToneLa]

Unfortunately I'm not enough of an intellectual to get into a debate with you Tone.

  I'll take the compliment

I have to be serious about this, put it this way, last week I asked the leadership in my job about some potential Saudi Arabia links

I don't mind being wallpaper, see me as jury, I post honestly

It fuckin kills me haha

Carry on.

I... LIKE this being a debate

I can't find it anywhere else. Mainstream press, barely touches the sides. Other clubs? Happy to bend over from my dull light research

But yeah. Thanks for being straight with me mate. If I do post points on this topic I would like them taken seriously.. Just cause not everyone has told their boss their thoughts, it is in my life a wee bit and like it's make a stand or get off the pot

[Son of Spion]

I said this myself.  Messi levels of money without the Messi. I'm all for feeling deserving and entitled to have something better for myself, but I also know it has to be at a level I can psychologically manage. If Henderson doesn't experience some form of imposter syndrome, I can only assume it's because he's too dense to know what it is.

I'd normally agree, but maybe not in these circumstances. Henderson, I'm pretty sure, knows he's not being employed out there for his extraordinary skill. The whole thing is a tinpot league in a footballing wasteland. He's being bought for propaganda/political purposes, not his footballing prowess. I simply can't believe he doesn't know this.

In such circumstances he doesn't have to be like Messi to get Messi money. He's doing his job perfectly as far as his new employers are concerned. If he'd gone to another top league for that kind of money (which, of course would never happen) then I do think the old imposter syndrome would be kicking in.

[DangerScouse]

If Rafa had publicly aligned himself with the Uyghurs and then went to China he would have been roundly castigated.

Like it or not, there has been a much greater focus on human rights in recent years.

Henderson has been pilloried because of how outspoken he has been on the LGBTQ+ rights and many believe his move completely undermines his support and efforts to highlight issues faced by these communities.

Furthermore, the level of the KSA sports washing is unparalleled which has brought heightened scrutiny.

[oojason]

I'd normally agree, but maybe not in these circumstances. Henderson, I'm pretty sure, knows he's not being employed out there for his extraordinary skill. The whole thing is a tinpot league in a footballing wasteland. He's being bought for propaganda/political purposes, not his footballing prowess. I simply can't believe he doesn't know this.

In such circumstances he doesn't have to be like Messi to get Messi money. He's doing his job perfectly as far as his new employers are concerned. If he'd gone to another top league for that kind of money (which, of course would never happen) then I do think the old imposter syndrome would be kicking in.

Even if he somehow didn't believe it before when singing for them... he'd have certainly believed it when he woke up for his first day there... and saw the official announcement video from his new club... sportswashing out multiple images of him wearing the rainbow armband for us as captain:-

https://twitter.com/Ettifaq_EN/status/1684523750966849537 & https://i.imgur.com/F0uKXzC.png




^ likely that's just a sign of things to come - along the continued use of Liverpool imagery in El-Attifaq's official media content:-

www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=354341.msg18970435#msg18970435
 

[alonsoisared]

If Rafa had publicly aligned himself with the Uyghurs and then went to China he would have been roundly castigated.

Like it or not, there has been a much greater focus on human rights in recent years.

Henderson has been pilloried because of how outspoken he has been on the LGBTQ+ rights and many believe his move completely undermines his support and efforts to highlight issues faced by these communities.

Furthermore, the level of the KSA sports washing is unparalleled which has brought heightened scrutiny.

like I said, I don't think it's true that it completely undermines everything he's done. And a couple of LGBTQ groups seem to agree, and have thanked him for all he's done so far. I don't see how it would be better to never bother offering any support at all, and then fucking off to Saudi. He's done more than most.

Again, I agree it's not a good look for him. I'd rather he stayed for another year, or chose a better place to go. But I think the abuse he's getting off our fans is wrong. He served our club superbly, was a fantastic captain, did loads for the community and often went above and beyond in his duties. He did a lot that he didn't have to do. Unfortunately he's now made a choice a lot of people don't agree with, but for me that shouldn't undo all those years.

I also think it's wildly optimistic to presume he can affect things from over there as some have suggested, but then I'd argue that's pretty far from being in a footballer's job description. But I suppose that's another argument...

My wider point is that if people are so black and white on these matters, if anyone who strays from their own moral compasses are fair game for all kinds of abusive posts, have their entire legacies stripped of them, then they are going to have to be extremely consistent with their own takes. Going in so strongly on Henderson but then saying Benitez is fine because we didn't know China had a poor human rights record until 2021 is a bit of a joke, really. I know that's not exactly what you've said but that is the only actual argument from Jason on the matter, other than to put me on ignore...

I'll take the compliment

I have to be serious about this, put it this way, last week I asked the leadership in my job about some potential Saudi Arabia links

I don't mind being wallpaper, see me as jury, I post honestly

It fuckin kills me haha

Carry on.

I... LIKE this being a debate

I can't find it anywhere else. Mainstream press, barely touches the sides. Other clubs? Happy to bend over from my dull light research

But yeah. Thanks for being straight with me mate. If I do post points on this topic I would like them taken seriously.. Just cause not everyone has told their boss their thoughts, it is in my life a wee bit and like it's make a stand or get off the pot

no hard feelings mate

[Red Beret]

I despise Donald Trump and everything the modern Republican Party stands for. I guess that makes me racist towards old white dudes...

[Jwils21]

Even if he somehow didn't believe it before when singing for them... he'd have certainly believed it when he woke up for his first day there... and saw the official announcement video from his new club... sportswashing out multiple images of him wearing the rainbow armband for us as captain:-

https://twitter.com/Ettifaq_EN/status/1684523750966849537 & https://i.imgur.com/F0uKXzC.png




^ likely that's just a sign of things to come - along the continued use of Liverpool imagery in El-Attifaq's official media content:-

www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=354341.msg18970435#msg18970435

The armband thing hasn’t gone unnoticed either.

Those who object to the censoring are making their views known and those in opposition to LGBT are biting back. There is a sea of homophobic bile following the post on every social platform, from those in KSA and beyond. The fact that this is very much on the public stage is opening up dangerous doors of enablement for bigots worldwide, the engagement on a post relating to a world famous footballer will be noticed.

The fact that the previously socially vocal former captain of Liverpool FC is the subject is very hard to take.

[Peabee]

The armband thing hasn’t gone unnoticed either.

Those who object to the censoring are making their views known and those in opposition to LGBT are biting back. There is a sea of homophobic bile following the post on every social platform, from those in KSA and beyond. The fact that this is very much on the public stage is opening up dangerous doors of enablement for bigots worldwide, the engagement on a post relating to a world famous footballer will be noticed.

The fact that the previously socially vocal former captain of Liverpool FC is the subject is very hard to take.

This is why he's a good trophy for the KSA regime. He's now just a pawn in their game.

[classycarra]

snip

Hold up, aren't you pearl clutching about people being hypocrites? What about when you are rude about people because they have a different opinion to you?

The daft c*nt could have saved that if he acted normally like any GK in the world.

Ah that interview with Ferdinand, i was furious. That c*nt with some snide questions was trying to get into his head and unfortunately he got what he wanted with every question, Salah was just too blind to notice. He really should stay away from interviews.

Good decision. This is a carbon copy of that Lovren challenge few years back. I think that c*nt Friend was the referee that night

Quick question, and I don't want to leap to any assumptions like you here, but is it possible that your "aggressive, vulgar and rude behavior and stance" about Rio Ferdinand and Mo Salah's agent have "some sort of racism beneath" it?

[ScouserAtHeart]

You're allowed to criticize one thing without taking the time to criticize everything else similar, just FYI.

[Yorkykopite]

Saudi regime accusing anyone of racism takes the biscuit!

I’d love to see the small print of the contract Henderson has signed. Knowing the paranoid Saudi regime they will have surely inserted a clause preventing him - at great financial cost - from saying anything positive about human rights.

[Yorkykopite]

You're allowed to criticize one thing without taking the time to criticize everything else similar, just FYI.

Yes, the thing about the Whatabout people is that they want to leave every injustice unaddressed. It isn’t a case of “What about X, they’re just as bad, we should oppose them as well”. It’s the opposite. It’s “What about X, they’re just as bad, therefore we should do nothing about anything.”

[Terry de Niro]

Yes, the thing about the Whatabout people is that they want to leave every injustice unaddressed. It isn’t a case of “What about X, they’re just as bad, we should oppose them as well”. It’s the opposite. It’s “What about X, they’re just as bad, therefore we should do nothing about anything.”

In an absolute nutshell.
Every one of them would accept a despot state nation takeover at the drop of a hat, or should I say Head?

[alonsoisared]

I wouldn't, Terry. Liverpool FC is an institution that exists to represent the people of Liverpool and it wouldn't be doing that with Saudi ownership. My belief is that protections should be in place to prevent that happening, whether that's from the government or the Premier League. Fat chance of that of course seeing as our government deals with the Saudis all the time and the FA have welcomed Newcastle's takeover with open arms. That's where fingers should be pointed IMO.

I also believe that it's not Jordan Henderson's job to solve international human rights issues, he achieved and in some cases surpassed any expectations we could have on a Liverpool captain. He's been a very good footballer, a great leader, role model and a fantastic human being. One decision I don't particularly agree with now that he's left changes absolutely nothing of my opinion on his legacy and I hope he can, in some way, use his position to do plenty more good for people going forward. He's certainly done more than I and, I imagine, most people calling him a c*nt on here ever have done.

[Yorkykopite]

I don’t think anyone has said that Henderson ought to “solve international human rights issues”. That would be truly bonkers. His critics would simply like him not to assist the human rights abusers. That really ought to be doable.

[classycarra]

I wouldn't, Terry. Liverpool FC is an institution that exists to represent the people of Liverpool and it wouldn't be doing that with Saudi ownership. My belief is that protections should be in place to prevent that happening, whether that's from the government or the Premier League. Fat chance of that of course seeing as our government deals with the Saudis all the time and the FA have welcomed Newcastle's takeover with open arms. That's where fingers should be pointed IMO.

I also believe that it's not Jordan Henderson's job to solve international human rights issues, he achieved and in some cases surpassed any expectations we could have on a Liverpool captain. He's been a very good footballer, a great leader, role model and a fantastic human being. One decision I don't particularly agree with now that he's left changes absolutely nothing of my opinion on his legacy and I hope he can, in some way, use his position to do plenty more good for people going forward. He's certainly done more than I and, I imagine, most people calling him a c*nt on here ever have done.

First off, I feel like I've read a lot of RAWK's views on this topic and I can honestly say I have no memory of any single person hoping/expecting/demanding Henderson solve human rights issues. I feel like you've (probably accidentally) misinterpreted most of the criticism he's received on here with that.

As for the latter point, I think you'd find yourself looking very wrong if posters on here were half as concerned with their image and how they're perceived (and had the privilege of being able to spend vast fortunes on PR teams, that can do it so effectively) as Jordan Henderson is/was. The absence of campaigns from people on here to big themselves up and drawing attention to some of their more selfless actions doesn't mean actions doing lots of good don't exist.

To be honest, I find your view quite depressing sounding - kind of devoid of hope - and I feel bad for you if that's what you think. That the majority of regular posters on here don't ever do any more good than Henderson on a few occasions using interviews and social media to send some very basic decent messages about the importance of inclusivity in sport. I hope (and expect) you'd be surprised in a good way about the people you're generalising negatively to defend Henderson's cash grab to launder the KSA theocracy's image

[coolbyrne]

He said on his video “Once a Red always a Red” or words to that effect.

He could be in for a rude shock. There’s a bit of trading on stuff like this. Supporters are the ultimate arbiters on who is Red.

Yeah, pretty rich of him to assume he gets to decide whether or not he's always a Red. Arrogance or obtuseness, neither are a good look for him.

[Ravishing Rick Dude]

Hold up, aren't you pearl clutching about people being hypocrites? What about when you are rude about people because they have a different opinion to you?
Quick question, and I don't want to leap to any assumptions like you here, but is it possible that your "aggressive, vulgar and rude behavior and stance" about Rio Ferdinand and Mo Salah's agent have "some sort of racism beneath" it?

You can't be serious.

[classycarra]

You can't be serious.

Don't call me shirley

But more importantly, isn't it interesting that you act incredulous about someone mimicking your behaviour?

[Ma Vie en Rouge]

He's certainly done more than I and, I imagine, most people calling him a c*nt on here ever have done.

So you don't think that saying you will staunchly support the LGBT community and then going to play as a trophy superstar for a nation that executes people for being gay might undermine, somewhat, anything he did for that community?

It so clearly does. Once it becomes clear it was no more than words, all his previous "support" means absolutely nothing, at best, and at worst makes a mockery of the whole thing.

[Ravishing Rick Dude]

Don't call me shirley

But more importantly, isn't it interesting that you act incredulous about someone mimicking your behaviour?

Calling Rio Ferdinand a c*nt and calling Henderson a c*nt, it's not the same.

Hendo is our legend and i wish him good luck and all the best in life.