Topic: Preseason tour summer 2018 - sponsored by Findus (other products are available)

[Carra-ton]

So you’re giving up because of a media report that his highly likely to not be true? Dramatic much.

Should I have given up before?

[CraigDS]

Should I have given up before?

Surely the concept of being a supporter doesn't involve giving up?

[Carra-ton]

Surely the concept of being a supporter doesn't involve giving up?

What if everyone sees that an obvious error is dragging the club to misfortune.

[PoetryInMotion]

What if everyone sees that an obvious error is dragging the club to misfortune.

How informed are these 'everyone' to see an 'obvious' error?

[Trump's tiny tiny hands]

No. He WAS concussed during the final.

No. The test was done after the game. You, nor the doctors, can prove he suffered symptoms during the game. They weren't there. He didn't have a HIA at the time. They KNOW he showed symptoms days AFTER the game in their tests, so you can't say with absolute certainty that his mistakes were 100 per cent due to being concussed during the game.

[El Lobo]

What if everyone sees that an obvious error is dragging the club to misfortune.

Everyone doesn't see that though

[CraigDS]

No. The test was done after the game. You, nor the doctors, can prove he suffered symptoms during the game. They weren't there. He didn't have a HIA at the time. They KNOW he showed symptoms days AFTER the game in their tests, so you can't say with absolute certainty that his mistakes were 100 per cent due to being concussed during the game.

https://www.massgeneral.org/News/newsarticle.aspx?id=6792

After carefully reviewing game film and integrating a detailed history – including his reported present and immediate post-contact subjective symptoms – physical examination and objective metrics, we have concluded that Mr. Karius sustained a concussion during the match May 26, 2018.

Now, unless you're going to tell me you're a medical specialist, and carried out tests on Karius yourself, then I'm gonna go ahead and trust the actual medical specialists who did.

[Carra-ton]

How informed are these 'everyone' to see an 'obvious' error?

When things happen which even shake the confidence of the manager, leading to him turning to reserve keepers. I would say that is a powerful observation of an error.

[Trump's tiny tiny hands]

https://www.massgeneral.org/News/newsarticle.aspx?id=6792

Now, unless you're going to tell me you're a medical specialist, and carried out tests on Karius yourself, then I'm gonna go ahead and trust the actual medical specialists who did.

Which is fine as they themselves are not 100 per cent:

"At the time of our evaluation, Mr. Karius’s principal residual symptoms and objective signs suggested that visual spatial dysfunction existed and likely occurred immediately following the event. Additional symptomatic and objectively noted areas of dysfunction also persisted. It could be possible that such deficits would affect performance."

[sms1986]

Which is fine as they themselves are not 100 per cent:

"At the time of our evaluation, Mr. Karius’s principal residual symptoms and objective signs suggested that visual spatial dysfunction existed and likely occurred immediately following the event. Additional symptomatic and objectively noted areas of dysfunction also persisted. It could be possible that such deficits would affect performance."

"After carefully reviewing game film and integrating a detailed history – including his reported present and immediate post-contact subjective symptoms – physical examination and objective metrics, we have concluded that Mr. Karius sustained a concussion during the match May 26, 2018."

Their actual conclusion was that he did suffer a concussion.

[CraigDS]

Which is fine as they themselves are not 100 per cent:

"At the time of our evaluation, Mr. Karius’s principal residual symptoms and objective signs suggested that visual spatial dysfunction existed and likely occurred immediately following the event. Additional symptomatic and objectively noted areas of dysfunction also persisted. It could be possible that such deficits would affect performance."

I'm not disputing if the concussion caused issues or not, I'm disputing if he actually suffered concussion during the game - which they are certain of (see the quote I've already put up).

[Trump's tiny tiny hands]

"After carefully reviewing game film and integrating a detailed history – including his reported present and immediate post-contact subjective symptoms – physical examination and objective metrics, we have concluded that Mr. Karius sustained a concussion during the match May 26, 2018."

Their actual conclusion was that he did suffer a concussion.

Still the problem proving he suffered symptoms at the time.

[CraigDS]

Still the problem proving he suffered symptoms at the time.

Is this based on any specialist medical knowledge?

[Trump's tiny tiny hands]

Is this based on any specialist medical knowledge?

"reported present and immediate post-contact subjective symptoms – physical examination and objective metrics"



Again, all I'm disputing is this absolute assertion that his mistakes were due to symptoms at the time.

[CraigDS]

Again, all I'm disputing is this absolute assertion that his mistakes were due to symptoms at the time.

And once again, that is NOT what I replied to and you then quoted.

I was replying to someone questioning if he suffered concussion AT ALL during the game. The specialist medical staff are clear that he did.

Now IF this caused him to make mistakes is obviously unknown 100% as it's unprovable.

[El Lobo]

"reported present and immediate post-contact subjective symptoms – physical examination and objective metrics"



Again, all I'm disputing is this absolute assertion that his mistakes were due to symptoms at the time.

That's sort of fair, but isn't that a bit like a drunk driver causing an accident and then his lawyer saying 'my client is just a bad driver, he wasn't impaired by being six times over the limit at all'. We know he was concussed and we know the sort of symptoms a concussion causes. The second error I guess you could argue he's had signs of making previously, but the first one is so bizarre and rare that I really don't see how you could really dispute that there was something going on.

[SlowRap]

So your expectation is that he should shrug off a concussion and not let it affect his judgement.

May I ask, are you concussed, or is the lack of joined up thinking a permanent state?

If Karius was flawless before the final then you'd have a good argument, however he was dumped for the first half of the season, introduced back into the fold with the added luxury of getting to play with VVD ahead of him and our overall midfield had increased stability with the sale of Coutinho.

Here's a question for you; are there better keeper than Karius out there that Liverpool can bring in? For me the two obvious ones are Oblak and Allisson, now we're priced out of Oblak and the trope is that he cannot play in our system - fine, we also seem to be priced out of Allisson, but with 140mil burning a hole in our pockets I don't see that as an excuse when an upgrade is there. However I look at Ederson, I don't know about you but I didn't hear much about him but he took like a duck to water for City; aggressive, controls the area, distribution is out of this world - yes 36mil at the time was a lot but ask any City fan and they're delighted with him, at what 24 he can play there for 10+ years. My question is can our scouts find the next Ederson if we've been out-priced for the two obvious ones.   

[Trump's tiny tiny hands]

And once again, that is NOT what I replied to and you then quoted.

I was replying to someone questioning if he suffered concussion AT ALL during the game. The specialist medical staff are clear that he did.

Now IF this caused him to make mistakes is obviously unknown 100% as it's unprovable.

That is the bit I'm happy leave it at.

[Trump's tiny tiny hands]

That's sort of fair, but isn't that a bit like a drunk driver causing an accident and then his lawyer saying 'my client is just a bad driver, he wasn't impaired by being six times over the limit at all'. We know he was concussed and we know the sort of symptoms a concussion causes. The second error I guess you could argue he's had signs of making previously, but the first one is so bizarre and rare that I really don't see how you could really dispute that there was something going on.

OK. If we move into that area Karius has to shoulder blame in another way because they have made their conclusions based on:

"including his reported present and immediate post-contact subjective symptoms"

Did he know something wasn't right at the time?

"We also note that Mr. Karius has reported significant and steady improvement since the concussive event"

If he is lucid enough to realise something wasn't right and recall that later on, surely he seeks medical attention during the game?

[PhaseOfPlay]

OK. If we move into that area Karius has to shoulder blame in another way because they have made their conclusions based on:

"including his reported present and immediate post-contact subjective symptoms"

Did he know something wasn't right at the time?

"We also note that Mr. Karius has reported significant and steady improvement since the concussive event"

If he is lucid enough to realise something wasn't right and recall that later on, surely he seeks medical attention during the game?

Concussed people generally don't know that they are concussed at the time. They might feel that "something isn't right", but that's not the same as "knowing they are concussed". Their judgment suffers too, to a greater or lesser degree. Look at boxers who get knocked out, come to, and are still throwing punches after the fight is called, because they are not aware that it's all said and done.

[Red Beret]

Are people on here honestly still arguing that Karius would have made some of those CL final mistakes regardless of whether he was concussed or not?

Because if you're trying to say there is a question mark over observed symptoms and his performance then you are basically saying his concussion is irrelevant?

The final was almost two months ago.  Get over it.

[Trump's tiny tiny hands]

Concussed people generally don't know that they are concussed at the time. They might feel that "something isn't right", but that's not the same as "knowing they are concussed". Their judgment suffers too, to a greater or lesser degree. Look at boxers who get knocked out, come to, and are still throwing punches after the fight is called, because they are not aware that it's all said and done.

Probably right and probably more down to a lack of awareness in the game and procedures to safe guard players than Karius looking for help himself.

[Trump's tiny tiny hands]

The final was almost two months ago.  Get over it.

Still effecting the make up of our side though unfortunately 

[Ipcress]

If Karius was flawless before the final then you'd have a good argument, however he was dumped for the first half of the season, introduced back into the fold with the added luxury of getting to play with VVD ahead of him and our overall midfield had increased stability with the sale of Coutinho.

Here's a question for you; are there better keeper than Karius out there that Liverpool can bring in? For me the two obvious ones are Oblak and Allisson, now we're priced out of Oblak and the trope is that he cannot play in our system - fine, we also seem to be priced out of Allisson, but with 140mil burning a hole in our pockets I don't see that as an excuse when an upgrade is there. However I look at Ederson, I don't know about you but I didn't hear much about him but he took like a duck to water for City; aggressive, controls the area, distribution is out of this world - yes 36mil at the time was a lot but ask any City fan and they're delighted with him, at what 24 he can play there for 10+ years. My question is can our scouts find the next Ederson if we've been out-priced for the two obvious ones.

1. No keeper is flawless, De Gea's record in his last four non concussed competitive matches is far worse than Karius'. I still rate De Gea as one of the best goalies.

2. I too would like an upgrade, but I am willing to leave it to Klopp and Edwards to make the call as to who and when. They know who is available and how well they will fit in far better than me, and probably everyone else on this forum.

3. How many points did a non concussed Karius cost us after his reintroduction?

4. My issue is with all the supporters piling on pressure because of what he did while concussed. I do not remember this many people calling for his head before the final.

Edit: 5. If I remember correctly, in the league, Ederson has not done as well statistically as Karius this year.

[SlowRap]

1. No keeper is flawless, De Gea's record in his last four non concussed competitive matches is far worse than Karius'. I still rate De Gea as one of the best goalies.

2. I too would like an upgrade, but I am willing to leave it to Klopp and Edwards to make the call as to who and when. They know who is available and how well they will fit in far better than me, and probably everyone else on this forum.

3. How many points did a non concussed Karius cost us after his reintroduction?

4. My issue is with all the supporters piling on pressure because of what he did while concussed. I do not remember this many people calling for his head before the final.

1. De Gea built up years of goodwill, Karius has 6 months ish

2. Good we agree then, we have no choice but to leave it to Klopp and co. If we go into this season with Ward/Karius/Migs then it's a risk that they don't need to take and at the end of the day Klopp is risking his job.

3. I don't have the data, but I'd suggest our defence was improved with VVD and a more defensive midfield rather than put it majorly down to Karius.

4. I don't know where you watch the match but a lot of fans I'm around were not convinced with him long before the final, the lads on Anfield Wrap aren't and they go to more or less every game. 

[Ipcress]

Probably right and probably more down to a lack of awareness in the game and procedures to safe guard players than Karius looking for help himself.

A number of us have asked The Anfield Wrap if they could do a podcast on concussion to educate us all. It is a whole area that has gone overlooked for years. I believe many players have an early onset of Parkinson's because of repeatedly heading the old heavy footballs in their younger life.

[Mr Mingebag Squid]

1. De Gea built up years of goodwill, Karius has 6 months ish

2. Good we agree then, we have no choice but to leave it to Klopp and co. If we go into this season with Ward/Karius/Migs then it's a risk that they don't need to take and at the end of the day Klopp is risking his job.

3. I don't have the data, but I'd suggest our defence was improved with VVD and a more defensive midfield rather than put it majorly down to Karius.

4. I don't know where you watch the match but a lot of fans I'm around were not convinced with him long before the final, the lads on Anfield Wrap aren't and they go to more or less every game.

Is he? Is he really?

[deFacto please, you bastards]

1. De Gea built up years of goodwill, Karius has 6 months ish

2. Good we agree then, we have no choice but to leave it to Klopp and co. If we go into this season with Ward/Karius/Migs then it's a risk that they don't need to take and at the end of the day Klopp is risking his job.

3. I don't have the data, but I'd suggest our defence was improved with VVD and a more defensive midfield rather than put it majorly down to Karius.

4. I don't know where you watch the match but a lot of fans I'm around were not convinced with him long before the final, the lads on Anfield Wrap aren't and they go to more or less every game.

He's not risking his job.

That's utter nonsense. Thankfully you don't make the decisions

[Ipcress]

1. De Gea built up years of goodwill, Karius has 6 months ish

2. Good we agree then, we have no choice but to leave it to Klopp and co. If we go into this season with Ward/Karius/Migs then it's a risk that they don't need to take and at the end of the day Klopp is risking his job.

3. I don't have the data, but I'd suggest our defence was improved with VVD and a more defensive midfield rather than put it majorly down to Karius.

4. I don't know where you watch the match but a lot of fans I'm around were not convinced with him long before the final, the lads on Anfield Wrap aren't and they go to more or less every game.

1. So if he's making less mistakes than most keepers, why should length of good will make a difference?

2. I heard the same call when Klopp didn't get in a VVD replacement last summer, and didn't get Coutinho replacement in January? Who are these people who are waiting in the wings to call for Klopps head if he makes a mistake? What then, replace him with Gerrard or Alonso and start over? Remember, we got to the Champions League Final and top 4 with Karius and Mignolet, Klopp has strengthened the team.

3. Cool, we'll do even better this year with the same keeper as there will be no bedding in period for VVD, they know each other's game and we'll have him from the start.

4. I'm not either, but pre supporter melt down, 'he will do' was the prevalent thought. Even Gibbo for TAW had long stopped calling him smoke for hands. Now after after a concussed performance, it's apparently Klopp's job is at risk if he selects him.

[DanA]

The concussion to me is irrelevant. What is relevant is his ability to perform in the future and I'm not sure he's mentally tough enough to thrive given what he's going to have to go through in order to come out the other end as Liverpool's no.1 keeper.

[SlowRap]

1. So if he's making less mistakes than most keepers, why should length of good will make a difference?

2. I heard the same call when Klopp didn't get in a VVD replacement last summer, and didn't get Coutinho replacement in January? Who are these people who are waiting in the wings to call for Klopps head if he makes a mistake? What then, replace him with Gerrard or Alonso and start over? Remember, we got to the Champions League Final and top 4 with Karius and Mignolet, Klopp has strengthened the team.

3. Cool, we'll do even better this year with the same keeper as there will be no bedding in period for VVD, they know each other's game and we'll have him from the start.

4. I'm not either, but pre supporter melt down, 'he will do' was the prevalent thought. Even Gibbo for TAW had long stopped calling him smoke for hands. Now after after a concussed performance, it's apparently Klopp's job is at risk if he selects him.

1. Because there's data to suggest he can perform for a length of time longer than 6 months

2. Klopp was 5 points from serious questions being asked off him, he got away with the gamble on the Coutinho risk but who knows where we'd finish/win had we kept Phil/got a replacement.

3. That would make sense had the two pre-season games not happened were Karius looked anything but confident and assertive, the point was made that after he made that mistake his game deteriorated.

4. It's a needless risk, we can get someone better or as good in why not do it? If we can't then we'll settle for waiting again

[El Lobo]

It's a needless risk, we can get someone better or as good in why not do it? If we can't then we'll settle for waiting again

 

What would be the point of getting someone 'as good as'?

[JackWard33]

1. So if he's making less mistakes than most keepers, why should length of good will make a difference?

2. I heard the same call when Klopp didn't get in a VVD replacement last summer, and didn't get Coutinho replacement in January? Who are these people who are waiting in the wings to call for Klopps head if he makes a mistake? What then, replace him with Gerrard or Alonso and start over? Remember, we got to the Champions League Final and top 4 with Karius and Mignolet, Klopp has strengthened the team.

3. Cool, we'll do even better this year with the same keeper as there will be no bedding in period for VVD, they know each other's game and we'll have him from the start.

4. I'm not either, but pre supporter melt down, 'he will do' was the prevalent thought. Even Gibbo for TAW had long stopped calling him smoke for hands. Now after after a concussed performance, it's apparently Klopp's job is at risk if he selects him.

1 - because supporters and management and Karius himself are all human beings. this situation isn't happening in a vacuum .. if he'd made the same mistakes at home vs Watford in a 5-2 win after 3 years of consistent excellence they'd be part of his big spreadsheet instead of what's currently defining him.
Instead it was after 5 months of good performances .. which itself was after a bad period that saw him dropped. Actually I don't think it's reasonable to conclude you can depend on him for a season or that his error rate for the last 5 months would be his error rate for 50 games. Unless management and supporters have seen it in a liverpool shirt they're going to be more skeptical

2 - the situations aren't the same lets be clear on that. this is a unique, unusual, difficult situation without an easy solution
 (and for the record our defensive record in the first half of the season last year was bad so maybe he should have made more changes last summer... and still got VVD .. who knows)

3 - we need a good keeper - don't think there's any argument on that. the question is can Karius be that... right now.. in the real world. If he can then great if he's traumatised by what happened and how he's currently viewed or if the squad doesn't have confidence in him then not great ..... and I'm still not clear if he is or not - most people are assuming he is and the leaking of the Ward stuff kind of lets you know the management think all is not well

[SlowRap]

Is he? Is he really?

Of course it's a result based competition/business, if results suffer/dip changes are made.

[deFacto please, you bastards]

2. Klopp was 5 points from serious questions being asked off him, he got away with the gamble on the Coutinho risk but who knows where we'd finish/win had we kept Phil/got a replacement.

Klopp waas only 5 points off from 5th because he just took this side to a Champions League final, and it was clearly that was the priority in the final run in. Had we gotten eliminated earlier, 5 points woudl have been 10 or 12.

Had we had not finished 4th, there would be no serious questions asked of him as most sane individuals understood the reason why the run in the league was difficult whilst trying to balance a European run in.

The question isn't who knows where we would have finished had Coutinho been here or a replacement was here, the question is where we would have finished had we not progressed as far as we did in the CL and also didn't lose 3 of our midfielders in a space of a month [Can,Lallana again and Ox]

Again, thankfully you're not the one making the decisions.

Anyone seriously questioning this manager at this present time needs their head reevaluated.

[deFacto please, you bastards]

Of course it's a result based competition/business, if results suffer/dip changes are made.

We made the Champions League final. We're currently in our most consistent run of stability in terms of league position since Rafa.

[Dim Glas]

1. Because there's data to suggest he can perform for a length of time longer than 6 months

2. Klopp was 5 points from serious questions being asked off him, he got away with the gamble on the Coutinho risk but who knows where we'd finish/win had we kept Phil/got a replacement.

3. That would make sense had the two pre-season games not happened were Karius looked anything but confident and assertive, the point was made that after he made that mistake his game deteriorated.

4. It's a needless risk, we can get someone better or as good in why not do it? If we can't then we'll settle for waiting again

got away with?  Yeah ok. We had a good season, targets hit, and greatly exceeded considering how well we did in Europe. He got away with nothing.  What a mad statement to make. Sold a player who wanted out and who wasn't going to be the team player he needed to be after January. Didn't panic buy (a good thing surely) and the team played exeptional football for the most part without him.  Coutinho going and Virgil coming in more than redressed the balance anyway.  So again - got away with nothing.   Like the manager got lucky or something? Behave.

[sms1986]

2. Klopp was 5 points from serious questions being asked off him, he got away with the gamble on the Coutinho risk but who knows where we'd finish/win had we kept Phil/got a replacement.

 

[deFacto please, you bastards]

And this is how Rafa was sacked by the other cowboys.

This type of thinking

[SlowRap]

Klopp waas only 5 points off from 5th because he just took this side to a Champions League final, and it was clearly that was the priority in the final run in. Had we gotten eliminated earlier, 5 points woudl have been 10 or 12.

Had we had not finished 4th, there would be no serious questions asked of him as most sane individuals understood the reason why the run in the league was difficult whilst trying to balance a European run in.

The question isn't who knows where we would have finished had Coutinho been here or a replacement was here, the question is where we would have finished had we not progressed as far as we did in the CL and also didn't lose 3 of our midfielders in a space of a month [Can,Lallana again and Ox]

Again, thankfully you're not the one making the decisions.

Anyone seriously questioning this manager at this present time needs their head reevaluated.

You can raise points without having digs, every post you disagree with you throw a dig like you have a chip on your shoulder. You missed out in your evaluation the Collapse of Chlesea who we lost 1-0 to meaning we had to play our strongest team last game of the season as it was still in balance when we should have been way clear, our April/May results in the league were poor, we suffered because we couldn't rotate players - Phil could play in front 3 or midfield 3 and had a goal or assist every 60 minutes he was on the pitch, to say we didn't miss him would be denying reality.